The Official Reactionary Watch Thread [Archive]

redoct11

09-18-2007, 07:17 AM

Post any reactionary remarks about the team that you hear from family members, the media etc. that you know are only being said due to a loss or one bad series. I'll start it off.

Please post date and circumstance as well.

9-17-07 after Red Sox loss: Give me Theo's address so I can punch him in the face for putting together such a pathetic team.

Sean Casey

09-18-2007, 07:59 PM

ChrisLDuncan

09-18-2007, 08:44 PM

There is a thread on this board entitled "We are going to lose this lead" and several other posts to that effect. Are you looking for stuff like that? Just people who overreact to one loss?

AutographCollector

09-18-2007, 09:34 PM

My supervisor is from the Martha's Vineyard area. His response to my question (What's up with your sox'?)
His reply: "You're fired."
I hope that he was kidding... :cry:

P.S.
He won't talk baseball anymore. He seems to be one angry soul. I can't blame him.

redoct11

09-18-2007, 09:43 PM

Mattingly

09-18-2007, 10:19 PM

Which players that Theo Epstein has brought aboard recently have soured the fans here on him? Is it the players or how Terry Francona has managed them?

Was Theo Epstein responsible for drafting people like Jon Papelbon, Doug Youkilis, Dustin Pedroia?

What do people think of the JD Drew & Eric Hinske acquisitions?

Mike D.

09-19-2007, 06:32 AM

There's nothing reactionary about that...I've been consistently saying the same thing for over a year now. Ok, maybe not wanting to punch Theo in the face, but I certainly wouldn't be upset if he were shown the door.....for good this time.

Yeah, he should be ashamed of himself, putting together this crappy team that has the best record in baseball and still leads it's division by 2 1/2 games. That's a bigger lead than ANY National League team has, btw. :rolleyes:

I'm sure it's Theo's fault that Lugo and Drew are playing well below their career averages, and that Gagne is having a bad stretch.

DoubleX

09-19-2007, 06:43 AM

Yeah, he should be ashamed of himself, putting together this crappy team that has the best record in baseball and still leads it's division by 2 1/2 games. That's a bigger lead than ANY National League team has, btw. :rolleyes:

I'm sure it's Theo's fault that Lugo and Drew are playing well below their career averages, and that Gagne is having a bad stretch.

I agree with this. The Sox are still in the drivers seat. Plus, I don't really see it as the Sox squandering a huge lead. The Sox huge lead earlier in the season was a mirage of sorts because the Yankees really underachieved - they were behind the Devil Rays at one point in May I believe. And now, the fact that the lead has been cut so much, really has more to do with the Yankees playing out of their minds in the second half than with the Sox losing it. Really, I think this is about where the Sox and the Yankees should be at this point, the Yankees just went a very roundabout way to get there.

I do think though that the Lugo and Drew signings were bad, and thought so in the offseason. I think the Sox invested way too much money in both players. You can't fault Theo for Gagne though, that seemed like a very good deal at the time. You can fault Francona for the way he's used Gagne though, IMO.

maximum jack

09-19-2007, 07:53 AM

You can't fault Theo for Gagne though, that seemed like a very good deal at the time. You can fault Francona for the way he's used Gagne though, IMO.

Actually, I can fault Theo for this. At the time we needed a bat, our bullpen was fine-- I'm still scratching my head over this one. Plus I'm not so sure Tito is in the driver seat as pertains to Gagne :disbelief:

Mike D.

09-19-2007, 08:32 AM

Actually, I can fault Theo for this. At the time we needed a bat, our bullpen was fine-- I'm still scratching my head over this one. Plus I'm not so sure Tito is in the driver seat as pertains to Gagne :disbelief:

See, I can see wanting to add an extra bullpen arm for the stretch, expecially when your two "big guns" are a guy in his first major league season and a pitcher coming off shoulder issues. And the price was right...isn't it better to further strengthen a strong part of the team than to way overpay to get a hitter who probably wouldn't improve the offense any?

And I didn't love the Drew or Lugo signings this off season either, but I bet if they were playing anywhere close to their career norms, Sox fans would be loving those signings. Drew's career average is .283 with a .389 OBP and 15-30 HR. In fact, this off-season, I found Lugo the way more questionable signing...his career avg is .272, exactly the park adjusted league average for his career, and his OBP is .334, actually BELOW the park adjusted league average.

DoubleX

09-19-2007, 08:32 AM

Actually, I can fault Theo for this. At the time we needed a bat, our bullpen was fine-- I'm still scratching my head over this one. Plus I'm not so sure Tito is in the driver seat as pertains to Gagne :disbelief:

I think that's easy to say in hindsight. At the time, Ortiz/Ramirez/Lowell were about as potent a threesome as they come, and I don't think most people thought Manny would sit out most of the last month again.

Also, look at the bullpen in the past few weeks - it's been really shaky. I think it could have been reasonably predicatable that Okajima would tire down the stretch. Gagne was pitching great at the time, and his acquisition would, in theory, allow Okajima to get more rest and thus be more effective. I really don't think people could have predicted that Gagne would blow up like this.

Mike D.

09-19-2007, 08:37 AM

I think that's easy to say in hindsight.

That's the key. Anyone can think they're smarter than the GM with 8 months worth of extra information. I'm thrilled with the current Red Sox regime. They make deals that the vast majority of the time, make sense at the time they are made. Or at least, you can see the logic behind it, even if you don't agree with it.

Compare that to the Lou Gorman and Dan Duquette years...when moves were made seemingly willy-nilly, with little hint that there was any plan behind them.

maximum jack

09-19-2007, 09:16 AM

I think that's easy to say in hindsight. At the time, Ortiz/Ramirez/Lowell were about as potent a threesome as they come, and I don't think most people thought Manny would sit out most of the last month again.

I'm not saying this in hindsight, I mentioned this at the time. The whole lead up to Gagne, I was utterly dismayed why we were concerned with the bullpen.

Also, look at the bullpen in the past few weeks - it's been really shaky. I think it could have been reasonably predicatable that Okajima would tire down the stretch. Gagne was pitching great at the time, and his acquisition would, in theory, allow Okajima to get more rest and thus be more effective. I really don't think people could have predicted that Gagne would blow up like this.

Now who's using hindsight?

redoct11

09-19-2007, 12:42 PM

Why do some people want to clean house with the baseball operations department? And who are you going to replace these guys with that's going to make the ship righter?

Here are the facts since 2002:

3 Postseason Appearances in 5 seasons, soon to be 4 in 6.
1 American League Pennant
1 World Series Championship

Now obviously the lack of division titles is the negative, but I still believe they'll capture their first one this season. So with that said, to all of the anti-Theo everything people who would you bring in that would match this production or exceed it?

Westlake

09-19-2007, 12:58 PM

I haven't been a fan of Theo's for a couple years now. I think his bad moves have outnumbered his good ones, while it was the other way around from 2002-mid 2005.

I wouldn't terribly mind seeing him go, but i dont necessarily want to show him the door either. Same with Francona.

Mike D.

09-19-2007, 01:44 PM

Nothing in this world is perfect, including the Red Sox and their front office.

Thank goodness for this, or else my fellow Red Sox fans would have nothing to complain about...which when you boil it right down, appears to be what they most enjoy. :D

DoubleX

09-19-2007, 01:45 PM

Now who's using hindsight?

I don't think I was using hindsight. I was trying to say that at the time, I think it was reasonably predictable that Okajima could struggle down the stretch given the adjustment to the American game and longer season, and that Gagne was pitching well at the time and I don't think anyone would have predicted that he'd be nearly as bad as he's been. The Sox were playing well and adding an arm the quality of Gagne seemed to really shore up the pen at the time.

maximum jack

09-19-2007, 02:09 PM

I don't think I was using hindsight. I was trying to say that at the time, I think it was reasonably predictable that Okajima could struggle down the stretch given the adjustment to the American game and longer season, and that Gagne was pitching well at the time and I don't think anyone would have predicted that he'd be nearly as bad as he's been. The Sox were playing well and adding an arm the quality of Gagne seemed to really shore up the pen at the time.

That was my lame attempt at humor. I understood what you meant, but thanks for explaining.

Sean Casey

09-19-2007, 04:11 PM

You can't be serious can you?

Very serious. Theo has essentially been given a blank check when it comes to signing free agents, so it's not as though he has had to work with a limited budget. He has made some good moves, such as signing Ortiz, not re-signing Pedro, drafting guys like Youkilis and Pedroia, etc. However, there have also been plenty of very bad moves, including J.D. Drew and Julio Lugo (this is not hindsight - I was very against both of those signings during the off-season), trading Arroyo for Pena, Sanchez for Sauerbeck, etc.

Then of course there's his complete inability to build a bullpen; it seems like every year in mid-season he's picking up cast-offs from Kansas City and other non-contenders in order to fill holes in the pen. (Kyle Snyder, Terry Adams, Mike Remlinger, Chad Harville, Curtis Leskanic, etc.) that doesn't even include off-season signees, including Joel Pineiro, Rudy Seanez, etc. In fact, 2007 was really the first season that the Sox have had an above-average bullpen since Theo was hired, and much of that has to do with Okajima having completely unanticipated success.

There's a lot more that I can go into about Theo, including his hiring of Terry Francona (who I dislike even more than Theo), but I'll stop here at this point.

TonyStarks

09-19-2007, 07:01 PM

Why has Theo been given that Blank check?

Matt1901

09-19-2007, 07:12 PM

Sign me up for this thread. I hope the Red Sox can pull out the A.L. East somehow, but I seriously doubt it at this moment. I didn't think losing 2 of 3 from the Yankees was that bad because Boston still had 4.5 game lead. However, they just lost three games in the standings in three days.

Ultimately, winning the World Series is what matters. I couldn't care less if the Red Sox win the division or not if they go on to win the World Championship. Also, I don't concern myself with momentum after last year's World Series two teams that staggered into the playoffs.

Being the first team to win the A.L. East since 1997 other than the Yankees would have been really nice. It seemed very likely Monday morning. With a magic number of 9, the Red Sox had 12 games remaining, and the Yankees had 13. All that Boston had to do was go 6-6 to force the Yankees to go 11-2.

DickZ

09-20-2007, 05:17 AM

That's the key. Anyone can think they're smarter than the GM with 8 months worth of extra information. I'm thrilled with the current Red Sox regime. They make deals that the vast majority of the time, make sense at the time they are made. Or at least, you can see the logic behind it, even if you don't agree with it.

Compare that to the Lou Gorman and Dan Duquette years...when moves were made seemingly willy-nilly, with little hint that there was any plan behind them.
Well said, Mike D. All those who spout hysteria about the current regime must not have seen the former ones. Nor are they able to tell we are in the uppermost tier of all major league teams, which has not been the case forever.

Sean Casey

09-20-2007, 08:19 AM

Why has Theo been given that Blank check?

The Red Sox have one of the richest owners in the game, so as we have seen with J.D. Drew, Matsuzaka, and other high-priced signings, money is no obstacle when it comes to going after free agents. This is in stark contrast to GMs of teams who have fairly small budgets, so he must be very selective when it comes to making decisions with money.

And I understand that Theo is much better than previous GMs, but just because he's better than what the Sox have had in the past doesn't mean they can't look for someone else. Yes the Red Sox have been one of the best teams in the majors for the past 5 years or so, but that doesn't change the fact that Theo has made many poor decisions that he has gotten away with because of how much money he has to work with. I just think at some point he needs to be held accountable for this.

DickZ

09-20-2007, 08:53 AM

....
And I understand that Theo is much better than previous GMs, but just because he's better than what the Sox have had in the past doesn't mean they can't look for someone else.
Can you - or any of the others calling for a GM replacement - name one candidate who would be a better GM than Theo, and explain why he would be better?

Sean Casey

09-20-2007, 09:37 AM

Can you - or any of the others calling for a GM replacement - name one candidate who would be a better GM than Theo, and explain why he would be better?

I doubt it would happen, but I wouldn't mind seeng Terry Ryan come to Boston. He was able to successfully build an annualy contending team with a fairly small payroll - who knows what he could have done if he had been given as much money to play with as Theo has. Plus, unlike Theo, he didn't inherit star players like Manny and Pedro; he built up the organization through a good farm system and wise trades, including Pierzynski for Nathan/Liriano/Bonser and Jared Camp for Johan Santana

DoubleX

09-20-2007, 09:55 AM

DickZ

09-20-2007, 10:15 AM

I doubt it would happen, but I wouldn't mind seeng Terry Ryan come to Boston. He was able to successfully build an annualy contending team with a fairly small payroll - who knows what he could have done if he had been given as much money to play with as Theo has. Plus, unlike Theo, he didn't inherit star players like Manny and Pedro; he built up the organization through a good farm system and wise trades, including Pierzynski for Nathan/Liriano/Bonser and Jared Camp for Johan Santana
I have to compliment you on having thought the situation through very clearly, Sean. You obviously weren't doing like most people who clamor for heads to roll. They just want to see the axe fall, and don't take the time to think about alternatives.

But in the spirit of gotcha which often pervades this forum, I have to ask was this Ryan guy the same one who let Big Papi get away? All I know is that they were both associated with the Twins before Big Papi came to the Red Sox.

Westlake

09-20-2007, 10:19 AM

But in the spirit of gotcha which often pervades this forum, I have to ask was this Ryan guy the same one who let Big Papi get away? All I know is that they were both associated with the Twins before Big Papi came to the Red Sox.

Who in the world would have known about Papi's future breakout. I can't blame Ryan for that. The way the Twins run their team, Ortiz would have never broken out the way he has. Ortiz also gives a lot of credit to Ron Jackson, who of course would have never gotten his hands on him in Minnesota.

DickZ

09-20-2007, 10:28 AM

Who in the world would have known about Papi's future breakout. I can't blame Ryan for that. The way the Twins run their team, Ortiz would have never broken out the way he has. Ortiz also gives a lot of credit to Ron Jackson, who of course would have never gotten his hands on him in Minnesota.
Of course - how can anybody have a perfect view of the future? And yet we still seem to want that, because we always complain LONG AFTER the fact about players who don't perform as predicted. How would we have known at the beginning that Drew would perform as he has so far?

My only point is that we'll never achieve perfection in matters that involve predicting what hasn't yet happened. No matter what the guy on the hot seat does, everybody with hindsight can find fault with something.

Mike D.

09-20-2007, 10:45 AM

Westlake

09-20-2007, 10:52 AM

I agree, but by the same arguement, can you really credit them for picking up Santana? I mean, do you think they said "Wow, we have to get this guy...he's a future Cy Young winner!"?

No, but they thought he was the best pitcher in the Rule 5 draft. How do you not credit them for that? There's a difference between seeing potential and taking a shot with it.. and letting a guy go in '02 who had been on the big league team at different times since 1997 and hadn't blossomed the way they had hoped, IMO.

redoct11

09-20-2007, 11:10 AM

Westlake

09-20-2007, 11:26 AM

Power and a lot of nothing else. There are tons of DH type players that can hit for that type of power... maybe if he played middle infield that would be worth keeping around.

Mike D.

09-20-2007, 11:47 AM

No, but they thought he was the best pitcher in the Rule 5 draft. How do you not credit them for that? There's a difference between seeing potential and taking a shot with it.. and letting a guy go in '02 who had been on the big league team at different times since 1997 and hadn't blossomed the way they had hoped, IMO.

I'll agree they deserve some credit for seeing potential, just not as much as they might get.

I mean, what if he HADN'T become a good pitcher, but the 2nd pitcher taken in that year's rule V did...would they deserve blame for that? I would say no...they chose the best guy based on what they knew at the time, but I'd imagine in that situation, other fans would blast them for the choice.

DoubleX

09-20-2007, 12:27 PM

Power and a lot of nothing else. There are tons of DH type players that can hit for that type of power... maybe if he played middle infield that would be worth keeping around.

I agree. Ortiz showed some power potential with the Twins, but he showed very little else. He appeared to be a very one dimensional player and he had some injury history to boot. Granted, he's still a one dimensional player, but he's much much better at that one dimension. I don't think anyone after the 2002 season could have predicted that Ortiz would become the beast that he's become at the plate and I think Epstein really struck gold. I don't believe even he would have said in 2003 when he signed Ortiz that he expected him to become anywhere close to the hitter he's become.

redoct11

09-21-2007, 04:44 AM

So who thinks the lead will be back up to 2.5 after tonight?

DickZ

09-21-2007, 04:59 AM

So who thinks the lead will be back up to 2.5 after tonight?
I sure HOPE it will be back up to 2.5, but I stay away from predictions. We could sure use a win regardless of what the Yankees do.

It was interesting to notice that the Mets have actually done worse than we have lately. They had a SEVEN-game lead on September 12 - ours was a mere five-game lead - and now it's down to 1.5 just like ours.

But the moderator will correctly say we're getting off the subject and we should continue this on the 2007 Red Sox Game Thread.

redoct11

09-21-2007, 08:27 AM

I sure HOPE it will be back up to 2.5, but I stay away from predictions. We could sure use a win regardless of what the Yankees do.

It was interesting to notice that the Mets have actually done worse than we have lately. They had a SEVEN-game lead on September 12 - ours was a mere five-game lead - and now it's down to 1.5 just like ours.

But the moderator will correctly say we're getting off the subject and we should continue this on the 2007 Red Sox Game Thread.

My grandfather who's a major Mets fan yelled to me this morning "Your Red Sox are just as good as my Mets. They're both losers." But he's just basing this on the four game losing streak which is fallacious and therefore makes his conclusion sound even more moronic.

Mike D.

09-21-2007, 08:52 AM

My grandfather who's a major Mets fan yelled to me this morning "Your Red Sox are just as good as my Mets. They're both losers." But he's just basing this on the four game losing streak which is fallacious and therefore makes his conclusion sound even more moronic.

Great story about your grandfather.

Best I can tell, there's 3 kinds of Red Sox fans:

40% think that after we lose, we'll never win again, and after we win, we'll never lose again.

40% think that after we lose, we'll never win again, and after we win, we'll lose from now on.

10% understand that it's a long season, and even great teams go through weeks where they lose 5 of 6 or 6 out of 8 or whatever, just like even bad teams sometimes win 4-5 in a row.

:laugh :laugh :laugh

redoct11

09-21-2007, 09:12 AM

Great story about your grandfather.

Best I can tell, there's 3 kinds of Red Sox fans:

40% think that after we lose, we'll never win again, and after we win, we'll never lose again.

40% think that after we lose, we'll never win again, and after we win, we'll lose from now on.

10% understand that it's a long season, and even great teams go through weeks where they lose 5 of 6 or 6 out of 8 or whatever, just like even bad teams sometimes win 4-5 in a row.

:laugh :laugh :laugh

My brother has already extrapolated another Yankees A.L. East crown because a) 2005 and 2006, enough said, b) they're the Yankees, c) what happened post-1918 is irreversible. I question him, therefore I'm a message board denier that can't foresee anything. He's a prophet, I'm not, and because I said this I am playing the "poor me" card which makes me defensive and sentimental, therefore I am foolish.