Keeping Weight Back and Drifting

[Billybob622]

Ok I have a question about drifting foward. As a pitcher, my pitching coach has told me to keep my weight back to create more power. However, after reading Dick mills blog, http://www.pitching.com/blog/164/tim-lincecum-how-his-mechanics-not-arm-strength-equal-95-100-mph-fastballs/ Dick Mills states that moving foward as fast as possible away from the rubber towards homeplate, creates a longer stride and generates power, which explains how Tim Lincecum and Roy Oswalt can throw in the upper 90s, even though they aren't big people. But, my pitching coach says that keeping weight back, starting slow at the beginning of my motion, then driving towards homeplate will create more power. (Note: I am a slinger) However, when using both ways, I generate power that is pretty good. (my fastball ranges from 83-86) My own opinion though, is that I throw harder when drifting. When it comes to command, pitching both ways, I have about the same command. Also, my pitches move a lot more when i drift, but I feel more controlled when i keep my weight back. So, the overall question, is who's right? Dick Mills or my pitching coach?

p.s. - If I'm confusing myself, please let me know. All responses are appreciated.

[Chris O'Leary]

Ok I have a question about drifting foward. As a pitcher, my pitching coach has told me to keep my weight back to create more power. However, after reading Dick mills blog, http://www.pitching.com/blog/164/tim-lincecum-how-his-mechanics-not-arm-strength-equal-95-100-mph-fastballs/ Dick Mills states that moving foward as fast as possible away from the rubber towards homeplate, creates a longer stride and generates power, which explains how Tim Lincecum and Roy Oswalt can throw in the upper 90s, even though they aren't big people. But, my pitching coach says that keeping weight back, starting slow at the beginning of my motion, then driving towards homeplate will create more power. (Note: I am a slinger) However, when using both ways, I generate power that is pretty good. (my fastball ranges from 83-86) My own opinion though, is that I throw harder when drifting. When it comes to command, pitching both ways, I have about the same command. Also, my pitches move a lot more when i drift, but I feel more controlled when i keep my weight back. So, the overall question, is who's right? Dick Mills or my pitching coach?

p.s. - If I'm confusing myself, please let me know. All responses are appreciated.

If you look at most pros, few if any come to the balance point. Instead, most start drifting sideways toward the plate at the top of their leg lift. They do this by pushing sideways back toward 2B with their Glove Side foot.

http://www.pitchingclips.com/clips/mariano_rivera1.gif

http://www.pitchingclips.com/clips/curt_schilling.gif

http://www.pitchingclips.com/clips/tom_seaver.gif

However, it's inaccurate to describe this as drop and drive (e.g. that pitchers drive off the rubber as they get close to the planting of the Glove Side foot).

Instead, it's more drive and drop.

I think Dick Mills has gone off the rails to a degree with his latest stuff. I think he's putting too much emphasis on the drive and stride length and not enough on hip/shoulder separation.

The point of the stride is to facilitate hip/shoulder separation. The problem with overstriding is that, while in some cases it can help hip/shoulder separation, in others it can hurt it.

[Billybob622]

Ok I understand what you're saying. But now a new question has come to mind. Is is correct to keep your weight back and drift at the same time. (If you notice, mariano's head stays directly above his back leg, as he continues to drive off the mound, until he can no longer keep it there.)

[Chris O'Leary]

Is is correct to keep your weight back and drift at the same time. (If you notice, mariano's head stays directly above his back leg, as he continues to drive off the mound, until he can no longer keep it there.)

No.

They are mutually exclusive.

Great pitchers drift. They start drifting at the top of the leg lift.

Notice how Rivera leads with his Glove Side butt cheek. I guess you could call this keeping the weight back, but it occurs as the Center Of Mass is driving toward the plate.

[Billybob622]

Ok so now I know drifting is ok, I have one other question. If you notice during Mariano's or Oswalt's motion, to balance their weight or lead with their front hip, they tend to let their throwing arm side shoulder lean down or back. My coach also tells me that, that is wrong as well. Is he right?

[Go Cardinals]

Ok so now I know drifting is ok, I have one other question. If you notice during Mariano's or Oswalt's motion, to balance their weight or lead with their front hip, they tend to let their throwing arm side shoulder lean down or back. My coach also tells me that, that is wrong as well. Is he right?

If I understand what your saying correctly, he is very wrong. Is he telling you to break your elbows above your shoulders also? Because somehow he sounds like that kind of guy......

[Chris O'Leary]

Ok so now I know drifting is ok, I have one other question. If you notice during Mariano's or Oswalt's motion, to balance their weight or lead with their front hip, they tend to let their throwing arm side shoulder lean down or back. My coach also tells me that, that is wrong as well. Is he right?

No.

Tons of people do this.

Here's Nolan Ryan doing that (as well as drive and drop).

http://www.pitchingclips.com/clips/nolan_ryan3.gif

Others that I can think of include...

- Andy Pettitte
- Mike Mussina
- Juan Marichal
- Jim Palmer

http://www.pitchingclips.com/clips/juan_marichal.gif

http://www.pitchingclips.com/clips/jim_palmer.gif

There are many things that cause injuries. This isn't one of them.

[Billybob622]

If I understand what your saying correctly, he is very wrong. Is he telling you to break your elbows above your shoulders also? Because somehow he sounds like that kind of guy......

YES! How'd you know? He tells me to get my elbow above my shoulders to get a higher release point. I know for a fact that, that is wrong, and keep my elbow level with my shoulders. So, I tilt my shoulders instead.

[3and0]

YES! How'd you know? He tells me to get my elbow above my shoulders to get a higher release point. I know for a fact that, that is wrong, and keep my elbow level with my shoulders. So, I tilt my shoulders instead.

yes to throw high 3/4 or over the top you need to tilt my your shoulders so your elbow is still inline with them

[Go Cardinals]

YES! How'd you know? He tells me to get my elbow above my shoulders to get a higher release point. I know for a fact that, that is wrong, and keep my elbow level with my shoulders. So, I tilt my shoulders instead.

I knew because the advice he gave you was very similar to a guy who would be teaching you to break your elbows above your shoulder. You can still get a high release point without doing that. Don't do it. This topic is in heavy debate. This board is about 85-90% against it, but their are people on other boards (etc.) that think that it is good. Listen, I've learned how to throw every differen't way. I've been told bad things like the "showing the ball to cf" or my hands breaking over my shoulder, but they are bad. Trust me! Listen to guys like Chris O'leary. Most of his stuff is right on the mark. He has an amazing knowledge of some things that people don't have much knowledge about (Ie the average coach). Listen to him on his pitching mechanics.

Here's the linke to his site if you can't find it (I think he posted before and he has it on his signature).

http://www.chrisoleary.com/

Good luck with your coach.

[Billybob622]

So, basically, when i drifted foward (which i usually did), changing the motion to not drifting at all was wrong? It should be driving off the mound the minute my leg kick reaches it's highest point. Correct? Also, I've been seeing a lot of people say that you should break your hands as late as possible, because when you create you circle arm action, the faster you go through it, the harder you throw, as long as you don't leave your arm behind. Is this true?

[kylebee]

Drifting through the so-called balance point and creating momentum into footplant will help your velocity and will help take strain off the arm.

Speeding up your body (to tolerance) is almost always going to give you positive benefits.

[tom.guerry]

2 points of comparison for the weight "shift" sequence are the 1 and 2 plane type golf swings.

The traditional 2 plane golf swing has a more pornounced back then forward weight shift, similar to the negative and positve move of the MLB swing (Slaught absolute).

The "modern" (Hogan) 1 plane golf swing starts more 50 -50 and then weight moves progressively to the front side which is the way the shift is now being popularly taught as "stack and tilt" in golf.

Both of these patterns work for golf, and the more purely you move through either pattern as opposed to mixing them (hybrid) the more consistent the swing.

Only the MLB type swing (resembling more the golf 2 plane weight shift) works with big league/woodbat.

The PCR swing (more like 1 plane) must be shortened to optimize it to try to meet the limited reaction time which forces too much spinning (don't have time for huge xfactor coil/uncoil to drive swing/adjust accurately on fly). This causes what Lau traditionally called the one dimensional pull hitting of the Williams rotational swing (misunderstaood Williams). It cannot be fixed by hooking the handpath, rather as Lau recommends by weight shift and lead arm (not shoulder) dominance.

[bamajeff]

Only Tom could reply to a thread about pitching mechanics and respond ONLY talking about 1 & 2 plane golf swings and downing PCR. And all the while not even mention a word about the question that was asked. Great job Tom!

2 points of comparison for the weight "shift" sequence are the 1 and 2 plane type golf swings.

The traditional 2 plane golf swing has a more pornounced back then forward weight shift, similar to the negative and positve move of the MLB swing (Slaught absolute).

The "modern" (Hogan) 1 plane golf swing starts more 50 -50 and then weight moves progressively to the front side which is the way the shift is now being popularly taught as "stack and tilt" in golf.

Both of these patterns work for golf, and the more purely you move through either pattern as opposed to mixing them (hybrid) the more consistent the swing.

Only the MLB type swing (resembling more the golf 2 plane weight shift) works with big league/woodbat.

The PCR swing (more like 1 plane) must be shortened to optimize it to try to meet the limited reaction time which forces too much spinning (don't have time for huge xfactor coil/uncoil to drive swing/adjust accurately on fly). This causes what Lau traditionally called the one dimensional pull hitting of the Williams rotational swing (misunderstaood Williams). It cannot be fixed by hooking the handpath, rather as Lau recommends by weight shift and lead arm (not shoulder) dominance.

[tom.guerry]

bama -

It really helps to get perspective to look at one skill from the perspective of another.

traditonally when golfers talked about comparison to baseball, they thought of the similarities as being much more between throwing and golf, see Sam Snead (who was a pitcher) and Jones for instance.

Knowing how throwing and swinging in golf and hitting compare and contrast is a good thing.

A good argument for not specializing too early, playing many sports year round.

sometimes answers should suggest rephrasing or changing the question, otherwise people might think you continue to beat your wife.

[Chris O'Leary]

So, basically, when i drifted foward (which i usually did), changing the motion to not drifting at all was wrong? It should be driving off the mound the minute my leg kick reaches it's highest point. Correct?

Yes.


Also, I've been seeing a lot of people say that you should break your hands as late as possible, because when you create you circle arm action, the faster you go through it, the harder you throw, as long as you don't leave your arm behind. Is this true?

I think breaking the hands late sets you up for arm problems.

I like what Maddux does. It's similar to Clemens, Wells, and others. It's not circle-up or long arm. It's more like plunge then lead with the hand on the way back up (as you take the hand back toward 2B).

746. http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Images/ImageSequences/GregMaddux_1997_CF_001/Video_Pitching_GregMaddux_1997NLDSG1_CF_001_0746.j pg

747. http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Images/ImageSequences/GregMaddux_1997_CF_001/Video_Pitching_GregMaddux_1997NLDSG1_CF_001_0747.j pg

748. http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Images/ImageSequences/GregMaddux_1997_CF_001/Video_Pitching_GregMaddux_1997NLDSG1_CF_001_0748.j pg

749. http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Images/ImageSequences/GregMaddux_1997_CF_001/Video_Pitching_GregMaddux_1997NLDSG1_CF_001_0749.j pg

750. http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Images/ImageSequences/GregMaddux_1997_CF_001/Video_Pitching_GregMaddux_1997NLDSG1_CF_001_0750.j pg

751. http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Images/ImageSequences/GregMaddux_1997_CF_001/Video_Pitching_GregMaddux_1997NLDSG1_CF_001_0751.j pg

752. http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Images/ImageSequences/GregMaddux_1997_CF_001/Video_Pitching_GregMaddux_1997NLDSG1_CF_001_0752.j pg

753. http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Images/ImageSequences/GregMaddux_1997_CF_001/Video_Pitching_GregMaddux_1997NLDSG1_CF_001_0753.j pg

754. http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Images/ImageSequences/GregMaddux_1997_CF_001/Video_Pitching_GregMaddux_1997NLDSG1_CF_001_0754.j pg

755. http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Images/ImageSequences/GregMaddux_1997_CF_001/Video_Pitching_GregMaddux_1997NLDSG1_CF_001_0755.j pg

[Kevin G]

Only Tom could reply to a thread about pitching mechanics and respond ONLY talking about 1 & 2 plane golf swings and downing PCR. And all the while not even mention a word about the question that was asked. Great job Tom!

Woops..... He clicked and dragged the wrong file from his folder of nonsense.

[Billybob622]

Yes.




I think breaking the hands late sets you up for arm problems.

I like what Maddux does. It's similar to Clemens, Wells, and others. It's not circle-up or long arm. It's more like plunge then lead with the hand on the way back up (as you take the hand back toward 2B).

746. http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Images/ImageSequences/GregMaddux_1997_CF_001/Video_Pitching_GregMaddux_1997NLDSG1_CF_001_0746.j pg

747. http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Images/ImageSequences/GregMaddux_1997_CF_001/Video_Pitching_GregMaddux_1997NLDSG1_CF_001_0747.j pg

748. http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Images/ImageSequences/GregMaddux_1997_CF_001/Video_Pitching_GregMaddux_1997NLDSG1_CF_001_0748.j pg

749. http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Images/ImageSequences/GregMaddux_1997_CF_001/Video_Pitching_GregMaddux_1997NLDSG1_CF_001_0749.j pg

750. http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Images/ImageSequences/GregMaddux_1997_CF_001/Video_Pitching_GregMaddux_1997NLDSG1_CF_001_0750.j pg

751. http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Images/ImageSequences/GregMaddux_1997_CF_001/Video_Pitching_GregMaddux_1997NLDSG1_CF_001_0751.j pg

752. http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Images/ImageSequences/GregMaddux_1997_CF_001/Video_Pitching_GregMaddux_1997NLDSG1_CF_001_0752.j pg

753. http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Images/ImageSequences/GregMaddux_1997_CF_001/Video_Pitching_GregMaddux_1997NLDSG1_CF_001_0753.j pg

754. http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Images/ImageSequences/GregMaddux_1997_CF_001/Video_Pitching_GregMaddux_1997NLDSG1_CF_001_0754.j pg

755. http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Images/ImageSequences/GregMaddux_1997_CF_001/Video_Pitching_GregMaddux_1997NLDSG1_CF_001_0755.j pg

So breaking the hands late is bad? Just curious though, will it really cause injury, because pitchers such as Roy Oswalt, Daisuke Matsusaka, and Tim Lincecum do this and they haven't had any bad injuries yet.

[tom.guerry]

tweena-

it's in the same folder as post #4, this one comparing the arm slot in hitting and throwing.

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=66749

you might benefit from a little broader perspective across skills yourself especially if you are a golfer.

[Chris O'Leary]

So breaking the hands late is bad? Just curious though, will it really cause injury, because pitchers such as Roy Oswalt, Daisuke Matsusaka, and Tim Lincecum do this and they haven't had any bad injuries yet.

I think so.

I don't see the guys above breaking their hands late.

Mariano Rivera doesn't break his hands late in this clip...

http://www.pitchingclips.com/clips/mariano_rivera1.gif

[Billybob622]

i know this is off topic, but do you have a clip of Roy Oswalt? (preferrably from the side), because on your site, you state that he has the best mechanics after Maddux, but I do believe he breaks his hands late. Or am I wrong?

[Chris O'Leary]

i know this is off topic, but do you have a clip of Roy Oswalt? (preferrably from the side), because on your site, you state that he has the best mechanics after Maddux, but I do believe he breaks his hands late. Or am I wrong?

All I have is a CF view. The one below is a comparison of Oswalt and Nolan Ryan (who I also like).

http://www.pitchingclips.com/clips/roy_oswalt_and_nolan_ryan.gif

[Billybob622]

thx for the clip. That answers my question. It appears that I am breaking my hands too early.

[Mark H]

Regarding some of the questions in this thread, those of you on Steve's site might profit from the thread Understanding Rotation in 3D on the public side in the General Hitting Discussion section. Some of this stuff gets discussed in the context of both hitting and pitching.