Freakshow
09-11-2007, 09:21 AM
Welcome to Baseball Fever's Mock HOF VC Election for 2008. This is the 22nd election in a project to conduct Hall of Fame VC elections from 1987-2011 (and perhaps beyond). You're being asked to play the role of a VC voter, as if you were actually part of the VC conclave. The goal of this project is to elect the best candidate each time, with the knowledge you are applying a lower standard than used for the BBWAA elections. These elections will not consider players already elected in BBF Mock BBWAA elections, such as Ashburn, Santo, Allen, Cepeda and Minoso.
This post will provide two things:
1) The Format and Rules
2) A Guide for the 2008 election
Format and Rules
- The HOF VC never published an actual ballot, and the results of their voting were not compiled for public consumption. At the same time, they rarely considered players who retired over 70 years ago, preferring guys they fondly remembered seeing. Thus, our focus will be towards 20th century players they should have been considering. Our ballot will allow them a 52-year window of retirees (1935-1986 for this election); players retiring before this can continue on the ballot so long as they are well supported. This will eliminate players whose careers began in the 19th century. As the actual VC did, we considered those players in separate ballots 1995-2001. The VC was also giving short shrift to Negro league candidates at this time. Again, we considered those players in separate balloting 1995-2006.
- We will have a 28-player ballot for this election, up from 27 in 2007. I will act as the screening committee. You can suggest other candidates, of course, and if I get a second for a candidate I’ll add him to the next ballot. This number will mainly decline as we proceed with elections, but we will always list at least 25 candidates. Close attention will be paid to identifying candidates who are in their last two years of eligibility (1935-36 retirees for the 2008 election).
- Voters may vote for between 1-28 candidates; you’re free to support anyone you think is deserving of the Hall. Because we are electing only one player each time, voters will have complete freedom to support everyone they like. This policy is consistent with the VC rules in force at the time.
- A "None of the Above" option is not available. We operate under the premise that the continued existence of a veterans committee establishes a fait accompli, that it is an acknowledgment that there are worthy players who should be elected. Our mandate is to identify the best ones, so figure out which players deserve the honor and vote for them. (The words above the poll, “but at least five,” are a suggestion and not a requirement, that we might have a better chance of fulfilling our mandate and actually electing a few guys.)
- We will enshrine the leading vote-getter so long as he is supported by a majority of the voters (more than 50% needed); but only one player per year maximum. If two or more players with +50% tie for first place, the one with better support in recent elections will be enshrined.
- Players will ensure their continuing on the ballot as long as they average 15% support over three years (candidates failing this requirement will sometimes be added back to the ballot to reach the 25-player minimum or if they’re deemed deserving of another chance). Players in their final year eligible will be allowed to continue beyond that as long as they average 20% support. We’ll also give new candidates a chance to build some momentum: players drawing less than 15% may also continue on the ballot if their vote percentage equals or exceeds three times their years eligible. Look at that in chart form:
Yr 1 needs 3%
Yr 2 needs 6%
Yr 3 needs 9%
Yr 4 needs 12%
Yr 5 needs 15%
- This thread is also meant to be a discussion thread, so please feel free to stump for and/or against players, including players that will come up for election in the following year.
- When figuring a candidate’s worthiness, everything counts, the sum of their lifetime in baseball. Some players have significant manager credit; others, like Curt Flood and Lefty O’Doul, made contributions that nearly surpassed their playing career.
- The election will normally close ten days after it starts. The next election might not commence for another day or two.
- IMPORTANT: There is some concern about voters defrauding this process by voting with multiple screen names. First, please don't as there is really no point and it takes the fun out of this which is to see how we come out, more than it being a heated competition to get your player elected. Nevertheless, to take precaution against the possibility of a voter abusing the process, votes will be made public, so if we see unfamiliar screen names casting similar ballots, we'll see cause for concern, and if the concern proves to be founded, some form of punitive action could follow. So basically, ONE PERSON = ONE BALLOT. Anything else is really just moronic and defeats the purpose.
- MORE IMPORTANT: Remember, this is not an election of the BBF VC; this is not the place to express your personal feelings as to where the line should be drawn for the Hall of Fame. You’re playing the role of a HOF VC voter. You go into that room with a list of players that you're supporting - nobody goes in there with the aim of objecting to every candidate brought up. By requesting, insisting, agitating for at least five votes, I'm trying to impress this reality on our electorate here: you've gotta support some guys. I am also asking voters to be sensitive to the consensus of who the top candidates are (see chart below) and try to support them. I've even taken the unpleasant step of singling out ballots that are obviously contrary to our aim.
Given the standards established through seven decades of voting, it’s clear that the BBWAA missed some guys that are over the line for the Hall. However, there aren’t any no-brainers on here; we’re dealing with players closer to the Hall’s in-out line. Careful study of the candidates is required to determine the ins from the outs. If you’re not up to this, please, no off-the-top-of-my-head ballots. Don’t just cast a contrarian ballot without good reasoning. If that means fewer ballots, that’s fine. I would rather have an informed vote of 12 ballots then a quick-and-dirty vote of 52 ballots. We need voters who are on board with the mission. Ballots that are judged to be frivolous or an obstruction to our goal of electing someone may be deleted from the poll.
2008 Guide
There are 28 candidates on the 2008 ballot. They mainly played their final game in the period 1935 to 1986. Here's some information regarding them:
Top Vote-getters in the 2001-2007 Elections
15 bal 17 bal 20 bal 9 bal 24 bal 21 bal 18 bal
2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007
Joe Torre C 66.67 ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- -----
Bill Mazeroski 2B 46.67 52.94 ----- ----- ----- ----- -----
Tony Oliva RF 33.33 29.41 60.00 ----- ----- ----- -----
Heinie Groh 3B 40.00 35.29 45.00 55.56 ----- ----- -----
Jim Kaat P NE NE NE NE 58.33 ----- -----
Larry Doyle 2B 40.00 23.53 35.00 44.44 45.83 57.14 -----
Billy Pierce P 26.67 41.18 45.00 44.44 33.33 52.38 50.00
Catfish Hunter P NE 35.29 25.00 33.33 41.67 38.10 44.44
Luis Tiant P NE NE NE 33.33 50.00 52.38 33.33
Lefty O'Doul LF 26.67 29.41 20.00 44.44 20.83 38.10 33.33
Wally Schang C ------ ------ 15.00 33.33 33.33 28.57 33.33
Frank Howard LF 33.33 29.41 45.00 22.22 29.17 28.57 33.33
Vern Stephens SS 33.33 35.29 45.00 33.33 41.67 38.10 27.78
Bobby Bonds RF NE NE 30.00 44.44 45.83 28.57 27.78
Jim Wynn CF 26.67 35.29 30.00 33.33 41.67 28.57 27.78
Tony Lazzeri 2B 40.00 35.29 40.00 44.44 29.17 28.57 27.78
Bob Johnson LF 40.00 35.29 25.00 22.22 25.00 33.33 27.78
Phil Rizzuto SS 40.00 35.29 20.00 33.33 20.83 28.57 27.78
Gavy Cravath RF 33.33 29.41 35.00 33.33 20.83 19.05 27.78
Tommy Bridges P 26.67 29.41 25.00 0.00 16.67 19.05 27.78
Vada Pinson CF 26.67 17.65 20.00 44.44 33.33 19.05 22.22
Bucky Walters P 26.67 29.41 20.00 33.33 20.83 19.05 22.22
Sal Bando 3B NE NE 25.00 11.11 25.00 23.81 22.22
Bob Elliott 3B 26.67 23.53 15.00 11.11 16.67 23.81 22.22
First Timers (3)
George Foster
Bobby Grich
Tony Perez
Other Recently-New Eligibles
Al Oliver (2nd)
Rusty Staub (2nd)
Bert Campaneris (4th)
Luis Tiant (5th)
Reggie Smith (5th)
Beyond Last Year of Eligibility (20% needed to continue)
Gavy Cravath
Wally Schang
Lefty O’Doul
Last Year of Eligibility (20% needed to continue)
None
Next to Last Year of Eligibility
None
Actual Hall of Famers on VC 2008 Ballot (4)
Catfish Hunter (1987)
Tony Lazzeri (1991)
Tony Perez (2000)
Phil Rizzuto (1994)
Members of the Hall of Merit on VC 2008 Ballot (3)
Bobby Grich
Billy Pierce
Jim Wynn
Candidates Listed on the 2007 Hall of Fame VC Ballot (7)
Bobby Bonds
Curt Flood
Lefty O’Doul
Al Oliver
Vada Pinson
Luis Tiant
Cecil Travis
Candidates Listed on the 2008 Hall of Fame VC Ballot Elected in BBF Mock Voting (11)
Dick Allen (elected by mock BBWAA)
Ken Boyer
Wes Ferrell
Joe Gordon
Gil Hodges
Jim Kaat
Carl Mays
Minnie Minoso (elected by mock BBWAA)
Tony Oliva
Ron Santo (elected by mock BBWAA)
Joe Torre
For previous discussion of this project, see this thread:
Links to the BBF mock HOF elections (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=57084)
Which has the links to these threads:
Cooperstown, NY – Spring, 1986
BBF Mock Veterans Committee Election: 1987 (none elected)
BBF Mock Veterans Committee Election: 1988 (Larry Doby elected)
BBF Mock Veterans Committee Election: 1989 (Nellie Fox* elected)
BBF Mock Veterans Committee Election: 1990 (Hal Newhouser elected)
BBF Mock Veterans Committee Election: 1991 (Sherry Magee+ elected)
BBF Mock Veterans Committee Election: 1992 (Stan Hack+ elected)
BBF Mock Veterans Committee Election: 1993 (Ken Boyer*+ elected)
BBF Mock Veterans Committee Election: 1994 (Joe Gordon+ elected)
BBF Mock Veterans Committee Election: 1995 (Jim Bunning* elected)
BBF Mock Veterans Committee Election: 1996 (Red Schoendienst elected)
BBF Mock Veterans Committee Election: 1997 (Wes Ferrell+ elected)
BBF Mock Veterans Committee Election: 1998 (Gil Hodges+ elected)
BBF Mock Veterans Committee Election: 1999 (Carl Mays+ elected)
BBF Mock Veterans Committee Election: 2000 (Bill Freehan*+ elected)
BBF Mock Veterans Committee Election: 2001 (Joe Torre*+ elected)
BBF Mock Veterans Committee Election: 2002 (Bill Mazeroski elected)
BBF Mock Veterans Committee Election: 2003 (Tony Oliva+ elected)
BBF Mock Veterans Committee Election: 2004 (Heinie Groh+ elected)
BBF Mock Veterans Committee Election: 2005 (Jim Kaat*+ elected)
BBF Mock Veterans Committee Election: 2006 (Larry Doyle+ elected)
BBF Mock Veterans Committee Election: 2007 (none elected)
* = First year eligible for VC voting
+ = Not in the Cooperstown Hall
This post will provide two things:
1) The Format and Rules
2) A Guide for the 2008 election
Format and Rules
- The HOF VC never published an actual ballot, and the results of their voting were not compiled for public consumption. At the same time, they rarely considered players who retired over 70 years ago, preferring guys they fondly remembered seeing. Thus, our focus will be towards 20th century players they should have been considering. Our ballot will allow them a 52-year window of retirees (1935-1986 for this election); players retiring before this can continue on the ballot so long as they are well supported. This will eliminate players whose careers began in the 19th century. As the actual VC did, we considered those players in separate ballots 1995-2001. The VC was also giving short shrift to Negro league candidates at this time. Again, we considered those players in separate balloting 1995-2006.
- We will have a 28-player ballot for this election, up from 27 in 2007. I will act as the screening committee. You can suggest other candidates, of course, and if I get a second for a candidate I’ll add him to the next ballot. This number will mainly decline as we proceed with elections, but we will always list at least 25 candidates. Close attention will be paid to identifying candidates who are in their last two years of eligibility (1935-36 retirees for the 2008 election).
- Voters may vote for between 1-28 candidates; you’re free to support anyone you think is deserving of the Hall. Because we are electing only one player each time, voters will have complete freedom to support everyone they like. This policy is consistent with the VC rules in force at the time.
- A "None of the Above" option is not available. We operate under the premise that the continued existence of a veterans committee establishes a fait accompli, that it is an acknowledgment that there are worthy players who should be elected. Our mandate is to identify the best ones, so figure out which players deserve the honor and vote for them. (The words above the poll, “but at least five,” are a suggestion and not a requirement, that we might have a better chance of fulfilling our mandate and actually electing a few guys.)
- We will enshrine the leading vote-getter so long as he is supported by a majority of the voters (more than 50% needed); but only one player per year maximum. If two or more players with +50% tie for first place, the one with better support in recent elections will be enshrined.
- Players will ensure their continuing on the ballot as long as they average 15% support over three years (candidates failing this requirement will sometimes be added back to the ballot to reach the 25-player minimum or if they’re deemed deserving of another chance). Players in their final year eligible will be allowed to continue beyond that as long as they average 20% support. We’ll also give new candidates a chance to build some momentum: players drawing less than 15% may also continue on the ballot if their vote percentage equals or exceeds three times their years eligible. Look at that in chart form:
Yr 1 needs 3%
Yr 2 needs 6%
Yr 3 needs 9%
Yr 4 needs 12%
Yr 5 needs 15%
- This thread is also meant to be a discussion thread, so please feel free to stump for and/or against players, including players that will come up for election in the following year.
- When figuring a candidate’s worthiness, everything counts, the sum of their lifetime in baseball. Some players have significant manager credit; others, like Curt Flood and Lefty O’Doul, made contributions that nearly surpassed their playing career.
- The election will normally close ten days after it starts. The next election might not commence for another day or two.
- IMPORTANT: There is some concern about voters defrauding this process by voting with multiple screen names. First, please don't as there is really no point and it takes the fun out of this which is to see how we come out, more than it being a heated competition to get your player elected. Nevertheless, to take precaution against the possibility of a voter abusing the process, votes will be made public, so if we see unfamiliar screen names casting similar ballots, we'll see cause for concern, and if the concern proves to be founded, some form of punitive action could follow. So basically, ONE PERSON = ONE BALLOT. Anything else is really just moronic and defeats the purpose.
- MORE IMPORTANT: Remember, this is not an election of the BBF VC; this is not the place to express your personal feelings as to where the line should be drawn for the Hall of Fame. You’re playing the role of a HOF VC voter. You go into that room with a list of players that you're supporting - nobody goes in there with the aim of objecting to every candidate brought up. By requesting, insisting, agitating for at least five votes, I'm trying to impress this reality on our electorate here: you've gotta support some guys. I am also asking voters to be sensitive to the consensus of who the top candidates are (see chart below) and try to support them. I've even taken the unpleasant step of singling out ballots that are obviously contrary to our aim.
Given the standards established through seven decades of voting, it’s clear that the BBWAA missed some guys that are over the line for the Hall. However, there aren’t any no-brainers on here; we’re dealing with players closer to the Hall’s in-out line. Careful study of the candidates is required to determine the ins from the outs. If you’re not up to this, please, no off-the-top-of-my-head ballots. Don’t just cast a contrarian ballot without good reasoning. If that means fewer ballots, that’s fine. I would rather have an informed vote of 12 ballots then a quick-and-dirty vote of 52 ballots. We need voters who are on board with the mission. Ballots that are judged to be frivolous or an obstruction to our goal of electing someone may be deleted from the poll.
2008 Guide
There are 28 candidates on the 2008 ballot. They mainly played their final game in the period 1935 to 1986. Here's some information regarding them:
Top Vote-getters in the 2001-2007 Elections
15 bal 17 bal 20 bal 9 bal 24 bal 21 bal 18 bal
2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007
Joe Torre C 66.67 ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- -----
Bill Mazeroski 2B 46.67 52.94 ----- ----- ----- ----- -----
Tony Oliva RF 33.33 29.41 60.00 ----- ----- ----- -----
Heinie Groh 3B 40.00 35.29 45.00 55.56 ----- ----- -----
Jim Kaat P NE NE NE NE 58.33 ----- -----
Larry Doyle 2B 40.00 23.53 35.00 44.44 45.83 57.14 -----
Billy Pierce P 26.67 41.18 45.00 44.44 33.33 52.38 50.00
Catfish Hunter P NE 35.29 25.00 33.33 41.67 38.10 44.44
Luis Tiant P NE NE NE 33.33 50.00 52.38 33.33
Lefty O'Doul LF 26.67 29.41 20.00 44.44 20.83 38.10 33.33
Wally Schang C ------ ------ 15.00 33.33 33.33 28.57 33.33
Frank Howard LF 33.33 29.41 45.00 22.22 29.17 28.57 33.33
Vern Stephens SS 33.33 35.29 45.00 33.33 41.67 38.10 27.78
Bobby Bonds RF NE NE 30.00 44.44 45.83 28.57 27.78
Jim Wynn CF 26.67 35.29 30.00 33.33 41.67 28.57 27.78
Tony Lazzeri 2B 40.00 35.29 40.00 44.44 29.17 28.57 27.78
Bob Johnson LF 40.00 35.29 25.00 22.22 25.00 33.33 27.78
Phil Rizzuto SS 40.00 35.29 20.00 33.33 20.83 28.57 27.78
Gavy Cravath RF 33.33 29.41 35.00 33.33 20.83 19.05 27.78
Tommy Bridges P 26.67 29.41 25.00 0.00 16.67 19.05 27.78
Vada Pinson CF 26.67 17.65 20.00 44.44 33.33 19.05 22.22
Bucky Walters P 26.67 29.41 20.00 33.33 20.83 19.05 22.22
Sal Bando 3B NE NE 25.00 11.11 25.00 23.81 22.22
Bob Elliott 3B 26.67 23.53 15.00 11.11 16.67 23.81 22.22
First Timers (3)
George Foster
Bobby Grich
Tony Perez
Other Recently-New Eligibles
Al Oliver (2nd)
Rusty Staub (2nd)
Bert Campaneris (4th)
Luis Tiant (5th)
Reggie Smith (5th)
Beyond Last Year of Eligibility (20% needed to continue)
Gavy Cravath
Wally Schang
Lefty O’Doul
Last Year of Eligibility (20% needed to continue)
None
Next to Last Year of Eligibility
None
Actual Hall of Famers on VC 2008 Ballot (4)
Catfish Hunter (1987)
Tony Lazzeri (1991)
Tony Perez (2000)
Phil Rizzuto (1994)
Members of the Hall of Merit on VC 2008 Ballot (3)
Bobby Grich
Billy Pierce
Jim Wynn
Candidates Listed on the 2007 Hall of Fame VC Ballot (7)
Bobby Bonds
Curt Flood
Lefty O’Doul
Al Oliver
Vada Pinson
Luis Tiant
Cecil Travis
Candidates Listed on the 2008 Hall of Fame VC Ballot Elected in BBF Mock Voting (11)
Dick Allen (elected by mock BBWAA)
Ken Boyer
Wes Ferrell
Joe Gordon
Gil Hodges
Jim Kaat
Carl Mays
Minnie Minoso (elected by mock BBWAA)
Tony Oliva
Ron Santo (elected by mock BBWAA)
Joe Torre
For previous discussion of this project, see this thread:
Links to the BBF mock HOF elections (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=57084)
Which has the links to these threads:
Cooperstown, NY – Spring, 1986
BBF Mock Veterans Committee Election: 1987 (none elected)
BBF Mock Veterans Committee Election: 1988 (Larry Doby elected)
BBF Mock Veterans Committee Election: 1989 (Nellie Fox* elected)
BBF Mock Veterans Committee Election: 1990 (Hal Newhouser elected)
BBF Mock Veterans Committee Election: 1991 (Sherry Magee+ elected)
BBF Mock Veterans Committee Election: 1992 (Stan Hack+ elected)
BBF Mock Veterans Committee Election: 1993 (Ken Boyer*+ elected)
BBF Mock Veterans Committee Election: 1994 (Joe Gordon+ elected)
BBF Mock Veterans Committee Election: 1995 (Jim Bunning* elected)
BBF Mock Veterans Committee Election: 1996 (Red Schoendienst elected)
BBF Mock Veterans Committee Election: 1997 (Wes Ferrell+ elected)
BBF Mock Veterans Committee Election: 1998 (Gil Hodges+ elected)
BBF Mock Veterans Committee Election: 1999 (Carl Mays+ elected)
BBF Mock Veterans Committee Election: 2000 (Bill Freehan*+ elected)
BBF Mock Veterans Committee Election: 2001 (Joe Torre*+ elected)
BBF Mock Veterans Committee Election: 2002 (Bill Mazeroski elected)
BBF Mock Veterans Committee Election: 2003 (Tony Oliva+ elected)
BBF Mock Veterans Committee Election: 2004 (Heinie Groh+ elected)
BBF Mock Veterans Committee Election: 2005 (Jim Kaat*+ elected)
BBF Mock Veterans Committee Election: 2006 (Larry Doyle+ elected)
BBF Mock Veterans Committee Election: 2007 (none elected)
* = First year eligible for VC voting
+ = Not in the Cooperstown Hall