Who is your 2007 NL MVP?

[Mattingly]

Please vote for your 2007 NL MVP candidates.

This will be a public poll, so please remember that your username will be shown along with the candidate's name.

[-Kyle-]

1.Hanley Ramirez, no bias(really).
2.David Wright
3.Miguel Cabrera
4.Barry Bonds
5.Jimmy Rollins

only 5, right?

[Mattingly]

Are all the names you want? I've already got David Wright listed in the poll.

[-Kyle-]

Definitly put those guys in. Chipper Jones, and Utley as well. All have good arguments.

[geezer]

My vote right now is between Fielder and Holliday, Wright has no chance of winning it despite his good season, and Rollins has more chance of getting more votes than Hanley Ramirez playing for a last place team.

[Erik Bedard]

Hanley Ramirez. He's eighth in the NL in OPS+, and first in Power/Speed number... while playing shortstop. Wright is a somewhat close second, and I have Fielder third.

[geezer]

Still no love for Holliday, he is the reason the Rockies are still scaring the Padres and Phillies in the Wild Card Race.

[Westlake]

1. Peavy/Ramirez (I voted for Peavy since he's on the poll)
3. Albert Pujols (same as Prince on offense and way better defensively)
4. Miguel Cabrera
5. Prince Fielder/David Wright

[AutographCollector]

Still no love for Holliday, he is the reason the Rockies are still scaring the Padres and Phillies in the Wild Card Race.

Colorado has a certain rookie ss who IMO has been their teams MVP.
2007 NL MVP goes to... David Wright. :clapping

[Zagi-CRO]

Jack Peavy - nobody else deserve. Peavy is the best MLB pitcher now.


Jake Peavy 18 6 2.36 233 210


I dont know why D.Wright as contender? Any logical explanation?

[Old Sweater]

Matt Holliday, no one is worth more to their team then him.

[-Kyle-]

I think we need Ramirez and Jones on the poll, both are having great years.

[JordanDL3891]

I'd vote for a phillies guy if they make the playoffs.

[Mattingly]

Please list all the names that everyone wants added. No changing of votes, since we'd never get an accurate count that way (people could ask for names to be removed from existing votes).

[redlegsfan21]

I honestly have no clue who should or will win the NL MVP. It's kinda like how I have no clue who will win the NL Wild Card.

[Zagi-CRO]

Please list all the names that everyone wants added. No changing of votes, since we'd never get an accurate count that way (people could ask for names to be removed from existing votes).
My list:
Jake Peavy
Matt Holliday
P.Fielder
R.Howard
Mig.Cabrera
D.Wright
C.Lee
Ch.Jones
A.Dunn
A.Pujols
J.Rollins
C.Utley
H.Ramirez

enough?

[KCGHOST]

David Wright
Chipper Jones
Chase Utley
Hanley Ramirez
Prince Fielder

[CROM]

i think chipper jones definately warrants a lot of consideration this year.

[AznInvasion]

Ok...this one is tough but I'm gonna have to give the nod to Matt Holliday. I've tracked him closely on my fantasy team.

[philkid3]

Very disconcerting to not see Hanley Ramirez even as an option, since he's who I'd vote for.

Chipper definitely needs to be up there, too.

[Walt Zink]

i have to say, if the phillies do win (as of now, it's TIED!!!) the nl east, then i would say rollins. he's had a monster year.....

i have looked at holliday's #'s, and the splits, i just can't see a guy with those distorted splits winning.

otherwise, i still say byrnes. it's gonna be close this year, regardless of who wins.

[philkid3]

Byrnes? You're going to have to explain that one, because I don't understand.

[philkid3]

Personal Ballot

1) Hanley Ramirez
2) Jake Peavy
3) David Wright
4) Albert Pujols
5) Matt Holliday
6) Chipper Jones
7) Chase Utley
8) Jimmy Rollins
9) Miguel Cabrera
10) Prince Fielder

[Zagi-CRO]

NL MVP:

Prince Fielder, Milwaukee Brewers

First runner-up:

Jimmy Rollins, Philadelphia Phillies

Second runner-up:

Matt Holliday, Colorado Rockies

Honorable mention: David Wright, New York Mets; Chase Utley, Philadelphia Phillies; Chipper Jones, Atlanta Braves; Albert Pujols, St. Louis Cardinals; Miguel Cabrera, Florida Marlins; Hanley Ramirez, Florida Marlins; Carlos Lee, Houston Astros.
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=Ag6N8b6XT.WmIulvNw.BZNoRvLYF?slug=ti-mvp092707&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

[Doctor Zizmor]

if the rockies make the playoffs Id vote Matt Holliday, if not, its Prince Fielder then Jimmy Rollins. David Wright should not even be on the list

[philkid3]

I actually don't understand the Prince Fielder argument at all. Could someone please explain it to me?

[philkid3]

if the rockies make the playoffs Id vote David Wright should not even be on the list

Um, based on what?

[Neilios]

It will come down to who makes the playoffs, I think. This is the (if not one of the) most exciting playoff race I've ever seen. With 7 teams battling for 4 spots, all coming down to the final weekend, then the MVP should be on one of the teams that outlasts the rest. It's actually fitting that the MVP race has just as many legitimate contenders as the playoff race.

By the way, I'm still sticking with Holliday, as I have been for the past few weeks. It's funny that all of a sudden there's less people discrediting him and more people standing up for him than the many scoffers in past threads over the past several weeks.

Old Sweater said it best: No one is worth more to their team than Holliday.

1. Holliday
2. Utley
3. Fielder
4. Rollins
5. Ramirez

[Brooklyn]

I realize the full season counts, but what David Wright has done down the stretch has been amazing. It is too bad the rest of the team has fallen apart, but he was the only one hitting for a long time.

Since all-star break:

ba: Wright leads league
OPB: Wright leads league
Slugging: Wright is 6th
OPS: Wright is 3rd
RBI: Wright is 7th
Runs: Wright is 2nd
SB: Wright is 7th

[Doctor Zizmor]

Um, based on what?because his numbers simply arent that special. Dont get me wrong, he's had a fine season, but I can name 15 other guys in the NL who have had better seasons...and Id put Eric Byrnes ahead of him too

[AznInvasion]

I don't get why Holliday would be penalized for what he does at home. Other players don't get penalized for their parks.

[philkid3]

because his numbers simply arent that special. Dont get me wrong, he's had a fine season, but I can name 15 other guys in the NL who have had better seasons...and Id put Eric Byrnes ahead of him too

They're not that special? He's 4th in OBP, 7th in OPS, 2nd in runs created and 4th in EqA, 5th in value over replacement, as a third baseman, and he's got amazing range numbers on defense, helping make up for about par defense by making more outs than he should (alot more, actually).

This man, at the absolute very least, deserves to be on the list. How you can put 15 guys or Eric Byrnes ahead of him confounds me.

[NewYork NewYork]

I realize the full season counts, but what David Wright has done down the stretch has been amazing. It is too bad the rest of the team has fallen apart, but he was the only one hitting for a long time.

Since all-star break:

ba: Wright leads league
OPB: Wright leads league
Slugging: Wright is 6th
OPS: Wright is 3rd
RBI: Wright is 7th
Runs: Wright is 2nd
SB: Wright is 7th


While David Wright has been AMAZING down the stretch and is definetly a strong MVP candidate, Matt Holliday has been almost as good, if not better, down the stretch.


Player G AB R H 2B HR RBI BB SO SB CS BA OBP SLG OPS
Wright 71 259 61 93 21 14 54 52 40 16 4 .359 .464 .602 1.066
Holliday 67 261 61 87 18 21 63 33 59 7 2 .333 .418 .651 1.070


I think these are the top 2 guys, and it's a toss up. I think I'd give Holliday the slight edge because he has put up insane numbers during the Rockies' recent win streak (.457 BA, 1.501 OPS). It's close though.

[psbaseballfan27]

Mine is for Jimmy Rollins. He has talk the talk and walk the walk. He is the main reason why the Phillies will win the N.L. East.

[NewYork NewYork]

Mine is for Jimmy Rollins. He has talk the talk and walk the walk. He is the main reason why the Phillies will win the N.L. East.

Rollins has had a good year, but he could be arguably the 4th best player on that team. Howard, Utley, and even Rowand might be more valuable to the Phillies than Rollins.

[brett]

It currently have it deadlocked between Wright and Ramirez with Holliday at #3. Ramirez' season is too good offensively to overlook. The real question mark is where he rates defensively among shortstops. I don't have any metrics on him, and what I do have suggests he is well below average defensively.

Offensively it is arguably one of the 10 best seasons ever by a shortstop.

[psbaseballfan27]

Rollins has had a good year, but he could be arguably the 4th best player on that team. Howard, Utley, and even Rowand might be more valuable to the Phillies than Rollins.

Howard was off for two months and set the single season strike out record. Chase was out way too long to be considered. Aaron has been good but it seems Jimmy gets clutch hit after hit.

[Westlake]

I don't get why Holliday would be penalized for what he does at home. Other players don't get penalized for their parks.

Yes they do.

[538280]

Why is Hanley Ramirez not on the poll? A 148 OPS+ SS with 51 steals. No player has close to the overall value that he has, IMO. Matt Holliday and Prince Fielder both have about the same OPS+ as Hanley, but they don't add near the same baserunning (Holliday is a very good baserunner, but not like Hanley), or fielding since Hanley is a SS, even if he isn't that great of one. Wright would be a solid choice as well. Wright is almost as good baserunner as Hanley, has a 152 OPS+, and is a very good fielding 3Bman.

[NewEnglandAmazins]

I'm going to wait for the regular season to finish to vote. It's between Holliday and Rollins at this time.

[NewYork NewYork]

The only reason Hanley isn't the guy I selected for MVP is because of the whole "what's the definition of an MVP" thing. If the Marlins were making a run at the playoffs I'd select him, but they aren't. I'd definetly vote him for Most Outstanding Player in the NL. I think he's had the best year out of anyone in the NL this year.

[Erik Bedard]

The vast majority of Hanley's contributions are on offense, correct? And the Marlins have the second-best offense in the NL (behind only the Phillies by one point of OPS+). Why on earth should he be penalized because his team's pitching staff is horrible? I can understand the some parts of the "can't be valuable on a bad team" argument, but this is one instance where it's blatantly wrong.

[Walt Zink]

no offense, but if you take ANY of these offensive players, and put them in coors field for 81 games? they would probably put up the same numbers - if not better - than holliday. there's a reason no rockies player has won it. and considering their loss today? i doubt holliday will win it. rollins is at the moment my choice.

as for byrnes? as i said in another thread, we're talking the '88 kirk gibson of our era. you take him off that team? i can pretty much guarantee they are nowhere near where they are now. anyone that watches this guy play would say the same. he's never going to have another year like this one, and i think he should be rewarded for being a team leader.

[slugger33]

Jimmy Rollins

[rockin500]

soriano! :D


naw seriously, i'd probably put soriano 3rd on my ballot, but rollins would be first on my ballot right now. even if they wouldnt win at this point, he's the MVP IMO.

[plask_stirlac]

Too close... but not for pitchers. Peavy.

They're on the roster, too. They actually have many more outcomes (PAs) than any player, even Rollins' million PAs.

[philkid3]

My bad. Delete me please.

[Old Sweater]

no offense, but if you take ANY of these offensive players, and put them in coors field for 81 games? they would probably put up the same numbers - if not better - than holliday. there's a reason no rockies player has won it. and considering their loss today? i doubt holliday will win it. rollins is at the moment my choice.


That is true and they all would have the same home and away stats.

there's a reason no rockies player has won it.

Forgetting Larry aren't you?

[Old Sweater]

Yes they do.

Not near as much.

[538280]

Not near as much.

If you're looking at it statistically they absolutely do. When you go on BBRef and you look at OPS+ numbers every single players numbers have been adjusted for how much a park inflates offense. Same is true of Baseball Prospectus or Hardball Times or any statistical website's measures.

[AznInvasion]

Yes they do.

They might get criticized slightly, but no where like COORS!

[penneyAA]

Rollins if Phils beat out Mets

[Westlake]

They might get criticized slightly, but no where like COORS!

Thats because since it has been around, there has been no place like coors.

[cardsfanatic]

Good grief. How did Hanley Ramirez not make the poll? He's my pick, so, other.

[AznInvasion]

It has to do with the marlins performance not Hanley's. I love hanley personally.

[AznInvasion]

Thats because since it has been around, there has been no place like coors.

Put Holliday in any park. He's still a great player. The park doesn't hit the HR's for him.

[NYMets523]

If the Mets end up winning the division after making it a very tight race, I think Wright deserves it more than Rollins.

[philkid3]

Put Holliday in any park. He's still a great player.
Yes, he is a great player, and he would be great everywhere. His face-value numbers would just not be quite as good in most other parks.


The park doesn't hit the HR's for him.
No, but it does turn a few hits into home runs that wouldn't be otherwise.

[skyking162]

You don't have to be the best to be good.

You don't have to be bad to be overrated.

You don't have to view everything as black or white.

[Zagi-CRO]

Top Ten:


Matt Holliday 4.66 36 135 119 0.340
Prince Fielder 4.43 50 119 109 0.288
Ryan Howard 4.40 47 136 94 0.268
Miguel Cabrera 4.15 34 119 91 0.320
David Wright 4.09 30 107 113 0.325
Carlos Lee 4.05 32 119 93 0.303
Chipper Jones 4.02 29 102 108 0.337
Albert Pujols 3.99 32 103 99 0.327
Jimmy Rollins 3.96 30 94 139 0.296

Prince Fielder reached 50 Hrs!!
Overall, only three guys deserve the MVP title:
Matt Holliday - Fielder - Howard ?
MATT HOLLIDAY!

[philkid3]

Top Ten:


Matt Holliday 4.66 36 135 119 0.340
Prince Fielder 4.43 50 119 109 0.288
Ryan Howard 4.40 47 136 94 0.268
Miguel Cabrera 4.15 34 119 91 0.320
David Wright 4.09 30 107 113 0.325
Carlos Lee 4.05 32 119 93 0.303
Chipper Jones 4.02 29 102 108 0.337
Albert Pujols 3.99 32 103 99 0.327
Jimmy Rollins 3.96 30 94 139 0.296

Prince Fielder reached 50 Hrs!!
Overall, only three guys deserve the MVP title:
Matt Holliday - Fielder - Howard ?
MATT HOLLIDAY!

Or Wright - Ramirez - Pujols - Peavy. ;)

As far as Howard, I'd say he's third on his own team this year.

[skyking162]

Prince Fielder reached 50 Hrs!!
Overall, only three guys deserve the MVP title:
Matt Holliday - Fielder - Howard ?
MATT HOLLIDAY!

Zagi, I applaud your enthusiasm and willingness to crunch the numbers. But can I make two requests:

1. When you present your numbers and make claims like above, please make it more obvious you're predicting who the writers will pick for the award, not who you think is most deserving.

2. Challenge yourself to make your formulas better. Numbers are good, but a logical approach is extremely important.

That being said, I disagree about Holliday, Howard, and Fielder as MVP choices. Many players had better seasons: Wright, Pujols, Utley, Chipper. Then maybe Holliday. But there are more before Howard and Fielder come into play.

[geezer]

And Holliday can ended up this game leading the National League in:

Batting (.340, he's already leading that category)
RBIs (135, he's only 1 shy of Howard's 136)
Hits (214, he already leads the NL, and will ended up there)
Total Bases (382, he already leads the NL, and will ended up there)
Doubles (50, he already leads the NL, and will ended up there)
Extra Base Hits (91, he already leads the NL, and will ended up there)

And to top it all, he's one win shy of reaching the playoffs, its now Holliday over Rollins for the NL MVP.

[Doctor Zizmor]

this years NL MVP is like the the smartest kid with down syndrome award

[Zagi-CRO]

Zagi, I applaud your enthusiasm and willingness to crunch the numbers. But can I make two requests:

1. When you present your numbers and make claims like above, please make it more obvious you're predicting who the writers will pick for the award, not who you think is most deserving.

2. Challenge yourself to make your formulas better. Numbers are good, but a logical approach is extremely important.

That being said, I disagree about Holliday, Howard, and Fielder as MVP choices. Many players had better seasons: Wright, Pujols, Utley, Chipper. Then maybe Holliday. But there are more before Howard and Fielder come into play.

1. Sorry, but I dont understand you?
It's my opinion, my own speculation.

The writers have their own speculations. Which speculations? I dont know!
We will see.

But if I were the writer, I'l voting for Holliday.
Is it ok?
2. Formula is based on the logical approach? Isn't it?
Maybe I dont understan you? Sorry...:think:

[Zagi-CRO]

That being said, I disagree about Holliday, Howard, and Fielder as MVP choices. Many players had better seasons: Wright, Pujols, Utley, Chipper. Then maybe Holliday. But there are more before Howard and Fielder come into play.

It's so easy to say...'they have had better seasons...'
My question is WHY?

Why Pujols has had better season then Holliday?
It's very, very interesting could you prove it! Logicaly, of course.

Wright?
The Mets lost 5 games in the row, before the end of the season. They lost the title, they lost the playoff... and why 'damned' Wright ...
OK, maybe I dont understand baseball, at all. Maybe.
Maybe is better not to clinch the playoff spot...

[Zagi-CRO]

When we could see summary voting for the NL MVP?
In October?

My Top Five:

1.Matt Holliday
2.Ryan Howard
3.Carlos Lee
4.Jake Peavy
5.Prince Fielder

[sflnyc]

For most of the year, I would have said David Wright. Right now, Jimmy Rollins is getting a lot of love and that's who I would go with. Yes, it may have only been one month over a 6 month season, but how you and your team gets to the finish line counts for something in my book. Can't give it a player who's team pulled off one of the greatest collapses in baseball history (and I'm a Mets and Marlins fan...yes, I wanted the Mets to roll my current home team this weekend - didn't happen).

[Blackout]

where the hell is jimmy rollins?

mr 30-20-30-20

[Blackout]

and why is that chokester david wright on there?

[GiambiJuice]

The fact that the writers gave the award to Ryan Howard last year over Albert Pujols show that they don't have a clue. I think it will be an extremely close vote and I think it will finish like this...

1. Holliday. if the Rockies win the WC. Rollins if they don't
2. Holliday or Rollins depending on the outcome of tonight's playoff game.
3. Wright
4. Fielder
5. Peavy

[DodgerBlue81]

Rollins and Holliday. Right now I say Rollins. He's done everything, power, speed, very good defense at SS, clutch play, and his team made the playoffs.

[MyDogSparty]

My heart says David Wright
My head says Hanley Ramirez
My 8-ball tells me that Matt Holliday will win it followed by Prince Fielder as runner-up.

[truman]

Rollins has pretty numbers, but he did it over 716 ABs! His OBP is not MVP caliber. I was pulling for Philly to overtake NY, but Wright was a more valuable player (70+ points in OBP and 15+ in SLG). And in non-hitting categories that Rollins excels at (SB and fielding), Wright is right there with him.

My ballot:
1) Fielder
2) Wright
3) Pujols
4) Holliday
5) Rollins

[AznInvasion]

Rollins over Holliday is a joke! Mr Ryan Howard and Chase Utley wave hello! I mean great year for Rollins but the Phillies have a lot more talent than the Rockies.

[DodgerBlue81]

Rollins has pretty numbers, but he did it over 716 ABs! His OBP is not MVP caliber. I was pulling for Philly to overtake NY, but Wright was a more valuable player (70+ points in OBP and 15+ in SLG). And in non-hitting categories that Rollins excels at (SB and fielding), Wright is right there with him.

My ballot:
1) Fielder
2) Wright
3) Pujols
4) Holliday
5) Rollins

Some of you with your stats. Watch the games or the highlights. David Wright choked in some big spots grounding into double plays. Rollins was a clutch player, Phillies won the division. No player who played on a team with the biggest choke in regular season history should win an MVP.

[MyDogSparty]

where the hell is jimmy rollins?

mr 30-20-30-20

Correction: 30-20-30-40

[NightHawks2007]

Holliday leads the National League in hitting and 2nd RBI. Top 5 in HR. Without him the Rockies are watching October like they usually do.

[DodgerBlue81]

but the Phillies have a lot more talent than the Rockies.

Huh? The Rockies lineup is pretty damn good

Taveras and Matsui with their speed, and then besides Holliday they have Atkins, Hawpe, Helton, and Tulowitzki

[DodgerBlue81]

Holliday leads the National League in hitting and 2nd RBI. Top 5 in HR. Without him the Rockies are watching October like they usually do.

Yeah and without Rollins the Phillies sure as hell don't win the division

[AznInvasion]

Huh? The Rockies lineup is pretty damn good

Taveras and Matsui with their speed, and then besides Holliday they have Atkins, Hawpe, Helton, and Tulowitzski

True but the Phillies have Rowand, Burrell, Howard, Utley. The rockies have good players but the difference between Holliday and the next best player is large. The phillies have more than 1 really good player.

[AznInvasion]

Yeah and without Rollins the Phillies sure as hell don't win the division

The mets tanked and the braves didn't have the pitching. The division was up for grabs for anyone in contention (The Phillies).

[truman]

Some of you with your stats. Watch the games or the highlights. David Wright choked in some big spots grounding into double plays. Rollins was a clutch player, Phillies won the division. No player who played on a team with the biggest choke in regular season history should win an MVP.

How do you define "clutch"? Because a game that Wright or Rollins 'won' for their teams is worth the same to the team if its the 1st, 50th or 162nd game of the season. Is clutch getting a hit at an opportune time, like RISP?
OPS+ w/RISP Rollins 122, Wright 149
2 outs? Rollins 106, Wright 177
Late and close? Rollins 121, Wright 186
Tied? Rollins 143, Wright 192

How about GIDPs?
late and close: JR 3, DW 1
RISP? JR 4, DW 3

I look at stats because, unlike highlights, they are unedited.

Wright was, hands down, more proficient at getting on base and slugging. He was clearly more effective in certain 'clutch' situations.

As a team, the Mets were 1 game worse than the Phils over the course of 162 games. And because of this 1 game difference Wright is less deserving than Rollins? Sorry, I don't get it.

Look, I was rooting for Philly... i.e. I'm unbiased. And, by the way, I voted for Fielder.

Finally, I don't think "Value" should be defined as how a player is relative to his teammates. I think its better defined as "the cumulative contribution to success that a player brought to the table throughout the year". I look at the whole of production and think, "If I was a GM, which of these seasons would I want most." (hint: not the guy who made more outs than all but 19 guys in history)

[truman]

No player who played on a team with the biggest choke in regular season history should win an MVP.

1951 Roy Campanella says hi. :waving

[MyDogSparty]

How do you define "clutch"? Because a game that Wright or Rollins 'won' for their teams is worth the same to the team if its the 1st, 50th or 162nd game of the season. Is clutch getting a hit at an opportune time, like RISP?

I'm not sure I completely agree with that statement because pressure is mounting as the season progresses. I understand what you're saying, that each win counts as 1 regardless of when it occurs during the year however the pressure to get those needed wins late in the season is different than earlier. I liken it to golfing in a 4 man scramble. Each person on your team gets a crack at knocking in that 10-foot putt but if you're putting clean-up and the first 3 teammates have already missed the putt, you're the last line of defense and the pressure has mounted on you more so than the first 3 putters. If you make the putt it all counts the same on your scorecard but the pressure you faced WAS different, making your performance clutch.

I usually putt first (because I stink at golf) in a scramble. One time I made a long putt (maybe 20 feet) on a hole and there was no need for my teammates to even attempt a followup putt. But sure enough, another player on my team wanted to see if he could make it. After making the meaningless put with no pressure he had the nerve to tell me, "See, I would have made the putt if you didn't." I smiled and said "that's cool" but I know the pressure would have been different if he was putting and he knew his result counted.

So, I guess what I'm saying is that a single to knock in a winning run late in the season with playoff hopes on the line is worth more (or more clutch) to me than the same single to knock in a winning run in the month of May when it comes to voting for the MVP because the pressure faced later in the season is greater.

[truman]

Solid retort, MDS. I agree that the "pressure" to succeed certainly increases through the course of a pennant race. But the "value" of success at a pressure moment is more or less equal to the value of the same success earlier in the season. The degree of difficulty might just be higher.
So the question is, does this higher degree of dificulty translate into a more deserving stake to an MVP award? That is debatable. It's more exciting and memorable, but a bit overrated in production value, IMO.

[philkid3]

Yeah and without Rollins the Phillies sure as hell don't win the division

That's true. Nor would they with out Chase Utley or Ryan Howard. Or, really, a whole lot of other players since it was so close. And the Mets aren't playing into the last game of the season without David Wright. The Padres and Rockies wouldn't be in a one-game playoff without Matt Holliday or Jake Peavy. Rollins is not the only player good enough that his team would not have been here without him.

To say nothing of the fact that Albert Pujols, Hanley Ramirez and Chipper Jones don't lose any value because the team around them sucks.

[geezer]

And Holliday can ended up this game leading the National League in:

Batting (.340, he's already leading that category)
RBIs (135, he's only 1 shy of Howard's 136)
Hits (214, he already leads the NL, and will ended up there)
Total Bases (382, he already leads the NL, and will ended up there)
Doubles (50, he already leads the NL, and will ended up there)
Extra Base Hits (91, he already leads the NL, and will ended up there)

And to top it all, he's one win shy of reaching the playoffs, its now Holliday over Rollins for the NL MVP.

As in the 6th inning, he is 1 for 2, with an RBI, which now ties Ryan Howard for the NL lead, and now has .340, 136 RBIs, 215 hits and 386 Total Bases with a 5-5 tie game in the 6th.

[ElHalo]

Juan Pierre.

[Ytown Tribe fan]

1. David Wright
2. Albert Pujols
3. Eric Byrnes
4. Carlos Beltran
5. Hanley Ramirez
6. Miguel Cabrera
7. Chase Utley
8. Jimmy Rollins
9. Matt Holliday
10. Prince Fielder

[MyDogSparty]

As in the 6th inning, he is 1 for 2, with an RBI, which now ties Ryan Howard for the NL lead, and now has .340, 136 RBIs, 215 hits and 386 Total Bases with a 5-5 tie game in the 6th.

Holliday just made a terrible play in the OF to allow the tying run to score. Colorado radio announcers said it should have been an error charged to him and that it was one of the few plays he misplayed this season.

[truman]

I'm not sure I completely agree with that statement because pressure is mounting as the season progresses. I understand what you're saying, that each win counts as 1 regardless of when it occurs during the year however the pressure to get those needed wins late in the season is different than earlier.
So, I guess what I'm saying is that a single to knock in a winning run late in the season with playoff hopes on the line is worth more (or more clutch) to me than the same single to knock in a winning run in the month of May when it comes to voting for the MVP because the pressure faced later in the season is greater.

OK then... let's look at the SEP splits of a couple MVP candidates:

SEP SPLT PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO GDP SB BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+
ROLLINS 138 131 22 39 4 5 6 18 7 18 1 14 .298 .333 .542 .875 122
WRIGHT 125 108 21 38 9 0 6 20 14 10 5 4 .352 .432 .602 1.034 165
FIELDER 115 90 23 30 3 0 11 22 24 17 1 2 .333 .478 .733 1.212 208
HOLLIDAY116 98 29 36 6 0 12 30 11 20 3 2 .367 .448 .796 1.244 214

Rollins had a very good final month, but not as good as Fielder or Wright (who also had better years). People want to give Rollins the MVP for a great final week of the season. I don't get it.

[geezer]

And Holliday ended up this game leading the National League in:

Batting (.340)
RBIs (137)
Hits (216)
Total Bases (386)
Doubles (50)
Extra Base Hits (92)

And to top it all, he's reached the playoffs, its now Holliday over Rollins for the NL MVP.

[AznInvasion]

And Holliday ended up this game leading the National League in:

Batting (.340)
RBIs (137)
Hits (216)
Total Bases (386)
Doubles (50)
Extra Base Hits (92)

And to top it all, he's reached the playoffs, its now Holliday over Rollins for the NL MVP.

I can't believe it's even a discussion. Holliday all the way!

[MyDogSparty]

Rollins had a very good final month, but not as good as Fielder or Wright (who also had better years). People want to give Rollins the MVP for a great final week of the season. I don't get it.

You make great points and I agree with the above. I was only commenting on the value of doing it down the stretch when the pressure is greater. But I don't think Rollins should be the MVP based on his final game. And you're correct, that other players have had better seasons this year. Like I said above...

My heart says David Wright
My head says Hanley Ramirez
My 8-ball tells me that Matt Holliday will win it followed by Prince Fielder as runner-up.

[MyDogSparty]

And Holliday ended up this game leading the National League in:

Batting (.340)
RBIs (137)
Hits (216)
Total Bases (386)
Doubles (50)
Extra Base Hits (92)

And to top it all, he's reached the playoffs, its now Holliday over Rollins for the NL MVP.

Aren't all those stats you're using as proof of Holliday's great season enhanced because of Coors' field? I mean those are great numbers but to throw them out there like it's a level playing field for all candidates is silly. I'm guessing you know better than that but you chose to ignore it.

[DodgerBlue81]

Rollins had a very good final month, but not as good as Fielder or Wright (who also had better years). People want to give Rollins the MVP for a great final week of the season. I don't get it.

Final week?? He had a great season. And David Wright choked along with the rest of his team

[DodgerBlue81]

Aren't all those stats you're using as proof of Holliday's great season enhanced because of Coors' field?

I'm tired of hearing Coors Field. Coors Field is not the hitters park it used to be in the past. Holliday is a great hitter, period.

[DodgerBlue81]

1951 Roy Campanella says hi. :waving

Mets' choke is worse

[MyDogSparty]

I'm tired of hearing Coors Field. Coors Field is not the hitters park it used to be in the past. Holliday is a great hitter, period.

You may be tired of hearing it but unfortunately for Holliday his home vs road splits are too big to ignore.

[geezer]

But anyway, they made the playoffs and is all thanks to his bat, not Coors Field.

[truman]

Mets' choke is worse

Probably, yes. But it doesn't change the fact that an MVP was awarded to someone who was a member of the biggest choke job to date.
****************
Also, its anybody's perogative to ignore park factors in your MVP pick. The Coors advantage is smaller than its been in past years, but is still significant. The evidence is fairly overwhelming:

Team numbers:
Split G R H 2B 3B HR RBI BA OBP SLG OPS sOPS+
Home 81 469 831 159 19 101 451 .298 .372 .477 .849 119
Away 81 382 746 149 14 68 363 .261 .336 .395 .731 97

Holliday Numbers:
Split G R H 2B 3B HR RBI BA OBP SLG OPS sOPS+
Home 81 66 121 28 4 25 80 .377 .435 .723 1.158 195
Away 76 53 93 22 1 11 55 .301 .374 .485 .860 130
****************
Finally, Rollins had a great year, september, last week and last game of the season. But my argument is that his body of work for the year is not MVP worthy when compared to several other candidates. Primary reasons: a) numbers are inflated by an mlb record number of ABs b) OBP (esp. for leadoff guy) and SLG are pretty weak compared to the competition

[Old Sweater]

Only place the home and away is going to effect the MVP vote is on the boards. Any player that plays here is more then likely to have the big gap in home and away.

The ! game regular season playoff that gives Holliday the RBI crown should help some but for value to a team and not just stats I don't see anyother player that has helped his team more through the season then Matt Holliday.

If Holliday don't get the MVP big deal! The Rockies are in the playoffs!

[Sweet Lou]

While I love Matt Holiday's play, it seems that Colorado has a team where EVERYBODY is contributing. Looking at team stats, some players have only played 90-something games, yet they have a good number of hits and RBI for that time, and it just seems to me that an MVP is someone that is the MOST valuable to HIS team over how valuable SOMEONE ELSE is to THEIR team.
Jimmy Rollins had a monster year. 30 HR for crying out loud. 40 stolen bases, 94 RBI! 94 RBI for a leadoff man? Am I the only one who thinks that's pretty good? Many people say Utley or Howard. But Rollins had to continue his level of play during Howard's very slow start and while Utley was injured. I think Philly was also a team that had many players contributing, but I think Rollins was more valuable to his team than Holliday was to his team.
But, it's a close call, and I'll be happy if either one get it.
Lou

[philkid3]

94 RBI for a leadoff man? Am I the only one who thinks that's pretty good?
Lou

I would say it's because the batters at the bottom of the Phillies' lineup were getting on base alot, which he shouldn't be rewarded for.

Certainly there are many things he should be rewarded for, like getting the extra base hits that scored those runners, but he did not get them on base.

[BoofBonser26]

If the BBWAA race is as wide-open as our poll...yikes!

[Sweet Lou]

I would say it's because the batters at the bottom of the Phillies' lineup were getting on base alot, which he shouldn't be rewarded for.

Certainly there are many things he should be rewarded for, like getting the extra base hits that scored those runners, but he did not get them on base.By your logic, RBI should not be counted then. If that is what you are thinking, then we go by HR, Runs, AVG OBP? Rollins had more than Utley, so Utley is out. He had the same number as Burrel, but Howard led everyone with 47. But Rollins had more runs. Also, his AVG blows away Howard.
So who is the MVP on the Phillies?
I think your logic is flawed. RBI obviously depend on runners being on base, but grounding into double plays brings down one's RBI total, and Rollins only did it 11 times. Utley did it 7 times. Those seem to me to be good numbers.
And don't forget his defense.....

[philkid3]

By your logic, RBI should not be counted then.
Yes, that is correct.

If that is what you are thinking, then we go by HR, Runs, AVG OBP?
Not average or runs, no. But slugging is good. And alot of other things, as well.

Not saying Rollins isnt' a good choice, or better than Utley, just disagreeing with the point you bolded.

[skyking162]

Holliday deserves a penalty for playing in Coors, but not because of his home/road splits. There are many players in neutral parks that have much better numbers at home than on the road.

The reason for the park adjustment in an MVP discussion is because runs scored at Coors are slightly less valuable -- it takes more of them to win a game.

Holliday is definitely a great player. But he's not quite as great as his raw stats imply.

[philkid3]

I'm always entertained by the fact that Helton's OPS is 8th all time, and his OPS+ is something like 63rd.

[truman]

Rollins had more plate appearances this season than any player in history!!

Yet, he reached base less often than Wright, Helton, Pujols, Holliday, Cabrera, Ramirez, Fielder and Reyes. Reaching base is one of the most valuable things a player can do. And frankly, as a leadoff guy, .333 OBP just doesn't cut it for excellence.

Another valuable thing a player can do is move guys around the bases (SLUGGING). Out of the above players, Rollins only outslugged Helton and Reyes. As a leadoff guy (and SS) his .531 SLG was excellent.

If you add SB into TB for purposes of calculating SLG% (essentially counting a single/SB equal to a double, e.g.) Rollins slugged an impressive .588. Guess what, that still falls short of Fielder, Wright, Pujols, Holliday, Cabrera, Ramirez... (guys with higher OBP).

So there are at least 6 MVP candidates with better 'valuable' credentials of OBP/SLG than Rollins.
Well, you say Rollins got his plethora of ABs by gutting it out and being there every day - that's valuable.
Really, how much value does this add?

Well, Fielder's replacement for an additional 102 PAs could go 0 for 102 and Fielder + Replacement would have a higher OPS than Rollins!
Wright's replacement for an additional 98 PAs could go 0 or 98 and Wright + replacement would still have higher OPS than Rollins!
I'm done doing the math, but I would assume that you couldn't find replacements bad enough to bring Pujols', Holliday's, Ramirez's or Cabrera's numbers down to Rollins' .875 OPS.

And frankly, the other candidates' offensive numbers are so far ahead of Rollins that his defense and baserunning don't make up the difference, IMO. I think he jumps the defensive butchers in FLA's infield, but that's it.

But Rollins played so well down the stretch run of a pennant race, you say.

SEP SPLT PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO GDP SB BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+
ROLLINS 138 131 22 39 4 5 6 18 7 18 1 14 .298 .333 .542 .875 122
WRIGHT 125 108 21 38 9 0 6 20 14 10 5 4 .352 .432 .602 1.034 165
FIELDER 115 90 23 30 3 0 11 22 24 17 1 2 .333 .478 .733 1.212 208
HOLLIDAY116 98 29 36 6 0 12 30 11 20 3 2 .367 .448 .796 1.244 214

Rollins' offensive numbers trail significantly during this crucial time of year. In fact, his OPS was the same as his season OPS. The other 3 had better OPS than their season numbers.

But Rollins made the playoffs and MIL and NYM didn't.
If playoffs are the top criteria for your MVP vote, so be it. But I've shown that Prince and Wright gave more production (read: value) to their teams than did Rollins. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that other players on MIL/NYM are at fault for missing the playoffs.

I actually really like Rollins as a player. I'm just approaching the MVP vote as objectively as possible and I don't see how an argument can be made for him. But I am listening...

[Ytown Tribe fan]

The Rockies' offense was 4% betterthan average and their pitching was 10% better than average, adjusted for park effect.

They didn't have one standout pitcher, but two who really made the difference were Jeff Francis and Aaron Cook.

Any Rockies pitcher with an ERA under 4.50 is really doing the job.

[AznInvasion]

Take Holliday away from the Rockies and you might get the D-backs to be honest. A bunch of young guys with a lot of effort and tenacity.

[skyking162]

For what it's worth, the Rockies were a 90-win team by run-differential while the Diamondbacks were a 79-win team by run-differential. Holliday was probably worth around 8 wins to the Rockies, so that's not far off. Of course, people don't realize that Helton and Tulo were worth about 6-7 wins themselves.

[Edgartohof]

I'd personally go for Fielder for MVP, and I do think he will get more support from voters than he is getting here - top 3 at least.

[Ytown Tribe fan]

NL Leaders, OPS in Road Games
(min 250 PA)

1. Albert Pujols - StL - 1.097
2. Chipper Jones - Atl - 1.075
3. Alfonso Soriano - Chi - 1.003
4. Ryan Howard - Phi - .987
5. Lance Berkman - Hou - .970
6. Ryan Braun - Mil - .966
7. Jeremy Hermida - Fla - .949
8. Prince Fielder - Mil .942
9. Russell Martin - LA - .932
10. Adrian Gonzalez - SD .928

[MyDogSparty]

I wonder when MVP and other ballots have to be turned in for tabulation? Hopefully they had to be postmarked (or entered online) no later than the day after the season ended (and no earlier would be nice too).

[philkid3]

I wonder when MVP and other ballots have to be turned in for tabulation? Hopefully they had to be postmarked (or entered online) no later than the day after the season ended (and no earlier would be nice too).

They were turned in on Sunday.



You know, I'm getting tired of they "they wouldn't be here without. . ." argument. That's so terrible, it's true for almost ANY player. Yes, the Phillies wouldn't be here without Jimmy Rollins. But that's the same for Aaron Rowand, Chase Utley, Pat Burrell, Ryan Howard and even Abraham Nunez. They only won the division by one game! Certainly you can make the case they'd've been farther out without Rollins, but you can say "they wouldn't be here" for almost any regular player on the team.

[Erik Bedard]

So Holliday can't have won himself the MVP with his performance Monday night?

[MyDogSparty]

So Holliday can't have won himself the MVP with his performance Monday night?

Are you kidding? That would be awsome if playoff performance could influence voters of the regular season MVP award. :rolleyes:

[geezer]

Are you kidding? That would be awsome if playoff performance could influence voters of the regular season MVP award. :rolleyes:

Monday night was a regular season game technically.

[Atlanta Braves Freak]

Jimmy Rollins. The numbers he put up were of historic proportions and he led his team to the playoffs.

[MyDogSparty]

Monday night was a regular season game technically.

Yep, that's why I'd suggest they're due the day after the regular season.

[AznInvasion]

Jimmy Rollins. The numbers he put up were of historic proportions and he led his team to the playoffs.

Same things could be said about Holliday!:debate:

[philkid3]

Jimmy Rollins. The numbers he put up were of historic proportions and he led his team to the playoffs.

How were Rollins numbers of historic proportions? He didn't even put up the best numbers as a shortstop in his own division.

[Old Sweater]

So many fans are getting away from the criteria of the MVP that it is a joke. That one game playoff between the Rockies and Padres shouldn't have any more bearing on the vote then any other game that Holliday helped the Rockies win for a writer or a fan.

[Brannu]

Jimmy Rollins, hands down. Out of the lead-off spot he has put up one of the greatest seasons we will ever be able to witness. Not only a member of the 20-20-20-20 club .. but the fact that he hit 30 homeruns, with 94 rbi's and added 139 runs is simply remarkable. He carried the Phillies. When Chase was out ... Jimmy. When Ryan was out ... Jimmy.

I wouldn't be mad if Matt Holliday won ... but, what Jimmy Rollins has done in Philadelphia may not be done for a very long time. You have to go back to 1957 for something comparable ... in Willie Mays.

[truman]

You have to go back to 1957 for something comparable ... in Willie Mays.

2007 Curtis Granderson is quite comparable. 23 HRs (7 less), 23 triples (more), 38 doubles (same), 26 SB (less, but 96% success rate vs. 87%), 17 pts higher OBP, 21 pts higher SLG and in 104 less ABs.

[Brannu]

2007 Curtis Granderson is quite comparable. 23 HRs (7 less), 23 triples (more), 38 doubles (same), 26 SB (less, but 96% success rate vs. 87%), 17 pts higher OBP, 21 pts higher SLG and in 104 less ABs.

This is all true ... but, Rollins year was much more Willie Mays like in my opinion, especially looking at homeruns (7 more), rbi's (20 more) and runs scored (18 more). Jimmy had 27 more hits too, second behind Holliday. Those stats alone, which you didn't mention, put Rollins above Granderson - I believe. They both played gold glove defense as well.

However, it is interesting to note that Mays finished 4th in MVP voting that year.

Either way you chop it up ... 20+, 20+, 20+, 20+ - is a very rare feat. To have it done twice in one year is simply amazing.

However, I may just be tired of the power guys always winning the MVP ... what about the little guys? :)

[skyking162]

RARE does not mean IMPORTANT. Did you see that dude flip his bat so that it landed pointing straight up? Damn was the rare. He's the MVP.

Does joining the 20/20/20/20 club mean you're the best? Is each 20 equally helpful? No, we should give more credit to players who hit 20 HRs than steal 20 bases. Thus 0/40/20/20 is better. In fact, 0/80/0/0 would be WAY better.

[Westlake]

So many fans are getting away from the criteria of the MVP that it is a joke. That one game playoff between the Rockies and Padres shouldn't have any more bearing on the vote then any other game that Holliday helped the Rockies win for a writer or a fan.

What is this criteria of the MVP you are talking about? There is none. You vote the way you want to -- there is no definition the writers must go by. Who is the most valuable player? The way you want to go with that is up to individual interpretation... not a foretold criteria.

[brett]

What is this criteria of the MVP you are talking about. There is none. You vote the way you want to -- there is no definition the writers must go by. Who is the most valuable player? The way you want to go with that is up to individual interpretation... not a foretold criteria.

A writer in Denver has stated that he doesn't think a player should be in the hall of fame unless he hit .300 several times in his career.

[bob]

The fact that the writers gave the award to Ryan Howard last year over Albert Pujols show that they don't have a clue.
Which shows me that big numbers in your HR and RBI column is still the best way to win the awards.
I personally would give it to Rollins, but fielder or holliday will probably get it.

[DiMag4Life]

I like Wright and Rollins. They've done it all this year.

[Colorado Express]

I have to give to Holliday...Fielder had my vote until the Rockies won the Wild Card.

[philkid3]

I have to give to Holliday...Fielder had my vote until the Rockies won the Wild Card.

Well, if you subscribe to the guideines of the voters, that shouldn't matter since they had to turn in their ballots before the one-game playoff.

I'm not sure how anyone could give it to Fielder, though. Care to argue?