Article about Little League Pitching

[Jake Patterson]

Found the following in the Hartford Current this Sunday.

[handyman11]

Good article .... had a friend who's team lost in a Little League State NY final 4 a few weeks back , and part of the reason is that his pitchers threw basically fastballs/changeups .....he just returned from Williamsport a few days back , to watch some games ....one LL World Series coach who he talked to agreed about the issue of curve calls and Little League , but admitted it's hard to compete , and get there , without your pitchers throwing breaking pitches ...

In the late 60's , the LL program I had played in won the 11-12 state title , with 2 front line pitchers and a 3rd spot starter . The 2 starter's arms were never the same after that .... the spot starter , who was'nt as good , and saw limited time , pitched 4 years in college and 1/2 season pro ball ....

[Swing Coach]

When I first began coaching high school about 15 years ago, a senior D1 college pitcher came and worked with some of our kids and told me specifically that curveballs thrown the correct way will not do anymore damage to a kid's arm than a fastball. He was teaching the kids to come straight down with the curve 12:00 to 6:00. (no twisting at the elbow!) I'm not saying every kids learns to throw a curve this way, but my question is; does a properly thrown curveball cause any more arm/elbow strain than a properly thrown fastball?

[TG Coach]

..........

[TG Coach]

I guess the Hartford paper had to dig into the archives to fill up the sports page. That article is not new. I've read it a few times before. Rick Wolff hasn't had his radio show for several years.

The curve is not the problem. Overuse is the problem. Throwing a curve improperly is the problem. Youth coaches who can't recognize when pitching mechanics fail and leave the pitcher on the mound are the problem. A proberly thrown curve will not hurt an arm any more than rearing back and throwing a fastball.

I have a lot of respect for Rick Wolff and his efforts in youth sports. I even had the opportunity to meet him once. But I disagree with him on this one. Even ASMI has not been able to find a connection between the curve and arm injuries.

Think about it. Which kid is more likely to hurt his arm at age twelve?

a) the pitcher who throws eighty pitches a week and twenty are curves

b) the pitcher who pitches for two teams and throws one hundred and sixty fastballs a week

As far as banning curves, I'd rather have youth level umpires, especially LL volunteers focus on the location of the pitch rather than the rotation of the pitch. They have enough trouble with location.

When my son was twelve an umpire from our LL, tenured enough to have received a state assignment (for what that's worth) told me my son was going to destroy his arm throwing all the breaking stuff he throws. He said almost every pitch for six innings was a curve or a slider.

My son threw about forty two seam fastballs that screw based on the grip, twenty knuckle changes which break nastier than a curve based on the grip and about twenty curves. This LL expert umpire thought he threw eighty curves and sliders.

[Drill]

I guess the Hartford paper had to dig into the archives to fill up the sports page. That article is not new. I've read it a few times before. Rick Wolff hasn't had his radio show for several years.

The curve is not the problem. Overuse is the problem. Throwing a curve improperly is the problem. Youth coaches who can't recognize when pitching mechanics fail and leave the pitcher on the mound are the problem. A proberly thrown curve will not hurt an arm any more than rearing back and throwing a fastball.

I have a lot of respect for Rick Wolff and his efforts in youth sports. I even had the opportunity to meet him once. But I disagree with him on this one. Even ASMI has not been able to find a connection between the curve and arm injuries.

Think about it. Which kid is more likely to hurt his arm at age twelve?

a) the pitcher who throws eighty pitches a week and twenty are curves

b) the pitcher who pitches for two teams and throws one hundred and sixty fastballs a week

As far as banning curves, I'd rather have youth level umpires, especially LL volunteers focus on the location of the pitch rather than the rotation of the pitch. They have enough trouble with location.

When my son was twelve an umpire from our LL, tenured enough to have received a state assignment (for what that's worth) told me my son was going to destroy his arm throwing all the breaking stuff he throws. He said almost every pitch for six innings was a curve or a slider.

My son threw about forty two seam fastballs that screw based on the grip, twenty knuckle changes which break nastier than a curve based on the grip and about twenty curves. This LL expert umpire thought he threw eighty curves and sliders.

must of had a real good catcher to catch that knuckle change. I always laugh with the qoute that Yogi Berra said when was asked how do you catch a knuckle ball? he said "when it stops rolling"


drill

[Jake Patterson]

The curve is not the problem. Overuse is the problem. Throwing a curve improperly is the problem.
If we agree that a supinated release is more damaging to a young arm than a pronated release (I have I have never seen evidence to the contrary) Then curve balls become a problem.

I think we have to be careful using breaking balls and curve ball interchangeably.

[Three A's baseball]

If you let your kid do it, it must be ok.

If you don't let your kid do it, it must be wrong.

Curve ball no Curve ball

Metal Bat no Metal Bat

Travel Ball no Travel Ball

[bbjunkie]

There is little doubt that overuse is the overwhelming culprit in LL pitcher injuries. The pitch count limits discussed in the article became mandatory this year, based on studies by ASMI. The LL limits are a little higher than ASMI recommended, but still put a stop to the kind of overuse that was common in LL before.

There is no research showing that properly thrown curves are any more dangerous than fastballs. ASMI is currently running a five year study on curveballs. I know of no reason to jump to the conclusion that moderate use of curveballs is hazardous to a kid's arm. My son threw a good curve when he was in LL. He never threw more than 5 in a game, and saved them for key batters in key situations. Last year I remember an announcer in the LLWS talking about kids throwing upwards of 50 curves in a game. In my opinion that's playing with fire, but until research is done you can't say so conclusively.

[Go Cardinals]

The little league has done some great things, but they can be so stubborn sometimes. It's a shame its something with risking to screw up their arms.

[Kevkey]

I absolutly agree with the biggest problem being overuse. Helped coach a u10 travel team where, based on research and a strong opinion of a head coach that had pitched D1, we had set a 50 pitch limit for our kids(fastball change ups only). What we found was only one of our pitchers could OCCASSIONALLY go 50 pitches without his mechanics starting to break down. Most of our pitchers could go 30 to 45 pitches before mechanics started to falter and the ball/strike ratio started to change dramatically. We also found in tournaments that after 35+ pitches one day every kid needed one day of rest and then we could only get about 20 - 30 effective pitches before the mechanics started to go.
We also started charting/counting pitches from the other pitcher and no matter how dominate they might be for pitches 1 to 40+, we knew that we would start getting to them sometime around the 50 pitch mark. Invariably velocity and accuracy would start to go.
We expect our pitchers to get stronger as the years progress but I am convinced that recovery time is a critical component.
BTW we had ZERO arm problems with our pitchers this year.

[Jake Patterson]

If you let your kid do it, it must be ok.
If you don't let your kid do it, it must be wrong.
Curve ball no Curve ball
Metal Bat no Metal Bat
Travel Ball no Travel Ball

Not certain what your point is. Keeping things in perspective and moderating the child's baseball activity is the most effective weapon against injury.

[Baseball gLove]

In the photo with the caption
Sam Falkson lets go what appears to be a breaking ball is actually a pronated pitch, probably a fast ball. Goes to show how stupid the media is especially when they want to focus on the negative. I don't think there are more injuries. I believe there are more reported injuries.

[Chris O'Leary]

There is little doubt that overuse is the overwhelming culprit in LL pitcher injuries. The pitch count limits discussed in the article became mandatory this year, based on studies by ASMI. The LL limits are a little higher than ASMI recommended, but still put a stop to the kind of overuse that was common in LL before.

There is no research showing that properly thrown curves are any more dangerous than fastballs. ASMI is currently running a five year study on curveballs. I know of no reason to jump to the conclusion that moderate use of curveballs is hazardous to a kid's arm. My son threw a good curve when he was in LL. He never threw more than 5 in a game, and saved them for key batters in key situations. Last year I remember an announcer in the LLWS talking about kids throwing upwards of 50 curves in a game. In my opinion that's playing with fire, but until research is done you can't say so conclusively.

I agree that overuse is the biggest problem out there. The LLWS is just driving me crazy because it's an example of why and how problems crop up.

Due to tournaments.

In terms of curveballs, my current thinking is that they are more of an overuse problem. You have to throw a lot of curveballs to throw a good one. To throw just 1 in a game, you have to throw hundreds in practice. The impact of all that practice adds up over time.

[bbjunkie]

In terms of curveballs, my current thinking is that they are more of an overuse problem. You have to throw a lot of curveballs to throw a good one. To throw just 1 in a game, you have to throw hundreds in practice. The impact of all that practice adds up over time.

I agree, but it sounds like you're saying that practicing curves is more stressful than fast balls or CU's. After all, you have to practice throwing hundreds of any kind of pitch before you can control it reasonably well.

My son's on the big field now, and when we practice, I typically have him throw 60 pitches. Probably 25 FB's, 15 CU's, 10 curves and 10 knuckles (he's been having fun trying to control the latter lately, but its tough catching them without pads).

BTW, an observation. This year my son played travel for the first (and only if I have my way) time. I was very sensitive to not letting him pitch too much. His coaches were good about not overpitching the kids during tournaments, but they never figured out who was pitching until just before a game. From week to week I didn't know how muchor when my son would be pitching in a weekend tournament. Therefore, I didn't take him out to practice if I thought there was any likelihood he would be pitching within three days. That meant, to my mind anyway, he didn't get enough pitching in to really improve over the course of the season (He was probably their No. 4 pitcher, and might pitch up to a full game, but frequently less, over a weekend tournament.) Then there would be week night games locally that were also unpredictable.

When I coached his LL team, we pretty much knew who would be pitching and how much a week in advance of every game. Even during tournament time, we had the rotation pretty well charted out. Therefore, we could work with the kids accordingly during the week.

I'd be curious to learn how others who have coached travel ball schedule their pitchers.

[scorekeeper]

I agree, but it sounds like you're saying that practicing curves is more stressful than fast balls or CU's. After all, you have to practice throwing hundreds of any kind of pitch before you can control it reasonably well.

Depends on your definition of stress. Does stress means the physical “cost” only, or does it also include the mental costs too.

Let’s assume the easiest pitch to throw with command is a regular old FB. How many practice pitches would you estimate that a P has to throw to reach the level of throwing the pitch well? Would it take the same number of practice pitches to throw every other type of pitch equally well?

[Chris O'Leary]

I agree, but it sounds like you're saying that practicing curves is more stressful than fast balls or CU's. After all, you have to practice throwing hundreds of any kind of pitch before you can control it reasonably well.

I think it's easier to throw a good fastball than it is to throw a good curveball. IOW, you can learn to throw a good FB with fewer pitches than would be required to learn to throw a good curveball.

By way of example, at our last game I taught a couple of guys how to pronate the release of their 2-seamers to get both tail and sink. One guy achieved good results with just 10 practice throws.

I don't think any kid's going to throw a good curveball with just 10 practice throws.



When I coached his LL team, we pretty much knew who would be pitching and how much a week in advance of every game. Even during tournament time, we had the rotation pretty well charted out. Therefore, we could work with the kids accordingly during the week.

I think this is an important difference.

[bbjunkie]

Depends on your definition of stress. Does stress means the physical “cost” only, or does it also include the mental costs too.

Let’s assume the easiest pitch to throw with command is a regular old FB. How many practice pitches would you estimate that a P has to throw to reach the level of throwing the pitch well? Would it take the same number of practice pitches to throw every other type of pitch equally well?

That's a little hard to answer since he started throwing fb's at about age 7 and threw them almost exclusively til around age 10 when he started throwing CU's. He began curves around his next to last LL year. Actually, he didn't seem to have much problem learning to control it. In fact, his control of curves is still better than CU's. That's probably because he likes throwing curves more.

The one lesson I've learned about my son's pitching is that he needs to be brought along slowly every year. Any sudden increase in pitches and he tends to get elbow pain. OTOH, if its done properly, he doesn't seem to have any pain at all. That was the problem this year with never knowing when he was going to pitch again.

[bbjunkie]

Oh yeh, I didn't answer your other question about mental stress. He doesn't seem to experience much. That's one thing the coaches like about him. He doesn't get rattled much, even when he's getting rocked.

[scorekeeper]

That's a little hard to answer since he started throwing fb's at about age 7 and threw them almost exclusively til around age 10 when he started throwing CU's. He began curves around his next to last LL year. Actually, he didn't seem to have much problem learning to control it. In fact, his control of curves is still better than CU's. That's probably because he likes throwing curves more.

I’m sure we debate the intricacies of this subject until we’re both old and gray, but the fact is, a pitch that goes in the straightest line will always be easier to control. Plus your idea of “control” and mine will very likely be different, as will what we consider a “good” curve.

Also, you make a great point, and one not thought of by many people, that a P’s confidence in a given pitch has a heck of a lot to do with the result.


The one lesson I've learned about my son's pitching is that he needs to be brought along slowly every year. Any sudden increase in pitches and he tends to get elbow pain. OTOH, if its done properly, he doesn't seem to have any pain at all. That was the problem this year with never knowing when he was going to pitch again.

You make another great point about schedules. Unfortunately, at most levels below the pros, coaches try to put their best option to win on the mound as often as possible. That’s the nature of the beast.

Here’s a question for you that is totally dependent on you, no one else. What will you do, if and when your boy plays for a really good travel team or a HS team, and he’s not being used in the way you feel is in the best interest of his health?

I don’t mean to put you on the spot, but sooner or later its gonna happen.


Oh yeh, I didn't answer your other question about mental stress. He doesn't seem to experience much. That's one thing the coaches like about him. He doesn't get rattled much, even when he's getting rocked.

Not getting rattled, or keeping one’s cool isn’t really what I was talking about. I was thinking more along the lines of the amount of stress throwing a 3-1 Hook with the bases loaded gives a P, as opposed to the amount of stress throwing a FB in the same situation would be.

[TG Coach]

I'd be curious to learn how others who have coached travel ball schedule their pitchers.

We gave them a workout schedule for the week based on their weekend work. For starters it was the same. It was relievers it might change for. Some of these kids might only pitch three innings or not at all. Eleven of our fourteen players pitched.

[bbjunkie]

Here’s a question for you that is totally dependent on you, no one else. What will you do, if and when your boy plays for a really good travel team or a HS team, and he’s not being used in the way you feel is in the best interest of his health?

I've thought about this some. I know there are a lot of coaches who would probably consider me a pitap for saying this, but anyone who my boy has played for knows better. I don't interfere, but if it has reached a point where I think he is at serious risk of injury, I'll pull him in an instant. It hasn't happened yet, but it may at some point. As a parent, I am primarily responsible for his health and well-being until he's on his own.

[Kevkey]

BB Junkie asked;
"I'd be curious to learn how others who have coached travel ball schedule their pitchers."

We worked backwards. What I mean is we tried to have enough innings left from our top 4 pitchers to cover the 2 Sunday games that must be played to win the tournament. In most Tournaments pool play was 3 or 4 games and then the championship round would be 2 or 3 games (2 games if 4 teams emerge from pool play or 2/3 games when 6 teams emerge from pool play with 1 and 2 seeds receiving bye's). We would try and throw our top 4 pitchers on Thursday/Friday while keeping their pitch count below 30 pitches and less then 3 innings. Starters 5 through 7 pitched on Saturday and we would let them pitch to our maximum 50 pitchs (as long as they were effective) and as many innings as that would take them because we would not pitch them on Sunday. The point is, although we could not tell them which GAME they might pitch everyone generally knew what DAY they would pitch.

[scorekeeper]

I've thought about this some. I know there are a lot of coaches who would probably consider me a pitap for saying this, but anyone who my boy has played for knows better. I don't interfere, but if it has reached a point where I think he is at serious risk of injury, I'll pull him in an instant. It hasn't happened yet, but it may at some point. As a parent, I am primarily responsible for his health and well-being until he's on his own.

Who really cares what coaches think about this subject? You hit the nail directly on the head. The buck stops at you! Given the choice of who’s more at fault for allowing a child to be put at risk, is it some coach who “thinks” he’s got the responsibility, or a parent who does?

You can delegate authority, but you cannot delegate responsibility.

My only reservation about what you said is, you put the caveat of the risk of serious injury being you trigger. I can understand that, but that opens it up to the different interpretations of what people thing is a serious risk.

FI, would it be the same if it were a regular season game and the coach wanted to let him keep throwing at 110 pitches in the 6th inning, or if it were the title game? Its just that it always seems to get back to everyone has different standards, and those standards seem to change with the situation.

Very often the reason parents are considered to be PITA’s, is that its not readily understood that parents and coaches have two different things to be concerned with.

[Sparksdale]

What do you do about a child who wants to throw everyday? I'm not talking about in a game but my boy wants to go in the backyard every day and throw....he loves it.

Do you tell your kid not to throw?

Sparks

[scorekeeper]

What do you do about a child who wants to throw everyday? I'm not talking about in a game but my boy wants to go in the backyard every day and throw....he loves it.

Do you tell your kid not to throw?

Since its your responsibility, you have to be the one who defines what all these things mean.

What does “throw” mean? Is it just playing catch for 50-60 throws, or is it long toss for 50-60? Is he throwing the ball against the house just to play ball, or is he playing burn out with his brother who’s 5 years older? There is no right or wrong answer.

[TG Coach]

What do you do about a child who wants to throw everyday? I'm not talking about in a game but my boy wants to go in the backyard every day and throw....he loves it.

Do you tell your kid not to throw?

Sparks

Don't confuse throwing with pitching. Too many kids don't throw enough. Throwing builds arm strength. Let him throw every day unless there's something wrong with his arm.