Mock 1948 BBWAA Election

[Brad Harris]

Hall of Fame Inductees - by position
Pitchers - Grover Cleveland Alexander, Mordecai Brown, Bob Caruthers, John Clarkson, Stan Coveleski, Red Faber, Pud Galvin, Clark Griffith, Lefty Grove, Walter Johnson, Tim Keefe, Christy Mathewson, Joe McGinnity, Kid Nichols, Eddie Plank, Charley Radbourn, Eppa Rixey, Amos Rusie, Al Spalding, Dazzy Vance, Rube Waddell, Ed Walsh, Cy Young

Catchers -Charlie Bennett, Roger Bresnahan, Mickey Cochrane, Buck Ewing, Deacon White

First Basemen - Cap Anson, Dan Brouthers, Roger Connor, Lou Gehrig, George Sisler, Joe Start, Harry Stovey, Bill Terry

Second Basemen - Ross Barnes, Eddie Collins, Larry Doyle, Frankie Frisch, Rogers Hornsby, Nap Lajoie, Bid McPhee

Third Basemen - Frank Baker, Jimmy Collins, John McGraw, Pie Traynor

Shortstops - Bill Dahlen, George Davis, Jack Glasscock, Hughie Jennings, Dickey Pearce, Joe Sewell, Honus Wagner, Bobby Wallace, John M. Ward, George Wright

Outfielders - Jesse Burkett, Max Carey, Fred Clarke, Ty Cobb, Sam Crawford, Ed Delahanty, Hugh Duffy, Elmer Flick, George Gore, Goose Goslin, Billy Hamilton, Harry Heilmann, Paul Hines, Willie Keeler, Joe Kelley, King Kelly, Sherry Magee, Jim O'Rourke, Edd Roush, Babe Ruth, Tris Speaker, Sam Thompson, George Van Haltren, Zack Wheat, Harry Wright

Hall of Fame Inductees - by induction
1936 - Grover Cleveland Alexander, Cap Anson, Dan Brouthers, John Clarkson, Ty Cobb, Eddie Collins, Roger Connor, Ed Delahanty, Buck Ewing, Billy Hamilton, Walter Johnson, Nap Lajoie, Christy Mathewson, Tris Speaker, Honus Wagner, Cy Young

1937 - Frank Baker, Mordecai Brown, Sam Crawford, George Davis, Tim Keefe, King Kelly, Kid Nichols, Jim O'Rourke, Eddie Plank, Ed Walsh

1938 - Jesse Burkett, Fred Clarke, Jimmy Collins, Stan Coveleski, Bill Dahlen, Harry Heilmann, Sherry Magee, Charley Radbourn, Amos Rusie, John Ward

1939 - Red Faber, Willie Keeler, Joe McGinnity, George Sisler, Rube Waddell, Zack Wheat, Deacon White, George Wright

1940 - Roger Bresnahan, Max Carey, Pud Galvin, Paul Hines, Joe Kelley, Al Spalding

1941 - Hugh Duffy, Jack Glasscock, George Gore, Hughie Jennings, Bid McPhee, Babe Ruth, Dazzy Vance

1942 - Charlie Bennett, Clark Griffith, John McGraw, Harry Stovey, Bill Terry, Sam Thompson, George Van Haltren

1943 - Bob Caruthers, Mickey Cochrane, Frankie Frisch, Rogers Hornsby, Joe Start

1944 - Goose Goslin, Dickey Pearce, Eppa Rixey, Edd Roush, Pie Traynor, Bobby Wallace

1945 - Lou Gehrig, Joe Sewell

1946 - Elmer Flick

1947 - Ross Barnes, Larry Doyle, Lefty Grove, Harry Wright
Italics indicates a Veterans Committee selection

Rules

Only players listed on the ballot are eligible for election.
Players appearing on the ballot last played anywhere from 1918-1942.
Players named on 75% of the ballots will be inducted.
A voter may vote for 0-10 candidates.
There is no ineligibility rule for “banned” players. Nor is there a minimum 10 seasons played rule for eligibility.
Candidates remain on the ballot for 25 years before being permanently dropped.
The 5-year wait is in effect.
Retain the “no automatic induction” rule.
Eligibility rules are not waived in case of premature death of a candidate.
Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.
Each annual election is open for ballot submission Monday to Friday. Results are announced over each weekend.
Anyone may vote by posting their ballot in the thread.


1948 BBWAA Ballot
Pitchers – Babe Adams, Jim Bagby, Chief Bender, Joe Bush, Eddie Cicotte, Jack Coombs, Wilbur Cooper, Wes Ferrell, Larry French, Burleigh Grimes, Jesse Haines, Waite Hoyt, Sam Jones, Dutch Leonard, Dolf Luque, Firpo Marberry, Rube Marquard, Carl Mays, Jack Quinn, Herb Pennock, Eddie Rommel, Charlie Root, Bob Shawkey, Urban Shocker, Hippo Vaughn, Smokey Joe Wood

Catchers – Bob O'Farrell, Gabby Hartnett, Steve O’Neill, Muddy Ruel, Ray Schalk, Wally Schang, Hank Severeid

First Basemen – Lu Blue, Jim Bottomley, George H. Burns, Hal Chase, Ripper Collins, Jake Daubert, Jack Fournier, Charlie Grimm, Joe Judge, Willie Kamm, George Kelly, Ed Konetchy, Stuffy McInnis, Fred Merkle, Wally Pipp

Second Basemen – Max Bishop, Johnny Evers, Charlie Gehringer, George Grantham, Bucky Harris, Tony Lazzeri, Buddy Myer, Del Pratt

Third Basemen – Jimmy Dykes, Larry Gardner, Heinie Groh, Tommy Leach, Fred Lindstrom, Red Rolfe, Buck Weaver, Billy Werber

Shortstops – Dave Bancroft, Jack Barry, Donie Bush, Art Fletcher, Travis Jackson, Rabbit Maranville, Roger Peckinpaugh, Billy Rogell, Everett Scott, Glenn Wright

Outfielders – Earl Averill, Wally Berger, George J. Burns, Earle Combs, Gavvy Cravath, Kiki Cuyler, Chick Hafey, Harry Hooper, Joe Jackson, Baby Doll Jacobson, Heinie Manush, Bob Meusel, Irish Meusel, Clyde Milan, Lefty O'Doul, Carl Reynolds, Sam Rice, Wildfire Schulte, Riggs Stephenson, Roy Thomas, Bobby Veach, Cy Williams, Ken Williams, Hack Wilson, Ross Youngs

1948 Additions: Larry French, Charlie Gehringer, Red Rolfe and Billy Werber were added to the ballot. Each retired following the 1942 season.

1948 Drop-Offs: Harry Davis, Hans Lobert and Ed Reulbach were removed from the ballot. Each retired prior to the 1918 season.

Last Year's Leading Vote Recipients
70% Sam Rice
64% Heinie Groh, Gabby Hartnett
58% Earl Averill
52% Burleigh Grimes
47% Joe Jackson
41% Carl Mays
35% Wes Ferrell
29% Wally Berger, Kiki Cuyler
23% Wally Schang
17% Chief Bender, Gavvy Cravath, Rabbit Maranville
11% Earle Combs, Tommy Leach, Ray Schalk, Hack Wilson, Joe Wood
5% Jim Bottomley, Eddie Cicotte, Wilbur Cooper, Johnny Evers, Larry Gardner, Harry Hooper, Sam Jones, George Kelly, Dutch Leonard, Fred Lindstrom, Heinie Manush, Firpo Marberry, Buddy Myer, Lefty O'Doul, Urban Shocker, Bobby Veach

Ballots are due before Saturday, September 1.

Feel free to ask any questions here. Also, if there is an eligible player who does not appear on this ballot who you think merits consideration, please let me know and he may be added to future ballots.

[Freakshow]

E. Averill - CF
W. Ferrell - P
C. Gehringer - 2B
B. Grimes - P
H. Groh - 3B
G. Hartnett - C
J. Jackson - LF
T. Leach - 3B/CF
Maranville - SS
W. Schang - C

[DoubleX]

Earl Averill
Wally Berger
Charlie Gehringer
Heinie Groh
Gabby Hartnett
Sam Rice
Wally Schang

How did Gabby Hartnett not get elected?

[KCGHOST]

Heinie Groh
Urban Shocker
Earl Averill
Gabby Hartnett
Charley Gehringer

[leecemark]

Earl Averill
Wally Berger
Wes Ferrell
Gavvy Craveth
Charley Gehringer
Burleigh Grimes
Henie Groh
Rabbit Maranville
Gabby Hartnett

[MadHatter]

Dutch Leonard
Carl Mays
Smokey Joe Wood
Charlie Gehringer
Travis Jackson
Rabbit Maranville
Earl Averill
Harry Hooper
Joe Jackson
Sam Rice

[DoubleX]

Can someone go over Wes Ferrrell's case with me? I know he has generally pretty good support around here, but I don't quite see it. To me he had a nice peak, though not great, and I don't think it's good enough to compensate for his relatively short career and unimpressive counting numbers. A 117 ERA+ in 2600 IP, even in a hitter's era, just isn't Hall of Fame-impressive to me. He was only once a factor in an ERA title, finishing 2nd in 1930 (though he finished in the top 7-9 seven times). With ERA+, he once finished 2nd in the league, and seven times in the top 7. What this says to me, is that for about an 7-8 year period, he was consistently very good, but never really dominant, and he doesn't have much else in his career going for him outside of that 7-8 year period. Say if he had that period, plus 5 more above average, or even average years, I could see it, but there really isn't antying outside of the 7-8 year period, and it wasn't quite dominant enough IMO to compensate for the lack of longevity.

So is the argument for him that he was a very good hitter as a pitcher? That's a nice tidbit, but I don't see how his production over 1175 ABs makes the difference here.

I don't mean this to argue against Ferrell, I'm just giving my viewpoint and I legitimately want to know why I should be voting for him because a part of me feels like I should be and that I'm missing something.

[dgarza]

Earl Averill
Jim Bottomley
Kiki Cuyler
Charlie Gehringer
Gabby Hartnett
Joe Jackson
Heinie Manush
Sam Rice
Bobby Veach
Hack Wilson

[J W]

We dropped the ball on Gabby Hartnett, folks:

Earl Averill
Chief Bender
Wally Berger
Charlie Gehringer
Heinie Groh
Gabby Hartnett
Joe Jackson
Carl Mays
Sam Rice
Wally Schang

[jalbright]

Can someone go over Wes Ferrrell's case with me? I know he has generally pretty good support around here, but I don't quite see it. To me he had a nice peak, though not great, and I don't think it's good enough to compensate for his relatively short career and unimpressive counting numbers. A 117 ERA+ in 2600 IP, even in a hitter's era, just isn't Hall of Fame-impressive to me. He was only once a factor in an ERA title, finishing 2nd in 1930 (though he finished in the top 7-9 seven times). With ERA+, he once finished 2nd in the league, and seven times in the top 7. What this says to me, is that for about an 7-8 year period, he was consistently very good, but never really dominant, and he doesn't have much else in his career going for him outside of that 7-8 year period. Say if he had that period, plus 5 more above average, or even average years, I could see it, but there really isn't antying outside of the 7-8 year period, and it wasn't quite dominant enough IMO to compensate for the lack of longevity.

So is the argument for him that he was a very good hitter as a pitcher? That's a nice tidbit, but I don't see how his production over 1175 ABs makes the difference here.

I don't mean this to argue against Ferrell, I'm just giving my viewpoint and I legitimately want to know why I should be voting for him because a part of me feels like I should be and that I'm missing something.

This post does as much to answer your question as I can: http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=545952&postcount=282

[jalbright]

1. Wes Ferrell
2. Charlie Gehringer
3. Burleigh Grimes
4. Heinie Groh
5. Gabby Hartnett
6. Carl Mays
7. Sam Rice

[DoubleX]

This post does as much to answer your question as I can: http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=545952&postcount=282

Eh, sorry but it didn't really do much to convince me other than to validate how I already feel. He had a good peak and was a workhorse for a few years, though his peak was not that spectacular and not really dominant and not enough to make up for his lack of longevity, IMO. His hitting is a nice plus and could put him over the edge if close, but I don't think he's close enough to the edge to make a difference and rather see his hitting as a neat sidenote that makes Ferrell a little more memorable than he would be otherwise

I might consider voting for him if/when he gets to the VC, as I tend to relax my standards a little and vote for a player that I'm closeish on just so I'm not voting against him by not voting.

[Erik Bedard]

Gavvy Cravath
Wes Ferrell
Charlie Gehringer
Heinie Groh
Burleigh Grimes
Gabby Hartnett
Joe Jackson
Rabbit Maranville
Carl Mays
Ray Schalk

It's partly my fault we didn't elect Hartnett. I figured he'd coast in, so I gave his spot to Doyle, who I initially left off, but put back on when I decided that he needed the vote more.

[Dogdaze]

Earl Averill
Chief Bender
Jim Bottomley
Earle Combs
Charlie Gehringer
Gabby Hartnett
Joe Jackson
Sam Rice
Ray Schalk
Hack Wilson

[Baseball Guru]

Earl Averill
Chief Bender
Kiki Cuyler
Charlie Gehringer
Gabby Hartnett
Joe Jackson
Sam Rice
Smokey Joe Wood

[Cougar]

Sam Rice
Wally Schang
Carl Mays
Burleigh Grimes
Charlie Gehringer
Gavvy Cravath
Lefty O'Doul
Gabby Hartnett
Earl Averill
Buddy Myer

[soberdennis]

Joe Jackson
Charlie Gehringer
Carl Mays
Gabby Hartnett
Herb Pennock

[Brad Harris]

Earl Averill
Wally Berger
Gavvy Cravath
Wes Ferrell
Charlie Gehringer
Burleigh Grimes
Heinie Groh
Gabby Hartnett
Carl Mays
Sam Rice

[Windy City Fan]

Earl Averill
Chief Bender
Gavvy Cravath
Wes Ferrell
Charlie Gehringer
Hienie Groh
Gabby Harnett
Rabbit Maranville
Herb Pencock
Lefty O'Doul

[WJackman]

Can someone go over Wes Ferrrell's case with me? So is the argument for him that he was a very good hitter as a pitcher? That's a nice tidbit, but I don't see how his production over 1175 ABs makes the difference here....

I don't mean this to argue against Ferrell, I'm just giving my viewpoint and I legitimately want to know why I should be voting for him because a part of me feels like I should be and that I'm missing something.

Connie Mack on Ferrell in 1929: "I wish I had him. He's the finest looking young pitcher I've seen in years. A terrific amount of stuff, good control, plenty of nerve and, I'd be willing to bet, a pretty good noodle. He acts and pitches like a fellow who's thinking about the job."

The Sporting News on Ferrell in 1930. "Down the years through the game's history great pitchers have bobbed up overnight, flashing a natural ability that made years of experience unnecessary. In these days of free hitting and mediocre pitching, such men are getting fewer and fewer and may be considered rare specimens indeed. However, Wesley Ferrell is one of those exceptions."

Connie Mack on Ferrell in 1930: "I have repeatedly said Ferrell is a great pitcher, one of greatest youngsters I have ever seen."

John McGraw when asked to name his 1930 Major League All-Star team: "I quite agree with Ruth and his committee. Grove and Ferrell have been standouts all season. Their records alone would decide that choice."

Noted baseball writer Joe Williams on Ferrell in 1931: "Everyone tabbed him right off as the best young pitching prospect since Christy Mathewson's time. They call him the second Matty."

Baseball writer John Kieran of the NY Times on Ferrell in 1931: "The late Miller Huggins only had to watch Ferrell twice before declaring him the best young hurler he has seen since Matty."

Grantland Rice on Ferrell in 1931: "Built along the lines of Matty and Walter Johnson, Ferrell in certain particulars is a reminder of both in their early years. Like Matty in his younger days, Ferrell has speed, a fine curve and first-class control."

Baseball Magazine on Ferrell in 1931: "The mantle of the lamented Christy Mathewson has fallen upon the shoulders of this stalwart North Carolina hurler. Where others acquire pitching finesse by years of toil and painful experience, Ferrell is a pitcher by divine right. He has everything, great speed, a sweeping curve, a tantilizing change of pace, air-tight control and the capstone of the pitching ace - cool self-confidence."


Dodger manager Max Carey after Ferrell beat Dazzy Vance and the Dodgers in a 1932 spring game. : "Ferrell is another Christy Mathewson. That means he is one of the greatest pitchers I have ever seen, and if his arm does not go back on him he ought to develop into the best right-hander the American League has ever produced."

Dodger coach Casey Stengel after the same game: "Geez, that guy gets in my hair. He makes pitching look so darn easy."

Joe McCarthy on Ferrell in 1932: "Why this Ferrell is another Matty. I realized last year that he was a great pitcher, but not until Saturday, when he shut us out after the second inning, did I appreciate the mental side of his skill. That young man knows how to pitch."

Walter Johnson in 1934: "Ferrell was a great pitcher, and still is for that matter."

Joe Williams quoting Walter Johnson in 1934: "Ferrell is still a great pitcher. He'd make the Yankees a sure pennant winner, and he'd help any team that can pay him what he thinks he is worth."

Lefty Grove in 1944: "Wes Ferrell was one of the greatest pitchers I have ever seen, and one of the greatest competitors."

Noted writer Frank Graham after Ferrell beat the Yanks with a two-hitter on opening day. "Ferrell still pitches at Matty did - with no exaggerated motion, no fuss and no effort, but with plenty on the ball. It...was interesting for anyone who has an appreciation of the fine art of pitching. His smoothness, his control and the ease...compelled your admiration."

Mickey Cochrane on Ferrell in 1937 after he had burnt out by numbskull manager Joe Cronin. "From a press-box seat Ferrell had a 'nothing' ball. At the plate hitting it, it was just about that. What he had was suberb control, an endless file cabinet in his mind of the likes and dislike of every batter he ever faced, and not to be underestimated, confidence that he could still win."

[WJackman]

Hank Greenberg on Ferrell: "He should be in the Hall of Fame. Why is name has been overlooked I'll never understand, but his record stands up to anybody's."

[2Chance]

Earl Averill
Kiki Cuyler
Johnny Evers
Wes Ferrell
Charlie Gehringer
Burleigh Grimes
Heinie Groh
Gabby Hartnett
Sam Rice
Wally Schang

[Captain Cold Nose]

Earl Averill
KiKi Cuyler
Wes Ferrell
Charlie Gehringer
Burleigh Grimes
Heinie Groh
Gabby Hartnett
Carl Mays
Sam Rice

[BlueBlood]

Chief Bender
Jim Bottomley
Earle Combs
Kiki Cuyler
Charlie Gehringer
Gabby Hartnett
Joe Jackson
Lefty O'Doul
Sam Rice
Hack Wilson

[Brad Harris]

Congratulations to Earl Averill, Charlie Gehringer and Gabby Hartnett on their election to the Hall of Fame!

FULL RESULTS
100% Charlie Gehringer
94% Gabby Hartnett
78% Earl Averill
-------------------------
63% Sam Rice
57% Heinie Groh
47% Wes Ferrell, Burleigh Grimes, Joe Jackson, Carl Mays
26% Chief Bender, Wally Berger, Gavvy Cravath, Kiki Cuyler, Rabbit Maranville, Wally Schang
15% Jim Bottomley, Lefty O'Doul, Hack Wilson
10% Earle Combs, Tommy Leach, Herb Pennock, Ray Schalk, Joe Wood
5% Wilbur Cooper, Johnny Evers, Harry Hooper, Travis Jackson, Dutch Leonard, Heinie Manush, Buddy Myer, Urban Shocker, Bobby Veach

[AG2004]

Can someone go over Wes Ferrrell's case with me? I know he has generally pretty good support around here, but I don't quite see it. To me he had a nice peak, though not great, and I don't think it's good enough to compensate for his relatively short career and unimpressive counting numbers. A 117 ERA+ in 2600 IP, even in a hitter's era, just isn't Hall of Fame-impressive to me. He was only once a factor in an ERA title, finishing 2nd in 1930 (though he finished in the top 7-9 seven times). With ERA+, he once finished 2nd in the league, and seven times in the top 7. What this says to me, is that for about an 7-8 year period, he was consistently very good, but never really dominant, and he doesn't have much else in his career going for him outside of that 7-8 year period. Say if he had that period, plus 5 more above average, or even average years, I could see it, but there really isn't antying outside of the 7-8 year period, and it wasn't quite dominant enough IMO to compensate for the lack of longevity.

So is the argument for him that he was a very good hitter as a pitcher? That's a nice tidbit, but I don't see how his production over 1175 ABs makes the difference here.

I don't mean this to argue against Ferrell, I'm just giving my viewpoint and I legitimately want to know why I should be voting for him because a part of me feels like I should be and that I'm missing something.

Since you're using ERA+ to help make your choices, I'm going to show how his production at the plate makes the difference here.

According to baseball-reference, Ferrell had an OPS+ of 100. That's the average OPS+ for a position player, and much, much better than the production of an average pitcher. Also, Ferrell has 189 runs created over the course of his career as a batter.

Let's assume that 1/6 of those runs came when Ferrell was a pinch hitter or outfielder. That leaves 158 runs created at the plate while he was pitching. The average pitcher would create about 40 runs at the plate in the same number of at-bats. So Ferrell's difference on offense comes to about 118 runs created. We'll be conservative here, and say that Ferrell created 100 more runs on offense than the average-hitting pitcher would.

Ferrell had 1177 earned runs in 2623.0 IP for an ERA of 4.04. The average pitcher in those parks would have had an ERA of 4.72. That gives Ferrell an ERA+ of 117.

Now let's consider Pitcher X, who had 1077 earned runs in 2623.0 IP, but is an average hitter (as far as pitchers go). Pitcher X had an ERA of 3.70. If the average pitcher had an ERA of 4.72, then Pitcher X would have an ERA+ of 128.

But what is the real difference between Ferrell and Pitcher X? Pitcher X saved 100 more runs with his pitching than Ferrell did - but Ferrell created 100 more runs with his offense than Pitcher X did. If you add runs created at the plate with runs saved on the mound, Ferrell and Pitcher X will have the exact same totals. In effect, Pitcher X and Ferrell made the exact same contribution; the only difference is that more of Pitcher X's value came on the mound, while more of Ferrell's value came in the lineup.

So when we take Ferrell's batting into consideration, Ferrell's value was about the same as an average-hitting pitcher with an ERA+ of 128 over 2623.0 IP. Ferrell's production at the plate does make a significant difference here; it's equal to 10 to 12 points in ERA+.

Let's compare this to Dazzy Vance's record. Vance had an ERA+ of 125 over 2966.7 IP. Vance had an OPS+ of 10, and created 45 runs at the plate over the course of his career. That's about 40 runs created per 2623.0 innings pitched.

Thus, Ferrell would have been a slightly better player per inning than Vance, but his career was slightly shorter than Vance's. Overall, Ferrell and Vance seem to have been pretty close; Ferrell just had more of his value in his bat than Vance did.