Mock 1950 VC Election

[Brad Harris]

Hall of Fame Inductees - by position
Pitchers - Grover Cleveland Alexander, Mordecai Brown, Bob Caruthers, John Clarkson, Stan Coveleski, Red Faber, Pud Galvin, Clark Griffith, Lefty Grove, Carl Hubbell, Walter Johnson, Tim Keefe, Christy Mathewson, Joe McGinnity, Kid Nichols, Eddie Plank, Charley Radbourn, Eppa Rixey, Amos Rusie, Al Spalding, Dazzy Vance, Rube Waddell, Ed Walsh, Cy Young

Catchers -Charlie Bennett, Roger Bresnahan, Mickey Cochrane, Buck Ewing, Gabby Hartnett, Deacon White

First Basemen - Cap Anson, Dan Brouthers, Frank Chance, Roger Connor, Lou Gehrig, George Sisler, Joe Start, Harry Stovey, Bill Terry

Second Basemen - Ross Barnes, Cupid Childs, Eddie Collins, Larry Doyle, Frankie Frisch, Charlie Gehringer, Rogers Hornsby, Nap Lajoie, Bid McPhee

Third Basemen - Frank Baker, Jimmy Collins, John McGraw, Pie Traynor

Shortstops - Bill Dahlen, George Davis, Jack Glasscock, Hughie Jennings, Dickey Pearce, Joe Sewell, Honus Wagner, Bobby Wallace, John M. Ward, George Wright

Outfielders - Earl Averill, Jesse Burkett, Max Carey, Fred Clarke, Ty Cobb, Sam Crawford, Ed Delahanty, Hugh Duffy, Elmer Flick, George Gore, Goose Goslin, Billy Hamilton, Harry Heilmann, Paul Hines, Willie Keeler, Joe Kelley, King Kelly, Sherry Magee, Jim O'Rourke, Edd Roush, Babe Ruth, Tris Speaker, Sam Thompson, George Van Haltren, Zack Wheat, Harry Wright

Hall of Fame Inductees - by induction
1936 - Grover Cleveland Alexander, Cap Anson, Dan Brouthers, John Clarkson, Ty Cobb, Eddie Collins, Roger Connor, Ed Delahanty, Buck Ewing, Billy Hamilton, Walter Johnson, Nap Lajoie, Christy Mathewson, Tris Speaker, Honus Wagner, Cy Young

1937 - Frank Baker, Mordecai Brown, Sam Crawford, George Davis, Tim Keefe, King Kelly, Kid Nichols, Jim O'Rourke, Eddie Plank, Ed Walsh

1938 - Jesse Burkett, Fred Clarke, Jimmy Collins, Stan Coveleski, Bill Dahlen, Harry Heilmann, Sherry Magee, Charley Radbourn, Amos Rusie, John Ward

1939 - Red Faber, Willie Keeler, Joe McGinnity, George Sisler, Rube Waddell, Zack Wheat, Deacon White, George Wright

1940 - Roger Bresnahan, Max Carey, Pud Galvin, Paul Hines, Joe Kelley, Al Spalding

1941 - Hugh Duffy, Jack Glasscock, George Gore, Hughie Jennings, Bid McPhee, Babe Ruth, Dazzy Vance

1942 - Charlie Bennett, Clark Griffith, John McGraw, Harry Stovey, Bill Terry, Sam Thompson, George Van Haltren

1943 - Bob Caruthers, Mickey Cochrane, Frankie Frisch, Rogers Hornsby, Joe Start

1944 - Goose Goslin, Dickey Pearce, Eppa Rixey, Edd Roush, Pie Traynor, Bobby Wallace

1945 - Lou Gehrig, Joe Sewell

1946 - Elmer Flick

1947 - Ross Barnes, Larry Doyle, Lefty Grove, Harry Wright

1948 - Earl Averill, Frank Chance, Charlie Gehringer, Gabby Hartnett

1949 - Cupid Childs, Carl Hubbell
Italics indicates a Veterans Committee selection

Rules

Only players listed on the ballot are eligible for election.
Players appearing on the ballot last played prior to 1920.
Players named on 75% of the ballots will be inducted.
A voter may vote for 0-10 candidates.
There is no ineligibility rule for “banned” players. Nor is there a minimum 10 seasons played rule for eligibility.
Retain the “no automatic induction” rule.
Eligibility rules are not waived in case of premature death of a candidate.
Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the player's team(s), league(s), and to the sport in general.
Each annual election is open for ballot submission Monday to Friday. Results are announced over each weekend.
While everyone is encouraged to submit a ballot in the thread, the actual results of these elections are determined by the members of the Veterans Committee, who are appointed by me. At present there are 10 members and they are entitled to post or PM their ballots, at their discretion.


1950 Veterans Committee Ballot
Pitchers – Tommy Bond, George Washington Bradley, Ted Breitenstein, Charlie Buffinton, Elton Chamberlain, Jack Chesbro, Larry Corcoran, Jim Creighton, Candy Cummings, Jim Devlin, Charlie Ferguson, Dave Foutz, Fred Goldsmith, Guy Hecker, Bill Hutchison, Addie Joss, Matt Kilroy, Silver King, Terry Larkin, Sam Leever, Bobby Mathews, Jim McCormick, Sadie McMahon, Ed Morris, Tony Mullane, George Mullin, Orval Overall, Deacon Phillippe, Toad Ramsey, Ed Reulbach, Jack Stivetts, Jesse Tannehill, Jack Taylor, Adonis Terry, Mickey Welch, Gus Weyhing, Will White, Jim Whitney, Vic Willis

Catchers – Marty Bergen, Doc Bushong, Jack Clements, Duke Farrell, Johnny Kling, Deacon McGuire, Wilbert Robinson, Pop Snyder

First Basemen – Jake Beckley, Hal Chase, Harry Davis, Wes Fisler, Henry Larkin, Cal McVey, Dave Orr, Fred Tenney

Second Basemen – Jack Burdock, Gene DeMontreville, Fred Dunlap, Kid Gleason, Miller Huggins, Fred Pfeffer, Hardy Richardson, Jimmy Williams

Third Basemen – Lave Cross, Jumbo Davis, Jerry Denny, Art Devlin, Bob Ferguson, Bill Joyce, Arlie Latham, Tommy Leach, Hans Lobert, Denny Lyons, Levi Meyerle, Bill Nash, Ezra Sutton, Ned Williamson

Shortstops – Jack Barry, Herman Long, Ed McKean, Joe Tinker

Outfielders – Ginger Beaumont, Tom Brown, Pete Browning, Oyster Burns, Abner Dalrymple, Mike Donlin, Jim Fogarty, Mike Griffin, Topsy Hartsell, Charlie Hickman, Dummy Hoy, Charley Jones, Fielder Jones, Bill Lange, Tommy McCarthy, Tip O'Neill, Lip Pike, Jimmy Ryan, Cy Seymour, Jimmy Sheckard, Wildfire Schulte, Elmer Smith, George Stone, Mike Tiernan, Curt Welch

1950 Additions: Jack Barry and Hal Chase were added to the ballot. Each retired prior to the 1920 season.

Last Year's Ballots (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=67222)

Last Year's Leading Vote Recipients
70% Jake Beckley, Jimmy Ryan, Vic Willis
60% Ezra Sutton, Mickey Welch
50% Tony Mullane
40% Pete Browning, Jim McCormick, Cal McVey
30% Charley Jones, Addie Joss, Tommy Leach, Hardy Richardson, Jimmy Sheckard
20% Lave Cross, Candy Cummings
10% Ginger Beaumont, Herman Long, Deacon McGuire, Lip Pike

Ballots are due before Saturday, September 15.

Feel free to ask any questions here. Also, if there is an eligible player who does not appear on this ballot who you think merits consideration, please let me know and he may be added to future ballots.

[Brad Harris]

Jake Beckley
Charley Jones
Cal McVey
Lip Pike
Hardy Richardson
Jimmy Ryan
Jimmy Sheckard
Ezra Sutton
Mickey Welch
Vic Willis

[2Chance]

Would someone enlighten me on Vic Willis? He's so near, but I have not been voting for him because I didn't see anything special about him. He should be one of the top 2 or 3 pitchers available to make my ballot, IIRC.

[leecemark]

Tony Mullane

[jalbright]

Would someone enlighten me on Vic Willis? He's so near, but I have not been voting for him because I didn't see anything special about him. He should be one of the top 2 or 3 pitchers available to make my ballot, IIRC.

Try this: http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=425940&postcount=202
Jim Albright

[jalbright]

1. Tony Mullane
2. Hardy Richardson
3. Ezra Sutton
4. Vic Willis

[Captain Cold Nose]

Jake Beckley
Pete Browning
Candy Cummings
Addie Joss
Tony Mullane
Jimmy Ryan
Jimmy Sheckard
Ezra Sutton
Mickey Welch
Vic Willis

[Freakshow]

J. Beckley - 1B
C. Jones - LF
T. Leach - 3B/CF
C. McVey - C/1B
L. Pike - CF
H. Richardson - 2B
J. Ryan - RF
J. Sheckard - LF
E. Sutton - 3B
M. Welch - P

[DoubleX]

Can someone just throw Jimmy Ryan a bone? It's been several years now that he's received just one vote shy of election.

Jack Beckley
Lave Cross
Addie Joss
Tommy Leach
Jim McCormick
Tony Mullane
Jimmy Ryan
Mickey Welch
Vic Willis

[MadHatter]

Jack Chesbro
Candy Cummings
Addie Joss
Tony Mullane
Pete Browning
Mike Donlin
Jimmy Ryan

[Baseball Guru]

Jake Beckley
Pete Browning
Addie Joss
Jim McCormick
Cal McVey
Jimmy Ryan
Mickey Welch
Vic Willis

[MadHatter]

Good to see Mullane finally getting respect, could this be his year?

[KCGHOST]

Bill Joyce
Denny Lyons
Vic Willis
Addie Joss
Pete Browning
Hardy Richardson
Fred Dunlap
Mike Tiernan

[Brad Harris]

Beckley, Ryan, Welch and Willis each need just one more Veterans Committee member to support them. There is still room for each to make it this year so I would suggest making the strongest possible case for these players if you're an advocate of theirs. Otherwise it'll be another year of also-rans. Mullane has improved his fortunes, though not to the point where he's likely to be elected this time out. I'd be very interested in a direct comparison between Mullane and Welch; I think such an analysis would benefit several of the voters besides myself.

[Dogdaze]

Jake Beckley
Pete Browning
Addie Joss
Sam Leever
Tony Mullane
Tip O'Neill
Ed Reulbach
Ezra Sutton
Mickey Welch
Vic Willis

[Cougar]

J. Beckley
P. Browning
L. Cross
Vic Willis
T. Mullane
Addie Joss
J. Ryan
M. Welch
J. McCormick
Miller Huggins (w/ managing credit)

[Cougar]

Can someone just throw Jimmy Ryan a bone? It's been several years now that he's received just one vote shy of election.


Amen, brother.

[leecemark]

==Mullane has improved his fortunes, though not to the point where he's likely to be elected this time out. I'd be very interested in a direct comparison between Mullane and Welch; I think such an analysis would benefit several of the voters besides myself.

--Mullane was a great pitcher for awhile. Welch was an above average pitcher for a long time. Mullane is 55th all time in Black Ink, while Welch is 362nd. Welch does have more Grey Ink, but in that era you were going to get the grey ink just for showing up.
--Mullane is not in the Hall of Fame simply because he didn't win 300 games. He would have won 300 easily if not for being blacklisted for the 1885 season though (he signed multiple contracts after his 1884 team folded). He won 36 and 33 games on either side of the missing season. Mullane was also an outstanding hitter for a pitcher and frequently filled in at other positions. If you're looking for some additonal reason to induct him, Mullane was an exceptionally popular player. His nickname was "The Apollo of the Box" and Ladies Day was first introduced to take advantage of his appeal to female fans.

[dgarza]

Players named on 75% of the ballots will be inducted.

Since there are only 10 voters and the voting restricted to 10 voters, shouldn't this be changed to 80%.
You might as well say 70.5% if you're going to say 75%, since neither of them can actually be reached and a player has to get a significantly higher percentage than the top returnees.

[jalbright]

Can someone just throw Jimmy Ryan a bone? It's been several years now that he's received just one vote shy of election.


I've posted my feelings about Ryan here (http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=902288&postcount=331) , and the mere fact he's hanging on the edge in several elections in this project doesn't change my sense of his worthiness. I'm listening if you want to make your case, though.

[Cougar]

The Vet Committee is supposed to be deliberative.

So...let's set the specifics of Ryan's case aside for a moment. I think we pretty much agree on the facts, anyway...we're divided on the subjective part of where we draw our HOF line.

We're trying to create a better Hall than Cooperstown, right?

I think we're doing well. For one thing, I don't think there's a single player in the Hall right now who would be worse than a James definition 'C' player. That's really healthy.

One other way we should go about creating a better Hall is finding bright lines to draw between HOFers and non-HOFers.

George Van Haltren is in. Even if you think GVH is a mistake (and over 3/4 of us voted for him in "1942"), the worst place to draw that line is between GVH and Ryan, because that's a very, very, very small space. Putting a line there gives no guidance, other than some people get in, and some people don't, and the process is capricious.

"If...then" arguments are treacherous. But they don't have to be. They're treacherous because they can be slippery slopes. This isn't. There's only one other player in history with a career that matches the scope and shape of Jimmy Ryan's career. That's George Van Haltren. There will never be another player that matches the GVH/Ryan description, because the game has evolved far away from where that would be possible.

We need a clear standard. With Ryan out and GVH in, we don't have it. (And I've been making this case for roughly ten (simulated) years, so I'm consistent.

[jalbright]

There's never going to be a "bright line" when you get to the gray area (that's precisely why it's gray), so that argument goes absolutely nowhere with me. Also, I do see small but significant differences between the two men. You've got to draw the line somewhere--and if you're asking me to change my definition, that's an approach which has very poor prospects.

[Cougar]

I'm not trying to get you to "change your definition". You probably didn't mean it this way, but your post reads like you're bristling.

I'm merely trying to offer a different perspective. I'm also not just talking to you, but to the whole "VC", particularly the holdouts; you (Jim A) are one, but so are L-Mark and KCGHost

So...we're quibbling over metaphors now. Areas vs. lines.

OK, we'll use your metaphor: there's a gray area...aren't there then shades of gray? Then the point is the same. Can we agree that GVH's shade and Ryan's shade are close enough that if we had pairs of socks that close in shade they'd be really hard to match correctly? (Maybe your eyes are better than mine, or better than most).

I think I'm seeing & respecting your point of view, even if I don't 100% agree; please try to see mine. A reasonable person (like Jim A.) might conclude GVH is better -- GVH was more consistent year-to-year, had a better sustained peak, didn't play in as favorable parks, was a better pitcher, etc.

Another equally reasonable person might say that Ryan was better...he had quite a bit more power (look at HR and doubles -- that's not all park; triples are nearly equal), a rarer commodity than speed in those days, and GVH never had a season relative to his league like 1888. The small advantage in BA doesn't fully compensate, and they walked at about the same rate. Ryan also appears to have been a slightly better fielder in the OF...and if GVH had shared an OF with Bill Lange, he'd have moved to a corner spot too...there's no shame in the Cubs having an embarrassment of CF riches in the 1890's.

So, I ask the committee, Jim's right, we have to draw the line somewhere. The question is...is the ground between GVH and J-Ryan a good place to make that stand? I think it's a position that's really tough to defend; in geographic terms, the border is ill-defined. If we can't find a river (i.e. bright line), let's at least find a spot where we can have some consensus which side of the property line we're on.

[jalbright]

I'm not trying to get you to "change your definition". You probably didn't mean it this way, but your post reads like you're bristling.

I'm sorry if it comes across that way. However, we do disagree, and nothing that has been said thus far changes my mind.

[Cougar]

Fair enough. No hard feelings.

[Baseball Guru]

So I've heard a little about Mullane and about Ryan but have yet to hear anything about Welch...

What is the knock on him?

I actually sponsor his page on the baseball reference site and feel he is one of the best 19th century pitchers out there...

I have the link in my signature:)

[jalbright]

Let me try to clarify my position on Jimmy Ryan here: the issue I have is that I'm not into sheer politicking, which is what changing my vote based on what one electorate in one project says amounts to IMO. Not that I don't respect the view of that one electorate, but I've specified my reasons I'm not persuaded. I've participated in several of these projects, and this is the only time I've been involved where Ryan hit close to this level of support. What's to say this project is right and the others wrong, especially given my reservations on the subject? Perhaps if I was frequently facing this kind of sentiment, I might bend. But that's not the case. I feel I should either support Ryan every time from this day forward (absent a change of mind due to new info) or I should refuse to support him every time (given the same caveat). The arguments I've heard thus far seem to me to be asking me to change that approach--and I'm not inclined to. If you can argue the merits of Ryan, especially addressing the reservations I have, that's what I'm most interested in.


Note:
I didn't participate in the BBF Timeline Project, but he made it there. Though I'm not part of BB Think Factory, he's not in there. The two I'm sure where Ryan has been eligible and hasn't crossed 50% are the Mock VC elections and the BBFHOF project.

Jim Albright

[jalbright]

Here's some more about Tony Mullane (http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=370012&postcount=139) .

As for Welch, I've written about my thoughts on him here (http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=738081&postcount=323) and here (http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=413488&postcount=190)

[leecemark]

--If I had voted for GVH then I probably would have to also vote for Ryan. I think GVH is a litle better, but its close enough I wouldn't stand in the way of Ryan's selection had I supported GVH. I didn't though and the fact that GVH got elected over my objections doesn't make Ryan look any better to me than he did before.

[Brad Harris]

I'd like to point out that while Ryan is not in the Hall of Merit, neither is GVH. Same is true of Cooperstown. This project appears to be the only one I'm aware of where one was elected, but not the other; a phenomena I find interesting.

While I'm voting for Ryan, I concur completely with what Jim and Mark have said. It's incumbent on Ryan's supporters to make a case based on the merits of Ryan's record. I certainly understand the frustration of having one of your candidates consistently see majority support yet not gain election, but that in itself is insufficient reason to vote for a player. I'm not saying anyone has this attitude, but I think everyone will appreciate not hearing "come on...", imploring voters to change their minds.

Though I'm supporting Ryan, I haven't yet been able to make a case in my own mind that's compelling enough to change someone else's. As Cougar pointed out, it's a very fine line between Van Haltren and Ryan. I'm less comfortable than Jim about drawing the line there, but I respect his (and others') ability to do so.

Not sure how I feel about the idea of comparing Ryan's support in this project to Ryan's support in other projects, but Mark's comments were on target in that he certainly shouldn't be expected to isolate his opinion of a candidate from other projects he's participated in merely because the level of support Ryan receives is higher here.

The electorate will be expanding (for wholly unrelated reasons) in the near future and it will be interesting to see what happens to Ryan and some of these other guys at that point. By pointing out the electoral prospects of the top candidates mid-week, I was hoping merely to encourage more discussion about the merits of those players, not imply any individual was holding things up. It's the advocate upon who the responsibility to persuade rests.

One thing I'll say is a big 'thank you' to the Mullane supporters who've stepped up to the plate as you've spurred me to do further research and Mullane is now in my queue.

[AG2004]

One other way we should go about creating a better Hall is finding bright lines to draw between HOFers and non-HOFers.

George Van Haltren is in. Even if you think GVH is a mistake (and over 3/4 of us voted for him in "1942"), the worst place to draw that line is between GVH and Ryan, because that's a very, very, very small space. Putting a line there gives no guidance, other than some people get in, and some people don't, and the process is capricious.

. . . .

We need a clear standard. With Ryan out and GVH in, we don't have it. (And I've been making this case for roughly ten (simulated) years, so I'm consistent.

To compare early players, I adjust win shares to 140 scheduled games for position players up to 1889, and to 154 scheduled games for position players from 1890-1903. There's schedule length adjustment for pitchers.

After I make these adjustments, GVH and Ryan both come out to 135 adjusted WS in their best five consecutive seasons, and 88 adjusted WS in their best three seasons overall. Their ink scores are similar. However, there are some major differences:

*Ryan had the one MVP-type season in 1888; GVH missed that mark, but came close with two seasons as a position player which come out to 29 win shares after a schedule adjustment.

*GVH had 11 All-Star-type seasons; Ryan had 8.

*Looking at their peak years - if someone like GVH at his peak were your team's best position player, you would be in the pennant race more likely than not. If someone like Ryan at his peak were your team's best, you would be out of the pennant race more likely than not. Consistency can make a difference, and in this case, it makes an important difference.

*GVH had 371 adjusted WS over his career; Ryan had 341. That's a fairly big gap; if you were to make a graph of players with 700+ win shares, 680-699 WS, 660-679 WS, and so on down to 20-39 WS and 0-19 WS, the 340-360 range is where things start to widen out.

If you make these schedule adjustments for everybody, we do have a position player who falls between Ryan and GVH in career length: Jimmy Sheckard, at 349 adjusted WS.

If you use career value and the likelihood that a player could lead a team into the pennant race (even if its just during the player's peak years) to help draw the line, then the line could very well fall between GVH and Ryan.

-----

Since I mentioned Sheckard above, let's see how he compares to the other two outfielders. They are similar in the ink scores, but Sheckard leads in black ink (19 vs. 12 for Ryan and 7 for GVH) and gray ink (124 vs. 118 for GVH and 116 for Ryan). Win Shares Gold Gloves? Ryan and Van Haltren both have 2 OF gold gloves, while Sheckard earned 5. (Sheckard doesn't get a break here for playing LF; James has the corner outfielders and the CFs competing against each other for the three WSGGs in the outfield.)

Sheckard's five-year peak comes out to 132 adjusted win shares, which is a little lower than GVH and Ryan. But Sheckard's best three seasons come out to 102 (36, 36, 30) - and that's a significant edge over the others.

Sheckard has three MVP-candidate-type seasons, while Ryan has just one (and Van Haltren has zero). That works in Sheckard's favor, since most people with 3 such seasons are Hall of Famers, but most players with only one are out. Sheckard ties Van Haltren in the number of All-Star-type seasons, at eleven. A double-digit number of such seasons is also good for Sheckard, as few people with at least ten are not Hall of Famers.

When we compare Sheckard to GVH, Van Haltren has the advantage in career win shares, but Sheckard has the advantage in defensive prowess (he's an A in defensive win shares despite being a corner outfielder; GVH is a B, and Ryan a B+), Win Shares Gold Gloves, and, most importantly, the number of MVP-candidate-type seasons. To me, those three seasons are more than enough to compensate for a difference in career value of 22 win shares (adjusting for career length).

Finally, while neither Sheckard nor GVH is in Cooperstown, Sheckard is in the Hall of Merit. He was inducted in 1930, finishing first in the vote, appearing on 78% of the ballots, with 62% of all possible points, so he's still a member even if we consider it to be "1950."

I don't see how you can move Ryan ahead of Sheckard without placing a great deal of weight on HOF Standards. Ryan has the edge in OPS+, 124 to 120, but Sheckard is that rare corner outfielder whose defensive value is equal to that of the better center fielders. I'll have to check to see how many corner outfielders get a grade of A- or better by defensive win shares, but I don't think it's very much, as they have to compete against CFs for those grades. When I find out, I'll post the results.

[AG2004]

Last night, I said that I would list all corner outfielders who received a grade of A- or better for fielding, according to Bill James' Win Shares book. The grades were posted at the end of the 2000 season, so some players who were still around then might have slipped a little.

Since James doesn't grade by position for outfielders - left fielders and right fielders are in the same class as center fielders because fielding statistics weren't broken down by specific outfield position in the past - most of the top outfielders are center fielders. There were two corner outfielders who earned a grade of A+, and nine who earned an A. With one exception, those outfielders were teamed up with "A" or "A+" center fielders for the bulk of their careers; because only one of the great defensive outfielders could play center, the other one (or, in the case of the Browns of the mid-1880s, the other two great outfielders) was forced into a corner position. (A+) and (A) refer to the grades various outfielders received.

The A+ Corner Outfielders

*Jim Fogarty (RF) - Ed Andrews (A+) was his center field teammate.

*Hugh Nicol (RF) - Started out with George Gore (A+) in CF. He moved to the Browns, where Curt Welch (A+) was in CF. He finished his career with Pop Corkhill, another A+ defensive outfielder, playing center field.

The A Corner Outfielders

*Eddie Burke (LF) - Started out with the Giants, where CF George Van Haltren won a Win Share Gold Glove (WSGG) in 1894. Moved to Chicago, where he was a teammate of A+ outfielder Bill Lange.

*Abner Dalrymple (LF) - Teamed up with George Gore (A+) for most of his career.

*Tip O'Neill (LF) - The only defensive outfielder to earn a grade of A and still be the worst defensive outfielder on his team for a period of several years; two A+ outfielders, Curt Welch and Hugh Nicol, were teammates on the AA's St. Louis Browns.

*Jim Rivera (RF) - Started out as a CF, but was bumped to RF with the arrivals of Jim Busby (A+) and, one season later, Larry Doby (A).

*Howard Shanks (LF) - The exception; CF Clyde Milan earned a grade of B+ for his career. However, Milan won WSGGs in 1912, 1913, 1915, and 1916, and Shanks debuted in 1912, so Milan was playing on an A+ level during Shanks' first five years in baseball.

*Jimmy Sheckard (LF) - Started in Brooklyn with Mike Griffin (A+) in center. Played one season in Baltimore with Steve Brodie (A), then moved back to Brooklyn, where Fielder Jones (A+) was now in center. With the Cubs, he was a teammate of Jimmy Slagle, another outfielder with a grade of A.

*Al Simmons (LF) - Was a center fielder for a few years, but the arrival of Mule Haas (A) pushed him into left. In 1935, he switched positions again with Haas; the White Sox moved Haas to LF and Simmons to CF. In 1937, Simmons was sent to Washington, who already had Sammy West (A+) in center, and thus ended up in left field again.

*Larry Walker (RF) - Arrived in Montreal at the same time as A+ defensive outfielder Marquis Grissom.

*Gerald Williams (LF) - Shared the outfield with two A+ defensive players, Bernie Williams with the Yankees and Andruw Jones in Atlanta.

The A- Corner Outfielders

I'll just list them by name and position.

Jesse Barfield (RF)
Carson Bigbee (LF)
Fred Clarke (LF)
Hoot Evers (LF)
Billy Hatcher (LF)
Joe Hornung (LF)
Joe Kelley (LF)
Tommy McCarthy (RF)
Reggie Smith (RF)
Tom York (RF)


*Jimmy Sheckard and Al Simmons were the best defensive left fielders to have long careers in baseball. Simmons had 69.0 career DWS, or 3.70 per 1000 innings played; Sheckard is right behind with 66.3 career DWS, or 3.65 per 1000 played. Sheckard had to cope with a few 140-game seasons during his peak years, and Simmons had the advantage of being able to play CF for a few years before Haas came along, so it's hard to tell which one was really better.

[Cougar]

THe above list strikes me as very odd.

No Clemente, no Kaline, no Harry Hooper or Dwight Evans, no Barry Bonds (pre-Klingon)?

But Billy Hatcher is on the list?

Forgive me if I think defensive win shares may be mission the boat here.

[AG2004]

THe above list strikes me as very odd.

No Clemente, no Kaline, no Harry Hooper or Dwight Evans, no Barry Bonds (pre-Klingon)?

But Billy Hatcher is on the list?

Forgive me if I think defensive win shares may be mission the boat here.

James had to deal with the fact that, for most of baseball history, the leagues didn't record which outfield position a player was at when he recorded a putout, assist, or error. A typical corner outfielder records about 2.00 win shares per 1000 defensive innings, while a typical center fielder earns about 3.00 win shares per 1000 defensive innings. However, James wasn't able to separate a player's performance in center from that same player's performance in right, so he couldn't make separate grades for left field, center field, and right field.

Clemente, Kaline, and Dwight Evans recorded fielding grades of B- as outfielders. They were very good defensive players for corner outfielders. Clemente earned 2.87 WS per 1000 defensive innings; Evans, 2.82/1000 innings; and Kaline, 2.70/1000 innings. Hooper's rate of 2.61/1000 innings earns him a C+ as an outfielder - but that's still fairly impressive for a corner outfielder.

Billy Hatcher recorded 3.36 WS per 1000 defensive innings, which is A- for an outfielder. Hatcher played 583 games at left, 553 at center, and 87 at right, so I listed him as a left fielder. Hatcher isn't remembered that well because he was benched fairly often and changed teams every other year. That was because he was such a weak hitter; a 85 OPS+ is putrid for an outfielder.

Most of the outfielders who receive grades of A-, A, or A+ for their fielding are center fielders. There are very few corner outfielders with as much value as the top defensive center fielders, which is why so few of them managed to make the lists.

[jalbright]

Also, couldn't a long timer like Kaline have been a B or B+ at his peak but then declined to the lower figure as he aged?

[Brad Harris]

Congratulations to Vic Willis on his election to the Hall of Fame!

OFFICIAL RESULTS
77% Vic Willis
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66% Jake Beckley, Jimmy Ryan, Mickey Welch
55% Tony Mullane, Ezra Sutton
44% Addie Joss, Jimmy Sheckard
33% Pete Browning, Charley Jones, Tommy Leach, Jim McCormick, Cal McVey, Hardy Richardson
22% Lave Cross, Lip Pike
11% Candy Cummings, Miller Huggins, Herman Long

FAN VOTE
100% Pete Browning, Addie Joss
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66% Tony Mullane, Vic Willis
33% Jake Beckley, Jack Chesbro, Candy Cummings, Mike Donlin, Fred Dunlap, Bill Joyce, Sam Leever, Denny Lyons, Tip O'Neill, Ed Reulbach, Hardy Richardson, Jimmy Ryan, Ezra Sutton, Mike Tiernan, Mickey Welch

COMPOSITE VOTE
75% Vic Willis
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58% Jake Beckley, Addie Joss, Tony Mullane, Jimmy Ryan, Mickey Welch
50% Pete Browning, Ezra Sutton
33% Hardy Richardson, Jimmy Sheckard
25% Charley Jones, Tommy Leach, Jim McCormick, Cal McVey
16% Lave Cross, Candy Cummings, Lip Pike
8% Jack Chesbro, Mike Donlin, Fred Dunlap, Miller Huggins, Bill Joyce, Sam Leever, Herman Long, Denny Lyons, Tip O'Neill, Ed Reulbach, Mike Tiernan