Smallest Crowds in Major League History?

[marlins739]

"It would have been a great crowd for a spring training game. On a back field. In the rain." - The Palm Beach Post

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/marlins/content/sports/epaper/2007/09/13/a1c_marlins_0913.html

The announced crowd for yesterday's (9/12) Nationals-Marlins game at Dolphin Stadium was 10,121, which is plenty pathetic enough in its own right. The time of the game was moved from 7:05 to 1:05 to accommodate the Jewish holiday Rosh Hashana. However, when the first pitch was thrown by Byung-Hyun Kim, there were 375 people in attendance. It was so quiet that when BK struck out trying to bunt, he cursed loud enough that you could hear it on TV, and the announcers had to apologize on the air. The Marlins ended up winning on a walk-off dribbler in the 12th by Todd Linden.

I'm convinced that 375 people has to be the smallest actual crowd in modern baseball history. Can anybody prove me wrong? What are some other historically tiny baseball crowds?

[PeteU]

"It would have been a great crowd for a spring training game. On a back field. In the rain." - The Palm Beach Post

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/marlins/content/sports/epaper/2007/09/13/a1c_marlins_0913.html

The announced crowd for yesterday's (9/12) Nationals-Marlins game at Dolphin Stadium was 10,121, which is plenty pathetic enough in its own right. The time of the game was moved from 7:05 to 1:05 to accommodate the Jewish holiday Rosh Hashana. However, when the first pitch was thrown by Byung-Hyun Kim, there were 375 people in attendance. It was so quiet that when BK struck out trying to bunt, he cursed loud enough that you could hear it on TV, and the announcers had to apologize on the air. The Marlins ended up winning on a walk-off dribbler in the 12th by Todd Linden.

I'm convinced that 375 people has to be the smallest actual crowd in modern baseball history. Can anybody prove me wrong? What are some other historically tiny baseball crowds?

In 1916, only 23 people showed up for a Philadelphia Phillies game at Shibe Park:

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/stadium/st_shibe.shtml

I'm pretty sure Griffith Stadium had a crowd of about 45 or so in either the depression era or the 1930s.

In 1933, the St. Louis Browns had only 88,133 fans for the entire season. Average attendance was 1,152:

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/teams/baltatte.shtml

In 2003, the Mighty New York Yankees, on their way to a World Series appearance, had a relatively small crowd of 8,848 in a game against the Blue Jays. To be fair, however, it was a make-up game.

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/articles/2003/09/09/yankees_make_noise_before_sparse_crowd?mode=PF

Actually, paid attendance will almost always be less than actual attendance, and in some cases, substantially so. My guess is if the standard bearer for attendance was on actual attendance, several teams would be in 4 figure averages.

[RuthMayBond]

"It would have been a great crowd for a spring training game. On a back field. In the rain." - The Palm Beach Post

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/marlins/content/sports/epaper/2007/09/13/a1c_marlins_0913.html

The announced crowd for yesterday's (9/12) Nationals-Marlins game at Dolphin Stadium was 10,121, which is plenty pathetic enough in its own right. The time of the game was moved from 7:05 to 1:05 to accommodate the Jewish holiday Rosh Hashana. However, when the first pitch was thrown by Byung-Hyun Kim, there were 375 people in attendance. It was so quiet that when BK struck out trying to bunt, he cursed loud enough that you could hear it on TV, and the announcers had to apologize on the air. The Marlins ended up winning on a walk-off dribbler in the 12th by Todd Linden.

I'm convinced that 375 people has to be the smallest actual crowd in modern baseball history. Can anybody prove me wrong? What are some other historically tiny baseball crowds?375, assuming they could count it accurately, and how big was the crowd eventually? Here are alleged figures for other small crowds

9/22/1966 Yankee - 413
9/25/1947 StL Browns - 350
9/9/1902 A's - 172
9/29/1882 Worcester - 25
9/18/1916 A's/Yanks - 23
9/27/1881 Troy/Cleveland - 12
9/28/1882 Worcester - 6
On 9/21/1884 supposedly the Union Association's Wilmington team didn't play because they couldn't afford to pay the other team the minimum fee. There were exactly zero in attendance :crazy
The Cleveland Spiders ENTIRE home attendance for 1899 was 6,088

[RuthMayBond]

On 4/17/1979, Oakland had 653

[Astros]

The Astros had an official attendance of "0" on May 12, 1995 when the team gave away every ticket. It was an effort to get fans back to the ballpark after the strike had ended.

A total of 54,350 tickets were available for free and 30,828 showed up through the turnstiles.

The Astros and Phillies had Doug Drabek and Curt Schilling squaring off against each other on this Friday night with Philadelphia winning 5-2.

[Elvis]

The Astros had an official attendance of "0" on May 12, 1995 when the team gave away every ticket. It was an effort to get fans back to the ballpark after the strike had ended.

A total of 54,350 tickets were available for free and 30,828 showed up through the turnstiles.

The Astros and Phillies had Doug Drabek and Curt Schilling squaring off against each other on this Friday night with Philadelphia winning 5-2.

They should have made this announcement: "Ladies and gentlemen, tonight's paid attendance: zero. The Phillies and Astros don't thank you for coming... because you aren't here."

[RuthMayBond]

The Astros had an official attendance of "0" on May 12, 1995 when the team gave away every ticket.Some would disagree

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/HOU/HOU199505120.shtml

[Solair Wright]

Cleveland Stadium had a few games when the official attendance announced of that game was less than 4,000. Despite it wasn't the best stadium, people refused to attend because of the Cleveland Indians' poor performance during the season, allegedly because of the Curse of Rocky Colavito.

In the modern era, two stadiums had its share of small crowds. Busch Memorial Stadium and Comiskey Park II had pitiful attendance for one game in separate years. Busch had around 1,500 show up against the Pirates on September 14, (?) 1989. Comiskey Park II's official attendance for one game was a pathetic 750 one game in April 1997. I forgot who the opponent was against, but oh well.

[RuthMayBond]

Cleveland Stadium had a few games when the official attendance announced of that game was less than 4,000. I've been to some of those :laugh:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CLE/1985_sched.shtml

I've got to think that Brooklyn's total attendance in 1918 of 83,831 had some clunkers, the Cards' 80,922 in 1935, Oakland's 306,763 in 1979

[Jason R. Maier]

The way I've always understood it is that announced attendance is the number of tickets that have been sold for that day's game . . . . and that actual attendance is usually lower that announced attendance.

Or am I way off base here?

[tearforamariner]

On 4/17/1979, Oakland had 653

My dad was there. He said that, at the start of the game, there were less than 300 people actually at the game.

[RuthMayBond]

My dad was there. He said that, at the start of the game, there were less than 300 people actually at the game.I hope he kept his ticket (it should be a rarity :laugh ) and got a bunch of foul balls

[tearforamariner]

I hope he kept his ticket (it should be a rarity :laugh ) and got a bunch of foul balls

He did keep his ticket. Next time I visit him, I'll see if he'll let me scan it. He didn't collect any foul balls, but he bought from Ebay a few years ago that was signed by Julio Cruz.

[sflnyc]

The way I've always understood it is that announced attendance is the number of tickets that have been sold for that day's game . . . . and that actual attendance is usually lower that announced attendance.

Or am I way off base here?

Yes it is. The American League has counted everybody for eons. For years, the National League would only annouce the paid attendance and not include other ticket holding patrons. When I used to listen to Mets game on the radio, Bob Murphy would occassionally mention both the actual and paid (usually around 2-3000 higher) at the game. One I remember was the Gooden-Tudor pitching match-up in September 1985 which drew 52,616 paid and had a total of 55,269 in the joint.

In 1993, both leagues started using the total ticket count. Interestingly enough, for the post-season games, the the total attendance has always been used from very far back (in both AL + NL parks).

All the major pro sports does the total attendance route. Does anyone think that every NY Knick NBA game drew exactly 19,763 every night as accounced? Every ticket holder always showed up? Yeah, right. I've been to games at MSG with about 1-2,000 or so empty seats and the attendance was always released as 19,763 becasue the game was sold out.

There was a college football game in the late 1990's at Michigan where due to bad weather there was "only about 70,000" in the place with huge sections of empty seats shown on TV. The attendance was still listed as over 100,000 in the paper the next day. And no, those 35,000 missing people weren't all staying inside the stadium under cover because of the weather...they weren't there at all.

[Astros]

Some would disagree

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/HOU/HOU199505120.shtml

Then they disagree with official team information given in the Astros media guides since 1996. They are listing the in-house crowd but major league owners had already decided attendance would be deteremined by tickets sold (not to start this argument again). The total attendance in 1995 for the Astros does not include that number given as the in-house number that actually showed up. It's just like when Cleveland had all their record sellouts at Jacobs Field but it was clearly seen that the ballpark was not full every night. They went on tickets sold like everyone else.

[zengator]

"It would have been a great crowd for a spring training game. On a back field. In the rain." - The Palm Beach Post

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/marlins/content/sports/epaper/2007/09/13/a1c_marlins_0913.html

The announced crowd for yesterday's (9/12) Nationals-Marlins game at Dolphin Stadium was 10,121, which is plenty pathetic enough in its own right. The time of the game was moved from 7:05 to 1:05 to accommodate the Jewish holiday Rosh Hashana. However, when the first pitch was thrown by Byung-Hyun Kim, there were 375 people in attendance. It was so quiet that when BK struck out trying to bunt, he cursed loud enough that you could hear it on TV, and the announcers had to apologize on the air. The Marlins ended up winning on a walk-off dribbler in the 12th by Todd Linden.

I'm convinced that 375 people has to be the smallest actual crowd in modern baseball history. Can anybody prove me wrong? What are some other historically tiny baseball crowds?

The Marlins should move immediately to North Carolina, except they'll probably build a generic HOK stadium with brick and green seats and no local connection which will not compare to classic torn-down baseball cathedrals of the past. Now can we go back to talking exclusively about the Yankees and Mets?

Sincerely,
The Baseball Fever Curmudgeons :atthepc

[Williamsburg2599]

A picture says a thousand words (or in this case, 375):

http://img.coxnewsweb.com/B/06/18/37/image_5837186.jpg

[tearforamariner]

A picture says a thousand words (or in this case, 375):

http://img.coxnewsweb.com/B/06/18/37/image_5837186.jpg

You'd think he'd move up.

[TJH1923]

The Marlins should move immediately to North Carolina, except they'll probably build a generic HOK stadium with brick and green seats and no local connection which will not compare to classic torn-down baseball cathedrals of the past. Now can we go back to talking exclusively about the Yankees and Mets?

Sincerely,
The Baseball Fever Curmudgeons :atthepc

Zen, I am truly hurt. I was purposely staying away from this thread because the other posters were doing such a good job. I do like your idea regarding North Carolina, preferably the Raleigh / Durham area would be ideal. :waving :waving :waving

[nymdan]

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/1350/mds1060912161024x768ib0.jpg

[RuthMayBond]

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/1350/mds1060912161024x768ib0.jpgPic of the year!!!!! :applaud: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[TJH1923]

NBC Nightly News reported on the attendance being less than 200 at the Marlins vs Nationals game. The news report went on to state that when a foul ball went into the stands that no fans ran after it.

I really don't care that both reams have no shot at the playoffs, there was a rain delay or the game time was changed. This is truly pathetic and needs to be addressed by MLB, Marlin ownership or just plain baseball fans. In today's baseball climate, this is a black eye and an embarrassment.

[Williamsburg2599]

NBC Nightly News reported on the attendance being less than 200 at the Marlins vs Nationals game. The news report went on to state that when a foul ball went into the stands that no fans ran after it.

I really don't care that both reams have no shot at the playoffs, there was a rain delay or the game time was changed. This is truly pathetic and needs to be addressed by MLB, Marlin ownership or just plain baseball fans. In today's baseball climate, this is a black eye and an embarrassment.

Judging by that picture, it looks like less than 200. I've seen more people at little league games. :faint:

[RuthMayBond]

NBC Nightly News reported on the attendance being less than 200 at the Marlins vs Nationals game. The news report went on to state that when a foul ball went into the stands that no fans ran after it.

I really don't care that both reams have no shot at the playoffs, there was a rain delay or the game time was changed. This is truly pathetic and needs to be addressed by MLB, Marlin ownership or just plain baseball fans. In today's baseball climate, this is a black eye and an embarrassment.I don't think it's so much the present situation, but I thought the moron owner wanted funding for a new stadium :grouchy :grouchy :grouchy :grouchy

[Sean O]

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/1350/mds1060912161024x768ib0.jpg

My favorite part is how you can individually point out the guy from Williamsburg's post in the left field corner.

A horrible situation for a baseball game, and the sport as a whole. More people went to the Montreal and Florida game at US Cellular Field in '04 than this home game.

A rescheduled game in Boston in April, when it's 20 degrees out and raining gets 35k. This is horrible.

[spiderico]

According to wikipedia, there were about 1200 at YS for the completion of the Pine Tar game:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pine_Tar_Incident

[Knick9]

A picture says a thousand words (or in this case, 375):

http://img.coxnewsweb.com/B/06/18/37/image_5837186.jpg

Man in Left Field Corner: Hey, give me a Bud Light!

ROFL :laugh

Seriously, this is a disgrace. I know the Marlins aren't that good of a team, but even when your team stinks, the attendance has to be respectable. This clearly isn't. Minor League teams would outdraw some Marlins home games for crying out loud! Off to (insert decent sports market here).

[ElHalo]

You'd think he'd move up.

Some places won't let you. I've been at Yankee games where the entire section was empty in front of me (usually in bad weather), and the ushers keep me away when I try to move up.

[marlins739]

Some places won't let you. I've been at Yankee games where the entire section was empty in front of me (usually in bad weather), and the ushers keep me away when I try to move up.
I've never been stopped from moving around at Dolphin Stadium. Why would the ushers stop you from moving? There's no incentive for them to be strict about it when the ushers probably outnumbered the fans anyway. They should have made the tickets free for this game. Although the Marlins single A affiliate Jupiter Hammerheads regularly outdraw yesterday's crowd, I feel a little better about it after seeing some of those other games. Still pretty sad that the Marlins-Expos game at the Cell in 2004 got a bigger crowd than this, but I don't doubt it at all

My idea for a promotion: they should have announced that anybody who was still there when the game ended in the 12th should have gotten free season tickets for next year. Why not?

[Jason R. Maier]

Man in Left Field Corner: Hey, give me a Bud Light!

ROFL :laugh

Seriously, this is a disgrace. I know the Marlins aren't that good of a team, but even when your team stinks, the attendance has to be respectable. This clearly isn't. Minor League teams would outdraw some Marlins home games for crying out loud! Off to (insert decent sports market here).
Yeah I agree it's a disgrace . . . but what the heck can be done about it ?

I also have read that the Marlins are gonna be kicked out of Dolphin Stadium in 2010. What if they can't get a new stadium built by then . . do they move?

And remember a few years ago when MLB discussed contraction . . well think they'd consider contracting the Marlins due to the teams low attendance/any front office issues? or is contraction just not a feasible thing to do?

[ElHalo]

I've never been stopped from moving around at Dolphin Stadium. Why would the ushers stop you from moving?

Two reasons. One, on the off chance that whoever holds the ticket shows up. Two, because they don't want people to buy cheap seats with the assumption that, if the nicer ones are empty, people can just move closer. Also, it doesn't promote proper order and regulation to have people getting into fistfights over the abilityh to move one row closer than their neighbor.

You might think this only applies to situations where there's just scattered empty seats. But I've definitely encountered it when entire sections were empty.

[jimmyjimjimz]

The Astros had an official attendance of "0" on May 12, 1995 when the team gave away every ticket. It was an effort to get fans back to the ballpark after the strike had ended.

A total of 54,350 tickets were available for free and 30,828 showed up through the turnstiles.

The Astros and Phillies had Doug Drabek and Curt Schilling squaring off against each other on this Friday night with Philadelphia winning 5-2.

If people were there, how was the attendance 0?

[Elvis]

If people were there, how was the attendance 0?

Paid attendance. If no one paid, how could the paid attendance be anything else?

[PeteU]

The fanbase for major league baseball is here in South Florida:

http://www.fahs.org/roadtrips/world-series/World%20Series%20Ticket%20032.jpg

http://www.i-feiliao.com/domi/pics/stadium_proplayer.jpg

http://home.pusan.ac.kr/~kebinlee/marlins3.jpg

http://www.eluniversal.com/2003/12/24/24202c1.jpg

http://www.ballparktour.com/Dolphins112.jpg

Anyone who looks at only the pictures from last week's game posted earlier in this thread without any historical context is clearly not seeing the entire picture.

[TJH1923]

The fan base for major league baseball is here in South Florida:

http://www.fahs.org/roadtrips/world-series/World%20Series%20Ticket%20032.jpg

http://www.i-feiliao.com/domi/pics/stadium_proplayer.jpg

http://home.pusan.ac.kr/~kebinlee/marlins3.jpg

http://www.eluniversal.com/2003/12/24/24202c1.jpg

http://www.ballparktour.com/Dolphins112.jpg

Anyone who looks at only the pictures from last week's game posted earlier in this thread without any historical context is clearly not seeing the entire picture.

Granted that game was extremely unusual, but the pictures you posted are not the norm either.

The Yankees in September of 1966 drew 413 fans and even though attendance was much lower for MLB during that time, that was still a disgrace and an embarrassment. Some say Red Barber, a Yankee announcer, was fired because he mentioned the size of the crowd during the broadcast.

Something has to give down there. Blame whoever or whatever you want to, but the fans must show up on a constant basis. Is 20,000 plus average game attendance too much to ask from the fan base?

[Onemoredayatshea27]

Blame the owner of the Marlins. He gets rid of the players that helped put two rings on his fat fingers. Add in the fact that stadium isn't able to close, it was built for a football team, and that a lot of people in Florida came from New York (Mets and Yankee fans). There's a lot of reasons now why the Marlins have poor attendance.

[PeteU]

Granted that game was extremely unusual, but the pictures you posted are not the norm either.

The Yankees in September of 1966 drew 413 fans and even though attendance was much lower for MLB during that time, that was still a disgrace and an embarrassment. Some say Red Barber, a Yankee announcer, was fired because he mentioned the size of the crowd during the broadcast.

Something has to give down there. Blame whoever or whatever you want to, but the fans must show up on a constant basis. Is 20,000 plus average game attendance too much to ask from the fan base?

I'll totally agree with you that fans do need to show up on a consistent basis. It should be noted, however, that the Marlins have in fact drawn 20,000+ on average for multiple years, including in 2004 and 2005:

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/teams/marlins3.shtml

The problem has always been a percieved lack of stability. The temporary euphoria in 1997 and 2003 notwithstanding, the amount of banter of threats of relocation and even contraction has put a damper on the perception that this team will be there for good, and therefore the fewer amount of people who are willing to make a long term investment in following the team. That, more than anything else, I think is the most prevelant factor in keeping attendance down here.

A new ballpark deal would work wonders in that it would finally "cement" the team here as opposed to giving fans a feeling that the team is merely temporary. Much like what happened in Seattle and Cleveland once new ballparks were approved there.

Much of the funding is already agreed upon, to be contributed by both the team and the city. The money that would have otherwise gone to renovate the Orange Bowl is now free. A downtown site could be chosen, or worst comes to worst the Orange Bowl site can be used. I truly feel these low crowds are the simple result of being darkest before the dawn of a better, infinitely more stable era for Marlins baseball.

[Lafferty Daniel]

The announced crowd for yesterday's Marlins/Nats game was 10,121, although sources say that about 5,000 actually showed up since they changed the time due to Rosh Hashanah.

South Florida, you have Miggy Cabrera and Hanley Ramirez playing in their prime right now. I'd consider a season ticket package just to watch those two.

[PeteU]

South Florida, you have Miggy Cabrera and Hanley Ramirez playing in their prime right now.



Both players who are destined to be perrenial All Stars. And certainly, getting to watch them on a daily basis is always enjoyable.

Of course, when the bullpen can't hold a lead to save its life, all their contributions are for naught. A way too common occurance this year.

The fear is, of course, Cabrera and Ramirez will be sold off as many other top Marlins over the years have been. Irrational or rational fear, that's debatable--but it's a pervasive sickness that's grown over time down here.

[Lafferty Daniel]

Both players who are destined to be perrenial All Stars. And certainly, getting to watch them on a daily basis is always enjoyable.

Of course, when the bullpen can't hold a lead to save its life, all their contributions are for naught. A way too common occurance this year.

The fear is, of course, Cabrera and Ramirez will be sold off as many other top Marlins over the years have been. Irrational or rational fear, that's debatable--but it's a pervasive sickness that's grown over time down here.

So people down there can't live in the now? I wish the best for your team but how long do the excuses need to go on?

[PeteU]

So people down there can't live in the now? I wish the best for your team but how long do the excuses need to go on?

If your wife/girlfriend is openly talking about how she's contemplating leaving you for another guy, how excited are you going to be to see her at the end of the day?

I'm just saying....

[EdTarbusz]

I think there were more people at my wedding than in that picture.

[Sean O]

If your wife/girlfriend is openly talking about how she's contemplating leaving you for another guy, how excited are you going to be to see her at the end of the day?

I'm just saying....

Well, if the alternative is to sit on your couch by yourself, or spend time with her anyway, wouldn't it be nice to put in your all for the relationship? Or, even if you think it's doomed, enjoy it for the time being, considering it has given you 2 moments many other people would kill for?

[TJH1923]

Originally Posted by PeteU
If your wife/girlfriend is openly talking about how she's contemplating leaving you for another guy, how excited are you going to be to see her at the end of the day?

I'm just saying....

Well, if the alternative is to sit on your couch by yourself, or spend time with her anyway, wouldn't it be nice to put in your all for the relationship? Or, even if you think it's doomed, enjoy it for the time being, considering it has given you 2 moments many other people would kill for?

LMAO!!!!!!!!! Don't let the door hit you in the caboose.........:thumbsup: :thumbsup::think: :think:

[RichardK]

How about Smallest Post Season Crowds?

[Lafferty Daniel]

How about Smallest Post Season Crowds?

That's gotta be Atlanta.

[Lafferty Daniel]

If your wife/girlfriend is openly talking about how she's contemplating leaving you for another guy, how excited are you going to be to see her at the end of the day?

I'm just saying....

That's a silly comparison. I would much rather have my girlfriend leave me than to see Johan Santana leave the Twins :)

Seriously though, as a Twins fan I understand where your franchise is coming from since we too have to deal with the possibilities that other teams will out bid us in free agency. It just seems like a cop out that Florida fans won't support the team currently on the field because they are scared of losing Cabrera down the road. I mean it's not like Hanley Ramirez is leaving Florida anytime soon. You guys currently have one of the best shortstops in the bigs and a good portion of your community is really missing out.

[Onemoredayatshea27]

If I was a Marlin fan, I'd try to go to most of the games, there's a lot of good seats available:think: .

[TJH1923]

I posted this on the "Current Events" thread "Would a third team in NY decrease Yanks/Mets revenues?" and I that it was applicable to this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanshocker13
Sorry to post again but just found this online:
http://www.nysun.com/article/62559


The author of this article points out an important wrinkle in any team move and that is the anti-trust exemption.

With all the finances it takes to purchase and invest in a Major League franchise, there will eventually be an owner who decides to challenge the status quo (think the players union challenge to the reserve clause). Is MLB prepared for a nasty and very public fight from an owner who might want to re-locate and is denied? The pending law suits from such a scenario are something MLB wants to avoid at all costs. That anti-trust exemption will be the main focus of any litigation and MLB will have to justify the anti-trust exemption first before it could challenge any denied move. MLB, in my opinion would have to acquiesce to any such owner willing to go against the grain.

MLB can be cute. That farce they played a few years ago with contraction was a calculated business maneuver that the fans, local and state government bought hook, line and sinker. Look what they are doing now, building a new ball park in Minnesota. That was a concocted move that Bud Selig came up with to help out his friend. The move also had huge financial ramifications for MLB.

MLB eventually “convinced” ($$$$$) Peter Angelos that the Expos (Nats) move to Washington was good thing.

Consider the deal in which MLB allowed John Henry, owner of the Marlins, to purchase the Red Sox and allowed Jeff Loria, owner of the Expos, to slide into ownership of the Marlins while MLB took over the operation of the Expos until they could move them (of course with a stadium deal in place in Washington that came very close to falling through at the last minute). Frank McCourt was a bidder for the Red Sox which he eventually lost out to John Henry. Miraculously, Frank McCourt won the bidding process to buy the Dodgers.

There are many back room handshakes and deals behind closed doors when it comes to how decisions are made by MLB. They also conveniently know when to put their heads into the sand the way they did for all those years regarding steroid use among their players and the way they do when existing owners do very little to improve their franchise, but have no problem cashing their luxury tax checks.

[PeteU]

That's a silly comparison. I would much rather have my girlfriend leave me than to see Johan Santana leave the Twins :)

Seriously though, as a Twins fan I understand where your franchise is coming from since we too have to deal with the possibilities that other teams will out bid us in free agency. It just seems like a cop out that Florida fans won't support the team currently on the field because they are scared of losing Cabrera down the road. I mean it's not like Hanley Ramirez is leaving Florida anytime soon. You guys currently have one of the best shortstops in the bigs and a good portion of your community is really missing out.

No, trust me, I'll be the first to admit the situation here sucks. There are some good hard core fans here, you'd be surprised. But too many have been scared off by years of bad ownership, and too often take the good things (such as a quality farm system) for granted.

If I had the time and money, I'd love to get season tickets. Unfortunately, I've got neither, but love to catch the Fish as much as I can, well attended or not.

[PeteU]

Well, if the alternative is to sit on your couch by yourself, or spend time with her anyway, wouldn't it be nice to put in your all for the relationship? Or, even if you think it's doomed, enjoy it for the time being, considering it has given you 2 moments many other people would kill for?

That would probably depend on how hot she is. If you're talking average looking, I'm not so sure. Supermodel, on the other hand, I'd make the best of the worst situation. :laugh

[nymetsgiantspolo]

The Orange Bowl has so many problems its not funny.

1. Lack of public transport
2. Lack of parking (4000)
3. Lack of roads leading into the stadium (draw bridges unreliable, some are broken, others are shut down).

The Downtown area is the only real viable spot.

Oh and for what the Miami fanbase is capable of, looking at attendance by years suggests some very interesting things.

1. The Marlins have never been higher than 5th in the National League.
2. Even in their first year when Colorado was setting an attendance record, the Marlins as an expansion team wasn't higher than 5th.
3. By the 4th year of MLB baseball in Florida, the attendance was down 10th in the league.
4. In the Marlins championship year of 1997, they only managed 5th in the league in attendance.
5. In their championship year of 2003, the marlins only managed to be 15th in the National League.

If a ballpark is the answer, its Downtown.

[sturg1dj]

Florida doesn't deserve a team.....there I said it


the only place one could work there is in Orlando, and only with Disney money.....sure the Marlins have won 2 titles, but when they are winning people still don't come

For the Marlins I blame the owners who have a system that works but ignores the fans....get a bunch of great players win, trade them for awesome prospects and win with them and trade them.

it always suprises me when I see a diehard Marlin or Devil Ray fan since it just doesn't seem like they exist...but they do, and I guess those people do deserve a team.

[Gary Dunaier]

According to wikipedia, there were about 1200 at YS for the completion of the Pine Tar game
Considering that there were only four outs to go, and that's all that were played that day, that's an extraordinary number. If memory serves me right, they didn't charge admission.

From the standpoint of "a day at the ballpark," I wonder how a team would handle that situation today. Would they just play the four outs and that's all, thank you for coming arrive home safely, or would they try to arrange some other entertainment?

[PeteU]

Florida doesn't deserve a team.....there I said it


the only place one could work there is in Orlando, and only with Disney money.....sure the Marlins have won 2 titles, but when they are winning people still don't come

For the Marlins I blame the owners who have a system that works but ignores the fans....get a bunch of great players win, trade them for awesome prospects and win with them and trade them.

it always suprises me when I see a diehard Marlin or Devil Ray fan since it just doesn't seem like they exist...but they do, and I guess those people do deserve a team.


Actually Orlando would probably be the weakest Florida market. Towns built around tourism would seem to put their sports teams second in priority, and visitors are too busy with the vacation spots to think about doing something they could do when they are home. It's the same reason a Las Vegas team would crash and burn.

Given its growth, Jacksonville could be a major league market in the future, but probably still not for a decade or two. They are very supportive of the Jacksonville Suns and have a beautiful minor league ballpark.

Devil Rays have never had a winning season. Give the team a winning season, and especially a playoff appearance, and you'd see a dramatic rise in attendance. It was the same story for the Bucanneers and the Lightning, so I don't see it being any different.

And as I've said ad nauseum, the greatest problem with the Marlins is stability. 1997 and 2003 were great and kept the hope alive, but the Marlins need a sense that they are not going to be ripped away out of the market for fans willing to make an investment in them. Perhaps they are overly fickle that way, but what can I say? They don't want a "loan-a-team".

Devil Rays and Marlins fans may be far fewer and in between, but they still are there, and those that do come are good, loyal fans. And one thing I don't think I've ever really seen are Marlins or Devil Rays fans wearing hats in pastel or other odd non-team colors, as I've seen on a lot of "fans" of certain Northeastern teams.

[PeteU]

Oh and for what the Miami fanbase is capable of, looking at attendance by years suggests some very interesting things.

1. The Marlins have never been higher than 5th in the National League.
2. Even in their first year when Colorado was setting an attendance record, the Marlins as an expansion team wasn't higher than 5th.
3. By the 4th year of MLB baseball in Florida, the attendance was down 10th in the league.
4. In the Marlins championship year of 1997, they only managed 5th in the league in attendance.
5. In their championship year of 2003, the marlins only managed to be 15th in the National League.



Don't forget, for the first few years of the franchise, the team had the outfield upper deck seats covered up with tarps and did not sell those seats at all, even when all uncovered seats were sold out. So it is quite possible the attendance numbers would have even been higher the first two years when attendance was very strong (3 million the first year, and would have been close to 3 million again in 1994 but for the strike).

You point out 2003, but you forget that for nearly half of the year, it looked like the Marlins were going to end up with just another losing or sub-par season. However, in the last month or two of the season, the Marlins were routinely getting crowds of 20,000 plus and some 30,000 plus, which isn't perfect, but considering the year before they only averaged a little over 10,000 all year, was a marked improvement. Not bad for a team that in 2002 was bought by Jeff Loria, the man who ruined the Montreal Expos, and a team that was oftened rumored for the contraction block.

[Doug Miller]

Granted that game was extremely unusual, but the pictures you posted are not the norm either.

The Yankees in September of 1966 drew 413 fans and even though attendance was much lower for MLB during that time, that was still a disgrace and an embarrassment. Some say Red Barber, a Yankee announcer, was fired because he mentioned the size of the crowd during the broadcast.

Something has to give down there. Blame whoever or whatever you want to, but the fans must show up on a constant basis. Is 20,000 plus average game attendance too much to ask from the fan base?

The Marlins have the 2nd lowest attendance average in all of baseball. They're coming in at barely 16,000 people... and I'm pretty sure that was before last game. Using Opening Day and the World Series (against the Yankees) as examples of Marlins fans supporting baseball is a pretty big stretch. How Florida and Tampa aren't in Portland, OR yet just speaks to the incompetence of Oregon lawmakers to get any kind of a stadium deal done.

Doug

[nymetsgiantspolo]

Don't forget, for the first few years of the franchise, the team had the outfield upper deck seats covered up with tarps and did not sell those seats at all, even when all uncovered seats were sold out. So it is quite possible the attendance numbers would have even been higher the first two years when attendance was very strong (3 million the first year, and would have been close to 3 million again in 1994 but for the strike).

You point out 2003, but you forget that for nearly half of the year, it looked like the Marlins were going to end up with just another losing or sub-par season. However, in the last month or two of the season, the Marlins were routinely getting crowds of 20,000 plus and some 30,000 plus, which isn't perfect, but considering the year before they only averaged a little over 10,000 all year, was a marked improvement. Not bad for a team that in 2002 was bought by Jeff Loria, the man who ruined the Montreal Expos, and a team that was oftened rumored for the contraction block.


One point you are correct is the upper deck was covered. This reduced capacity to 47,600 seats. Even so, the Marlins drew an average of 38,000 (well a little less, but right around). So they weren't exactly filling capacity...

3,000,000 is very strong attendance. The problem is that after the first two years attendance just nosedived. And yes there was a strike, but even so, there were many teams who managed to do better after the strike the Marlins.

Yes, its true in 2003 they looked dead for the world, before coming back. 20,000-30,000 is a nice stepping stone. If they had followed it up with average attendance in the lower 30,000's or upper 20,000's.... but the best they could manage when people knew they were contending was the low 20,000's (good for 14th in the NL).

[nymetsgiantspolo]

The Marlins have the 2nd lowest attendance average in all of baseball. They're coming in at barely 16,000 people... and I'm pretty sure that was before last game. Using Opening Day and the World Series (against the Yankees) as examples of Marlins fans supporting baseball is a pretty big stretch. How Florida and Tampa aren't in Portland, OR yet just speaks to the incompetence of Oregon lawmakers to get any kind of a stadium deal done.

Doug

Now I heard the Mayor is not smart with concern to this... anyone want to explain it further?

[Elvis]

http://www.oregonstadiumcampaign.com/images/Mayor_Potter's_Letter_to_Marlins.gif

--------------

[Elvis]

Baseball: Portland, Norfolk staying in touch with Marlins

3/16/2006

Tom Orsborn
Express-News Staff Writer

Officials in Portland, Ore., and Norfolk, Va., said Wednesday that they continue to talk with the Florida Marlins even though the team seemingly has elevated San Antonio to the top of its relocation options.

The Marlins have visited San Antonio and Portland and met with officials from Norfolk. They also are expected to visit Charlotte, N.C., and have received inquiries from officials in northern New Jersey and Monterrey, Mexico.

Drew Mahalic, CEO of the Oregon Sports Authority, and Will Somerindyke Jr., a businessman spearheading Norfolk's bid to lure the Marlins, said the team has not given them reason to believe their cities are out of the running.

"We have and will continue to have periodic dialogue with the Marlins," Mahalic said. "They have not indicated to us who their finalists will be."

Somerindyke said his most recent conversation with Marlins officials was just days ago.

"It's been both ways — they've called us and we've called them," Somerindyke said. "They are looking at all of their options. San Antonio has publicly been the one they are talking very seriously to, but it's prudent for them to look at all their options, including staying in Miami."

P.J. Loyello, a Marlins spokesman, said talks with San Antonio haven't prevented team officials from looking at other cities.

"The owner (Jeffrey Loria) has asked us to explore all options, and we will continue to do so until we have a stadium deal in place," Loyello said.

The Marlins, who have said they want to stay in South Florida, drew 1.8 million fans last season to rank near the bottom of the National League. They play in Dolphins Stadium, which they share with Miami's NFL team, and blame that venue for the poor attendance.

The Marlins received permission in November from Major League Baseball to explore other cities after stadium talks in South Florida stalled. The team's lease at Dolphins Stadium expires after the 2007 season, but a series of one-year options could allow the Marlins to remain there through 2010.

Last week, the Marlins received a stadium-financing offer from County Judge Nelson Wolff. The deal calls for Bexar County to pay up to two-thirds of the cost to build a $300 million stadium.

The Marlins told Wolff on Tuesday it could be "weeks" before the team and MLB decide whether to continue negotiations to move the team to San Antonio.

"I know the Marlins are pretty serious about San Antonio," Somerindyke said. "But there are concerns there, just as there are concerns in Portland and everywhere. You are not dealing with a top-tier market anywhere. You are going to have advantages and disadvantages. The Marlins just have to find the right fit for them."

The Marlins visited San Antonio in December. In January, they visited Portland, although that city's mayor has said it has no plans to pay for a ballpark.

Last month, the Marlins visited with representatives of Norfolk. Marlins president David Samson said a financing plan was discussed that required "a very small contribution by the team."

Said Somerindyke: "We feel like we have one of the most attractive stadium packages available."

[DodgerDrei]

A personal theory for all.....Perhaps the reason the Marlins suffer @ the turnstiles, could be because spring training has had a long history in Florida, many of the baseball fans down there have maintained their loyalties to their MLB team whose ST base is located. Also, let's not forget that Florida has many transplants from the north too, especially New York. I went to a Dodgers-D-Backs game at the BOB a few years ago, and many of the fans I talked to told me of teams who trained in Arizona and their fans who have kept their allegiances , espcially the Cubs fans. That could also be a factor as to why the D-Backs have struggled at the gate as well. Oh yeah, I've also been told that Dolphin Stadium is not conveniently located that it's actually closer to Ft. Lauderdale. Last but not least, though I've never been to Dolphin Stadium, I wouldn't think that a baseball stadium where the ring of honor in the Stadium that includes the names of Shula, Marino, Griese, would add to the ambience either.....Well, it's time for DODGER BASEBALL. GO DODGERS !!!!

[Doug Miller]

Now I heard the Mayor is not smart with concern to this... anyone want to explain it further?

The local tribe offered to pay for a stadium, in exchange for permission to open tribal gaming casinos in the area, but not related to the park. They also offered huge payments to the local area schools as part of the package. They were turned down without even being given the opportunity to negotiate.

Doug

[PeteU]

No matter.

Portland and the Marlins aren't happening. There's too much funding on the table for a new Marlins ballpark already with just a relatively small gap remaining, and the Miami market is too big to be left abandoned.

Portland and the Devil Rays aren't happening either, at least not for now. Maybe in 5 years or so if the Devil Rays attendance is still struggling, and only if Portland has a deal on the table. Right now the Rays have a pretty big lease that would have to be broken in order for the team to leave at this point.

[PeteU]

The Marlins have the 2nd lowest attendance average in all of baseball. They're coming in at barely 16,000 people... and I'm pretty sure that was before last game. Using Opening Day and the World Series (against the Yankees) as examples of Marlins fans supporting baseball is a pretty big stretch. How Florida and Tampa aren't in Portland, OR yet just speaks to the incompetence of Oregon lawmakers to get any kind of a stadium deal done.

Doug

You are saying that the stadium would be half empty if the 2003 World Series were against someone other than the Yankees? Puh-lease. All three Miami games sold out in a matter of hours--I know because I was online trying to get tickets but got shut out. All of this before the Yankees had clinched against the Red Sox. And as many NY transplants as there may be in South Florida, the Yankees fans during the '03 series were not extremely significant. I'd say the Cubs fans during the NLCS were more of a factor than the Yankees fans during the series.

August 17, 2007. Marlins vs. Giants. Attendance: 42,817. The market is here.

[Urbanshocker13]

Is Norfolk VA big enough to support a MLB team? I was in Virgina Beach a couple of years ago and on the buss back went through Norfolk and it didn't look that big(I did pass a nice looking stadium looked like it was built in the 30's) and I checked the population and it's only about 200,000+ Is that big enough? Hell we could have a team up here in Albany/Schenectady/troy Area we have a larger population than that. Plus we have the baseball history:cool:

[RuthMayBond]

August 17, 2007. Marlins vs. Giants. Attendance: 42,817. The market is here.They had probably already bought their tickets in anticipation of Bonds' 756.

[Williamsburg2599]

Is Norfolk VA big enough to support a MLB team? I was in Virgina Beach a couple of years ago and on the buss back went through Norfolk and it didn't look that big(I did pass a nice looking stadium looked like it was built in the 30's) and I checked the population and it's only about 200,000+ Is that big enough? Hell we could have a team up here in Albany/Schenectady/troy Area we have a larger population than that. Plus we have the baseball history:cool:

Sounds a lot like Central mass too. Bring back the Trojans and the Rubylegs! :laugh

[Urbanshocker13]

Sounds a lot like Central mass too. Bring back the Trojans and the Rubylegs! :laugh
Hey dont forget the Haymakers and the Knickerbockers:p

[Williamsburg2599]

Hey dont forget the Haymakers and the Knickerbockers:p

Or the Grays or the Bison, hell, bring them all back!

[Urbanshocker13]

Or the Grays or the Bison, hell, bring them all back!

Yeah and have scores like 35-27 and have games called because fans attack the umpire and threw soda bottles on the feild (which happened in troy a few time) Oh the 19th century! But we are in the wrong Thread!

[marlins739]

Florida doesn't deserve a team.....there I said it


the only place one could work there is in Orlando, and only with Disney money.....sure the Marlins have won 2 titles, but when they are winning people still don't come

For the Marlins I blame the owners who have a system that works but ignores the fans....get a bunch of great players win, trade them for awesome prospects and win with them and trade them.

it always suprises me when I see a diehard Marlin or Devil Ray fan since it just doesn't seem like they exist...but they do, and I guess those people do deserve a team.

sturg1dj, I have no idea where you're from, or what team you like, and I'm not trying to pick on you personally, but your post is the most recent one that said it.
Why do people from up north have to say that we don't deserve a team? How does it personally offend you guys that the Marlins and Devil Rays don't get 50,000 a night? How many people have to show up when we're in a pennant race to make you guys happy? We filled up Pro Player with more than the official baseball sellouts of 36,331. And I know the Devil Rays would sell out the Trop in a heartbeat when they get in the playoff race. People who don't know about anything outside their little world in the northeast (and other big markets) and have no idea about what happens down in Florida love to join in the chorus of "we don't deserve a team." I could spin it around and say that you guys don't deserve a team. You're just a bunch of overpriced purchased stars who go out and win because the Boss is signing the paychecks and it's New Yawk. Teenage girls and rap stars wear Yankee hats because it's the stylish thing to do. I don't believe that at all, but it's just as shortsighted as what big market fans say about us. Comparing the Marlins to the Rockies isn't even a valid example. They had a stadium deal from the beginning. There are plenty of reasons why Marlins attendance isn't good, the least of which is that we "don't deserve a team." Did New York "deserve" the Yankees in the 60s when they threatened to move to New Orleans? Yes they did, no matter how many bandwagoners jump off, the real fans will always be there and they "deserve" the team. You said it yourself, there are people like you who love your team, win or lose, and there are people here who love the Marlins and Devil Rays no matter what, no matter how much it surprises anyone to see them. It surprises me to see a real Yankee fan, one who really knows the game and can name players besides Jeter and A-Rod. The threat of rain, the threats by the owners to move us, and how hot it is at night in Miami Gardens, and how the stadium isn't near anything don't help attendance. The Marlins and Devil Rays aren't the Yankees and Red Sox, and that's one of the reasons why we love them. And remind me who won the last World Series game at Yankee Stadium? Did we not "deserve" that either? Say what you want about the Marlins and Devil Rays if you know what you're talking about, but don't knock us down just because we're not the financial powerhouse the Yankees and Red Sox are.

Back to the original topic, I really don't think there are any viable relocation markets right now. Even in a attempt not to be biased about it, where would it be? Portland, San Antonio, Indianapolis, Oklahoma City have all been floated around, but none of them are lining up to build anyone a stadium. The current funding gap in Miami is small compared to how much money a team going to those places would have to find from scratch. The Orioles and Nationals wouldn't be overly thrilled with a team in Norfolk, especially as the Nationals are trying to put together their own fan base. Orlando and Las Vegas definitely wouldn't work for reasons mentioned before. Jacksonville is growing but it's getting into Braves territory. Where else is there to go that would finance a stadium?

[nymetsgiantspolo]

sturg1dj, I have no idea where you're from, or what team you like, and I'm not trying to pick on you personally, but your post is the most recent one that said it.
Why do people from up north have to say that we don't deserve a team? How does it personally offend you guys that the Marlins and Devil Rays don't get 50,000 a night? How many people have to show up when we're in a pennant race to make you guys happy? We filled up Pro Player with more than the official baseball sellouts of 36,331. And I know the Devil Rays would sell out the Trop in a heartbeat when they get in the playoff race. People who don't know about anything outside their little world in the northeast (and other big markets) and have no idea about what happens down in Florida love to join in the chorus of "we don't deserve a team." I could spin it around and say that you guys don't deserve a team. You're just a bunch of overpriced purchased stars who go out and win because the Boss is signing the paychecks and it's New Yawk. Teenage girls and rap stars wear Yankee hats because it's the stylish thing to do. I don't believe that at all, but it's just as shortsighted as what big market fans say about us. Comparing the Marlins to the Rockies isn't even a valid example. They had a stadium deal from the beginning. There are plenty of reasons why Marlins attendance isn't good, the least of which is that we "don't deserve a team." Did New York "deserve" the Yankees in the 60s when they threatened to move to New Orleans? Yes they did, no matter how many bandwagoners jump off, the real fans will always be there and they "deserve" the team. You said it yourself, there are people like you who love your team, win or lose, and there are people here who love the Marlins and Devil Rays no matter what, no matter how much it surprises anyone to see them. It surprises me to see a real Yankee fan, one who really knows the game and can name players besides Jeter and A-Rod. The threat of rain, the threats by the owners to move us, and how hot it is at night in Miami Gardens, and how the stadium isn't near anything don't help attendance. The Marlins and Devil Rays aren't the Yankees and Red Sox, and that's one of the reasons why we love them. And remind me who won the last World Series game at Yankee Stadium? Did we not "deserve" that either? Say what you want about the Marlins and Devil Rays if you know what you're talking about, but don't knock us down just because we're not the financial powerhouse the Yankees and Red Sox are.

Back to the original topic, I really don't think there are any viable relocation markets right now. Even in a attempt not to be biased about it, where would it be? Portland, San Antonio, Indianapolis, Oklahoma City have all been floated around, but none of them are lining up to build anyone a stadium. The current funding gap in Miami is small compared to how much money a team going to those places would have to find from scratch. The Orioles and Nationals wouldn't be overly thrilled with a team in Norfolk, especially as the Nationals are trying to put together their own fan base. Orlando and Las Vegas definitely wouldn't work for reasons mentioned before. Jacksonville is growing but it's getting into Braves territory. Where else is there to go that would finance a stadium?

Just going on attendance, I believe this might have been the largest crowd that wasn't opening day or a playoff game..... http://www.baseball-almanac.com/box-scores/boxscore.php?boxid=200309130FLO


You do got to admit that the Marlins have got a major problem on their hand. They got a few pretty good crowds in September of 03... that was the best they could do. Even when they were competitive in 04 and 05, they best they could manage was 26th and 28th in the MLB.

I'm not one to say that a certain town "deserves" a team over another. I'm merely saying that the Marlin fan hasn't shown the enthusiasm that one would hope for. And the Yankee comparison isn't a good one in terms of attendance... they were right in the middle of the pack in those lousy sixties. At worst they were 5th in the American League... In fact their worst attendance numbers were in the early 20th century or in the early 90's....

I think if the Marlins can get the Downtown site they could be very viable. I don't believe in the Orange Bowl site.

[nymetsgiantspolo]

They had probably already bought their tickets in anticipation of Bonds' 756.

That's what it is.

[nymetsgiantspolo]

The local tribe offered to pay for a stadium, in exchange for permission to open tribal gaming casinos in the area, but not related to the park. They also offered huge payments to the local area schools as part of the package. They were turned down without even being given the opportunity to negotiate.

Doug

Oh, I can see why MLB passed... They didn't want anything to do with gambling... Thats what I think at least....

[Onemoredayatshea27]

A new ballpark won't solve much. Look at the Pirates they built a beautiful park... it's the fact their owners spend little on their team, and they have been losing 16 years now. Put a winning team in a crappy ballpark, and the fans will come. Just ask the New York Mets.

[nymetsgiantspolo]

A new ballpark won't solve much. Look at the Pirates they built a beautiful park... it's the fact their owners spend little on their team, and they have been losing 16 years now. Put a winning team in a crappy ballpark, and the fans will come. Just ask the New York Mets.

Man when the Mets were bad in 03 and 04 it was awesome. I remember going to an early 1:20 game on fox I think. The Mets didn't take BP, but the Cardinals did. Got 4 balls that day, but the coolest was Tino Martinez hit one in the loge deck (where i sat right next to the mets bullpen). Well not exactly into it. He hit one right near it, I reached over, and the ball went in my glove. I then had a 2 minute convo with some Cardinal coach on the catch. I then threw him the ball and he threw it back. GOOD TIMES!

[nymetsgiantspolo]

A new ballpark won't solve much. Look at the Pirates they built a beautiful park... it's the fact their owners spend little on their team, and they have been losing 16 years now. Put a winning team in a crappy ballpark, and the fans will come. Just ask the New York Mets.

No, after a while even the best ballparks cannot attract fans when the team stinks.... that said, a good ballpark with a bad team attracts more people than a bad ballpark with a bad team.

[Gary Dunaier]

Man when the Mets were bad in 03 and 04 it was awesome.
In 2004, I bought a pair of Field Box tickets for the next-to-last game of the year, against Montreal, face value $65 each, very good seats (maybe 8th row from the field, waiter service and Diamond Club access), on Ebay for $25 for the pair.

Those days are gone forever. :dismay:

[nymetsgiantspolo]

In 2004, I bought a pair of Field Box tickets for the next-to-last game of the year, against Montreal, face value $65 each, very good seats (maybe 8th row from the field, waiter service and Diamond Club access), on Ebay for $25 for the pair.

Those days are gone forever. :dismay:

And now with capacity down 41,000, even when they stink, they'll always be 3/4 at worst.

[west coast orange and black]

tearforamariner: You'd think he'd move up.

or down!

[Knick9]

Marlins739, you are so way off, it isn't funny.

Time is still ticking for a stadium deal to get done...tick tock.

For anyone in general, show me that Miami and Tampa deserve teams. I can hear it all day, but I can't see it, and seeing it matters most.

[PeteU]

They had probably already bought their tickets in anticipation of Bonds' 756.

Quite possible, but whatever the motive be, the crowd that night looked very substantial--it looked like a crowd of around 40,000, very few no-shows. And while they may have came in part to see Bonds, they didn't come to root for the Giants--they came out in Marlins teal and black. So, again, I reiterate, the market is indeed here.

[RuthMayBond]

Quite possible, but whatever the motive be, the crowd that night looked very substantial--it looked like a crowd of around 40,000, very few no-shows. And while they may have came in part to see Bonds, they didn't come to root for the Giants--they came out in Marlins teal and black. So, again, I reiterate, the market is indeed here.You can talk all you want but 2nd lowest attendance talks louder :rolleyes: :blah: :blah:

[PeteU]

Teenage girls and rap stars wear Yankee hats because it's the stylish thing to do. I don't believe that at all, but it's just as shortsighted as what big market fans say about us. Comparing the Marlins to the Rockies isn't even a valid example. They had a stadium deal from the beginning. There are plenty of reasons why Marlins attendance isn't good, the least of which is that we "don't deserve a team." Did New York "deserve" the Yankees in the 60s when they threatened to move to New Orleans? Yes they did, no matter how many bandwagoners jump off, the real fans will always be there and they "deserve" the team. You said it yourself, there are people like you who love your team, win or lose, and there are people here who love the Marlins and Devil Rays no matter what, no matter how much it surprises anyone to see them. It surprises me to see a real Yankee fan, one who really knows the game and can name players besides Jeter and A-Rod.



In the 2003 World Series, both the Yankees and the Marlins had won exciting 7 game league championship series to advance to the World Series. The Yankees had won against their hated rivals, the Red Sox, when Aaron Boone homered in extra innings in Game 7 of the ALCS. The Marlins were down 3 games to 1 to the Cubs at one point but had fought back. They were only a few outs away from being sent home early in Game 6 until their late inning rally. In Game 7, the Marlins again had to come back from an early deficit to clinch the series.

But in Game 1 of the World Series at Yankee Stadium, many of the banners and signs at Yankee Stadium were not focused on the Yankee's current opponent but rather meant to gloat about the Yankees' sending the Red Sox down to humiliating defeat once again. (Signs like "Babe, Bucky, Boone" and the sort.) Far fewer signs were directed at the Florida Marlins, who many Yankee fans considered to be mere lambs for the slaughter for yet another Yankee world championship.

On the other hand, when the series switched to Game 3 in Miami, the attitude of the Marlins fans was not to gloat on and on about the Marlins' come from behind defeat of the Cubs, but rather it was focused on this exciting young team defeating the heavily favored New York Yankees. This atmosphere continued to Game 4, when Marlins fans stayed late into the night to see Alex Gonzalez's shot off of Jeff Weaver to even the series. And into Game 6, when all the talk was how the series returning to Yankee Stadium would give the edge to the Yankees thanks to the concepts of "mystique" and "aura." And yet there was Josh Beckett tagging out Jorge Posada in front of what could only be described as the quietest collection of 55,773 people ever assembled, wondering much like Butch Cassidy, "Who are those guys?"

Now, I don't want to take too much of an unfair swipe against the Yankees fanbase, who I'll fully concede are great in number and team spirit. But you have to ask yourself which is the better fanbase: The one that obsesses about a past victory against a rival, a victory that very few outside of the New York metropolitian area actually cared much about? The one who assumes a younger, unknown team is simply one to roll over en route to another world championship? The one that relies on nebulous, supernatural concepts as a reason as to why it was going to win? Or the one that is not focused on past victories, no matter how great, but the current opponent and how the team has the skill to defeat them against all odds and mumbo-jumbo talk? It seems to me that the Marlins fanbase--no matter how fractured, troubled and underachieving it might be--showed itself to be far better and knowledgeable than the Yankees fanbase by their actions. At least in 2003.

[PeteU]

For anyone in general, show me that Miami and Tampa deserve teams. I can hear it all day, but I can't see it, and seeing it matters most.

Cleveland. Seattle. Atlanta.

If low attendance at one point in time would require re-location, these team's paltry attendance during the 1980s (many years drawing even less than this year's averages of the Marlins and Devil Rays) would have required these teams all to be in a different city today.

Now they are all quite stable in drawing in fans. Are they in fact bad markets?

[PeteU]

You can talk all you want but 2nd lowest attendance talks louder :rolleyes: :blah: :blah:

Says the guy from....Cleveland? Did you by chance follow your team during the 1980s and early 1990s?

[TJH1923]

August 17, 2007. Marlins vs. Giants. Attendance: 42,817. The market is here.

I thought maybe "scratch off Friday" for the first 15,000 fans drew them in.:think:

[TJH1923]

This is an interesting article. I posted this on one of the Current Events Threads and thought it has some parallels to this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanshocker13
Sorry to post again but just found this online:
http://www.nysun.com/article/62559


The author of this article points out an important wrinkle in any team move and that is the anti-trust exemption.

With all the finances it takes to purchase and invest in a Major League franchise, there will eventually be an owner who decides to challenge the status quo (think the players union challenge to the reserve clause). Is MLB prepared for a nasty and very public fight from an owner who might want to re-locate and is denied? The pending law suits from such a scenario are something MLB wants to avoid at all costs. That anti-trust exemption will be the main focus of any litigation and MLB will have to justify the anti-trust exemption first before it could challenge any denied move. MLB, in my opinion would have to acquiesce to any such owner willing to go against the grain.

MLB can be cute. That farce they played a few years ago with contraction was a calculated business maneuver that the fans, local and state government bought hook, line and sinker. Look what they are doing now, building a new ball park in Minnesota. That was a concocted move that Bud Selig came up with to help out his friend. The move also had huge financial ramifications for MLB.

MLB eventually “convinced” ($$$$$) Peter Angelos that the Expos (Nats) move to Washington was good thing.

Consider the deal in which MLB allowed John Henry, owner of the Marlins, to purchase the Red Sox and allowed Jeff Loria, owner of the Expos, to slide into ownership of the Marlins while MLB took over the operation of the Expos until they could move them (of course with a stadium deal in place in Washington that came very close to falling through at the last minute). Frank McCourt was a bidder for the Red Sox which he eventually lost out to John Henry. Miraculously, Frank McCourt won the bidding process to buy the Dodgers.

There are many back room handshakes and deals behind closed doors when it comes to how decisions are made by MLB. They also conveniently know when to put their heads into the sand the way they did for all those years regarding steroid use among their players and the way they do when existing owners do very little to improve their franchise, but have no problem cashing their luxury tax checks.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[TJH1923]

In the 2003 World Series, both the Yankees and the Marlins had won exciting 7 game league championship series to advance to the World Series. The Yankees had won against their hated rivals, the Red Sox, when Aaron Boone homered in extra innings in Game 7 of the ALCS. The Marlins were down 3 games to 1 to the Cubs at one point but had fought back. They were only a few outs away from being sent home early in Game 6 until their late inning rally. In Game 7, the Marlins again had to come back from an early deficit to clinch the series.

But in Game 1 of the World Series at Yankee Stadium, many of the banners and signs at Yankee Stadium were not focused on the Yankee's current opponent but rather meant to gloat about the Yankees' sending the Red Sox down to humiliating defeat once again. (Signs like "Babe, Bucky, Boone" and the sort.) Far fewer signs were directed at the Florida Marlins, who many Yankee fans considered to be mere lambs for the slaughter for yet another Yankee world championship.

On the other hand, when the series switched to Game 3 in Miami, the attitude of the Marlins fans was not to gloat on and on about the Marlins' come from behind defeat of the Cubs, but rather it was focused on this exciting young team defeating the heavily favored New York Yankees. This atmosphere continued to Game 4, when Marlins fans stayed late into the night to see Alex Gonzalez's shot off of Jeff Weaver to even the series. And into Game 6, when all the talk was how the series returning to Yankee Stadium would give the edge to the Yankees thanks to the concepts of "mystique" and "aura." And yet there was Josh Beckett tagging out Jorge Posada in front of what could only be described as the quietest collection of 55,773 people ever assembled, wondering much like Butch Cassidy, "Who are those guys?"

Now, I don't want to take too much of an unfair swipe against the Yankees fanbase, who I'll fully concede are great in number and team spirit. But you have to ask yourself which is the better fanbase: The one that obsesses about a past victory against a rival, a victory that very few outside of the New York metropolitian area actually cared much about? The one who assumes a younger, unknown team is simply one to roll over en route to another world championship? The one that relies on nebulous, supernatural concepts as a reason as to why it was going to win? Or the one that is not focused on past victories, no matter how great, but the current opponent and how the team has the skill to defeat them against all odds and mumbo-jumbo talk? It seems to me that the Marlins fanbase--no matter how fractured, troubled and underachieving it might be--showed itself to be far better and knowledgeable than the Yankees fanbase by their actions. At least in 2003.

After all the trash talk, the games have to be played on the field to determine a winner. That is why this game is so great. While I was pissed as a Yankee fan, the Marlins did what they had to do in that series. The 1997 and 2003 championship teams should have catapulted the franchise into stability. It's a shame it didn't.

[zengator]

Marlins739, you are so way off, it isn't funny.

Time is still ticking for a stadium deal to get done...tick tock.

For anyone in general, show me that Miami and Tampa deserve teams. I can hear it all day, but I can't see it, and seeing it matters most.


OMG, knees in Florida are shaking this morning! Some arrogant/ignorant Yankee fan on the internets can't see that we deserve baseball teams!

http://www.websitegoodies.com/smilies/gfx/scared0003.gif


:rolleyes:

I don't personally know much about the Marlins' situation, so I respect the knowledge of the local fans instead of just talking out my behind.

As for the Rays, the crowds will improve as soon as they lose less than 90 games a year (which they've never done, but probably will soon).

[Elvis]

This whole idea that South Florida (or any city) not deserving a MLB team is silly. Cities deserve teams? As if MLB is some kind of magical entity exempt from common sense?

Suppose a restaurant opens in a neighborhood and it shows promise, but its owners change... it wins awards as the best restaurant, but then it's chef is fired because he makes too much money... and the restaurant decor is really outdated and not very functional for the type of restaurant that it is.....and this restaurant doesn't have AC so it's often very uncomfortable.... and most of the restaurant is al fresco with no cover, so when it rains, as it often does, the patrons get wet... and the new chef is making inconsistent food--some brilliant dishes, but mostly awful, yet they're still charging prices as of their food was on par with a good restaurant...

So all of these things lead to the restaurant not drawing many patrons...naturally...

And then someone says, "Look, no one's going to eat there. I guess the neighborhood doesn't deserve a restaurant."

Huh? What?

[Urbanshocker13]

This whole idea that South Florida (or any city) not deserving a MLB team is silly. Cities deserve teams? As if MLB is some kind of magical entity exempt from common sense?

Suppose a restaurant opens in a neighborhood and it shows promise, but its owners change... it wins awards as the best restaurant, but then it's chef is fired because he makes too much money... and the restaurant decor is really outdated and not very functional for the type of restaurant that it is.....and this restaurant doesn't have AC so it's often very uncomfortable.... and most of the restaurant is al fresco with no cover, so when it rains, as it often does, the patrons get wet... and the new chef is making inconsistent food--some brilliant dishes, but mostly awful, yet they're still charging prices as of their food was on par with a good restaurant...

So all of these things lead to the restaurant not drawing many patrons...naturally...

And then someone says, "Look, no one's going to eat there. I guess the neighborhood doesn't deserve a restaurant."

Huh? What?

Exacly very well put!!

[nymetsgiantspolo]

I hate the Yankees more than anyone.... The Yankee fanbase is a weird combo of people who live in the Bronx (don't include me), Manhattan, Northern New Jersey, Southern Connecticut, and other Americans. That said as Larry King said "Yankee Stadium is for tourists".

But who cares? They draw fans. Lots of fans. In fact, they have had 50,000+ for the past three years. I just don't get these Yankee comparisons.

If a team shows an ability to draw fans consistently over a period of time, then that is what I use to see if a team has a fanbase that will come out to watch.

There's no evidence of that yet in Florida.

And coming out to see Bonds is signs of a fanbase? My sister would try to get tickets to see Bonds... she hasn't seen a game in 6 years.

But as I said, you get a stadium in downtown Miami, I think you might have something.

[wvkeeper]

Man in Left Field Corner: Hey, give me a Bud Light!

ROFL :laugh

Seriously, this is a disgrace. I know the Marlins aren't that good of a team, but even when your team stinks, the attendance has to be respectable. This clearly isn't. Minor League teams would outdraw some Marlins home games for crying out loud! Off to (insert decent sports market here).

Heck my Pirates blow and we still average around 23,000...

[wvkeeper]

The fanbase for major league baseball is here in South Florida:

http://www.fahs.org/roadtrips/world-series/World%20Series%20Ticket%20032.jpg

http://www.i-feiliao.com/domi/pics/stadium_proplayer.jpg

http://home.pusan.ac.kr/~kebinlee/marlins3.jpg

http://www.eluniversal.com/2003/12/24/24202c1.jpg

http://www.ballparktour.com/Dolphins112.jpg

Anyone who looks at only the pictures from last week's game posted earlier in this thread without any historical context is clearly not seeing the entire picture.

Shocking that Floridians would show up for a World Series game. Seriously dude how does this even compare?

[wvkeeper]

No, trust me, I'll be the first to admit the situation here sucks. There are some good hard core fans here, you'd be surprised. But too many have been scared off by years of bad ownership, and too often take the good things (such as a quality farm system) for granted.

If I had the time and money, I'd love to get season tickets. Unfortunately, I've got neither, but love to catch the Fish as much as I can, well attended or not.

Waaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhh!!!!!

We have had 15 straight years of losing in the burgh with a team that nearly moved in 1995/6 and still manage 22,000.

Quit yer whining!!!

[Elvis]

Waaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhh!!!!!

We have had 15 straight years of losing in the burgh with a team that nearly moved in 1995/6 and still manage 22,000.

Quit yer whining!!!

And before you had a new stadium and played in a multi-purpose arena like the Marlins, you drew even worse than south Florida. Heck, I remember Pittsburgh couldn't even sell out playoff games in the 90s.

[Jason R. Maier]

And before you had a new stadium and played in a multi-purpose arena like the Marlins, you drew even worse than south Florida. Heck, I remember Pittsburgh couldn't even sell out playoff games in the 90s.

Damn! that's bad not selling out playoff games . . . I also seem to recall that the Braves had a few occasions where they didn't sell out playoff games . . .

[TJH1923]

Damn! that's bad not selling out playoff games . . . I also seem to recall that the Braves had a few occasions where they didn't sell out playoff games . . .

The Orioles also in Memorial Stadium...............

[nymetsgiantspolo]

The Braves didn't sellout Division Series games.... was it because they made it so often that it wasn't seen as special?

Now, I still believe a stadium in Downtown Miami can do very well.... but the Orange Bowl site just won't do it.

[Jason R. Maier]

The Orioles also in Memorial Stadium...............

Very true . . they didn't even sell out a world Series game in 1971 . . .

[PeteU]

Waaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhh!!!!!

We have had 15 straight years of losing in the burgh with a team that nearly moved in 1995/6 and still manage 22,000.

Quit yer whining!!!

You've got the nicest ballpark in the major leagues. You damn well better draw at least 22,000. I don't care if it's the Pittsburgh Pirates or the Bad News Bears playing in there.

[PeteU]

Shocking that Floridians would show up for a World Series game. Seriously dude how does this even compare?

Photos 2, 3 and 5 are all for regular season games.

[PeteU]

From the Florida Marlins website, the history of baseball in South Florida:

http://florida.marlins.mlb.com/fla/history/timeline2.jsp

Mar. 30-31, '91 Joe Robbie Stadium hosts two exhibition games between the New York Yankees and the Baltimore Orioles, which draw 125,013 fans. This includes a Spring Training record 67,654 sellout on the first night.

The market--and its potential--is here.

[RuthMayBond]

Says the guy from....Cleveland? Did you by chance follow your team during the 1980s and early 1990s?
1) I actually did
2) I don't deny reality that attendance was poor, unlike you.
What was your point?

[nymetsgiantspolo]

From the Florida Marlins website, the history of baseball in South Florida:

http://florida.marlins.mlb.com/fla/history/timeline2.jsp

Mar. 30-31, '91 Joe Robbie Stadium hosts two exhibition games between the New York Yankees and the Baltimore Orioles, which draw 125,013 fans. This includes a Spring Training record 67,654 sellout on the first night.

The market--and its potential--is here.

One time event doesn't prove attendance.... Disco was also the top music in America for a while.... the point is that money wise the South Florida market is probably just good enough. That said, it only works with the right kind of business model that includes a stadium downtown. A stadium at the Orange Bowl might produce an instant boost in attendance but many would agree that the site would fail to meet any long term stability.

[PeteU]

1) I actually did
2) I don't deny reality that attendance was poor, unlike you.
What was your point?

Who's denying anything? The current attendance numbers are what they are. It's not as though I'm saying the Marlins are getting boffo attendance numbers, but the problem is that once the turnstiles hit 10,000 or so, the counting mechanism in them breaks down.

Do the Marlins have an attendance problem? You bet. I'm just saying that a period of low attendance, even a prolonged one, isn't necessarily indictive of a fanbase that is dead in the water and the team must be relocated. If it was, your Indians would be playing who knows where.

The things being said about the Marlins were the same things being said about the Indians in the early 1990s. I, for one, am glad that the doubters were proven wrong. I'm sure you are too.

[PeteU]

One time event doesn't prove attendance.... Disco was also the top music in America for a while.... the point is that money wise the South Florida market is probably just good enough. That said, it only works with the right kind of business model that includes a stadium downtown. A stadium at the Orange Bowl might produce an instant boost in attendance but many would agree that the site would fail to meet any long term stability.

True, but taken together with the strong first two seasons of attendance, and even the next few years where attendance leveled out but was keeping up with the Joneses, so to speak, it shows there are plenty here who are interested in watching a major league baseball team of their own.

The 67,654 who showed up in 1991 didn't come just because it was just something to do for a night. They came because they wanted a major league team--South Florida was mired deep in an expansion derby. Now, you and I both know that there was not any great exodus of people from the South Florida area between 1991 and now. Rather, there are definable reasons as to why the attendance has dropped off in the mean time. Seeing that the most distinct drop off occurred after the sell-off of the 1997 championship team in 1998, and given the fact it was after that point that rumors of relocation and contraction started up, I think you have your culprit.

A downtown stadium would be a big help. So would a baseball-only stadium adjacent to Dolphins Stadium, which would help draw in fans from Broward and Palm Beach. But even a ballpark at the Orange Bowl (which I might tend to agree with you is the least preferable of the three options) would go a long, long way. It would signal that the franchise is here to stay. No talk of relocation. No talk of being thrown out by the football team owned by the despicable former owner of the team. More than a retractable roof or an ideal location, what the Marlins need most is a sense of stability. That is what will bring the fans back in significant numbers.

[Solair Wright]

Here's a small crowd with a no-hitter thrown in the modern baseball era.

On May 23, 1991, Montreal was a victim to a Phillies' no-hitter, thrown by Tommy Greene. They announced a meager 8,833 in attendance for the rare feat. But of course, I read somewhere about no-hitters with not many people in attendance, but it was last year. It was published in the St. Louis Post Dispatch after Anibel Sanchez threw his no-hitter at Arizona.

[RuthMayBond]

Who's denying anything? The current attendance numbers are what they are. It's not as though I'm saying the Marlins are getting boffo attendance numbers, but the problem is that once the turnstiles hit 10,000 or so, the counting mechanism in them breaks down.:rolleyes:

<The things being said about the Marlins were the same things being said about the Indians in the early 1990s. I, for one, am glad that the doubters were proven wrong. I'm sure you are too.>

You guys have had recent WORLD SERIES WINNERS and still have trouble with attendance

[PeteU]

You guys have had recent WORLD SERIES WINNERS and still have trouble with attendance

And you guys had Rick "Wild Thang" Vaughn and Willie Mays Hayes and yet you still continued to have problems at the gate as well. :D

No, but seriously, it only took Wayne Huzeinga a couple of months before he started to sell off the 1997 team, and that continued all the way through 1998.

In 2003, it was better, as Loria suprisingly kept a good number of players around for the next season (after what had happened in Montreal, this was a damn miracle.) And you'll notice Marlins attendance had a noticable boost in 2004 and 2005 as a result. But by the end of 2005, only Miggy and D-Train were left standing, and it was widely viewed as Fire Sale II, deja vu for many fans in the area already traumatized by the sell off of the 1997 team.

[RuthMayBond]

And you guys had Rick "Wild Thang" Vaughn and Willie Mays Hayes and yet you still continued to have problems at the gate as well. :D Musta been all those away games in Milwaukee

<And you'll notice Marlins attendance had a noticable boost in 2004 and 2005 as a result.>

I notice they were 14th out of 16 in the NL in 2004. I guess that's a "noticeable boost". Then they really boosted to 15th out of 16 in 2005 :rolleyes:

[PeteU]

Musta been all those away games in Milwaukee

Hell, I think the next season the team moved to Baltimore, didn't it? :)

I notice they were 14th out of 16 in the NL in 2004. I guess that's a "noticeable boost". Then they really boosted to 15th out of 16 in 2005 :rolleyes:

Average attendance jumped from 16,290 to 22,091 and 22,792, respectively. That's a 29% increase, which isn't too bad. A 66% increase from the team's attendance in 2002. Not ideal by any means. But a far improvement nonetheless, and signals the potential of the fanbase to continue to grow if only the team could achieve a sense of stability and normalness, which will occur once a new stadium deal is reached.

[PeteU]

And, may I add, in 2004 the Marlins only drew a mere 91,296 less than your Cleveland Indians. And only 149,797 less in 2005. So I wouldn't be one to denegrate these numbers too much.

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/charts/attendance-al/attendance-al2004.shtml

[RuthMayBond]

and signals the potential of the fanbase to continue to grow if only the team could achieve a sense of stability and normalness, which will occur once a new stadium deal is reached.Like in Pittsburgh, Cinci, Milwaukee ... It's not killing the Cubs too badly

[RuthMayBond]

And, may I add, in 2004 the Marlins only drew a mere 91,296 less than your Cleveland Indians. And only 149,797 less in 2005. So I wouldn't be one to denegrate these numbers too much.

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/charts/attendance-al/attendance-al2004.shtmlThat's not surprising for us of the small market

[PeteU]

Like in Pittsburgh, Cinci, Milwaukee ... It's not killing the Cubs too badly

Has there been any serious talk of moving the Pirates, Reds or Brewers in the past decade?

The answer is no. Although they aren't selling out game after game (although the Brewers have recieved a boost this year due to there unexpected competitiveness), they've got an established base who will come out win or lose without the fear that their team will exit stage right next year or the year after.

Listen, I'm not saying once the Marlins get their new ballpark they'll be drawing in 3 million plus. I'm just saying that there will be a noticeable increase in the yearly draw, and that the days of 10,000 a game will very likely be something of the past.

[RuthMayBond]

Has there been any serious talk of moving the Pirates, Reds or Brewers in the past decade?Well, the Commish has kinda taken care of the Reds but they're even protesting at Pirates games now, AFTER they got the stadium

<Although they aren't selling out game after game (although the Brewers have recieved a boost this year due to there unexpected competitiveness), they've got an established base who will come out win or lose without the fear that their team will exit stage right next year or the year after.>

Those are rather small bases

<Listen, I'm not saying once the Marlins get their new ballpark they'll be drawing in 3 million plus. I'm just saying that there will be a noticeable increase in the yearly draw, and that the days of 10,000 a game will very likely be something of the past.>

Sure, in the beginning

[PeteU]

That's not surprising for us of the small market

And I'm not saying it's bad considering all the circumstances (team record, market size, etc.). It sure beats the days of 1985 when you were drawing in 8,089 a game.

[RuthMayBond]

And I'm not saying it's bad considering all the circumstances (team record, market size, etc.). It sure beats the days of 1985 when you were drawing in 8,089 a game.That's pretty good . . .
. . . for a double-A team :laugh

[PeteU]

Those are rather small bases

<Listen, I'm not saying once the Marlins get their new ballpark they'll be drawing in 3 million plus. I'm just saying that there will be a noticeable increase in the yearly draw, and that the days of 10,000 a game will very likely be something of the past.>

Sure, in the beginning

And the South Florida market, while larger than some, is still at something of a handicap in that it is narrow and thin (sandwiched between the Everglades and the Atlantic), with the dominant city (Miami) down at the very bottom. So all things considered, the optimal average attendance not including perhaps the premier season in a new ballpark, or what it was in the first two years of the franchise, might very well be somewhere in the 20,000 to 30,000 range. And that would still be considered respectable, at least I think.

And what exactly makes you think a Marlins franchise who finally gets to play in a ballpark of its own, most likely with the comforts of a retractable roof and AC, without the threat of relocation, contraction or eviction being constantly mentioned, isn't going to have sustainable decent attendance? What exactly is your argument here, other than just to be a contrarian (or perhaps still bitter about 1997)?

[RuthMayBond]

What exactly is your argument here, other than just to be a contrarian (or perhaps still bitter about 1997)?What took you so long?
At any rate, what makes you think the owners will actually spend something?

[PeteU]

What took you so long? Probably the lack of any other reason why someone from Cleveland would be so deadset against the existance of the Florida Marlins.

Don't get me wrong, I love the Clevelanders--good, hardworking people in a great, honest working-class town--but you guys tend to keep grudges going on way longer than they need to continue.

At any rate, what makes you think the owners will actually spend something?

Do you mean towards the stadium or the team? If you mean towards the stadium, that money has already been pledged--only a relatively small amount of the stadium price remains unresolved.

As to the team, I can't say for sure. I can only say now that the team would be playing in a venue of its own, before larger sized crowds, it would give the owners extra incentive to increase the payroll. Think Indians, circa 1995, versus Indians, circa 1990.

[RuthMayBond]

Probably the lack of any other reason why someone from Cleveland would be so deadset against the existance of the Florida Marlins.

Don't get me wrong, I love the Clevelanders--good, hardworking people in a great, honest working-class town--but you guys tend to keep grudges going on way longer than they need to continue.

Not near as long as you keep fantasies going. All I'm saying is that you guys have had recent multiple World Series winners and still draw poorly. You have a lot of excuses but those are the facts

[PeteU]

All I'm saying is that you guys have had recent multiple World Series winners and still draw poorly. You have a lot of excuses but those are the facts

And all I'm saying is that given the rather unique history of the Marlins franchise, you cannot simply look at the numbers and pass judgment without understanding the underlying situation of the matter. And I would think a Cleveland Indians fan of all people would better understand this.

[RuthMayBond]

And all I'm saying is that given the rather unique history of the Marlins franchise, you cannot simply look at the numbers and pass judgment without understanding the underlying situation of the matter. And I would think a Cleveland Indians fan of all people would better understand this.Why would you think a Cleveland Indians fan would have ANY understanding of being a recent multiple World Series winner? :laugh :lookitup :shrug: :confused: :noidea :think: :disbelief:

[PeteU]

Why would you think a Cleveland Indians fan would have ANY understanding of being a recent multiple World Series winner? :laugh :lookitup :shrug: :confused: :noidea :think: :disbelief:

Point taken, but in the end, N.O.P....

[wvkeeper]

And before you had a new stadium and played in a multi-purpose arena like the Marlins, you drew even worse than south Florida. Heck, I remember Pittsburgh couldn't even sell out playoff games in the 90s.

What?!?!?!!??!?!?!?

Yeah Three Rivers was not sold out much like you see Joe Robbie not sold out in those pics. They were "sold out" just not all seats were sold because not all seats were there for baseball.

[wvkeeper]

From the Florida Marlins website, the history of baseball in South Florida:

http://florida.marlins.mlb.com/fla/history/timeline2.jsp

Mar. 30-31, '91 Joe Robbie Stadium hosts two exhibition games between the New York Yankees and the Baltimore Orioles, which draw 125,013 fans. This includes a Spring Training record 67,654 sellout on the first night.

The market--and its potential--is here.

Qwest Field in Seattle sold out for a friendly between European Soccer Teams. Does that mean MLS should put a team in Seattle?

[wvkeeper]

Has there been any serious talk of moving the Pirates, Reds or Brewers in the past decade?

The answer is no. Although they aren't selling out game after game (although the Brewers have recieved a boost this year due to there unexpected competitiveness), they've got an established base who will come out win or lose without the fear that their team will exit stage right next year or the year after.

Listen, I'm not saying once the Marlins get their new ballpark they'll be drawing in 3 million plus. I'm just saying that there will be a noticeable increase in the yearly draw, and that the days of 10,000 a game will very likely be something of the past.


There was serious talk of moving the Pirates before Kevin McLatchey bought the team in 1995/6. Many thought at the time the 1995 season would be the last in Pittsburgh.

[PeteU]

Qwest Field in Seattle sold out for a friendly between European Soccer Teams. Does that mean MLS should put a team in Seattle?

I don't know. Sure. Why not? Nothing's stopping them, I guess. Go for the gold.

[PeteU]

There was serious talk of moving the Pirates before Kevin McLatchey bought the team in 1995/6. Many thought at the time the 1995 season would be the last in Pittsburgh.

Let me rephrase that for you. Was there ever any serious talk about moving the Pirates once the ink on the agreement to build PNC Park was dry?

[TJH1923]

And the South Florida market, while larger than some, is still at something of a handicap in that it is narrow and thin (sandwiched between the Everglades and the Atlantic), with the dominant city (Miami) down at the very bottom. So all things considered, the optimal average attendance not including perhaps the premier season in a new ballpark, or what it was in the first two years of the franchise, might very well be somewhere in the 20,000 to 30,000 range. And that would still be considered respectable, at least I think.

And what exactly makes you think a Marlins franchise who finally gets to play in a ballpark of its own, most likely with the comforts of a retractable roof and AC, without the threat of relocation, contraction or eviction being constantly mentioned, isn't going to have sustainable decent attendance? What exactly is your argument here, other than just to be a contrarian (or perhaps still bitter about 1997)?

I get a kick out of you. If you read every thread you have posted on Baseball Fever, you would realize you have posted every reason why Florida baseball has problems. All I hear is how humid it is, how much it rains, the number of mosquitoes, how transient the population is, how your owner sells off its talent and so on an so forth. When do the excuses run out? I really think Loria would like nothing more than to move this franchise out of south Florida. Would a new stadium really make a difference or just set up a new set of excuses? Pittsburgh and Cleveland along with Kansas City get far more play than any Florida team as far as patience goes.

[RuthMayBond]

I get a kick out of you. If you read every thread you have posted on Baseball Fever, you would realize you have posted every reason why Florida baseball has problems. All I hear is how humid it is, how much it rains, the number of mosquitoes, how transient the population is, how your owner sells off its talent and so on an so forth. When do the excuses run out? They won't. How could you forget -
the SUN was in their eyes (on a grounder) :waving

[Elvis]

What?!?!?!!??!?!?!?

Yeah Three Rivers was not sold out much like you see Joe Robbie not sold out in those pics. They were "sold out" just not all seats were sold because not all seats were there for baseball.

Not true. You could look it up.

Pirates 1990 NLCS at Three Rivers Stadium:

Game 3--att. 45,611
Game 4--att. 50,461
Game 5--att. 48,221

I remember watching that series as if it were yesterday and thinking how pathetic it was seeing all those scattered empty seats in the outfield, considering it was the friggin NLCS. They hadn't started tarping off sections at Three Rivers yet.

[nymetsgiantspolo]

Not true. You could look it up.

Pirates 1990 NLCS at Three Rivers Stadium:

Game 3--att. 45,611
Game 4--att. 50,461
Game 5--att. 48,221

I remember watching that series as if it were yesterday and thinking how pathetic it was seeing all those scattered empty seats in the outfield, considering it was the friggin NLCS. They hadn't started tarping off sections at Three Rivers yet.

The truth is that Pittsburgh market is also an oversaturated judging by the numbers... The fact is that had they not built a stadium in Pittsburgh, they might have gone "adios, good bye, and maybe that's a winner" (sorry just felt like quoting jack buck). Miami is a doable market if you put a new retractable dome in the right place (i.e. downtown miami). Otherwise, the market just isn't that strong......

This is all said, there is no doubt the Tampa market stinks and there shouldn't be a team there.

[zengator]

I get a kick out of you. If you read every thread you have posted on Baseball Fever, you would realize you have posted every reason why Florida baseball has problems. All I hear is how humid it is, how much it rains, the number of mosquitoes, how transient the population is, how your owner sells off its talent and so on an so forth. When do the excuses run out? I really think Loria would like nothing more than to move this franchise out of south Florida. Would a new stadium really make a difference or just set up a new set of excuses? Pittsburgh and Cleveland along with Kansas City get far more play than any Florida team as far as patience goes.

What I get a kick out of is you repeating on every thread how the Rays and the Marlins should move, Florida "doesn't deserve" a baseball team, yada yada :blah: , etc.

And the funny thing is, no matter how many times you or anybody else types it, or how many times you wish it was otherwise, neither team is going anywhere! :p

You want to see a major league baseball team in NC? Then get in your car and drive...

[nymetsgiantspolo]

What I get a kick out of is you repeating on every thread how the Rays and the Marlins should move, Florida "doesn't deserve" a baseball team, yada yada :blah: , etc.

And the funny thing is, no matter how many times you or anybody else types it, or how many times you wish it was otherwise, neither team is going anywhere! :p

You want to see a major league baseball team in NC? Then get in your car and drive...

TB isn't moving because of the lease.... The marlins are probably 60-40 staying, but that isn't to say that if the city and county screw up...... who knows?

[PeteU]

I get a kick out of you. If you read every thread you have posted on Baseball Fever, you would realize you have posted every reason why Florida baseball has problems. All I hear is how humid it is, how much it rains, the number of mosquitoes, how transient the population is, how your owner sells off its talent and so on an so forth. When do the excuses run out? I really think Loria would like nothing more than to move this franchise out of south Florida. Would a new stadium really make a difference or just set up a new set of excuses? Pittsburgh and Cleveland along with Kansas City get far more play than any Florida team as far as patience goes.

I have always stated that main issue with baseball in South Florida is that since 1997 there has been a percieved lack of stability in the market. The fire sales are just a part of that. The relocation and eviction rumors are also a part of that. Simply put, the fans here want to root for the Florida Marlins, not the Portland by way of Florida Marlins or New Jersey by way of Florida Marlins, or what have you. Until the future of the franchise is cemented here in South Florida, there will always be that obstacle in many people's minds.

The other issues I have brought up--the heat, the rain, the transient population, the geographic limitations--are indeed present, but secondary. I feel as though major league baseball can certainly survive in South Florida despite these obstacles. It may not translate into the team drawing 3 million year after year after year (which a team in a market the size of South Florida could otherwise be capable of doing), but I don't see these things as prohibiting the team from drawing 2 million a year, or averaging 25,000 or more per game, as is the league average. Just so long as the franchise is percieved to be stable. That comes with a new ballpark deal. Which I believe will happen.

[TJH1923]

I have always stated that main issue with baseball in South Florida is that since 1997 there has been a percieved lack of stability in the market. The fire sales are just a part of that. The relocation and eviction rumors are also a part of that. Simply put, the fans here want to root for the Florida Marlins, not the Portland by way of Florida Marlins or New Jersey by way of Florida Marlins, or what have you. Until the future of the franchise is cemented here in South Florida, there will always be that obstacle in many people's minds.

The other issues I have brought up--the heat, the rain, the transient population, the geographic limitations--are indeed present, but secondary. I feel as though major league baseball can certainly survive in South Florida despite these obstacles. It may not translate into the team drawing 3 million year after year after year (which a team in a market the size of South Florida could otherwise be capable of doing), but I don't see these things as prohibiting the team from drawing 2 million a year, or averaging 25,000 or more per game, as is the league average. Just so long as the franchise is percieved to be stable. That comes with a new ballpark deal. Which I believe will happen.

I truly believe MLB would like to see both Florida franchises do well, but as you point out, particularly with the Marlins case, is that they have a few hurdles in front of them.

[Lafferty Daniel]

I truly believe MLB would like to see both Florida franchises do well, but as you point out, particularly with the Marlins case, is that they have a few hurdles in front of them.

Here's to baseball in the country's wang.

http://go.hrw.com/atlas/norm_map/florida.gif

[PeteU]

Here's to baseball in the country's wang.

http://go.hrw.com/atlas/norm_map/florida.gif

Funny. :laugh

[donniebaseball23]

In the 2003 World Series, both the Yankees and the Marlins had won exciting 7 game league championship series to advance to the World Series. The Yankees had won against their hated rivals, the Red Sox, when Aaron Boone homered in extra innings in Game 7 of the ALCS. The Marlins were down 3 games to 1 to the Cubs at one point but had fought back. They were only a few outs away from being sent home early in Game 6 until their late inning rally. In Game 7, the Marlins again had to come back from an early deficit to clinch the series.

But in Game 1 of the World Series at Yankee Stadium, many of the banners and signs at Yankee Stadium were not focused on the Yankee's current opponent but rather meant to gloat about the Yankees' sending the Red Sox down to humiliating defeat once again. (Signs like "Babe, Bucky, Boone" and the sort.) Far fewer signs were directed at the Florida Marlins, who many Yankee fans considered to be mere lambs for the slaughter for yet another Yankee world championship.

On the other hand, when the series switched to Game 3 in Miami, the attitude of the Marlins fans was not to gloat on and on about the Marlins' come from behind defeat of the Cubs, but rather it was focused on this exciting young team defeating the heavily favored New York Yankees. This atmosphere continued to Game 4, when Marlins fans stayed late into the night to see Alex Gonzalez's shot off of Jeff Weaver to even the series. And into Game 6, when all the talk was how the series returning to Yankee Stadium would give the edge to the Yankees thanks to the concepts of "mystique" and "aura." And yet there was Josh Beckett tagging out Jorge Posada in front of what could only be described as the quietest collection of 55,773 people ever assembled, wondering much like Butch Cassidy, "Who are those guys?"

Now, I don't want to take too much of an unfair swipe against the Yankees fanbase, who I'll fully concede are great in number and team spirit. But you have to ask yourself which is the better fanbase: The one that obsesses about a past victory against a rival, a victory that very few outside of the New York metropolitian area actually cared much about? The one who assumes a younger, unknown team is simply one to roll over en route to another world championship? The one that relies on nebulous, supernatural concepts as a reason as to why it was going to win? Or the one that is not focused on past victories, no matter how great, but the current opponent and how the team has the skill to defeat them against all odds and mumbo-jumbo talk? It seems to me that the Marlins fanbase--no matter how fractured, troubled and underachieving it might be--showed itself to be far better and knowledgeable than the Yankees fanbase by their actions. At least in 2003.


Pete I usually like your posts, and you seem to be a very knowledgeable baseball fan. But cmon now. How can you even compare the two fanbases? Your team has been around for how long? Besides your 2 world series titles, there is no history there. The dig you made about us gloating over beating Boston? Of course we are going to still be giddy about it. They are our most hated rivals and we just came off a 7 game classic in the ALCS. So can you really blame us for a few signs out of 55,000+?

Besides being a huge Yankee fan, Im a huge baseball fan. Small crowds always disappoint me. It is not good for the game. It would be nice to see some teams draw better. Trust me I know small crowds at Yankee stadium too. I was at Doc Gooden's no hitter, and there could not have been more then 25,000 there. When they stunk during the late 80's/early 90's they struggled for 20,000. But if your team is struggling to even draw TEN THOUSAND, where is your fan base??

[PeteU]

Pete I usually like your posts, and you seem to be a very knowledgeable baseball fan. But cmon now. How can you even compare the two fanbases? Your team has been around for how long? Besides your 2 world series titles, there is no history there. The dig you made about us gloating over beating Boston? Of course we are going to still be giddy about it. They are our most hated rivals and we just came off a 7 game classic in the ALCS. So can you really blame us for a few signs out of 55,000+?

Besides being a huge Yankee fan, Im a huge baseball fan. Small crowds always disappoint me. It is not good for the game. It would be nice to see some teams draw better. Trust me I know small crowds at Yankee stadium too. I was at Doc Gooden's no hitter, and there could not have been more then 25,000 there. When they stunk during the late 80's/early 90's they struggled for 20,000. But if your team is struggling to even draw TEN THOUSAND, where is your fan base??

Okay, I'll admit maybe it was a little bit of a cheap shot on my part. (I guess it's the Orioles fan in me.) Still, I was just taken aback watching the Yankees fans act as though Game 7 of the 2003 ALCS was the last game of the postseason, and you just had a bonus 4-game exhibition series against the Marlins to complete before the commish handed you the trophy. I found it to be a too little presumptious, a little too entitlement-minded, for my taste. So that just always sort of annoyed me about the 2003 series. But all's well that end's well--at least for us Marlins fans. :D (And to be fair, the same could be said for Red Sox fans in 2004 after their ALCS win; the only difference is they managed to follow through in the World Series so it wasn't embarassing for them in the end.)

Fan bases in baseball will always naturally whittle down when times are viewed to be bad. Whether it is due to poor ownership and threats of relocation--as in the case of the Marlins--or ten straight losing seasons--as in the case of the Orioles--the base is bound to shrink as people get frustrated and fed up. You yourself make note of that happening in the 1980s for the Yankees, although it might not have been as acute as other teams.

The Marlins fan base has not always been as small. The first two years the team was very well attended, and following few years attendance was acceptable albeit not as large. It's different from, say, the Seattle Mariners, who never drew an average of 20,000+ a game until 1991, 14 years into the team's existence (but these days draw higher than the league average, proving there is hope for any market).

The problem with the Marlins is that they never were able to enjoy the 1997 World Series, and rumors of relocation started pretty soon after that point. And the 2003 World Series helped bring attendance up to a point which was closer to normal for a couple of seasons, but it did not stop all the rumors about relocating the team to San Antonio or Las Vegas or Portland. So the state of the franchise has been constantly in flux for nearly a decade now, and that is going to wear down a fan base, no matter what city the team is in.

[Gary Dunaier]

I was just taken aback watching the Yankees fans act as though Game 7 of the 2003 ALCS was the last game of the postseason, and you just had a bonus 4-game exhibition series against the Marlins to complete before the commish handed you the trophy.
You probably won't like hearing this, but that's kinda how I felt about last season and Game 7 of the NLDS. As soon as the Mets were eliminated, I lost interest.

I found it to be a too little presumptious, a little too entitlement-minded, for my taste.
What can I say... I'm a fan! :gt

[donniebaseball23]

Okay, I'll admit maybe it was a little bit of a cheap shot on my part. (I guess it's the Orioles fan in me.) Still, I was just taken aback watching the Yankees fans act as though Game 7 of the 2003 ALCS was the last game of the postseason, and you just had a bonus 4-game exhibition series against the Marlins to complete before the commish handed you the trophy. I found it to be a too little presumptious, a little too entitlement-minded, for my taste. So that just always sort of annoyed me about the 2003 series. But all's well that end's well--at least for us Marlins fans. :D (And to be fair, the same could be said for Red Sox fans in 2004 after their ALCS win; the only difference is they managed to follow through in the World Series so it wasn't embarassing for them in the end.)

Fan bases in baseball will always naturally whittle down when times are viewed to be bad. Whether it is due to poor ownership and threats of relocation--as in the case of the Marlins--or ten straight losing seasons--as in the case of the Orioles--the base is bound to shrink as people get frustrated and fed up. You yourself make note of that happening in the 1980s for the Yankees, although it might not have been as acute as other teams.

The Marlins fan base has not always been as small. The first two years the team was very well attended, and following few years attendance was acceptable albeit not as large. It's different from, say, the Seattle Mariners, who never drew an average of 20,000+ a game until 1991, 14 years into the team's existence (but these days draw higher than the league average, proving there is hope for any market).

The problem with the Marlins is that they never were able to enjoy the 1997 World Series, and rumors of relocation started pretty soon after that point. And the 2003 World Series helped bring attendance up to a point which was closer to normal for a couple of seasons, but it did not stop all the rumors about relocating the team to San Antonio or Las Vegas or Portland. So the state of the franchise has been constantly in flux for nearly a decade now, and that is going to wear down a fan base, no matter what city the team is in.


I totally agree with you about the fans not being able to enjoy the world series wins. If George ever did that after one the late 90's wins, it would break my heart. Marlins fans are probably scared to root for great young players (Willis, Cabrera, Ramirez) because they are afraid ownership will have another fire sale at the blink of an eye.

I also agree with the majority of people in this thread. I think a new ballpark would do wonders for the Marlins. Downtown Miami, new ballpark?? Who wouldn't want to go. That point you made about the Mariners, look what Safeco did for them. If you build a nice ballpark and your team stinks, you will still draw decent.

[sflnyc]

I've been away for a while, but without rehashing pages of posts, I basically agree with what my fellow South Florida resident PeteU has posted.

Only problem with the Downtown Ballpark idea is that it can't happen in South Florida. West Palm Beach is too far north (70 miles from downtown Miami) and the ideal centrally located downtown for South Florida: Fort Lauderdale (26 miles from Miami; 44 from WPB) is not a realistic set-up as all of the waterways have million dollar mansions and condos already existing, the populace of which tend to be more interested in the arts and opera rather than sports.

That leaves downtown Miami where I worked for 3 years. The location (Bicentennial Park) adjacent to the Miami Heat arena has always been my favorite, but that land has been designated for museums and arts type of stuff. Would have been AT&T Park East. Worst of all, that over the past 3-4 years, several massive 50-story condos have all been built right there on the waterfront across the street. More of the artsy set, who would none be too pleased to have an ugly (to them) baseball stadium blocking their view of the cruise ships and Miami Beach beyond.

I have nothing against the arts, etc. but do have something against the high brow set, who have no problem spending $600+ million for the Carnival Airlines Performing Arts Center for 3-4,000 snobs (which opened last year and I believe is bleeding profusely in red ink) with public dollars, but cringe at spending those same public dollars for baseball stadiums for the regular guy, and then bring up lack of money for schools, cops, etc. There are 3 counties down here, all of which feel the need to have their own Opera Center (Broward Center in Broward and Kravitz Center in Palm Beach). But to me, to dedicate an acreage like that to museums is a waste. They don't need the water view of the bay. A museum would do perfectly fine inland in another location of downtown.

OK, that's my rant.

[sflnyc]

Here are some aerials of the part of Downtown Miami in question (north of the Miami River) from the City of Miami GIS website (www.miamigis.com). The first one is blank save for my edits showing the location of the Miami Heat AAArena, the Performing Arts Center and Bicentennial Park where the stadium SHOULD BE. You can even see the remains of the street circuit ract track where the Miami Grand Prix used to be held.


Second photo shows the locations of all the current and proposed projects in that area. Basically, its a lot of high rise condos to the west of the park and north around the Performing Arts Center. Ah, what could have been if it was started back in 1999 when first proposed, prior to the real estate condo boom. Funny thing is, all these condos cost $400-$600 million themselves to build (all private money of course), but the poor-boy not rich enough owners of the Marlins aren't thrilled about having to spend only $40-$50 million of their own money.

[Sean O]

In regards to the performing arts center, i'm going to take a completely uneducated guess that the theatre will help the real estate prices in the area, while some people will be leery about the traffic, noise and fan elements of a stadium.

Also, is a private organization getting any theoretical profits of this center? If it's governmentally owned, then that's a bit of a different situation.

[sflnyc]

Actually, the traffic downtown is already a nightmare, especially during games/concerts at the AAA. Events at the Carnival Center cause traffic jams also, and it was designed without parking spaces. Parking for the Center is at the adjacent Miami Herald building among others, to be utilized when the office workers, etc. go home.

I believe the Center is owned by Miami-Dade County and run by a private organization. Just this week, the Center asked the County Commission for another $4 million in hotel bed tax money to cover operating costs.

[Yankees73]

In 1916, only 23 people showed up for a Philadelphia Phillies game at Shibe Park:

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/stadium/st_shibe.shtml

I'm pretty sure Griffith Stadium had a crowd of about 45 or so in either the depression era or the 1930s.

In 1933, the St. Louis Browns had only 88,133 fans for the entire season. Average attendance was 1,152:

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/teams/baltatte.shtml

In 2003, the Mighty New York Yankees, on their way to a World Series appearance, had a relatively small crowd of 8,848 in a game against the Blue Jays. To be fair, however, it was a make-up game.

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/articles/2003/09/09/yankees_make_noise_before_sparse_crowd?mode=PF

Actually, paid attendance will almost always be less than actual attendance, and in some cases, substantially so. My guess is if the standard bearer for attendance was on actual attendance, several teams would be in 4 figure averages. Hey Pete, wasn't that makeup game in 03 an Oriole /Yankee game? I remember that being a late season game and it was a super small crowd. It was also the makeup game originally slated in Baltimore and the game actually started with an impending hurricane! I remember Sterling being aghast it was even starting!! Anyway I went to the makeup with my daughter at the stadium.. She was 4 at the time and took really great pictures with a disposable camera. I've gotta try to track tose down and post them.

[Chevy114]

Everytime we are at a rays game with a small crowd, there is always some group of people in the very top section by themselves. I always wonder if they are being funny or are too scared to leave their seats?

[aqib]

PeteU,

The comparisons to other markets don't hold water. First of all a lot of the markets you mentioned have had severe economic difficulties, population losses, and long losing histories at the times periods you mentioned. Yeah the Indians didn't draw in the late 80s early 90s, but at that time the team hadn't even made the post season since 1954 and still hasn't won the World Series since 1948. FLorida has been booming in population for a generation and the economy has performed well at least relative to the other cities you mentioned.

The Marlins, have been screaming for a new ballpark since 97. Had the city gotten its act together you might not have seen the massive selloff in 98. You have now had 3 different owners make attempts to get a stadium built and have been told no each time. A new stadium may give you a little pop for a short time but its not going to solve the problem of Floridians not being the loyal sports fans that cities in the north are. I lived in Miami from 84-87 and I remember a Dolphins playoff game where they had to extend the blackout deadline in order to have the game televised. Keep in mind the following:

1) This is when the Dolphins were in the Orange Bowl which held under 60K fans

2) There were no Marlins, Heat or Panthers. Football was the only game in town

3) The Dolphins were reigning AFC Champs at the time.

You can point out how well the team drew in the first 2 years when it was a novelty, or in the two playoff runs but the reality is you can't build a business on "we draw when we go to the playoffs" because the majority of the teams don't make the playoffs.

Part of this is MLBs fault for agreeing to put a team in that stadium with its obvious flaws for baseball. But you've had a team for 15 years and the fans and city still haven't gotten their act together. If it doesn't get done at this point its time to consider moving elsewhere. The 3rd team in NY isn't a bad idea to consider.

[six4three]

Florida baseball has been nothing less than a disaster. I really thought that Miami could do well, but the results so far are not good.


The Marlins, have been screaming for a new ballpark since 97. Had the city gotten its act together you might not have seen the massive selloff in 98.

I hear lots of complaints about the fire sale, but if a "massive selloff" could lead to a World Championship three years later, please feel free to do it to all my favorite teams.

[stlfan]

but if a "massive selloff" could lead to a World Championship three years later, please feel free to do it to all my favorite teams.

I'd have to disagree with this statement. As much as I would love to have frequent championships, I enjoy going to games year after year with the comfort that in most cases the same guys will be taking the field. Free agency in a way harmed team loyalty and gone were the days where a fan could cheer their superstar throughout their whole career and develop a huge bond with that player as well as the team. I would hate seeing new players every year even if it meant a championship. I think most fans, especially those in cities like St. Louis, NY & Chicago where there is a huge baseball tradition, would feel less connected to the TEAM since there wouldn't be a face to the franchise. I couldn't imagine the Cardinals present era without the face of Pujols just as those Yankees fans couldn't imagine their present era without the face of Jeter.

[six4three]

Yes, free agency changed baseball forever. But Pujols will retire some day. So will Jeter. Times change.

You're talking about sentiment over performance. Not a good way to run a ballclub.

Every now and then, you have to make drastic changes in order to field a competitive club. Frankly, the Yanks (since you raise Jeter) have been very bad at this in recent years, hanging on to players who probably shouldn't be on the payroll.

[jC...]

I went to a Dodgers-Expos game in 2001. It was me and 4,758 other people. They showed me on the JumboTron :dance. Of course....I think everyone got on the JumboTron that night. I actually liked going up to Montreal to see games. You could have front row seats cheap. And its like they were playing the game just for you! If it wasn't such a pain to get over the border (well..not so much going to Canada, its coming back to the USA) I would have went more. I would have liked to seen the Expos and Rays swap leagues. When the Yankees and Red Sox played in Montreal the place was always sold out. Sure it doesnt do much for their fan base but the stands would be packed more. Plus a Marlins-Rays rivalry may have been good for baseball in Florida. Okay...nuff of my rant. GO YANKEES!

[stlfan]

Frankly, the Yanks (since you raise Jeter) have been very bad at this in recent years, hanging on to players who probably shouldn't be on the payroll.

Actually, the Yankees are a prime example of the problems of buying big name players instead of fielding home grown talents. Call me wrong but in the late 90's when they won all of those championships, weren't the Yankees mainly comprised of home grown talent instead of overpriced superstars that inflated the payroll?

It seems that in the early 2000's is when they started picking off superstars from other teams and paying top dollar for them. They still made the playoffs but never won it all after 2000. Their greed for these players has been the downfall of MLB since. Now you have clubs forking over everything for players because they don't want to get out bid, therefore driving the cost of all payrolls up. And most of these large contract players acquired by teams haven't panned out. Look at the Tigers this season for crying out loud.

[PeteU]

PeteU,


Part of this is MLBs fault for agreeing to put a team in that stadium with its obvious flaws for baseball. But you've had a team for 15 years and the fans and city still haven't gotten their act together. If it doesn't get done at this point its time to consider moving elsewhere. The 3rd team in NY isn't a bad idea to consider.


You're about three months too late to the argument. The new ballpark is happening, like it or not.

I don't ever expect the South Florida market to be the perfect market for baseball. But I don't think it's been allowed to showcase its potential, which may very turn out that the market is pretty good nonetheless. With a new ballpark of its own, I think that finally gives them the chance.

And I still believe the third team in New York/New Jersey is a non-starter at this point, that the Mets and Yankees will never see it happen, and frankly I'm glad for that fact.

[sturg1dj]

Actually, the Yankees are a prime example of the problems of buying big name players instead of fielding home grown talents. Call me wrong but in the late 90's when they won all of those championships, weren't the Yankees mainly comprised of home grown talent instead of overpriced superstars that inflated the payroll?

It seems that in the early 2000's is when they started picking off superstars from other teams and paying top dollar for them. They still made the playoffs but never won it all after 2000. Their greed for these players has been the downfall of MLB since. Now you have clubs forking over everything for players because they don't want to get out bid, therefore driving the cost of all payrolls up. And most of these large contract players acquired by teams haven't panned out. Look at the Tigers this season for crying out loud.


um...the Yankees of the 90's were not as homegrown as you may think

1996 starting 9 as listed by baseball-reference
C Joe Girardi - drafted by cubs...played for cubs and rockies prior
1B - Tino Martinez - Mariners
2B - Mariano Duncan - LA
3B - Wade Boggs - Red Sox
SS - Derek Jeter - homegrown
OF - Gerald Williams - homegrown
OF - Bernie Williams - homegrown
OF - Paul O'Neil - Reds
OF - Ruben Sierra - Rangers
C -Jim Leyritz - homegrown
1B - Cecil Fielder - Blue Jays (by way of Tigers)
OF - Tim Raines - Expos
OF - Darryl Strawberry - Mets

P - Andy Pettite - homegrown
P - Jimmy Key - Blue Jays
P - Kenny Rogers - rangers
P - Dwight Gooden - Mets
CL - John Wetteland - Expos




and to go further back.......on the 1977 team how many of the players with at least 100 AB's were drafted by the Yankees

out of the 12

2 were

Thurman Munson
Roy White

[btown12]

And I still believe the third team in New York/New Jersey is a non-starter at this point, that the Mets and Yankees will never see it happen, and frankly I'm glad for that fact.

Agreed, that's got to be the silliest idea ever, haha. Who would root for another team in that area? Where would the fans come from? Everyone from NJ up through New England, if they're a baseball fan, is a Yankees, Mets, Phils, or Red Sox fan already (not figuring in transplants obviously).

[sturg1dj]

isn't that also the problem with Florida fans...so many are transplants or their parent's are transplants...and with the lack of a team for as many years as there were baseball fans also had to choose a team to root for already instead of having a "natural" team to root for

[PeteU]

isn't that also the problem with Florida fans...so many are transplants or their parent's are transplants...and with the lack of a team for as many years as there were baseball fans also had to choose a team to root for already instead of having a "natural" team to root for

Transplanted fans and transplanted loyalties is a big problem in Florida, no doubt, given that a lot of people from the Northeast do move down here. Of course, that gets played up here--I think both the Tampa Bay area and South Florida have Yankees broadcasts, which is just sad.

I grew up in Maryland as an Orioles fan. I'll always be an Orioles fan. But living in South Florida now, there is a major league baseball team that I feel lucky to have. So I've had no qualms adopting the Marlins as my National League team. And while the Rays also play in the same division as the O's, I'd much rather see them take the AL East title than the Yankees or Red Sox yet again (fat chance, but still). When in Rome.....or to paraphrase Steven Stills, if you can't be with the team you love, love the team you're with.

I just wish more baseball fans down here would take that to heart.

[zengator]

Transplanted fans and transplanted loyalties is a big problem in Florida, no doubt, given that a lot of people from the Northeast do move down here. Of course, that gets played up here--I think both the Tampa Bay area and South Florida have Yankees broadcasts, which is just sad.

I grew up in Maryland as an Orioles fan. I'll always be an Orioles fan. But living in South Florida now, there is a major league baseball team that I feel lucky to have. So I've had no qualms adopting the Marlins as my National League team. And while the Rays also play in the same division as the O's, I'd much rather see them take the AL East title than the Yankees or Red Sox yet again (fat chance, but still). When in Rome.....or to paraphrase Steven Stills, if you can't be with the team you love, love the team you're with.

I just wish more baseball fans down here would take that to heart.

You're exactly right. I work with a guy who's a Rays fan... except when the Redsox come to town, at which point he puts on his "B" cap and cheers for Manny & Co. And he's far from the only one.

That kinda stuff gives me an odd combination of rage, pity, and indigestion.

[PeteU]

You're exactly right. I work with a guy who's a Rays fan... except when the Redsox come to town, at which point he puts on his "B" cap and cheers for Manny & Co. And he's far from the only one.

That kinda stuff gives me an odd combination of rage, pity, and indigestion.

At least he's willing to root for the home team most of the time (i.e. when the Sox aren't in town). Some folks refuse to root for their adoptive hometown team at all.

[Sean O]

At least he's willing to root for the home team most of the time (i.e. when the Sox aren't in town). Some folks refuse to root for their adoptive hometown team at all.

Right. I lived in Philly for a year, and even though I'm a die-hard Sox fan from the Boston area, Philly is definitely my adopted (or NL) team. I hit up a number of Phillies games and cheered for them every date but the Sox series.

It's better to give some support than none at all. I see no issue with having a sequence of favorite teams.

[aqib]

You're about three months too late to the argument. The new ballpark is happening, like it or not.


Over the last decade I have heard a bunch of times. Until I see a groundbreaking I am not buying it.

[Chevy114]

I think you guys could say the same thing about a transplanted team in dc since its been years since the senators, turning most locals into orieols fans. Yet dc got a new stadium to make sure they last.

It is weird to see transplanted fans in tampa. I watched the rays game last night when I got home and when the yankees won, there were more cheers than should be for a home team loss. It gets annoying, but I guess its like muhammad ali said, "Half of the fans are there boo me and half are there to cheer me on, but I still sell out every venue!"

[PeteU]

Over the last decade I have heard a bunch of times. Until I see a groundbreaking I am not buying it.

Unlike all previous attempts by the Marlins to get a new ballpark, this time all the funding is in place. The Orange Bowl is half demolished at this point. I believe there was recently a comprimise between the city and county regarding policing.

The only thing that could remotely derail it is the lawsuit filed by former Philadelphia Eagles owner Norm Braman, and I'd handicap the chances of success of that being 5% at most.

Bottom line is the Marlins are getting a new ballpark.

[howiek]

I went to the opener for the Marlins in 2006 and also went to game 2 the next day and couldn't believe the difference in crowd size in 1 day.
I looked it up on retrosheet and for the opener they had 31,308 and for the
next game which was also vs. Pads they only 8,994. Is a new Stadium going to make a difference? I'm not sure. There are to many other attractions in Florida.

[Chevy114]

I went to the opener for the Marlins in 2006 and also went to game 2 the next day and couldn't believe the difference in crowd size in 1 day.
I looked it up on retrosheet and for the opener they had 31,308 and for the
next game which was also vs. Pads they only 8,994. Is a new Stadium going to make a difference? I'm not sure. There are to many other attractions in Florida.

They say that all the time, but don't other sports draw well in florida? Football, basketball, and hockey?

[xtimx]

Unlike all previous attempts by the Marlins to get a new ballpark, this time all the funding is in place. The Orange Bowl is half demolished at this point. I believe there was recently a comprimise between the city and county regarding policing.

The only thing that could remotely derail it is the lawsuit filed by former Philadelphia Eagles owner Norm Braman, and I'd handicap the chances of success of that being 5% at most.

Bottom line is the Marlins are getting a new ballpark.

the real question is, if you build it, will they come?

[PeteU]

I went to the opener for the Marlins in 2006 and also went to game 2 the next day and couldn't believe the difference in crowd size in 1 day.
I looked it up on retrosheet and for the opener they had 31,308 and for the
next game which was also vs. Pads they only 8,994. Is a new Stadium going to make a difference? I'm not sure. There are to many other attractions in Florida.

A new ballpark will make a difference. It may not be an enormous difference--I doubt that the new ballpark will be a sold out capacity crowd on a day after day basis. But it will bring the club back to a level more in line with the league average, and maybe a little bit over the average should things be run well.

As I've always said, what the Marlins have lacked most over their 15 years--and what has contributed most to low attendance figures--is a lack of stability. Despite having some great players and some great teams, the team has been frustrated with constant sell-offs and veiled threats of moving. This has only served to turn off fans. Now that the Marlins will be given a solid lease to play in a new ballpark of their very own, it will go a long way to finally allowing the baseball fans of the area to truly embrace the team as a home team and not just a loaner.

Plus, you can also argue that with the new ballpark having a retractable roof, that will alievate the fears of fans who worry about rainouts. That may be offset by the fact that the new ballpark may be further away from Broward and Palm Beach counties; on the other hand, the new ballpark will be located in Little Havana, quite a baseball loving hotbed knowing the Cubans.

[xtimx]

a new stadium is not a cure-all for low performing teams. look at the nationals. way less than 20,000 people for the second game in a BRAND NEW stadium.

[PeteU]

a new stadium is not a cure-all for low performing teams. look at the nationals. way less than 20,000 people for the second game in a BRAND NEW stadium.

No it's not.

But even if the Marlins were to only draw the league average (25,000 or so) it would represent a nice bump in attendance.

Plus the revenues from what the Marlins would be getting from the new ballpark are infinitely more than what they get at Dolphin Stadium, where they get little to none from luxury boxes, parking, advertising and concession intakes. At the new ballpark they get all of this.

[Knick9]

No, a new shiney ballpark will not make the difference. The point that some people still miss is that just because a new ballpark is made, does not automatically mean that fans will get up and go and warm up to it at the snap of a finger. If the team continues to stink 24/7, then why should the fans care? The FO isn't giving them a reason to go.

Newer doesn't always equal success. I can still name numerous flaws these new ballparks have that they could've easily avoided.

Case in point, Tampa Bay hasn't had success since day #1, and they've been a horrible model of how to run a franchise. Aside from the other reasons, it's not hard to figure out why fans aren't going to the Trop. They're not winning.

And thanks for the one mentioning Washington. Big turnout in game 1, but in game 2 and on they go away faster than tumbleweed! Baltimore's inevitable collapse will come, it's only a matter of time. Oriole Park is very vacant even now and you can tell why.

[RuthMayBond]

Pittsburgh with arguably the best park isn't exactly sellout city every night

[steveironcity]

Pittsburgh with arguably the best park isn't exactly sellout city every night
I was at the game on 4-10 and there couldnt have been more that 10,000 people there. I like that sometimes though, Its nice to be able to move around and breathe.

[Chevy114]

No, a new shiny ballpark will not make the difference. The point that some people still miss is that just because a new ballpark is made, does not automatically mean that fans will get up and go and warm up to it at the snap of a finger. If the team continues to stink 24/7, then why should the fans care? The FO isn't giving them a reason to go.

Newer doesn't always equal success. I can still name numerous flaws these new ballparks have that they could've easily avoided.

Case in point, Tampa Bay hasn't had success since day #1, and they've been a horrible model of how to run a franchise. Aside from the other reasons, it's not hard to figure out why fans aren't going to the Trop. They're not winning.

And thanks for the one mentioning Washington. Big turnout in game 1, but in game 2 and on they go away faster than tumbleweed! Baltimore's inevitable collpase will come, it's only a matter of time. Oriole Park is very vacant even now and you can tell why.


3 other issues with the lack of rays success:

1. They are only 10 years old, at least with the bucs they have been around long enough to have a fan base through thick and thin, same with other mlb teams that have been around for a while.
2. The stadium is too far away from the major city without public transportation. No one wants to drive 45 minutes for 60 home games. At least the yanks, mets, red sox, cubs, etc. all have subways and trains to get you to the game from anywhere outside of the stadium area.
3. Parking sucks. I don't like driving 45 minutes, sitting in 30 more minutes of traffic just to park what feels like 2 miles away after a day of work.

Im not saying lossing isn't an issue, but even if they start winning before the new stadium, its going to be hard to convince people to suffer through that.

[Solair Wright]

To get back on topic, didn't Comiskey Park II had only 750 people there one game sometime in April 1997?

[RuthMayBond]

To get back on topic, didn't Comiskey Park II had only 750 people there one game sometime in April 1997?Correct as usual, King Friday

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CHW/1997_sched.shtml

[J.R.]

To get back on topic, didn't Comiskey Park II had only 750 people there one game sometime in April 1997?

This was a huge embarrassment to the game at the time. ESPN kept showing highlights over and over, aghast that so few would turn out to see Roger Clemens pitch.

To be fair to the Sox fans, the game had been hastily bumped up from a night start to the afternoon.

[Lafferty Daniel]

No, a new shiny ballpark will not make the difference. The point that some people still miss is that just because a new ballpark is made, does not automatically mean that fans will get up and go and warm up to it at the snap of a finger. If the team continues to stink 24/7, then why should the fans care? The FO isn't giving them a reason to go.

Newer doesn't always equal success. I can still name numerous flaws these new ballparks have that they could've easily avoided.

Case in point, Tampa Bay hasn't had success since day #1, and they've been a horrible model of how to run a franchise. Aside from the other reasons, it's not hard to figure out why fans aren't going to the Trop. They're not winning.

And thanks for the one mentioning Washington. Big turnout in game 1, but in game 2 and on they go away faster than tumbleweed! Baltimore's inevitable collpase will come, it's only a matter of time. Oriole Park is very vacant even now and you can tell why.

Except that things have changed in Tampa Bay where they now have the best farm system in baseball. Logoria, Price, McGee, Davis, Niemann, Jennings, Brignac, and Sonnanstine are names you should know if you follow baseball.

[Knick9]

^ And still 4th and 5th place finishes to boot being in a division with the Yankees and Red Sox, so that highly valued farm system is for naught at the end of the day. As long as you can't make a run at any legitimate big time player in free agency, you will struggle.

Those are only hopes and expectations. You hope and expect the young players to make an impact, but if you can't jump over the hurdles in Boston and New York, then you're going nowhere.

[zengator]

^ And still 4th and 5th place finishes to boot being in a division with the Yankees and Red Sox, so that highly valued farm system is for naught at the end of the day. As long as you can't make a run at any legitimate big time player in free agency, you will struggle.

Those are only hopes and expectations. You hope and expect the young players to make an impact, but if you can't jump over the hurdles in Boston and New York, then you're going nowhere.


Actually, if you look at the standings, the Rays are only a half-game back of NY... with 10 guys on the DL.

If Hughes and Kennedy and the bullpen don't shape up, the team without the "big team free agent" will be the one looking down at the team full of geezers and failed prospects.

[six4three]

Actually, if you look at the standings, the Rays are only a half-game back of NY... with 10 guys on the DL.

Awfully early, though. Past seasons are replete with bad teams getting off to good starts.

As the saying goes, it's a marathon, not a sprint. We'll see where the Devil Rays are at the All-Star break, and then again in September.

[Chevy114]

I have always been told not to worry about the standings in the first month. So thats what Im doing and hope the rays win a few more.

[Lpeters199]

Small crowd in Cleveland, 1967.

[RuthMayBond]

,,,,,,,,,,,What happened with the pic? :shrug:

[Brandon]

I've seen a couple hundred people in Kauffman Stadium for a game. Granted, it was a high school game. (I don't think anybody really sat past the dugouts on either side).

Although, I don't think KC has drawn under 1000 at home ever. Maybe the A's have while in KC, though.

[RuthMayBond]

I've seen a couple hundred people in Kauffman Stadium for a game. Granted, it was a high school game. (I don't think anybody really sat past the dugouts on either side).They do that in Cleveland too

<Although, I don't think KC has drawn under 1000 at home ever. Maybe the A's have while in KC, though.>

I know they did in Oakland

[Lpeters199]

Fixed the pic--now trying to add the caption.

[RuthMayBond]

Small crowd in Cleveland, 1967.

49458Must have been this game

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/CLE/CLE196709090.shtml

[Lpeters199]

That's the date according to the Corbis caption. I haven't been able to post the caption, but if you search "1967 baseball" on Corbis, you'll be able to find it.

[RuthMayBond]

That's the date according to the Corbis caption. I haven't been able to post the caption, but if you search "1967 baseball" on Corbis, you'll be able to find it.You're right, that had even lower attendance

[PeteU]

Small crowd in Cleveland, 1967.

49458

That's horrible! I demand the Indians be moved to Portland/Las Vegas/Charlotte/Nashville/Indianapolis/New York RIGHT NOW!!!!

Oh, wait.....:rofl:

[DrBear]

I think one reason Washington is having problems is the same reason posted about Florida - a lot of people from someplace else. D.C. after all is a city based on government, with people coming from all over the country to work there. (Yes, there are a lot of D.C. locals, but many of them can't afford tickets, especially at the high prices in a new stadium, and the suburban locals are probably staying away because the stadium is in an older neighborhood that is being revived, and there isn't parking.)

[Pelt]

I think one reason Washington is having problems is the same reason posted about Florida - a lot of people from someplace else. D.C. after all is a city based on government, with people coming from all over the country to work there. (Yes, there are a lot of D.C. locals, but many of them can't afford tickets, especially at the high prices in a new stadium, and the suburban locals are probably staying away because the stadium is in an older neighborhood that is being revived, and there isn't parking.)

When I was in the Marine Corps, I was stationed for five years at Quantico, VA. And I'll tell you right now, I took any chance of avoiding a drive to DC. The traffic in the DC 'metroland' area absolutely sucks, especially when the only real routes into DC, from the south, are Route 1 and I-95 (Which are usually parking lots on a good day).

[PeteU]

When I was in the Marine Corps, I was stationed for five years at Quantico, VA. And I'll tell you right now, I took any chance of avoiding a drive to DC. The traffic in the DC 'metroland' area absolutely sucks, especially when the only real routes into DC, from the south, are Route 1 and I-95 (Which are usually parking lots on a good day).

Not to mention the streets in DC itself, which are just about the most illogically planned streets every imagined, not to mention filled with pot holes and detours galore.

All that aside, I wouldn't classify Washington DC as a failure. Mediocre, yes, but not a failure. I don't see them as any threat to run out prior to the expiration of the lease 30 or so years in the future.

[Pelt]

Not to mention the streets in DC itself, which are just about the most illogically planned streets every imagined...

I BLAME THE MASONS!!!! (shakes fist)

[Lpeters199]

Small crowds:

[RuthMayBond]

52127

52128Dang, was at least the second one Cleveland Municipal Stadium (and do you have dates on them?)

[PeteU]

Dang, was at least the second one Cleveland Municipal Stadium (and do you have dates on them?)

Looks like Ebbets Field to me.

[Lpeters199]

Dang, was at least the second one Cleveland Municipal Stadium (and do you have dates on them?)
The first picture is Oakland Coliseum, and the second is Ebbets Field, as PeteU mentions above. I'll try to relocate them on the Internet and see if they have dates.

[RuthMayBond]

The first picture is Oakland Coliseum, and the second is Ebbets Field, as PeteU mentions above. I'll try to relocate them on the Internet and see if they have dates.Maybe the first one is this

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/OAK/OAK197904170.shtml

[Lpeters199]

Maybe the first one is this

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/OAK/OAK197904170.shtml
653? Surprising! Usually teams don't admit to crowds that small. Good find!