Hall of Fame Catcher Rankings

[leecemark]

--This thread is designed for you to rank Hall of fame catchers as;
A) Small Hall Locks: Guys who would be sure things for a 100 member HoF.
B) Real Hall Locks: Guys who are/should be locks for a HoF of Cooperstown's actual size.
C) Solid HoFers: Guys who you think clearly meet the standards of Cooperstown (as it exists today).
D) Borderliners: Guys who deserve HoF consideration, even if you might ultimatley not support them.
E) Hof mistakes: Guys who got inducted but clearly shouldn't have.
--For all but the mistakes feel free to include players not actually in the Hall of Fame (including active players if they have already earned the honor). If this thread gets a decent response I'll follow up with one for each position.

[leecemark]

A (Small Hall Locks)
Bench
Berra
Campanella
Cochrane
Ewing
Fisk
Gibson
Piazza+
B (Real Hall Locks)
Carter
Dickey
Hartnett
Rodriguez+
Santop
C (Solid Hall of Famers)
Bennett*
Bresnahan
Freehan*
Simmons*
Torre*
D (Borderliners)
Howard*
Lombardi
Mackey
Munson*
Parrish*
Schalk
Schang*
F (Cooperstown Mistakes)
Ferrell
*= not in HoF
+= active
--If Japanese players were eligible Nomura would be a solid HoFer as well.

[Brad Harris]

Dude, where's Mickey Cochrane?

[leecemark]

--Just an oversight. He is in the first group.

[Cougar]

Ted Simmons? Probably group C.

Nice ranking...I might be a little kinder to Ferrell (call him a D), but no real quibbles.

[leecemark]

--Boy, I must have been tired when I put this up. Yes, Simmons should have been (and has been been) added to group C. Interestingly, 4 of the 5 players in Group C (Solid HoF choices) are NOT in Cooperstown. Meanwhile, 4 players from groups D and F ARE in Cooperstown. I think the voters have done a poor job on identifying all but the obvious catcher choices. Of course, this is largely due to the higher standards that have unfortunately been imposed on more recent players.

[MyDogSparty]

Other than moving Irod in the "Small Hall" I really like your list. I especially like Freehan, Simmons and Torre in "Solid Hall" category. Nice job.

[PVNICK]

I like the inclusion of Charlie Bennett. Poor guy.

[538280]

Group A (Small Hall Locks): Bench, Gibson, Piazza, Berra, Carter, Fisk, Cochrane, Ewing
Group B (Real Hall Locks): Campanella, Santop, I.Rodriguez
Group C (Solid HOFer): Simmons, Torre, Hartnett, Dickey, Freehan, Bresnahan
Group D (Borderline): E. Howard, Munson, Tenace, Schang, Mackey, Lombardi, Parrish, Bennett
Group F: Ferrell, Schalk

I'll do it for First Base, too:

A: Gehrig, Foxx, McCovey, Thomas, Bagwell, Anson
B: D.Allen, Murray, Mize, Killebrew, Connor, Brouthers, Greenberg
C: McGriff, K.Hernandez, Perez, Sisler, Terry
D: McGwire, Clark, Cepeda, Cash, Powell, Palmeiro, Thome, Beckley
F: Kelly, Bottomley, Chance

Chance is in category F as a player only, but as a manager as well as a player I think he actually isn't that bad of a selection. I wasn't sure about Group C for 1B men, there seemed to be a definite divide after I made up group B between those already put in and those left. I think Perez is a good HOF choice, though I know many disagree, and I think Murray's credentials are very good up against already inducted and usually considered solid players like Cepeda and Murray. Keith Hernandez maybe should be in group D, but his combination of being a very good hitter, with an excellent OBP, and being probably the best fielder ever from the position. Sisler and Terry I think on credentials alone would be more in group D. But, I realize that they were sometimes considered the best yet at their position when they were playing, and have many impressive contemporary evaluations, so I don't think it would be right to keep them out of the HOF. Anson also IMO on credentials alone would be more in group B but I put him in A for similar reasons.

[Fuzzy Bear]

I consider Carter to be a Small Hall HOFer.

I also don't consider Rick Ferrell to have been a mistake. A borderline pick, to be sure, but not a mistake. Roger Bresnahan and Ernie Lombardi, IMO, rank below Ferrell.

[ElHalo]

A) Small Hall Locks: Guys who would be sure things for a 100 member HoF. Gibson
Berra
Bench
Cochrane
+ Rodriguez
+ Piazza

B) Real Hall Locks: Guys who are/should be locks for a HoF of Cooperstown's actual size.Dickey
Hartnett
Fisk
Ewing
C) Solid HoFers: Guys who you think clearly meet the standards of Cooperstown (as it exists today).Bresnahan
Campanella
Santop
+Torre
D) Borderliners: Guys who deserve HoF consideration, even if you might ultimatley not support them.Carter
Schalk
Lombardi
+Posada
E) Hof mistakes: Guys who got inducted but clearly shouldn't have.Ferrell

[538280]

I consider Carter to be a Small Hall HOFer.

I would. I figure that the Small Hall should have about 75 position players, with 25 pitchers. I think Carter is easily one of the top 75 players ever. Most people have Bench in their top 25. Carter is essentially but a little worse as a hitter. Carter was an absolutely tremendous defensive catcher. Some metrics even have him better than Bench defensively-though I don't agree with that (Bench has much better OSB numbers), I still think Carter is among the five best defensive catchers ever. Carter was tremendous at preventing PBs and WPs. This is a very good article that demonstrates his defense:

http://www.tangotiger.net/catchers.html

I also don't consider Rick Ferrell to have been a mistake. A borderline pick, to be sure, but not a mistake. Roger Bresnahan and Ernie Lombardi, IMO, rank below Ferrell.

Maybe Ferrell deserves more than I am giving him credit for, but right now I don't see much special about him. He was great with his pitchers, almost as good as anyone. He was barely above average at preventing SBs, though, 2% above average. Offensively he was basically league average, solid for a catcher but still not great. I just don't see anything special about him, a very good defensive catcher and good offensively too. I think if he's in Wally Schang should be an easy choice.

[KCGHOST]

Group A: Bench, Gibson, Piazza, Berra, Fisk, Cochrane, Ewing
Group B: Campanella, I.Rodriguez
Group C: Carter, Hartnett, Dickey,
Group D: Bresnahan, Schang, Mackey, Freehan, Lombardi, Parrish, Bennett, Simmons, Torre, Posada

Group F: Ferrell, Schalk

[PVNICK]

A: Bench, Berra, Campanella, Cochrane, Ewing, Gibson, Hartnett
B: Carter, Dickey, Fisk, Piazza+
C: Bennett, Freehan, Rodriguez, Simmons, Torre
D: Bresnahan, Howard, Lombardi, Mackey, Munson, Parrish, Posada, Schalk, Schang
F: Ferrell

[AstrosFan]

A: Gibson, Bench, Berra, Carter, Fisk, Piazza
B: Ewing, Cochrane, Campanella, Dickey, Rodriguez, Santop
C: Simmons, Hartnett, Torre, Freehan, Mackey
D: Munson, Bresnahan, Howard, Schang, Porter, Lombardi, Parrish
F: Ferrell, Schalk

I'm probably missing some names, but I don't want to have to consider all the top 40 catchers, or however many I would need to go through. The demotion of Hartnett to the C group may come as a surprise to some, but while he was terrific while on the field, he missed a lot of playing time and played in a weak league. I'd probably take Simmons and Torre over Hartnett, unless I really needed strong catcher defense.