Ron Santo vs Chipper Jones

[Yankwood]

A lot of the forum members here love Ron Santo for HOF induction. My question is, assuming Chipper Jones continues on the same path that he has so far, if you had to choose one or the other for the HOF, which one would it be?

[cbenson5]

I think that they are very close as things stand right now. Chipper is clearly a much better hitter and baserunner. Santo was the better fielder. His fielding can not make up for Chipper's offensive advantage, but Santo has played about 350 more games than Chipper. I chose Chipper as of today, but I can easily see someone choosing Santo at this point. Chipper still has a lot left in the tank and should become the clear favorite in the next couple of years.

Charles

[KCGHOST]

Clearly Santo, for now. With Chipper's declining availability it may stay that way, too.

[SamtheBravesFan]

Actually, I think Chipper is on the upswing in availability. The only thing that really stopped him this year was a freak accident. Hell, all of them were freak accidents.

My gut instinct is to go with Ron Santo, because he's just better in his era, but Chipper Jones is alongside Scott Rolen as the best third basemen of this era, not counting Alex Rodriguez.

[Brad Harris]

Clearly Santo, for now. With Chipper's declining availability it may stay that way, too.

We have a winner!

[dl4060]

Chipper pretty clearly. I see more great seasons as I look up and down his record. His OPS+ is 19 points higher, and over the course of a career that is huge. Santo is about 370 games ahead, Chipper would have to really drive off the bridge to have his numbers decline to a comparable level within the next 370 games. I like Santo alot, but I really can't see him up there with Chipper. Jones may rank with Schmidt, Brett, and Mathews when all is said and done. I see Chipper as one of the really underrated guys of this era, and he is still playing great baseball. He's second in the NL in OPS+ and if he can finish strong he deserves to be an MVP candidate.

[Yankwood]

Doesn't Santo get a huge edge defensively though?

[Fuzzy Bear]

I don't really see where it's close.

Chipper's offensive numbers are better than Santo's when both are placed in a 750 run context. Chipper's raw BA, OBP, SLG, and OPS+ are better than league norms by a greater margin than Santo's was. Chipper won an MVP; Santo finished 4th in his best season.

Santo was probably the best 3B in the NL from 1964-69, all things considered, even though he had competition (Mathews, Boyer, Allen). Chipper was the best 3B in the NL from 1996-2000; his move to LF was, IMO, ill-advised.

There's no question that if Jones were a Gold Glove 3Bman, he'd be better than Santo by a country mile. He's not, and Santo was, so the question becomes that of how much Santo's defensive edge narrows the gap between him and Chipper.

The reason there's a gap is threefold:

(A) Superior offense by Chipper (even adjusted for era)
(B) Superior longevity for Chipper (he's having a tremendous season right now)
(C) Chipper is still adding to his totals; he's likely to play at least 3 more years at a high level

Santo was a great third baseman, and should be in the HOF. His exclusion is an injustice, and one that I hope he lives to see rectified. But he wasn't as great a player as Chipper Jones. His career ended prematurely, and while we can evaluate Santo on peak value, that doesn't mean that Chipper shouldn't get a bonus for longevity at a high level. If I gotta pick one, Chipper Jones gets the nod over Ron Santo. I don't really see it as particularly close.

[Baseball Guru]

Doesn't Santo get a huge edge defensively though?

Definitely but not only does Jones have an edge offensively, throw in the fact that he is a switch hitter and that makes him all that more impressive...

I view them both as pretty even at this point with Santo getting extra points in my book due to his defense and he still was a solid offensive player and Chipper gets points because he has an edge offensively but is an average fielder..

IMO, Jones still has some good year ahead of him and his offensive #'s will give him a big advantage over Santo...

In my opinion Santo should be in the HOF and when Chipper's career is over he should be in as well..

[digglahhh]

Pretty clearly Chipper, IMO.

Don't forget to look at Santo's home/road splits.

The question in my mind is if Chipper can stick around long enough to pass Brett, it's possible, IMO. Chipper Jones is clearly under-appreciated, the guy has been a beast for years. We constantly hear worries that he's done, yet he's contending for the batting title and second in the league in OPS.

[Fuzzy Bear]

This thread begs the question of where Chipper ranks in terms of all-time third basemen.

Schmidt, Matthews, and Brett are in the top three slots. I know there's some disagreement as to how they rank, but I doubt there's any question that those guys fill the top three 3B slots.

The next four slots include (IMO) Boggs, Robinson, Baker, and Santo. Again the order is debatable.

After this, you get the hodgepodge. Traynor, Ken Boyer, Evans, Hack, Groh, Nettles, Molitor (if you consider him a third baseman), and possibly Matt Williams and Madlock fit in here. One could also consider Rolen (who may be near the end) and A-Rod (who may go all the way to the top if we consider him a third baseman).

Where does Chipper rank in all of this? I think he's clearly above the hodgepodge, for starters. Truthfully, I rank Chipper Jones, at this juncture, as the 4th greatest third baseman of all time (5th if you classify A-Rod as a career third baseman).

I think Chipper is clearly better than Baker and Santo. He's a comparable player to Boggs, but he's got more power. And I believe that Brooks Robinson had a better glove, but a poorer bat than Chipper; Chipper's batting stats are MUCH better than Robinson's when both are adjusted to a 750 run context. Robinson's defensive advantage is significant, but Chipper's offensive advantage is even more significant, IMO.

I don't think this is hyperbole. I think Chipper Jones is an incredibly unappreciated player. There are several factors that cause him to be underrated. One of them is the fact that one of the candidates for the GREATEST third baseman of all time is a fellow Brave, Eddie Mathews. Another is that he was shifted to LF for a couple of seasons. A third is that he is perceived to have peaked early and faded early, but this perception is a bit inaccurate. Chipper's had some injuries, but he's kept on ticking at a high level.

Is this unreasonable? I really don't think so.

[Yankwood]

Part of the problem is that Chipper's numbers get lost in the shuffle of the offensive explosion that ocurred over the last couple decades. Although they are very, very good when compared with others who played his position, they are nowhere near the gaudy totals of the tainted bunch who grabbed all the headlines over the same period. The typical line of .310-35-110, although excellent pales in comparison to .300-70-145.
Another strange thing about his career is that if you look, there is someone on his team almost every season, whether it was McGriff and Galarraga early in his career, or Andruw Jones in the second half of his career who posted very similar numbers. These players did not have the consistency Chipper has had, but they seemed to have "stolen his thunder" throughout most of these seasons by having years good enough that he never seemed to be the player who "carried his team" so to speak. I think this may have contributed to his being taken for granted, so to speak.

[leecemark]

--Where Chipper ranks amoung thirdbasemen is going to depend alot on how much you judge 3B to be a defensive position. As a hitter Jones is at worst 5the amoung all time thirdsackers (Schmidt, Mathews, Brett, Boggs). He is not so great with the glove though. Robinson was probably the best defensive thirdbaseman ever. Jimmy Collins also has his supporters for that claim. Ron Santo and Ken Boyer were outstanding. Baker was very good at a time when thirdbase defense was more important. If you value defense enough then those 5 guys probably rank above Jones, which would make him 10th - still an obvious Hall of Famer (except that 2 guys above are not in the Hall:disbelief: ).

[abolishthedh]

Isn't it odd that we are neglecting the effect of his era for Santo and yet mentioning the effect of his era for Jones?

If voters had factored in the fact that Santo played in a pitcher's era, he'd surely be in long ago. And yet voters might consider the effect of today's hitter's era over Chipper?

Jones will make it into the HoF, unless his performance goes over a cliff and especially if it becomes likely that he used steroids. Why Santo is not in the Hall is one of the great HoF mysteries.

[digglahhh]

Isn't it odd that we are neglecting the effect of his era for Santo and yet mentioning the effect of his era for Jones?

If voters had factored in the fact that Santo played in a pitcher's era, he'd surely be in long ago. And yet voters might consider the effect of today's hitter's era over Chipper?

Jones will make it into the HoF, unless his performance goes over a cliff and especially if it becomes likely that he used steroids. Why Santo is not in the Hall is one of the great HoF mysteries.

Chipper's league adjusted numbers still trump Santo's. And, if we are talking context, remember that Santo has drastic home/road splits, and Chipper does not.

[leecemark]

--Santo's exclusion is quite a mystery though. Most guys who can reasonably be called top 10 at their position are in the Hall of Fame. Santo has a very good argument to rank as high as 5th all time at 3B (even as high as 2nd when he was first eligible, although at the time most people would have said Brooks Robinson and probably Pie Traynor were better - silly them) and he never really came close to election.

[CubsFanJohn]

As much as I love Santo but I would have to give the honor to Chipper Jones.

[SamtheBravesFan]

Whelp, color me convinced that Chipper is better overall than Santo.