Dave Concepcion?

[redlegsfan21]

Do you think that Dave Concepcion should be in the HOF?

[JRJohnson6]

This has nothing to do with Dave Concepcion, nor do I really have an intellegent comment about him. However, I do have a question about being a Reds fan. How much thought has your organization put into always having an interim manager? Seems like imterim managers are the only managers that the Reds play well under. Maybe they should hire another two weeks before the season starts, and then at the Break fire him and hire another one. I'm telling you, they would win the Series! :nod: Just giving you some jabs. Have fun with this discussion. I'm interested in what people have to say about him.

[redlegsfan21]

I'll make the first argument. If you look at Davey's numbers and say, those are not HOF numbers, he should at least get in for Major Contributions to the Game. Every SS that you see wearing number 13 probably idolized Davey Concepcion. That includes defensive phenomenons Omar Vizquel and Alex Gonzalez (the one on the Reds). He is a great hero in baseball for the people of the Caribbean and his home country of Venezuela.

Davey was also the best defensive shortstop of the 1970's winning 5 Gold Gloves, he was a 9-time All-Star Game representative, and even won two Sliver Sluggers. Baseball Reference compares Davey Concepcion to Omar Vizquel, Bobby Wallace, Luis Aparicio, Pee Wee Reese, and Red Schoendienst.

[jalbright]

I'll make the first argument. If you look at Davey's numbers and say, those are not HOF numbers, he should at least get in for Major Contributions to the Game. Every SS that you see wearing number 13 probably idolized Davey Concepcion. That includes defensive phenomenons Omar Vizquel and Alex Gonzalez (the one on the Reds). He is a great hero in baseball for the people of the Caribbean and his home country of Venezuela.

Davey was also the best defensive shortstop of the 1970's winning 5 Gold Gloves, he was a 9-time All-Star Game representative, and even won two Sliver Sluggers. Baseball Reference compares Davey Concepcion to Omar Vizquel, Bobby Wallace, Luis Aparicio, Pee Wee Reese, and Red Schoendienst.

Also in the most similar list are Tony Fernandez, Bert Campaneris, Frank White, Tony Taylor, and Royce Clayton. Overall, I think Concepcion belongs more with this group than the HOFers.

Certainly, the All-Star selections and Gold Gloves are plusses for his case. However, if we look at his MVP shares (404th), HOF Standards (388th), Gray Ink (871st), Gray Ink plus Black Ink of 25 (well below the 50 cutoff I use for middle infielders and catchers); a finish of 22nd among SS in the latest BJHA in career Win Shares; 41st among those same BJHA SS in top three seasons in Win Shares; 35th among those same BJHA SS in top five consecutive seasons in Win Shares; and a career Win Shares per 162 games below the bottom of All-Star level of 20 at 17.52 are all minuses to some degree. The plusses just aren't enough to overcome the minuses in my book.

As for the contributions to the game, the argument made in the quoted portion just doesn't cut it. A guy can be a hero in his homeland for his play in baseball without being a HOFer. The quality of his play (and/or contributions as a manager, coach, scout, umpire, or executive) is the determining factor in all but rare cases.

Jim Albright

[philkid3]

As a sabermetric geek, a Hall of Fame stickler, a hater of Joe Morgan and someone who cares nothing about awards. . .

. . . my peers are amazed that I'd put Concepcion in.


Hell, if Derek Jeter is already considered a first ballot lock. . .

[KCGHOST]

....he should at least get in for Major Contributions to the Game. Every SS that you see wearing number 13 probably idolized Davey Concepcion. That includes defensive phenomenons Omar Vizquel and Alex Gonzalez (the one on the Reds). He is a great hero in baseball for the people of the Caribbean and his home country of Venezuela.

Concepcion was a poor offensive player posting an OPS+ of 88. His RCAA was -165 (think Bill Russell or Chris Speier). Yes, he was a very good defender, but not enough to elevate that bad of an offensive career to an HoF level.

Also, To me a clear sign of a player who is not an HoFer is when his supporters have to reach for the intangibles card.

[PVNICK]

Concepcion was a poor offensive player posting an OPS+ of 88. His RCAA was -165 (think Bill Russell or Chris Speier). Yes, he was a very good defender, but not enough to elevate that bad of an offensive career to an HoF level.

Also, To me a clear sign of a player who is not an HoFer is when his supporters have to reach for the intangibles card.

Maybe, I'm just lazy, but how badly did his first 3-4 years when he was more Enzo Hernandez than Bill Russell drag the OPS+ down.

[jalbright]

Maybe, I'm just lazy, but how badly did his first 3-4 years when he was more Enzo Hernandez than Bill Russell drag the OPS+ down.

Considering that's only 1081 PA out of a career of 9640 PA and that he only had six seasons over 100, and never over 116 (three of those were 106 or 107, and a 114 in 357 PA), mixed in with six of 88 or less in over 500 PA, not very much.

[DiMag4Life]

Concepion was a good player on a great team...... but not HoF worthy.

[Colorado Express]

One of the best defensive SS I've ever seen play the game, but definitely not a HOFer.

[Ohplayer]

I think he belongs in. What do you think?
Year Ag Tm Lg G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG *OPS+ TB SH SF IBB HBP GDP
+--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+----+---+---+---+---+---+
1970 22 CIN NL 101 265 38 69 6 3 1 19 10 2 23 45 .260 .324 .317 70 84 3 2 5 3 10
1971 23 CIN NL 130 327 24 67 4 4 1 20 9 3 18 51 .205 .246 .251 44 82 8 1 2 0 10
1972 24 CIN NL 119 378 40 79 13 2 2 29 13 6 32 65 .209 .272 .270 59 102 5 4 8 2 11
1973 25 CIN NL 89 328 39 94 18 3 8 46 22 5 21 55 .287 .327 .433 114 142 2 5 3 1 7 AS
1974 26 CIN NL 160 594 70 167 25 1 14 82 41 6 44 79 .281 .335 .397 106 236 5 4 10 6 20 MVP-15
1975 27 CIN NL 140 507 62 139 23 1 5 49 33 6 39 51 .274 .326 .353 88 179 6 4 4 2 17 AS
1976 28 CIN NL 152 576 74 162 28 7 9 69 21 10 49 68 .281 .335 .401 107 231 4 6 11 1 11 AS
1977 29 CIN NL 156 572 59 155 26 3 8 64 29 7 46 77 .271 .322 .369 84 211 6 6 6 0 15 AS
1978 30 CIN NL 153 565 75 170 33 4 6 67 23 10 51 83 .301 .357 .405 114 229 3 4 4 1 14 AS
1979 31 CIN NL 149 590 91 166 25 3 16 84 19 7 64 73 .281 .348 .415 107 245 6 6 5 0 18 MVP-9,AS
1980 32 CIN NL 156 622 72 162 31 8 5 77 12 2 37 107 .260 .300 .360 83 224 2 6 2 1 20 AS
1981 33 CIN NL 106 421 57 129 28 0 5 67 4 5 37 61 .306 .358 .409 116 172 2 7 1 1 13 SS,MVP-4,AS
1982 34 CIN NL 147 572 48 164 25 4 5 53 13 6 45 61 .287 .337 .371 97 212 2 4 4 0 20 SS,AS
1983 35 CIN NL 143 528 54 123 22 0 1 47 14 9 56 81 .233 .303 .280 61 148 2 7 9 0 21
1984 36 CIN NL 154 531 46 130 26 1 4 58 22 6 52 72 .245 .307 .320 74 170 8 9 5 0 9
1985 37 CIN NL 155 560 59 141 19 2 7 48 16 12 50 67 .252 .314 .330 78 185 3 4 3 3 23
1986 38 CIN NL 90 311 42 81 13 2 3 30 13 2 26 43 .260 .314 .344 79 107 5 4 1 0 13
1987 39 CIN NL 104 279 32 89 15 0 1 33 4 3 28 24 .319 .377 .384 100 107 1 3 5 0 10
1988 40 CIN NL 84 197 11 39 9 0 0 8 3 2 18 23 .198 .265 .244 45 48 1 0 5 0 4
+--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+----+---+---+---+---+---+
19 Seasons 8723 2326 48 950 109 1186 .267 .322 .357 88 74 86 93 21 266
2488 993 389 101 321 736 3114

[willshad]

what exactly about him makes you think he was more than just a solid player on great teams? He was maybe the best shortstop of his era..but one can say the same about Larry Bowa. Back then shortstops were there for their glove and couldnt hit. If he belongs then Vizquel certainly does, and Tony Frenandez is a slam dunk.

[jalbright]

merged threads

[leecemark]

what exactly about him makes you think he was more than just a solid player on great teams? He was maybe the best shortstop of his era..but one can say the same about Larry Bowa. Back then shortstops were there for their glove and couldnt hit. If he belongs then Vizquel certainly does, and Tony Frenandez is a slam dunk.

--Conception was alot better hitter and fielder than Bowa. If Conception wasn't the best SS of the 70s (which I think he was) then it would be Toby Harrah. Harrah was the best hitting SS of the decade, but average - at best - with the glove. Still being the best of a weak field at his position for the decade doesn't quite get him over the line for me. Better than some who did get elected though.

[steelcurtain76]

Do you think that Dave Concepcion should be in the HOF?

How does he compare to players like Rizzuto and Reese in everyone's mind. I never saw either one of them play, but I understand that they were considered the sparkplugs of their teams.

I watched Concepcion growing up and went to many Reds game's. Based upon when he played, how important he was to the Reds middle infield, and that he was every bit the offensive player that Reese and Rizzuto were, I don't see why he isn't a HOF.

During the 1970's, from about 1974 through 1980, he was considered the best SS in the game.

[Paul Wendt]

what exactly about him makes you think he was more than just a solid player on great teams? He was maybe the best shortstop of his era..but one can say the same about Larry Bowa. Back then shortstops were there for their glove and couldnt hit.
Most of them didn't hit much. That is one thing Concepcion has going for him, he put up ten full seasons as a league-average batter. Because he was exceptional with the glove and arm --and probably because he was a link to Cincinnati's glory days-- he was able to play forever and ruin his career averages as much as anyone has done.

Was he the greatest shortstop of the 70s? Maybe so. People thought Rick Burleson was better but that was Fenway Park. He was a stronger batter than Burleson (or Yount, for most of his prime seasons, which preceded Yount's). Templeton? Maybe he was better for half a decade.

Among the other dominating teams of the 1970s, Baltimore, Los Angeles, Kansas City, and Philadelphia had stability but relatively weak links in Belanger, Russell, Patek, and Bowa --none remotely a league-average batter. Campaneris was one of Oakland's stars but he was past his prime as a batter, like Concepcion a decade later. Pittsburgh never replaced Gene Alley. (Jackie Hernandez, Dal Maxvill, Frank Taveras, Tim Foli!)
If he belongs then Vizquel certainly does, and Tony Fernandez is a slam dunk.
Vizquel has the record-breaking longevity. I think that will probably do it at the ballot box. Tony Fernandez has the killer hole in the middle of his career.

[Fuzzy Bear]

How does he compare to players like Rizzuto and Reese in everyone's mind. I never saw either one of them play, but I understand that they were considered the sparkplugs of their teams.

I watched Concepcion growing up and went to many Reds game's. Based upon when he played, how important he was to the Reds middle infield, and that he was every bit the offensive player that Reese and Rizzuto were, I don't see why he isn't a HOF.

During the 1970's, from about 1974 through 1980, he was considered the best SS in the game.

This basically summarizes the case for Concepcion. That, plus the fact that Concepcion was, most definitely, NOT be the worst SS in the HOF.

On the other hand, Concepcion ranks behind Alan Trammell for the HOF. I personally rank Concepcion behind Vern Stephens and Cecil Travis (but ahead of Marty Marion).

Concepcion is, truly, a borderline candidate. There are a number of shortstops of Concepcion's credentials and quality that are in the HOF, and a number that are not. I guess one way to determine Davey's HOF-worthiness is to compare him to Aparicio. Why is Looie in the HOF and Davey outside the HOF?