hiding the hands (good or bad cue?)

[MannyRamirez2006]

what do you guys think about hiding the hands?? Good or bad cue. I took a video of my swing and I saw a lot of things wrong with my swing and I think one of my main problems (which a lot of people probably struggle with) is keeping my hands back. What do you guys think about hiding your hands?? Is it a good cue?? It seems as though most hitting instructors stress keeping the hands back at the rear shoulder at swing initiation.

[jbooth]

what do you guys think about hiding the hands?? Good or bad cue. I took a video of my swing and I saw a lot of things wrong with my swing and I think one of my main problems (which a lot of people probably struggle with) is keeping my hands back. What do you guys think about hiding your hands?? Is it a good cue?? It seems as though most hitting instructors stress keeping the hands back at the rear shoulder at swing initiation.

You need to understand the difference between your position at setup, waiting for the pitch, and the position from which the swing is launched. You have to attack the ball from a position where your hands are back at the shoulder. If you watch MLB hitters carefully, in slow motion, you will see that they all move the hands into the shoulder before they turn into the ball.

They may drop their hands from above (Pujols, Giambi, Griffey), they may lift them up to the shoulder (Ruth, Bonds, Williams, Sheffield), or they may move them back (Jeff Kent), or the may have them away from their body, and pull them in. All of that is personal preference in getting ready. They all swing from pretty much the same position.

Which is, right here;

http://firstpickclub.com/images/arod_no_1.jpg

http://firstpickclub.com/images/delgado_no_1.jpg

http://firstpickclub.com/images/griffey_1_pos.jpg

[Xavier&Trin...]

Its a good cue. I hve used this cue and it makes sense to the student.

[virg]

what do you guys think about hiding the hands?? Good or bad cue.

All good advice from jbooth.
Let me just say it another way- if the pitcher cannot see your hands while you're in your stance and before his windup starts, then you'll be too slow getting around.

You hide the hands with your cocking motion, as the pitcher winds up. This cue is about your cocking motion, not just your hands. Also keep in mind not to let this cause head motion coming back out of the hiding position because that will happen as the pitch flies.

[Stealth]

This is a tough one. With the LL World Series on tv and of course MLB on tv you can watch and see the difference in loading patterns. Many of the LL players "hide their hands" and get them too far back and behind. From this point all they can do to hit the ball is open the front shoulder to have any chance at hitting the ball. They cannot catch up to the fastballs with this loading pattern so their "mind" tells them to open up quicker. If it's an inside fastball all is well - anything else and they have no chance.

Now if you watch the MLB players many of them have their hands out in front more and when they load it's more of what Dmac would call a tip and they don't get their hands trapped behind them. Look at the three pictures Jbooth posted. The hands are back but not behind (Griffey a little more) and the barell is pointed toward the pitcher and not pointing behind them like the LL players.

As in all cues depending on the situation it can be ok. As a blanket statement I don't like it because 99% of the people being told this cue don't understand it.

[tom.guerry]

it depends

[MannyRamirez2006]

You need to understand the difference between your position at setup, waiting for the pitch, and the position from which the swing is launched. You have to attack the ball from a position where your hands are back at the shoulder. If you watch MLB hitters carefully, in slow motion, you will see that they all move the hands into the shoulder before they turn into the ball.

They may drop their hands from above (Pujols, Giambi, Griffey), they may lift them up to the shoulder (Ruth, Bonds, Williams, Sheffield), or they may move them back (Jeff Kent), or the may have them away from their body, and pull them in. All of that is personal preference in getting ready. They all swing from pretty much the same position.

Which is, right here;

http://firstpickclub.com/images/arod_no_1.jpg

http://firstpickclub.com/images/delgado_no_1.jpg

http://firstpickclub.com/images/griffey_1_pos.jpg

Is it me or in these pictures does it look like the hands are even further back then the rear shoulder??

[virg]

Is it me or in these pictures does it look like the hands are even further back then the rear shoulder??

It's YOUR shoulder and they're Your hands. Make it work for your own frame and no other. How much like these guys are you built?

[jbooth]

Is it me or in these pictures does it look like the hands are even further back then the rear shoulder??

It's you, and your inability to transform the photo from 2D to 3D in your mind. The hands appear to be further back because their shoulders are turned. Also, the camera is aiming at them from up the base line. If you imagine swinging around more to a straight side view, their hands are at their shoulder.

[LClifton]

what do you guys think about hiding the hands??
When they get "hidden" is something to consider, as Virg has said.

How they "hide" is important IMO.

There is a certain amount of "travel" in the lead shoulder area.

As an experiment:
With the underneath part of your forearm (the non hairy side) resting against your body (between your stomach and sternum) and your arm bent at 90 degrees (that angle varies from hitter to hitter)----
----push your hands back toward the catcher WITHOUT changing the angle of your elbow.
(Do Not turn your shoulders, they will become turned in the two handed example below)
How far do the hands move back?
(this is range of motion in lead "shoulder area")
Does it feel as though there is a definite stopping point?

Start over (relaxed)
Now put your top hand on as if you are holding a bat.
This time, without twisting your upper body push your hands back as described above and pull your top hand elbow "back behind you" til you feel the stopping point.
(take care not to extend your elbow).....

What does your lead shoulder do?
If the pitcher was looking at your hands would he be able to see them?

Notice in the still pictures posted by Jim Booth what part of the lead shoulder these hitters are looking over...This is accomplished, IMO, with the load described above, which coincidentally,, hides the hands.

I like this,,,(if we could see the pitcher it would prove it)
You hide the hands with your cocking motion, as the pitcher winds up.

http://lclifton.hittingillustrated.com/cabrerra stage 1.gif

[Encinitas]

Let's expand a little further on Lclifton's example. If you have quicktime you can download these as I don't think I have made any animated gifs of them.

Although it's from quite a distance I have Miguel Cabrera hitting two hard shots to opposite sides of the field on the same day. If you try Lclifton's experiment you should feel a really good and stretched front shoulder which you obtained without twisting the spine. Also notice the sequence in these Cabrera clips compared to the pitcher's release. Note how we don't get to this position, and then stride.....rather we get to this position as we stride. Split the helmet. Load the barrel as you stride. As you see from the side shots of Cabrera the front elbow angle doesn't change drastically, and yet he manages to get "hidden hands".

Again keep in mind the angle is not perfect so Jim Booth has a good point (hands are not perfectly hidden) however it also clear from video that they are not where the started. The difference is most youth hitters are taught to pull the hands back, (separate), then stride.

Ok on with the clips. I like the far away shot because it allows you to see the timing of everything related to release and the camera appears to be slightly closer to dead center that what we normally see. Sorry they are grainy.

First a pulled home run close to dead center camera (http://coachdm.hittingillustrated.com/clips/040207_full_front.MPG)
Same Shot, close up (http://coachdm.hittingillustrated.com/clips/040207_slo_front.MPG)
Same shot from the side (http://coachdm.hittingillustrated.com/clips/040207_side.MPG)

Here same game an oppo double or triple can't remember (http://coachdm.hittingillustrated.com/clips/040207_oppo_full_front.MPG)
Slow and close (http://coachdm.hittingillustrated.com/clips/040207_oppo.MPG)

[Stealth]

When they get "hidden" is something to consider, as Virg has said.

How they "hide" is important IMO.

There is a certain amount of "travel" in the lead shoulder area.

As an experiment:
With the underneath part of your forearm (the non hairy side) resting against your body (between your stomach and sternum) and your arm bent at 90 degrees (that angle varies from hitter to hitter)----
----push your hands back toward the catcher WITHOUT changing the angle of your elbow.
(Do Not turn your shoulders, they will become turned in the two handed example below)
How far do the hands move back?
(this is range of motion in lead "shoulder area")
Does it feel as though there is a definite stopping point?

Start over (relaxed)
Now put your top hand on as if you are holding a bat.
This time, without twisting your upper body push your hands back as described above and pull your top hand elbow "back behind you" til you feel the stopping point.
(take care not to extend your elbow).....

What does your lead shoulder do?
If the pitcher was looking at your hands would he be able to see them?

Notice in the still pictures posted by Jim Booth what part of the lead shoulder these hitters are looking over...This is accomplished, IMO, with the load described above, which coincidentally,, hides the hands.

I like this,,,(if we could see the pitcher it would prove it)


http://lclifton.hittingillustrated.com/cabrerra stage 1.gif

Good points - but this backs up my post to some extent. How many people out there that are saying "hide the hands" understand the swing like you do? If someone went out to a group of kids and told them to "hide their hands" during bp I can only imagine what would happen. Cue's are good ONLY if you understand what the cue really means!

[Encinitas]

Incidentally Stealth I am not trying to disagree with your point either, it's more the look of hidden hands.

One benefit I see Cabrera's setup (assuming you teach your own kid) is your "hide the hands" or "keep the shoulder in" coach will lay off.

[tom.guerry]

for oppo hides hands more, back elbow more back away from side, weight shifts more forward/closed, more inside swing plane to match dropping outside ball.

[Stealth]

for oppo hides hands more, back elbow more back away from side, weight shifts more forward/closed, more inside swing plane to match dropping outside ball.

Tom - your wrong on part of your above quote. You load the same way every time. You can't think hide your hands more to hit oppo, just as you can't step toward where you want to hit the ball. You load the same way everytime.

Encinitas - no worries. I am only pointing out almost all cue's are bad if you don't understand what they mean!

[tom.guerry]

stealth-

the way I feel it, I can start loading the same way, then interrupt/drop and tilt sooner for inside (hands hide less, elboe gets away from side less) or keep going longer for outside.

Still as Epstein says, the timing difference in vs out is enough different it's better to look in or out then adjust up/down if you get the pitch you want to hit.

see recent batspeed thread with RQL for example:

http://www.batspeed.com/messageboard/82922.html

[LClifton]

Good points - but this backs up my post to some extent. How many people out there that are saying "hide the hands" understand the swing like you do? If someone went out to a group of kids and told them to "hide their hands" during bp I can only imagine what would happen. Cue's are good ONLY if you understand what the cue really means!

Stealth,
Jim Booth has posted on this site his interpretation of the cue "swing down"...and did a dang good job making it clear, and that explanation could help people.
I am doing the same.
I explained the movements, as I see them, that ---"hide the hands."

I like hide the hands as a cue,
better than I like that goofy fence drill as a drill.:nod:
(Just ribbin you Jim, don't get P.O'd !)

[Stealth]

Stealth,
Jim Booth has posted on this site his interpretation of the cue "swing down"...and did a dang good job making it clear, and that explanation could help people.
I am doing the same.
I explained the movements, as I see them, that ---"hide the hands."

I like hide the hands as a cue,
better than I like that goofy fence drill as a drill.:nod:
(Just ribbin you Jim, don't get P.O'd !)


Loren - if you were helping out my son and were explaining this cue I would have no problem with it. You understand the cue AND can explain it - not many can. For the many others.....................