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View Full Version : ESPN has to stop doing this...


RubeBaker
09-23-2007, 10:16 AM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/features/cy

Oh look, now ESPN has come up with a formula to predict who will win the CY Young award.:rolleyes:

First off, you could make an argument for Brandon Webb, but Jake Peavy seems to be the obvious choice for the NL.

But Sabathia over Beckett? Please. I'm not saying Sabathia shouldn't win, I think he has a fair chance to win. But how can he be leading using a statistical formula? Just look at the numbers:

Wins: Beck 20, CC 18 (Beckett has 40 fewer IP too and 4 fewer games started)
Losses: Beck 6, CC 7
ERA: Beck 3.14, CC 3.19
R/9: Beck 3.3, CC 3.5
K/9: Beck 8.69, CC 7.89
WHIP: Beck 1.13, CC 1.14
Opponent BA: Beck .240, CC .258
Opponent OBP: Beck .282, CC .291

I think you are starting to catch my drift. On paper, Beckett is statistically the better player. Yet, he losing to Sabathia. Furthermore, look at the past results the formula provided:

2006- Johan Santana and Billy Wagner???
2005- Mariano Rivera??? and Chris Carpenter
2004- Johan Santana and Eric Gange???

The ones with the "???" are incorrect. The formula is 3/6. 50%. A coin flip.

Here's the formula:

Cy Young Points (CYP) = ((5*IP/9)-ER) + (SO/12) + (SV*2.5) + Shutouts + ((W*6)-(L*2)) + VB

1) Shutouts are just simply added in Sabathia has one, and Beckett has none. Advantage: CC. So it helps to play in a system where managers let their pitchers pitch, such as with Ozzie Guillen, as opposed to where they play chicken and pull em too soon, such as with Joe Torre.

2) You wanna know why a closer has come out on top every other year? It's that (SV*2.5). A closer with 40 saves will automatically get 100 points, while a starter gets a big fat 0. But there is that ((5*IP/9)-ER)) which I guess is ment to balance it out. But let's say a starter throws 200 innings and gives up 85 runs. Using that part of the formula, the points come out to 26.1. Take a closer who pitches 75 innings, but does what a closer is supposed to do and gives up a solid 12 runs. Thant winds up giving him a score of 29.7. Again, it favors the closer too much. With Beckett and Sabathia it is going to give CC a better adavantage because he has pitched more innings. It will be a bigger number that the runs are subtracted from. Remeber, Beckett allowed fewer runs per 9 than he did.

3) What is that VB? Here it is: Victory Bonus (VB): A 12-point bonus awarded for leading your team to the division champsionship (pro-rated based on the current standings). In other words, we are going to divy up 12 points amng the guys we THINK did the most to help win the division. You could make the old argument of a great pitcher on a bad team yadda yadda yadda... But the basic problem is this, you are inserting subjective material into a formula that is supposed to be objective. The fact that Beckett has stayed so good is one reason why the Sox are even ahead of the Yanks still. They will be a playoff team. Yet, Sabathia gets 12 points because his team wins a lot when he's not on the hill, and Beckett only gets 6. Wipe that garbage alone out, and the points are:

Beckett: 163.6
Sabathia: 159.1

Now that would make much more sense, given the comparisons I showed you.

Like their player ranking formula, this one is another dud. Bad ESPN, bad!

SamtheBravesFan
09-23-2007, 10:21 AM
I directly compare Brandon Webb to John Smoltz, myself. Peavy, to me, is the clear-cut choice for the NL.

insanefishpossay
09-23-2007, 12:01 PM
Yet, Sabathia gets 12 points because his team wins a lot when he's not on the hill, and Beckett only gets 6.

You should be mad at the voters on this one, not ESPN. They're the ones who are too lazy to look past a pitchers win totals.

Neilios
09-23-2007, 12:25 PM
2006 has seven (seven!) relief pitchers in the top 10 in the AL last year. And apparently Joe Borowski is favored over Wang and Verlander (who doesn't even crack the top 10) this year.

Voters look past win totals. It just so happens that [usually] the best pitcher every year happens to be among the wins leaders. Yes, run support helps, but wins are not overrated so long as the rest of their stats are competitive, in which case Beckett and Sabathia both have a case.

skyking162
09-23-2007, 01:54 PM
The Cy Young predictor that ESPN uses was invented by Bill James. He was trying to predict who the writers would pick as the Cy Young winner, not show who should actually win it.

SamtheBravesFan
09-23-2007, 02:21 PM
The Cy Young predictor that ESPN uses was invented by Bill James. He was trying to predict who the writers would pick as the Cy Young winner, not show who should actually win it.

Oh, it is? I remember he outlined that in the James/Neyer Guide to Pitchers. The book is good, but I don't know about the formula.

BoofBonser26
09-23-2007, 07:30 PM
Sabathia would have a much better chance of winning it had the Indians not completely choked in giving him run support this year. Very easily could he be at 21-23 wins right now. (doesn't mean he should win, but.)

ChrisLDuncan
09-23-2007, 07:36 PM
Sabathia would have a much better chance of winning it had the Indians not completely choked in giving him run support this year. Very easily could he be at 21-23 wins right now. (doesn't mean he should win, but.)

He's been better than Beckett IMO, rate stats are similar...but CC's pitched a ton more innings.

rdonahue
09-24-2007, 01:36 AM
2006 has seven (seven!) relief pitchers in the top 10 in the AL last year. And apparently Joe Borowski is favored over Wang and Verlander (who doesn't even crack the top 10) this year.

Voters look past win totals. It just so happens that [usually] the best pitcher every year happens to be among the wins leaders. Yes, run support helps, but wins are not overrated so long as the rest of their stats are competitive, in which case Beckett and Sabathia both have a case.

Borowski is 8th! Too bad he couldn't get a few more saves! It's be a real shame if a guy with a 4.96 ERA didn't win the Cy Young!:laugh

Verlander doesn't deserve it but nobody is dumb enough to say Borowski deserves it more than Verlander. I mean come on. Verlander has a lower ERA and he's a starter! It's not like Borowski is a lefty specialist and a lot of his runs are because he let someone else come in to finish the inning. He, like a starter enters with nobody on and finishes every inning (actually, starters don't always have the second luxury).

In general, if a starter's ERA is lower than a closer's the starter is having a much, much better season!

Westlake
09-24-2007, 02:41 AM
He's been better than Beckett IMO, rate stats are similar...but CC's pitched a ton more innings.

Rate stats aren't completely similiar, as shown above. Beckett leads in pretty much every single one... some by a small amount, some by a fairly larger amount.

How come when it comes to Sox hitters you always give them the Fenway discount, yet there's no bump for Sox pitchers?

Beckett's home ERA: 3.98
Beckett's away ERA: 2.18

Something has got to be said about that. ERA+ sure does... gives Beckett a 145 and Sabathia a 138.

That offsets the innings thing for me and pretty much makes it a wash IMO. That being said, I'd probably still vote for Santana.