Elston Howard

[DoubleX]

Anyone else think that Howard was a victim of circumstance and may have otherwise put together a Hall of Fame career? By this, I mean he did not break into the big leagues until age 26 in 1955, and the fact that he did not break in earlier probably had a lot to do with the color of his skin. Then, do to the presence of Yogi Berra, Howard was not a full time catcher until 1960, and instead spent his first 5 seasons in a platoon role, mostly in the OF. Had he been able to break in earlier and start catching earlier, I think he may have made a strong Hall of Fame case.

There is a flip-side argument here in that he was an OFer by trade, having played such with the Kansas City Monarchs of the Negro Leagues and with the Yankees minor league teams when he was signed in 1950 at age 21. The Yankees converted him to a catcher in the minors under Bill Dickey's tutelage, thereyby possibly delaying his big league debut. Thus, the fact that he could play OF meant he could play at all with the Yankees (even if it was as a platoon player) as playing catcher would mean very little time behind Berra for Howard's first 5 seasons. Still, I believe that the color of his skin was a bigger factor and that he would have broke in earlier if not for that (albeit, perhaps not as a catcher because of Berra).

Nevertheless, Howard did make 9 All Star teams (12 if you count some years twice), won 2 Gold Gloves at catcher, an MVP, and another third place finish. I think he has a strong foundation for a Hall of Fame career at catcher, I think he's just lacking the requisite longevity at the position, which comes back to starting late and then being stuck behind Berra.

[leecemark]

--If he had been playing regularly at catcher when he first came up - and his performance when he got a chance suggests he could easily have been - then he would be a Hall of Famer. He had a HoF peak from 61-64 that matches up well to most Cooperstown catchers.
--How he made All Star teams prior to getting the regular catching job is a bit of a mystery to me. He was not a special hitter in his early years and he was not a good outfielder. Howard was very slow and not packing a big enough bat to be an all star based soley on his offense. Of course his managers were picking the backups (Howard only started 1 AS game) post of the time and I guess they thought their backup catcher was better than most other teams starters (which was probably true). OTOH, Howard did not get off the bench in 6 of the 9 years he was selected. Maybe they just wanted a guy who was used to not playing:laugh .
--Its too bad he didn't sign with another ballclub where he would have gotten a chance to start earlier and probably not been as handicapped by his home park. That is mitagated somewhat by the fact that it was the Yankees who turned him into a catcher. As an outfielder, even if he had twice the playing time he actually got he would be nowhere near HoF caliber.

[DoubleX]

--Its too bad he didn't sign with another ballclub where he would have gotten a chance to start earlier and probably not been as handicapped by his home park. That is mitagated somewhat by the fact that it was the Yankees who turned him into a catcher. As an outfielder, even if he had twice the playing time he actually got he would be nowhere near HoF caliber.

That's the rub - if he signed someplace else, he almost certainly would have played more and earlier, but he might not have been converted to a catcher and as an decent OFer for say 12 years, he may have even less of a Hall case than he has now as a decent OFer/backup catcher for 5 years and a very good starting catcher for 5 years.

Either way, for me the shame of it all goes back to the race issue. It's Howard's race, more than anything else, that likely kept him from having a full career and from us knowing what he could have done with an earlier opportunity. Best case scenario for Howard's Hall chances would probably have been for the Yankees to have converted him to catcher and then traded him so he could have broken in with another team (not the Kansasy City A's) as a catcher say by 1953.

[leecemark]

--I'd say by the mid-50s he was a better catcher than at least half the starters in the AL (and perhaps the majors). If he had been exactly the same player rate wise, but catching everyday for 5 additional years he would most likely be in the Hall of Fame. He is a borderliner for me as it is. I don't know that it is all or even mostly race though.
--A white catcher coming up behind Berra would have had the same issues. Nobody was taking Berra's job. To the extent that race played a role I'd say it was teams other than the Yankees who might have been less eager to give up a good package for him than they would have a white player of his ability. The Yankees were so deep and dominant that they could easily keep an outstanding player in the minors or on the bench longer than anybody else unless they got somebody even better who filled one of their few holes in exchange.

[DoubleX]

--A white catcher coming up behind Berra would have had the same issues. Nobody was taking Berra's job. To the extent that race played a role I'd say it was teams other than the Yankees who might have been less eager to give up a good package for him than they would have a white player of his ability. The Yankees were so deep and dominant that they could easily keep an outstanding player in the minors or on the bench longer than anybody else unless they got somebody even better who filled one of their few holes in exchange.

I realize a white catcher would have had the same issues, but the mere fact that Howard was 26 when he broke in, likely had a lot to do with race, IMO, even considering the Yankees depth. I believe the Yankees also had a greater reluctance than several other franchises to integrate, thus potentially further delaying Howard's debut beyond the normal depth issue.

[leecemark]

--I believe thats probably true, but coming up a couple years earlier as a utility man wouldn't make much difference in Howard's resume. He might have suffered even more by rusting on the bench a couple extra years instead of developing his catching skills and hitting everyday in the minors. Howard's race probably did hold him back, but I see Berra as the bigger detriment to his arrival as a regular and star player.
--Hey, at least he was held back by an inner circle Hall of Famer. Edgar Martinez may miss the HoF due to the immortal Jim Presley keeping him in the minors several years too long :crazy .

[Dodgerfan1]

I have never understood how Howard made the AS teams in 1957 (.253, 8 HRs in just 356 AB), 1960 (.245, 6 HRs in just 323 AB) and 1965 (.233, 9HRs in just 391 AB). Was there really that big a dearth of decent catching in the AL that year? Those are weak numbers for catchers who are NOT All-Stars.

His selection in 1957 was a joke, and had to be because Stengel was biased. He only appeared in 32 games and was very ordinary. In 1960, he shared time with Berra and Blanchard. All-Stars generally don't share time with anyone, but he didn't have a good year at the plate either, so why he was selected is anyone's guess. More Stengel bias? In '65, he was a semi-regular catcher for NY, hitting just .233 and having another weak year. This couldn't have been Stengel bias, because he was gone, so it may have been Johnny Keane bias.

Was he injured after the AS break during these seasons? Is that why he didn't play regularly? Was he that great defensively? Was his defense so good that his glove earned him AS honors? Did the rest of the league simply have lousy catchers? Or was it, indeed, bias by the Yankee managers for those years?

Where am I going wrong, here??

[Macker]

I think Howard's delay in reaching the majors has more to do with him missing the 1951-52 seasons to military service than racism. It isn't the Yankees fault Howard was already 21 when they signed him, unless they had been aware of him & chose not to sign him for a few years due to racism.

[DoubleX]

I think Howard's delay in reaching the majors has more to do with him missing the 1951-52 seasons to military service than racism. It isn't the Yankees fault Howard was already 21 when they signed him, unless they had been aware of him & chose not to sign him for a few years due to racism.

I don't see how missing one season explains how he was signed at 21 but didn't break in until 26. If he was white, the chances are he would have been signed at 18, instead of going to the negro leagues (I believe he was pretty heavily recruited to play college ball, so people were recognizing his talent out of high school). Teams, for the most part, were slow and hesistant to integrate. Signing and playing a black player was not nearly as easy a decision for a team as signing and playing a white player, and teams that placed a lot of emphasis on their tradition, such as the Yankees and Red Sox, seemed to have particular difficulty with the decision of intergrate, with whom and when. For a black player to make it, chances are it was a very calculated decision by the team, thus stacking the odds against the general pool of black players in comparison to the white pool where there was nearly as much scrutiny about whether to play a person. There are even echoes of this in Ball Four where Jim Bouton laments that even by the mid 60s, generally the only black players that got a shot in the Majros were the ones that had a good shot at being stars - whereas the average black player was generally not given a shot and the average white player generally preferred. Integration was not an overnight process, it was not like once Jackie Robinson came suddenly black players playing from a management standpoint was like white players, and I have to believe that the fact that Howard did not play until 26 had a lot to do with the color of his skin. If the Yankees did not have a problem with race, then why didn't they integrate sooner instead of waiting until 1955? Howard had a tremendous season in 1954 in the minors - why not bring him up then? The team probably just wasn't ready to introduce it's first black player, IMO.

[Macker]

But you are talking about his circumstances. I took your main point to be whether he could have broken in earlier & started catching earlier.

All I'm saying is that once signed, two years (not one) in the military had more to do with his delay in reaching the majors than the color of his skin. He played three seasons in the minor leagues before reaching the majors. That's not a bad ascent considering the levels of organized ball at the time. His first two minor league seasons were good but not outstanding. His third season was outstanding.

It is also possible Howard's race helped him get to the majors. I have heard old-timers claim the Yankees were in no hurry to have a black everyday player, so Howard was the perfect guy to bring up as a backup/platoon player.

[DoubleX]

But you are talking about his circumstances. I took your main point to be whether he could have broken in earlier & started catching earlier.

All I'm saying is that once signed, two years (not one) in the military had more to do with his delay in reaching the majors than the color of his skin. He played three seasons in the minor leagues before reaching the majors. That's not a bad ascent considering the levels of organized ball at the time. His first two minor league seasons were good but not outstanding. His third season was outstanding.

It is also possible Howard's race helped him get to the majors. I have heard old-timers claim the Yankees were in no hurry to have a black everyday player, so Howard was the perfect guy to bring up as a backup/platoon player.

To me though, the issue of when Howard broke in is directly related to his race. It likely delayed when he was signed and likely delayed his ascent to the Majors, IMO. If he was signed sooner, he likely would have broken in sooner, and I believe if he was white, he would have been signed at an earlier age instead of going to the Negro Leagues. I've also heard things about the Yankees reluctance to integrate, which supports the argument that Howard's debut may have been delayed longer than it would have been if he was white. Certainly the years in service would have a delaying affect, but he was already 22 by that point - so again, if he was white, he may have been signed by 18, and ready to break in by 21, meaning that he would have lost time after being ready to start, much like Willie Mays or Don Newcombe did. Any way you slice it though, 26 is a late age to break in for a player of that caliber, and I have to believe race played a major role in that.

[KCGHOST]

I think the real problem here is we are guessing why something didn't happen. While the Yanks didn't sign him until he was 21 no one else did either. His military obligation hurt his career at a most inopportune time. And since he did sign with the Yankees he had Yogi Berra to contend with.

What I do see is that if you pad Howard's career with four more good years (say 1958 equivalent) he still isn't an Hofer.

[SBBL]

It is also possible Howard's race helped him get to the majors.

I don't believe any black player was helped, in any way imaginable, by the evil of racism. No case to be made here at all !

[Macker]

I don't believe any black player was helped, in any way imaginable, by the evil of racism. No case to be made here at all !

You missed the point entirely. Some teams were in no hurry to have a starting black player. Perhaps the Yankees chose to break the barrier by having their first black be a platoon player. There are a lot of players who had good seasons in the minors without cracking the majors. All I'm saying is three years in the Yankee system isn't a slow rise to the top, especially considering the size of minor league ball at the time & the fact that the Yankees were in the middle of a dynasty. Had Howard been white, I don't see him reaching the majors any more quickly. (I realize he likely would have started in the minors at a younger age had he been white. I'm talking about the period beginning when he signed.)

[DoubleX]

You missed the point entirely. Some teams were in no hurry to have a starting black player. Perhaps the Yankees chose to break the barrier by having their first black be a platoon player. There are a lot of players who had good seasons in the minors without cracking the majors. All I'm saying is three years in the Yankee system isn't a slow rise to the top, especially considering the size of minor league ball at the time & the fact that the Yankees were in the middle of a dynasty. Had Howard been white, I don't see him reaching the majors any more quickly. (I realize he likely would have started in the minors at a younger age had he been white. I'm talking about the period beginning when he signed.)

I generally agree, but 26 still seems like a very late age to start for someone who showed the ability that Howard showed in the previous years in the minors. It wasn't like the Yankees were adverse to having young players on the team back then - the average age of the roster was just 28. Of position players on the roster in 1955 when Howard broke in and signed after WWII, here are the ages of when some of those players originally broke in with the Yankees, and how many years it took from when they were signed (and while I don't know for sure, it's a good bet that at least a few of them served time during Korea like Howard):

Hank Bauer - Broke in at 25 in 1948, 2 years after signing (likely delayed by WWII)
Yogi Berra - Broke in at 21 in 1946, 3 years after signing
Johnny Blanchard - Broke in at 22 in 1955, 4 years after signing
Andy Carey - Broke in at 20 in 1952, 2 years after signing
Tom Carroll - Broke in at 18 in 1955, same year as signing
Bob Cerv - Broke in at 25 1951, 1 year after signing
Mickey Mantle - Broke in at 19 in 1951, 2 years after signing
Billy Martin - Broke in at 22 in 1950, 1 year after signing
Gil McDougald - Broke in at 23 in 1951, 3 years after signing
Bobby Richardson - Broke in at 19 in 1955, 2 years after signing
Moose Skowron - Broke in at 23 in 1954, 4 years after signiing
Marv Throneberry - Broke in at 21 in 1955, 3 years after signing

It seems from this that the Yankees generally had no problem with bringing up players at a young age with only a couple of seasons of minor league experience. Howard at 26, seems to be an exception, and I believe that likely has to do with race just as its likely that he wasn't signed until 21 because of race despite being highly regarded coming out of high school. Additionally, of the 12 players listed above, three, like Howard, were 21 or older when signed (Bauer, Cerv, and Martin), and of these three, only Bauer spent more than a year in the minors, playing two. Now if the team is willing to bring up someone like Bob Cerv after a year of minor league seasoning, I don't see why they would be hesistant to bring up Howard until he's 26.

And I don't think the "stuck behind Berra" argument explains much because Howard was brought up as a platoon player anyway, playing mostly OF with very little time at catcher until 1960. He could have filled that same role a couple of years earlier. Of course, that might not help his Hall of Fame argument much as the crux of his argument would be as a catcher, and being called up earlier would not have affected that.

[Cougar]

People are circling around to part of Howard's case -- that he was the first black Yankee. The Yankees of the 1950's were the flagship franchise of the major leagues, and integration wasn't going to be complete until the Yankees integrated. Maybe that's wrong, and unfair to the other 15 ML franchises, but I think it's true. Howard bore a lot of extra pressure and notoriety as a consequence, and did it with dignity and grace. In my book, that counts for a lot.

Just as a thought experiment, imagine if Howard had complained the Yankees were "holding him back" (which he might have had every right to do)...it could have been construed badly in any number of ways, and had negative consequences extending beyond just Elston Howard and the Yankees.

[Macker]

I generally agree, but 26 still seems like a very late age to start for someone who showed the ability that Howard showed in the previous years in the minors.

Yes, 26 is a bit late, but you have to remember, he wasn't a catcher until he was 24. He played as an outfielder at age 21. Had he not been in the service at ages 22-23, the Yankees really didn't have much need for him as a slow-footed outfielder. Some of the players you listed reached the majors based on team needs. Also, I think its disingenuous to say players broke in as early as you listed, when several of them had just cups of coffee for a year or two before really cracking the lineup. Let's look at when they actually stuck with the big club.

Hank Bauer - Broke in at 25 in 1948, 2 years after signing (likely delayed by WWII) [Actually signed in 1941; missed 1942-45 seasons to military]

Yogi Berra - Broke in at 21 in 1946, 3 years after signing

Johnny Blanchard - Broke in at 22 in 1955, 4 years after signing [Missed 1953-54 to military; Played just 1 game in 1955, didn't reach majors again until 1959 (8 years after signing)]

Andy Carey - Broke in at 20 in 1952, 2 years after signing [played only 16 games in majors in 1952]

Tom Carroll - Broke in at 18 in 1955, same year as signing [He was a Bonus Baby and Yankees couldn't send him to minors for two years, which they did the first chance they got. He was in minors until traded to KC A's in 1959.]

Bob Cerv - Broke in at 25 1951, 1 year after signing [Played 12, 36 & 8 games in parts of three seasons before sticking 4 years after signing.]

Mickey Mantle - Broke in at 19 in 1951, 2 years after signing

Billy Martin - Broke in at 22 in 1950, 1 year after signing

Gil McDougald - Broke in at 23 in 1951, 3 years after signing

Bobby Richardson - Broke in at 19 in 1955, 2 years after signing [Played 11 & 5 games before sticking with Yankees in 1957]

Moose Skowron - Broke in at 23 in 1954, 4 years after signiing

Marv Throneberry - Broke in at 21 in 1955, 3 years after signing [Played 1 game in 1955, didn't get back to majors unitl 1958.]

So you have two Hall of Famers and a couple of guys who were needed to fill positions. The Yankees had no big need for Howard even when they did bring him up.

He started catching at age 24, had a good-but-not-great season, then had an outstanding season at age 25, and he was in the big leagues the following year. Howard may have reached the majors after three minor league seasons by being the right fit at the right time.

[ElHalo]

I generally agree, but 26 still seems like a very late age to start for someone who showed the ability that Howard showed in the previous years in the minors.

This, of course, reminds me of another borderline Hall case I've been mulling lately. Jorge Posada.

Posada was essentially the same age as Howard coming up; when Jorge played in 60 games in 1997 (having played only 9 games total prior to that), he was about six months younger than Howard was when he played 97 games in his rookie year of 1955. Howard played about 200 more total games than Jorge has thus far, although he played significantly fewer games per season than Jorge. They both started catching relatively late in their careers, which possibly allowed them to remain valuable players longer than most catchers.

Of course, Howard dropped in productivity precipitously after age 35, the age Jorge is currently during what's looking to be his best season. Jorge thus far has probably been far better than Howard was through a similar point in his career.

Who do you think is more Hall worthy?

[DoubleX]

So you have two Hall of Famers and a couple of guys who were needed to fill positions. The Yankees had no big need for Howard even when they did bring him up.

He started catching at age 24, had a good-but-not-great season, then had an outstanding season at age 25, and he was in the big leagues the following year. Howard may have reached the majors after three minor league seasons by being the right fit at the right time.

It's not disengenous at all to say that these players broke in, because the point is that they broke in, while Howard did not. If the team thought it could use Bob Cerve or Marv Throneberry, even for just a few games, why not Elston Howard? And it can't just be the catching issue because it would be 5 seasons until he would be a regular ML catcher. The Yankees could have called him earlier and had him be a platoon OFer just as they did during Howard's first few years.

[DoubleX]

This, of course, reminds me of another borderline Hall case I've been mulling lately. Jorge Posada.

Posada was essentially the same age as Howard coming up; when Jorge played in 60 games in 1997 (having played only 9 games total prior to that), he was about six months younger than Howard was when he played 97 games in his rookie year of 1955. Howard played about 200 more total games than Jorge has thus far, although he played significantly fewer games per season than Jorge. They both started catching relatively late in their careers, which possibly allowed them to remain valuable players longer than most catchers.

Of course, Howard dropped in productivity precipitously after age 35, the age Jorge is currently during what's looking to be his best season. Jorge thus far has probably been far better than Howard was through a similar point in his career.

Who do you think is more Hall worthy?

Good question. First, I'm not sure the age thing is that good of a comparison because of the difference in eras. More players now going to college first and more emphasis is now placed on minor league seasoning. Still, Posada may have been a little bit on the old side before getting a real shot.

As for who is more Hall worthy, it's a tough question. Howard trumps Posada in the subjective Fame elements, notably an MVP award (plus another 3rd place finish), 9 All Star selections (even if a few were questionable), 2 Gold Gloves, 4 WS rings and 10 pennants, and being notable as the first person of color on the Yankees. But his career was fairly short with unimpressive counting numbers, and his potential value perhaps significantly mitigated because he was playing OF for years when he may have been a very good catcher. Thus, his Hall of Fame case rests on hypotheticals, which is what I believe this thread to be about.

As for Posada, due to his late start, his career has been fairly short to this point, but it's becoming pretty clear that he is a rare talent in terms of offense at catcher. His 124 OPS+ blows away Howard's 108, and Posada has caught 200+ more games than Howard thus far. Posada does not have a particularly good defensive reputation, but he's known as a leader and to work well with his pitchers. He also has the 4 rings and 6 pennants, and 5 All Star appearances, still this pales to what Howard has in the subjective "Fame" categories.

So all being said, I'd say that just based on on the field production, Posada has probably now built a better Hall of Fame case than Howard, but when you factor in some of the other things, I think it becomes really close, to the point where Howard might actually feel like a more appropriate Hall of Famer at this time. However, I think after a few more seasons, Posada could have a pretty strong case for being in. At this point I think it's just the brevity of his career holding him back, and subsequently the low counting totals. But the fact that he started catching relatively late, not having caught 110+ ML games until age 28, bodes pretty well. He will inevitably decline over the next few years, but I think he could still have at least a few more years left in him where he can be considered at least a productive hitting catcher - he's such a good hitting catcher right now, that it would take quite a dramatic and sudden decline for him to not have value behind the plate, and I just can't imagine that sharp of a decline happening in the next couple of years.