BBF Mock HoF Election: 2009

[DoubleX]

Welcome to Baseball Fever's Mock HoF Election for 2009. The goal of this project is to conduct Hall of Fame elections from 1979-2011, as if we were the BBWAA, and then compare our results to the actual BBWAA results (obviously, there will be no comparisons to the BBWAA for elections after 2007). For the most part, we will proceed just like BBWAA does. 1979 was selected as the start year because that is when the BBWAA elections first implemented the 5% rule (though it was not always adhered to).

This post will provide three things:

1) The Format and Rules

2) A Guide for the 2009 Election


Format and Rules
- The BBF ballot will consist of the same players that were on the BBWAA ballot, except for in instances where we have elected, dropped, or sustained on the ballot different players than the BBWAA (which will likely be quite a few).

- Voters may vote for between 0-10 candidates. A "None of the Above" option is available if you believe no one is worthy and you wish to submit a blank ballot.

- Adjusting Ballots: Anyone who votes for more than 10 candidates will have all their votes discounted unless they inform me within 48 hours of submitting their vote (or the close of the election, whichever comes first) of the mistake and which players they wish to discount. In such a situation, if I am not informed of the players to be dropped, I will discount that voter's entire ballot. If a voter habitually submits a ballot with more than 10 players, they risk having their votes discounted in all present and future elections. Otherwise, there will be no adjusting ballots after submitted, even if you forgot to vote for someone you meant to vote for or clicked on the wrong player. So please think carefully about your ballot before voting and make sure you have selected everyone you intend to vote for (up to 10).

- 75% support or greater will elect a player. Players receiving less than 5% will be dropped from all future elections (even if in reality, that player was included in future BBWAA elections). Players receiving 5% or more but less than 75% will stay on the ballot for the next election, unless that player's 15-year eligibility is over.

- The election will close exactly a week after it started. The next election might not commence for another day or two.

- IMPORTANT: There is some concern about voters defrauding this process by voting with multiple screen names. First, please don't as there is really no point and it takes the fun out of this which is to see how we come out, more than it being a heated competition to get your player elected. Nevertheless, to take precaution against the possibility of a voter abusing the process, votes will be made public, so if we see unfamiliar screen names casting similar ballots, we'll see cause for concern, and if the concern proves to be founded, some form of punitive action could follow. So basically, ONE PERSON = ONE BALLOT. Anything else is really just moronic and defeats the purpose.

- Also, in the interest of making this process as genuine as possible, I strongly urge voters to not view the results before they vote, as viewing results before voting could influence a person's votes (perhaps subconsciously).

- This thread is also meant to be a discussion thread, so please feel free to stump for and/or against players, including players that will come up for election in the following year.


2009 Guide
There are 37 candidates on the 2009 BBF ballot. Here's some information regarding the candidates:

First Timers (20)
Steve Avery
Jay Bell
Mike Bordick
John Burkett
David Cone
Ron Gant
Joe Girardi
Mark Grace
Rickey Henderson
Todd Hundley
Charles Nagy
Denny Neagle
Jesse Orosco
Dean Palmer
Dan Plesac
Rick Reed
Greg Vaughn
Mo Vaughn
Matt Williams
Mike Williams

Holdovers (17)
Player Year of Eligibility High BBF Support Previous Year’s BBF Support
Albert Belle 4th 46.51% (2008) 46.51%
Will Clark 4th 30.23% (2008) 30.23%
Andre Dawson 8th 58.33% (2004) 51.16%
Darrell Evans 15th 35.14% (1997) 32.56%
Dwight Evans 13th 24.32% (1997) 18.61%
Keith Hernandez 14th 47.06% (1998) 37.21%
Tommy John 15th 30.23% (1995) 20.93%
Fred Lynn 14th 18.92% (1997) 9.30%
Mark McGwire 3rd 53.49% (2008) 53.49%
Jack Morris 10th 25.00% (2000) 11.63%
Dale Murphy 11th 58.33% (2000/2004) 51.16%
Dave Parker 13th 40.54% (1997) 30.23%
Dan Quisenberry 14th 35.29% (1998) 34.88%
Tim Raines 2nd 67.44% (2008) 67.44%
Jim Rice 15th 50.00% (1998) 25.58%
Lee Smith 7th 21.21% (2003) 20.93%
Lou Whitaker 9th 69.77% (2008) 69.77%

Last Year of Eligibility (1)
Darrell Evans
Tommy John
Jim Rice

Penultimate Year of Eligibility (3)
Keith Hernandez
Fred Lynn
Dan Quisenberry

Players on BBF Ballot that Will Not be on BBWAA Ballot (8)
Albert Belle – Dropped by BBWAA (2007)
Will Clark – Dropped by BBWAA (2006)
Darrell Evans – Dropped by BBWAA (1995)
Dwight Evans – Dropped by BBWAA (1999)
Keith Hernandez – Dropped by BBWAA (2004)
Fred Lynn – Dropped by BBWAA (1997)
Dan Quisenberry – Dropped by BBWAA (1996)
Lou Whitaker – Dropped by BBWAA (2001)

Players that Might Be On BBWAA Ballot but Not On BBF Ballot (5)
Harold Baines – Dropped by BBF (2007)
Bert Blyleven - Elected by BBF (1998)
Goose Gossage – Elected by BBF (2000)
Don Mattingly – Dropped by BBF (2002)
Alan Trammell – Elected by BBF (2008)

Players Elected by BBF between 1979-2008 (54)
Player BBF Election Year BBF Election Percentage Year on Ballot
Hank Aaron 1982 100.00% 1st
Dick Allen 1985 75.00% 3rd
Luis Aparicio 1990 76.47% 12th
Richie Ashburn 1979 75.41% 12th (1st for BBF)
Johnny Bench 1989 95.12% 1st
Bert Blyleven 1998 82.35% 1st
Wade Boggs 2005 83.78% 1st
George Brett 1999 96.97% 1st
Lou Brock 1988 76.19% 4th
Rod Carew 1991 86.05% 1st
Gary Carter 1998 82.35% 1st
Steve Carlton 1994 94.12% 1st
Orlando Cepeda 1984 79.03% 5th
Don Drysdale 1983 79.03% 9th (5th for BBF)
Dennis Eckersley 2005 78.38% 2nd
Rollie Fingers 1991 76.47% 4th
Carlton Fisk 1999 93.94% 1st
Bob Gibson 1981 89.83% 1st
Goose Gossage 2000 80.56% 1st
Tony Gwynn 2007 95.00% 1st
Reggie Jackson 1993 97.62% 1st
Fergie Jenkins 1989 82.93% 1st
Al Kaline 1980 90.32% 1st
Harmon Killebrew 1981 93.22% 1st
Juan Marichal 1981 79.66% 1st
Willie Mays 1979 98.36% 1st
Willie McCovey 1986 100.00% 1st
Minnie Minoso 1990 76.47% 5th
Paul Molitor 2004 83.33% 1st
Joe Morgan 1990 88.24% 1st
Eddie Murray 2003 87.88% 1st
Phil Niekro 1993 80.85% 1st
Jim Palmer 1990 80.39% 1st
Gaylord Perry 1989 80.49% 1st
Kirby Puckett 2006 76.19% 6th
Cal Ripken Jr 2007 90.00% 1st
Brooks Robinson 1983 88.71% 1st
Frank Robinson 1982 100.00% 1st
Nolan Ryan 1999 93.94% 1st
Ryne Sandberg 2003 87.88% 1st
Ron Santo 1980 82.26% 1st
Mike Schmidt 1995 95.35% 1st
Tom Seaver 1992 97.62% 1st
Ted Simmons 2006 77.50% 14th
Ozzie Smith 2002 81.58% 1st
Duke Snider 1979 83.61% 10th (1st for BBF)
Willie Stargell 1988 88.10% 1st
Don Sutton 1996 78.95% 3rd
Alan Trammell 2008 76.74% 7th
Hoyt Wilhelm 1979 77.05% 2nd (1st for BBF)
Billy Williams 1982 80.00% 1st
Dave Winfield 2002 92.59% 2nd
Carl Yastrzemski 1989 92.68% 1st
Robin Yount 1999 93.94% 1st

Players Elected by BBF by Position
Catcher (4): Johnny Bench, Gary Carter, Carlton Fisk, Ted Simmons
First Base (5): Dick Allen, Orlando Cepeda, Harmon Killebrew, Willie McCovey, Eddie Murray
Second Base (3): Rod Carew, Joe Morgan, Ryne Sandberg
Shortstop (5): Luis Aparicio, Cal Ripken Jr, Ozzie Smith, Alan Trammell, Robin Yount
Third Base (5): Wade Boggs, George Brett, Brooks Robinson, Ron Santo, Mike Schmidt
Left Field (5): Lou Brock, Minnie Minoso, Willie Stargell, Billy Williams, Carl Yastrzemski
Center Field (4): Richie Ashburn, Willie Mays, Kirby Puckett, Duke Snider
Right Field (6): Hank Aaron, Tony Gwynn, Reggie Jackson, Al Kaline, Frank Robinson, Dave Winfield
Designated Hitter (1): Paul Molitor

Starting Pitcher (12): Bert Blyleven, Steve Carlton, Don Drysdale, Bob Gibson, Fergie Jenkins, Juan Marichal, Phil Niekro, Jim Palmer, Gaylord Perry, Nolan Ryan, Tom Seaver, Don Sutton
Relief Pitcher (4): Dennis Eckersley, Rollie Fingers, Goose Gossage, Hoyt Wilhelm

Players Elected by BBWAA between 1979-2007 (48)
Player BBWAA Election Year BBWAA Election Percentage Year on Ballot
Hank Aaron 1982 97.83% 1st
Luis Aparicio 1984 84.62% 6th
Johnny Bench 1989 96.42% 1st
Wade Boggs 2005 91.90% 1st
George Brett 1999 98.19% 1st
Lou Brock 1985 79.75% 1st
Rod Carew 1991 90.52% 1st
Steve Carlton 1994 95.61% 1st
Gary Carter 2003 78.00% 6th
Don Drysdale 1984 78.41% 10th
Rollie Fingers 1992 81.16% 2nd
Dennis Eckersley 2004 83.20% 1st
Carlton Fisk 2000 79.56% 1st
Bob Gibson 1981 84.04% 1st
Tony Gwynn 2007 97.60% 1st
Catfish Hunter 1987 76.27% 3rd
Reggie Jackson 1993 93.62% 1st
Fergie Jenkins 1991 75.40% 3rd
Al Kaline 1980 88.31% 1st
Harmon Killebrew 1984 83.13% 4th
Juan Marichal 1983 83.69% 3rd
Willie Mays 1979 94.68% 1st
Willie McCovey 1986 81.41% 1st
Paul Molitor 2004 85.20% 1st
Joe Morgan 1990 81.76% 1st
Eddie Murray 2003 85.30% 1st
Phil Niekro 1997 80.34% 5th
Jim Palmer 1990 92.57% 1st
Tony Perez 2000 77.15% 1st
Gaylord Perry 1991 77.20% 3rd
Kirby Puckett 2001 82.10% 1st
Cal Ripken Jr 2007 98.50% 1st
Brooks Robinson 1983 91.98% 1st
Frank Robinson 1982 89.10% 1st
Nolan Ryan 1999 98.79% 1st
Ryne Sandberg 2005 76.20% 3rd
Mike Schmidt 1995 96.52% 1st
Tom Seaver 1992 98.84% 1st
Ozzie Smith 2002 91.70% 1st
Duke Snider 1980 86.49% 11th
Willie Stargell 1988 82.44% 1st
Bruce Sutter 2006 76.90% 13th
Don Sutton 1998 81.61% 5th
Hoyt Wilhelm 1985 83.80% 8th
Billy Williams 1987 85.71% 6th
Dave Winfield 2001 84.50% 1st
Carl Yastrzemski 1989 94.63% 1st
Robin Yount 1999 77.46% 1st

BBF/BBWAA Election Ratio (1979-2007)
53:48

Players Elected by Year between 1979-2008 (BBF and BBWAA)
Year BBF (54) BBWAA (48)
1979 Richie Ashburn Willie Mays
Duke Snider
Hoyt Wilhelm
Willie Mays
1980 Al Kaline Al Kaline
Ron Santo Duke Snider
1981 Bob Gibson Bob Gibson
Harmon Killebrew
Juan Marichal
1982 Hank Aaron Hank Aaron
Frank Robinson Frank Robinson
Billy Williams
1983 Don Drysdale Juan Marichal
Brooks Robinson Brooks Robinson
1984 Orlando Cepeda Luis Aparicio
Don Drysdale
Harmon Killebrew
1985 Dick Allen Lou Brock
Hoyt Wilhelm
1986 Willie McCovey Willie McCovey
1987 None Caftish Hunter
Billy Williams
1988 Lou Brock Willie Stargell
Willie Stargell
1989 Johnny Bench Johnny Bench
Fergie Jenkins Carl Yastrzemski
Gaylord Perry
Carl Yastrzemski
1990 Luis Aparicio Joe Morgan
Minnie Minoso Jim Palmer
Joe Morgan
Jim Palmer
1991 Rod Carew Rod Carew
Fergie Jenkins
Gaylord Perry
1992 Tom Seaver Rollie Fingers
Tom Seaver
1993 Reggie Jackson Reggie Jackson
Phil Niekro
1994 Steve Carlton Steve Carlton
Rollie Fingers
1995 Mike Schmidt Mike Schmidt
1996 Don Sutton None
1997 None Phil Niekro
1998 Bert Blyeven Don Sutton
Gary Carter
1999 George Brett George Brett
Carlton Fisk Nolan Ryan
Nolan Ryan Robin Yount
Robin Yount
2000 Goose Gossage Carlton Fisk
Tony Perez
2001 None Kirby Puckett
Dave Winfield
2002 Ozzie Smith Ozzie Smith
Dave Winfield
2003 Eddie Murray Eddie Murray
Ryne Sandberg Gary Carter
2004 Paul Molitor Dennis Eckersley
Paul Molitor
2005 Wade Boggs Wade Boggs
Dennis Eckersley Ryne Sandberg
2006 Kirby Puckett Bruce Sutter
2007 Tony Gwynn Ton Gwynn
Cal Ripken Jr Cal Ripken Jr
Ted Simmons
2008 Alan Trammell n/a

Players Elected by BBF but not BBWAA between 1979-2007 (9)
Dick Allen (1985)
Richie Ashburn (1979) - Elected by VC (1995)
Bert Blyleven (1998)
Orlando Cepeda (1984) - Elected by VC (1999)
Goose Gossage (2000)
Minnie Minoso (1990)
Ron Santo (1980)
Ted Simmons (2007)
Alan Trammell (2008)

Players Elected by BBWAA but not BBF between 1979-2007 (3)
Catfish Hunter (1987)
Tony Perez (2000)
Bruce Sutter (2006)

Players Dropped by BBF After 15 Years on Ballot (26)
Player Year Dropped High BBF Support
Sal Bando 2001 19.57% (1987)
Bobby Bonds 2001 28.26% (1987)
Ken Boyer 1989 33.33% (1986)
Jim Bunning 1991 69.57% (1987)
Norm Cash 1994 20.95% (1994)
Curt Flood 1991 16.28% (1991)
Nellie Fox 1985 67.31% (1985)
Bill Freehan 1996 50.00 (1996)
Steve Garvey 1997 27.32% (1997)
Bobby Grich 2006 55.88% (1998)
Gil Hodges 1983 27.42% (1980/1983)
Frank Howard 1993 30.95% (1993)
Catfish Hunter 1999 39.53% (1991)
Jim Kaat 2003 34.88% (1995)
Ted Kluszewski 1981 9.68% (1980)
Bill Mazeroski 1992 50.00% (1992)
Don Newcombe 1980 12.90% (1980)
Tony Oliva 1996 36.96% (1987)
Tony Perez 2006 48.15% (2002)
Red Schoendienst 1983 25.81% (1983)
Enos Slaughter 1979 45.90% (1979)
Reggie Smith 2002 27.91% (1991)
Bruce Sutter 2008 46.51% (2008)
Luis Tiant 2002 40.48% (1988)
Joe Torre 1997 62.16% (1997)
Jimmy Wynn 1997 34.62% (1985)

Players Heldover by BBF but Dropped Before Eligibility Ended (27)
Player (Year Dropped) Years on Ballot High BBF Support
Vida Blue (1993) 2 11.90% (1992)
Jay Buhner (2008) 2 5.00% (2007)
Jose Canseco (2008) 2 5.00% (2007)
Joe Carter (2007) 4 10.81% (2005)
Dave Concepcion (1999) 6 17.65% (1994)
Rick Dempsey (1999) 2 5.88% (1998)
George Foster (2003) 12 14.29% (1992)
Ron Guidry (2000) 7 18.92% (1997)
Orel Hershiser (2007) 2 9.52% (2006)
Willie Horton (1988) 3 6.52% (1987)
Elston Howard (1981) 8 (3 for BBF) 11.29% (1980)
Don Larsen (1980) 7 (2 for BBF) 6.56% (1979)
Sparky Lyle (1989) 2 7.14% (1988)
Roger Maris (1982) 9 (4 for BBF) 16.13% (1979)
Don Mattingly (2002) 2 13.51% (2001)
Thurman Munson (1989) 9 17.39% (1987)
Graig Nettles (2002) 9 27.78% (2000)
Al Oliver (1993) 3 11.63% (1991)
Amos Otis (1991) 2 5.88% (1990)
Lance Parrish (2002) 2 8.11% (2001)
Vada Pinson (1983) 3 13.56% (1981)
Boog Powell (1992) 10 17.74% (1984)
Bret Saberhagen (2008) 2 5.00% (2007)
Rusty Staub (1992) 2 6.98% (1991)
Dave Stieb 2 5.56% (2004)
Gene Tenace (1992) 4 7.32% (1989)
Maury Wills (1990) 12 (11 for BBF) 16.13% (1984)

Number of Ballots Submitted in Past BBF Elections
1979: 61
1980: 62
1981: 59
1982: 55
1983: 62
1984: 62
1985: 52
1986: 51
1987: 46
1988: 42
1989: 41
1990: 51
1991: 43
1992: 42
1993: 42
1994: 34
1995: 42
1996: 38
1997: 37
1998: 34
1999: 33
2000: 36
2001: 37
2002: 27
2003: 33
2004: 36
2005: 37
2006: 42
2007: 40
2008: 44

Links to Past BBF Elections
1979 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=56114&highlight=Mock+Election)
1980 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=56470&highlight=Mock+Election)
1981 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=56809&highlight=Mock+Election)
1982 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=57089&highlight=Mock+Election)
1983 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=57376)
1984 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=57694)
1985 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=58020)
1986 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=58308)
1987 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=58590)
1988 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=58882)
1989 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=59147)
1990 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=59516)
1991 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=59900)
1992 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=60287)
1993 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=60589)
1994 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=60982)
1995 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=61296)
1996 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=61617)
1997 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=62106)
1998 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=62481)
1999 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=63012)
2000 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=63473)
2001 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=64011)
2002 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?p=952844#post952844)
2003 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=64872)
2004 (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=65361)
2005 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=65822)
2006 (http://http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?p=985274#post985274)
2007 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=66756)
2008 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=67132)

[DoubleX]

Some notes on this year's election...

Rickey Henderson headlines the newcomers. After that, guys like David Cone, Jesse Orosco, and Mo Vaughn seem to be the best of the rest.

As for holdovers, both Tim Raines and Lou Whitaker came within 8% of election last year, so things look pretty good for them. Andre Dawson, Mark McGwire, and Dale Murphy all also finished above 50%.

Also, in the next three years, we'll lose 8 players to eligibility, to advocates for these players should state their case sooner than later. This year is the last year for Darrell Evans, Tommy John, and Jim Rice; next year is the last year for Keith Hernandez, Fred Lynn, and Dan Quisenberry; and 2011 will be the last year for Dwight Evans and Dave Parker (though it will most likely also be the last year for the project anyway).

[PVNICK]

Dawson
Dwight Evans
Rickey
Hernandez
Morris
Parker
Raines
Whitaker

[Captain Cold Nose]

Thankfully we have a candidate who the saboteurs and "strategists" won't be able to prevent from making it.

[BoofBonser26]

Thankfully we have a candidate who the saboteurs and "strategists" won't be able to prevent from making it.

Mo Vaughn? :D

[538280]

Rickey might still push himself back another 5-6 years one of these years anyway. I was watching Sunday Night Baseball last week and they showed Rickey as the Mets' coach in the dugout. Joe Morgan said he spoke to him before the game, and Rickey said (totally seriously, according to Morgan), that though he's a coach now, he's still going to try to make a comeback as a player next season, if someone will sign him.

[BoofBonser26]

Rickey might still push himself back another 5-6 years one of these years anyway. I was watching Sunday Night Baseball last week and they showed Rickey as the Mets' coach in the dugout. Joe Morgan said he spoke to him before the game, and Rickey said (totally seriously, according to Morgan), that though he's a coach now, he's still going to try to make a comeback as a player next season, if someone will sign him.
Rickey will say that until the day he dies. :hp :)

[dgarza]

1. Mark McGwire
2. Rickey Henderson
3. Jim Rice
4. Albert Belle
5. Dale Murphy
6. Dave Parker
7. Andre Dawson
8. Lee Smith
9. Jack Morris
10. David Cone

[BlueBlood]

Sixty percent for McGwire? A lot of the voters need to acknowledge whether or not any of these players hurt the integrity of the game. And he did. :cry:

[KCGHOST]

Quiz
Raines
Rickey
Whitaker

[Captain Cold Nose]

Sixty percent for McGwire? A lot of the voters need to acknowledge whether or not any of these players hurt the integrity of the game. And he did. :cry:

When has the game actually had integrity to hurt?

[2Chance]

Albert Belle
Will Clark
Andre Dawson
Darrell Evans
Rickey Henderson
Dale Murphy
Dave Parker
Dan Quisenberry
Tim Raines
Lou Whitaker

[Erik Bedard]

Sixty percent for McGwire? A lot of the voters need to acknowledge whether or not any of these players hurt the integrity of the game. And he did. :cry:

I'm a big believer in innocent until proven guilty, but if McGwire was caught by steroid testing, then I wouldn't vote for him, just like I won't vote for Palmeiro.

[dgarza]

Is Dawson's time in the near future?
He's at 64% right now....

[Brooklyn]

Well, I imagine this will be the 15th and last time I check the box for Jim Rice. His support has been waning to a 27% in the last election, so I don't expect that to turn around in one year.

All the sabermetricians seem to hate him, particularly for not walking enough. I look at a player that was one of the most feared hitters in the league for a decade (1975-1985). Most that were following baseball at that time thought he was a HOFer, and I think it is a shame that all these "advanced stats" have changed people's minds.

He hit 382 homeruns in a time when that meant something. When he retired he was tied for 26th all-time. he is now 52nd. Just because the steroid era produced homeruns at an alarming rate doesn't mean we should discount his accomplishments.

He was an RBI guy. when he retired, he was 36th on the all-time list, with only one player above him not in the Hall (Staub)

He was a career .500 slugger. Again, very impressive in his era. Only 8 people that had 5,000 ABs between 1965 and 1995 slugged .500 during that period: Bonds, Aaron, Stargell, Dick Allen, Schmidt, Frank Robinson, McCovery and Rice. nice list

he was thought of highly at his time, highlighted by 8 all star selections, and MVP, and 5 other top 5's. I don't know the answer to this, but I can't imagine there are many people with 6 MVP top 5's that aren't in the HOF

His black and grey ink are more then the average HOFers, showing he was always on the leaderboards.


My biggest problem against him is that he was essentially done by age 33. If he had been able to keep up his age 33 year for 4-5 more seasons, he could have made a serious run at 3,000 hits and been closer to 450 homeruns. But he declined very quickly and was then out of the game. I do think his peak was enough, and his counting numbers high enough, that he should be in the Hall.

[AstrosFan]

My biggest problem is with Rice is that his hitting numbers aren't that impressive for someone whose credentials for the Hall are supposed to be based on his hitting. For someone who probably loses ground with baserunning, and doesn't gain much of anything on his contemporaries in fielding, his hitting just doesn't have Hall of Famer written on it.

Rice supporters have to avoid context and point to his counting stats, like his RBI total. They also tend to use the word "feared," which is a way of supporting the low OBP, high SLG guys over the high OBP, low SLG players, even though the latter may be the better player. Sluggers always get favored in observational analysis, unless the high OBP guy was a speed demon, because a power hitter simply looks better. It doesn't make him a better player. A .400 OBP/.450 SLG will actually produce more runs than a .350 OBP/.500 SLG player, given equal context, and equal everything else.

Rice's high for OPS+ is 158, and it's not like he put up 10 or 12 of those types of seasons, like Eddie Murray. I see Rice as being behind Ken Singleton, Dwight Evans, and maybe Dave Parker among corner outfielders not in the Hall of that era, and I don't support the Hall cases for any of them. Jim Rice was a very good player. He was not a Hall of Famer.

[AstrosFan]

I just want to add that I understand why some people are voting for Rice. I have read plenty on him. However . . .

I am a stats first, observation second guy.

The stats don't suggest Rice was a Hall of Famer.

If observation suggested Rice was a Hall of Famer, he'd likely be in, or at least closer than he is.

Rice doesn't have the intangibles to put him over the top. He wasn't a cancer, but I've never seen him regarded as a team leader.

[SamtheBravesFan]

Rice is getting more votes than Murphy. I'm mad again. :rant:

[BoofBonser26]

I've always been voting for Rice, but as each election passed and he didn't get anywhere close I began to look at his stats more and more, and, well...I think I may agree with his non-election. A great player...but "just" an all-time great.

[DoubleX]

Rice is getting more votes than Murphy. I'm mad again. :rant:

Murphy would probably get a last year boost as well, but we'll not get that far to find out.

[-Kyle-]

Tim Raines is as of right now in. :pray:

[DoubleX]

Just over a day left. Henderson is a shoe-in and Raines is sitting pretty. Whitaker has taken a big step-backwards. I would have thought that after electing his double-play buddy Trammell, that he would get a boost.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Just over a day left. Henderson is a shoe-in and Raines is sitting pretty. Whitaker has taken a big step-backwards. I would have thought that after electing his double-play buddy Trammell, that he would get a boost.

At this juncture it would take four new voters not voting for Raines and no one voting for him to prevent his election. Do we have that many saboteurs?

DoubleX is right, Sam. The only reason Rice is getting the support of Murphy is because it's his last year. It's nothing to be mad about, no moreso than Parker drawing less support than Murphy, which is wrong in my unbiased view.

[DoubleX]

Just to give everyone a head's up, here is the list of new players I intend to include on the 2010 ballot:

Roberto Alomar
Kevin Appier
Andy Ashby
Rod Beck
Dave Burba
Ellis Burks
Mike Fetters
Andres Galarraga
Pat Hentgen
Sterling Hitchcock
Mike Jackson
Eric Karros
Ray Lankford
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Fred McGriff
Mark McLemore
Shane Reynolds
David Segui
Robin Ventura
Fernando Vina
Turk Wendell
Todd Zeile

Others I'm considering, but probably won't include:

Paul Abbott
Tom Goodwin
Darren Dreifort
Jimmy Haynes
Brent Mayne
Steve Sparks
John Vander Wal
Todd Van Poppel

[KCGHOST]

Rickey = 91.11%

You know each and everyone of us individually thinks we are smarter than the BBWAA. But, as a group, when it gets right down to where the rubber meets the road, we aren't so bright either.

[dgarza]

Rickey = 91.11%

You know each and everyone of us individually thinks we are smarter than the BBWAA. But, as a group, when it gets right down to where the rubber meets the road, we aren't so bright either.

I think he'll get only upper 80% in real life.

[Freakshow]

Rickey = 91.11%

You know each and everyone of us individually thinks we are smarter than the BBWAA. But, as a group, when it gets right down to where the rubber meets the road, we aren't so bright either.
I don't think this has much to do with "smart", per se. Voters who pass on no-brainers like Rickey are most likely voting strategically, figuring he doesn't need their vote to get in. This is an allowable approach, although I disagree with doing it that way.

The second reason for omitting RH might be because a voter sees him as a jerk, having an attitude that's irritating and, at times, detrimental to his team. So, he falls short of the total package that some demand in a first-ballot electee.

A third reason for dunning RH could be that, as a corner OF, he is expected to be a heavy hitter, a #3-#4 type. An RBI guy.

Finally, there is the classic "oops" - skipping him over when filling out the ballot.

Our voters, like the BBWAA guys, are not immune to these things. So getting 100% support is really tough.

[DoubleX]

I don't think this has much to do with "smart", per se. Voters who pass on no-brainers like Rickey are most likely voting strategically, figuring he doesn't need their vote to get in. This is an allowable approach, although I disagree with doing it that way.

The second reason for omitting RH might be because a voter sees him as a jerk, having an attitude that's irritating and, at times, detrimental to his team. So, he falls short of the total package that some demand in a first-ballot electee.

A third reason for dunning RH could be that, as a corner OF, he is expected to be a heavy hitter, a #3-#4 type. An RBI guy.

Finally, there is the classic "oops" - skipping him over when filling out the ballot.

Our voters, like the BBWAA guys, are not immune to these things. So getting 100% support is really tough.

Agreed in all respects. I mean he did get all but just 4 votes here, and it's very easy that those 4 votes fell in any one of the categories you mentioned.