John Donaldson/Cannonball Redding

[Chickazoola]

Should he be in the Hall of Fame? Ditto 'Cannonball' Jackman?

Jackman is a tougher case because he didn't pitch in the Negro Leagues for a long period of time, but he was dominant player in the Northeast for over 30 years, and at the very least his story should be known.

[BlueBlood]

I don't get this John Donaldson....on BR it just leads to some mediocre player that was around for a short while.

As for "Cannonball" Redding...I read the Wiki and there isn't enough evidence there to support him being overwhelmingly dominant with his pitching.

[Chickazoola]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Donaldson

I just read an article in the new SABR magazine about Cannonball Redding and he seemed like a very compelling figure who dominated quality opposition(lost of major league talent) but only regionally, he never really left the Northeast.

[WJackman]

I just read an article in the new SABR magazine about Cannonball Redding and he seemed like a very compelling figure who dominated quality opposition(lost of major league talent) but only regionally, he never really left the Northeast.[/I]

The article in the most recent journal was about Cannonball Jackman, not Cannonball Redding. Jackman starting pitching in Texas in 1918 though no actual game documentation has been retrieved until he arrived in New England in 1924.

Jackman may well have been a better pitcher than either Williams or Paige though that is speculative. Projections have him at 800 wins and 8,000 strikeouts plus 150 homers as a batter. At various times he was compared to Paige, Williams, Redding, Bob Feller, Walter Johnson, G.C. Alexander and even Babe Ruth. John McGraw reportedly called him the greatest natural baseball player he ever saw. Bill Yancey - longtime Negro League player and NY Yankees scout - named Jackman the greatest black pitcher in Peterson's "Only the Ball was White."

Much of what Paige did was a media act and it wasn't original. Jackman did everything Paige did and was doing it 10 years earlier. By this I mean calling in outfielders, working the crowds, announcing strikeouts (hitting homers for Jackman as well) in advance. Paige and Jackman's careers lasted the same time frame (Jackman mid teens-mid 50s, Paige mid 20s-mid 60s) and had the color line been broken ten years earlier I suspect Jackman would easily hold the place in history that Piage does. Afterall history is made by the media, and Jackman, playing in the New York City to Boston area, was a huge star.

Jackman pitching in Braves Field as early as 1938 and Fenway Park in 1944 (thought likely earlier). He pitched for the best teams white semipro teams in New England. In 1929 the guests of honor at a banquet for the Douglas, Massachusetts team included the LT Governor of Massachusetts, Wes Ferrell fresh off his 21-win rookie season, Hank Greenberg, and Cannonball Jackman.

[Chickazoola]

The article in the most recent journal was about Cannonball Jackman, not Cannonball Redding. Jackman starting pitching in Texas in 1918 though no actual game documentation has been retrieved until he arrived in New England in 1924.

Jackman may well have been a better pitcher than either Williams or Paige though that is speculative. Projections have him at 800 wins and 8,000 strikeouts plus 150 homers as a batter. At various times he was compared to Paige, Williams, Redding, Bob Feller, Walter Johnson, G.C. Alexander and even Babe Ruth. John McGraw reportedly called him the greatest natural baseball player he ever saw. Bill Yancey - longtime Negro League player and NY Yankees scout - named Jackman the greatest black pitcher in Peterson's "Only the Ball was White."

Much of what Paige did was a media act and it wasn't original. Jackman did everything Paige did and was doing it 10 years earlier. By this I mean calling in outfielders, working the crowds, announcing strikeouts (hitting homers for Jackman as well) in advance. Paige and Jackman's careers lasted the same time frame (Jackman mid teens-mid 50s, Paige mid 20s-mid 60s) and had the color line been broken ten years earlier I suspect Jackman would easily hold the place in history that Piage does. Afterall history is made by the media, and Jackman, playing in the New York City to Boston area, was a huge star.

Jackman pitching in Braves Field as early as 1938 and Fenway Park in 1944 (thought likely earlier). He pitched for the best teams white semipro teams in New England. In 1929 the guests of honor at a banquet for the Douglas, Massachusetts team included the LT Governor of Massachusetts, Wes Ferrell fresh off his 21-win rookie season, Hank Greenberg, and Cannonball Jackman.

Shoot I can't believe I got that mixed up, I feel stupid.

[Dogdaze]

I don't get this John Donaldson....on BR it just leads to some mediocre player that was around for a short while.

As for "Cannonball" Redding...I read the Wiki and there isn't enough evidence there to support him being overwhelmingly dominant with his pitching.

Here's a little info I've gathered on Donaldson followed by a couple of links;

The Baseball Hall of Fame states: Researchers have documented much of his career. Box scores reveal 235 wins and 84 losses and a winning percentage of .737. He also notched 3,832 strikeouts, an ERA of 1.37 and 86 shutouts. He completed 296 of 322 starts (92%), had 22 one-hitters, six no-hitters and a perfect game. He also had a 30 strikeout game, 26 games with more than 20 strikeouts and a total of 166 double digit strikeout games. Donaldson could also hit, batting .334 in over 1,800 at bats. Along with these numbers, there are 37 more games that describe events but box scores have not been located. During these games Donaldson went 27-10 with 193 strikeouts. This would put his strikeout total over 4,000. The 1952 Pittsburgh Courier poll, voting by former Negro leagues players put him as the first-team left-handed pitcher. After the fall of the color line, Donaldson continued to make history by becoming a full-time scout for the Chicago White Sox.

John Donaldson’s verifiable statistical analysis consists of games Donaldson pitched in that have been documented in hundreds of surviving newspapers from his era.

John Donaldson’s major statistics are:
Wins: 235+
Strikeouts: 3950+

Donaldson is presumed to be the all-time leader among black pitchers in Wins, Strikeouts, Winning Percentage and Shutout games, and also is among the top black pitchers all-time in Earned Run Average.

James Riley's The Biographical Encyclopedia of the Negro Baseball
http://www.coe.ksu.edu/nlbemuseum/history/players/donaldson.html

Baseball library's short bio on Donaldson
http://www.baseballlibrary.com/ballplayers/player.php?name=John_Donaldson_1892

[2Chance]

Chickazoola, don't worry about a mistaken identity case. It is surely not the first. Sometimes these bring about interesting discussions anyway.

Donaldson's career is somewhere in Mythical-ville. Too bad he didn't have a cool nickname like "Satchel" or "Cannonball."

[WJackman]

There is an article on Donaldson in the mosre recent issue of "108." You can find it at www.108mag.com, though I don't believe you can view the entire article.

[WJackman]

It's called "One Diamond at a Time," and is by Peter Gorton who has been researching, and very impressively I might add, Donaldson's career.