pronation/supination

[fgold68]

I am learning more and more about pitching and while I am not a dumb guy (although my wife might give a dif opinion ;) I am just not able to wrap my brain around the idea of pronation and supination (spelling) I know it isn't that hard to understand but it is a mental block right now.


as a right handed pitcher, when you throw a curve ball as an example, the way you end up rotating your hand is that pronation or supination?

Just so I understand which way is which


AND I have heard dif people say different things about early pronation and late pronation, I do understand that just means if you pronate early in your delivery or just before release but do you actually pronate for every kind of pitch, just to different degrees?

I mean do you actually want to pronate on a fastball?


I know these questions might seem dumb but I really don't know and I am interested in finding out

thanks
frank

[CanadianKid]

I get them mixed up most times but I'm pretty sure a curveball is supination and screwball is pronation. I don't think you want to pronate on a fastball. The movement should be because of finger pressure.

[EdmondsFan#1]

I am learning more and more about pitching and while I am not a dumb guy (although my wife might give a dif opinion ;) I am just not able to wrap my brain around the idea of pronation and supination (spelling) I know it isn't that hard to understand but it is a mental block right now.


as a right handed pitcher, when you throw a curve ball as an example, the way you end up rotating your hand is that pronation or supination?

Just so I understand which way is which


AND I have heard dif people say different things about early pronation and late pronation, I do understand that just means if you pronate early in your delivery or just before release but do you actually pronate for every kind of pitch, just to different degrees?

I mean do you actually want to pronate on a fastball?


I know these questions might seem dumb but I really don't know and I am interested in finding out

thanks
frank


When you throw a curveball your hand should be supinated.

And pronation occurs naturally after release when a pitcher throws a fastball, its part of deacceleration. And, no, you should not pronate on every pitch. When you throw a curveball your hand should be supinated, when you throw a slider your hand should supinate at release. Some guys like to pronate on their changeups to get better movement on it. Also, a screwball should be pronated.

[jamesh23]

most people will pronate their arm when throwing a fastball I do, without knowing and so do many other pitchers on my team. I've also seen pros do it too.

[Jake Patterson]

Put your right hand straight out, with the palm facing the floor . Pronation - Rotate the thumb down counter clock-wise.
Supination - Rotate the thumb up clock wise

[XV84]

When you throw a curveball your hand should be supinated.

And pronation occurs naturally after release when a pitcher throws a fastball, its part of deacceleration. And, no, you should not pronate on every pitch. When you throw a curveball your hand should be supinated, when you throw a slider your hand should supinate at release. Some guys like to pronate on their changeups to get better movement on it. Also, a screwball should be pronated.

That's not the proper way to throw a slider. There is nothing wrong with pronating after releasing every pitch, no matter what type of pitch. You can throw a curveball and pronate as well.

[kylebee]

That's not the proper way to throw a slider. There is nothing wrong with pronating after releasing every pitch, no matter what type of pitch.

Absolutely.

[Chris O'Leary]

as a right handed pitcher, when you throw a curve ball as an example, the way you end up rotating your hand is that pronation or supination?

Supination.

Supination is thumbs up as when hitchhiking.

Pronation is thumbs down as when pouring out a skunky beer (or a good beer if you're under age).


AND I have heard dif people say different things about early pronation and late pronation, I do understand that just means if you pronate early in your delivery or just before release but do you actually pronate for every kind of pitch, just to different degrees?

Pronation does vary from pitch to pitch. For example, a screwball is pronated more than a fastball.

Also, you have to pronate at the right moment, which is just before the release point. To do that, you don't want to pronate too early as you do when you show the ball to CF.


I mean do you actually want to pronate on a fastball?

Yes.

If possible, you want to pronate on every pitch.


I know these questions might seem dumb but I really don't know and I am interested in finding out

There's no such thing as a stupid question.

You're only stupid if you don't ask.

[Chris O'Leary]

When you throw a curveball your hand should be supinated.

And pronation occurs naturally after release when a pitcher throws a fastball, its part of deacceleration. And, no, you should not pronate on every pitch. When you throw a curveball your hand should be supinated, when you throw a slider your hand should supinate at release. Some guys like to pronate on their changeups to get better movement on it. Also, a screwball should be pronated.

It's best for the elbow to pronate every pitch, including your curve. It's a little hard, but it's possible.

[Chris O'Leary]

most people will pronate their arm when throwing a fastball I do, without knowing and so do many other pitchers on my team. I've also seen pros do it too.

Greg Maddux pronates his FB and Change.

Jake Peavy pronates like crazy on his FB, which is why it has so much tail.

[AcidLake]

I've heard of 'pronation curve' by Dr. Marshall... is this for real?

[Xavier&Trin...]

Greg Maddux pronates his FB and Change.

Jake Peavy pronates like crazy on his FB, which is why it has so much tail.
Really? Pronation is NOT the reason for run. Neither one of these guys pronates until the ball is two feet out of the hand, and are absolutley not pronating at release. How is that the reason for run? I threw a sinker, and I am well aware of what cause the ball to run.
Hint: Its not pronation.
http://www2.jsonline.com/sports/brew/image/2001/may/maddux0502.jpg
http://www.raisport.rai.it/RaiSport/pub/static/81600/20050927MLBSanDiegoPadresJakePeavy.jpg

[EdmondsFan#1]

That's not the proper way to throw a slider. There is nothing wrong with pronating after releasing every pitch, no matter what type of pitch. You can throw a curveball and pronate as well.

That's how two college coaches taught me to throw it.

[EdmondsFan#1]

I've heard of 'pronation curve' by Dr. Marshall... is this for real?

Yes, it's basically a screwball and he thinks it will help protect pitchers' elbows.

[Drill]

Just think about a roll of toilet paper

do you put it on with the paper coming off the top or coming off from behind the roll?

pronation/supination is the same thing but the opposite


drill

[Chris O'Leary]

I've heard of 'pronation curve' by Dr. Marshall... is this for real?

Yes.

You can see high speed film of one being thrown on the clip on this page...

- http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=jp-marshall051007&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

The Pronation Curve is 1 minute in and is particularly nasty.

The guy in the clip is Jeff Sparks. He spent some time in the pros but was probably released due to make-up issues.

[Chris O'Leary]

Really? Pronation is NOT the reason for run. Neither one of these guys pronates until the ball is two feet out of the hand, and are absolutley not pronating at release. How is that the reason for run? I threw a sinker, and I am well aware of what cause the ball to run.
Hint: Its not pronation.

First, finger pressure alone is not enough for significant run.

Second, you are completely wrong about when Maddux pronates, at least. Pronation is the reason why every pitch but his curveball tails and why his elbow has held up so well.

[Chris O'Leary]

That's how two college coaches taught me to throw it.

Throwing it this way will gradually destroy your elbow.

[Chris O'Leary]

Just think about a roll of toilet paper

do you put it on with the paper coming off the top or coming off from behind the roll? pronation/supination is the same thing but the opposite

Not exactly.

Pronation will protect your elbow. Supination will gradually destroy it.

The Pronator Teres muscle, which is responsible for pronation, lies on top of the UCL and thus serves to protect it. By pronating as you throw, the Pronator Teres takes up some of the load that would otherwise be focused on the UCL.

[Xavier&Trin...]

Second, you are completely wrong about when Maddux pronates, at least. Pronation is the reason why every pitch but his curveball tails and why his elbow has held up so well.


gibberish. Pronation happens after release, well after release. Please explain how pronation has anything to do with the release in the above photos. Second, you are completely wrong about when maddux pronates. I have video and photo evidence of pronation not starting until after they release the ball.

Its also not about finger preasure, but your gaining ground.

[Jake Patterson]

Pronation happens after release, well after release.
Wrong... The pronation of the hand is the result of motion that is determined at the start of the release. We don't throw a ball and then suddenly decide to pronate at the end of the throw. It's a fluid dynamic process, not puncuated steps.

[EdmondsFan#1]

Pronation occurs just after release, like so

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a389/Funk3yMonk3y/212399.jpg

[Jake Patterson]

Pronation occurs just after release
No - What you see in the pic above is the result of a pronating process.

[EdmondsFan#1]

No - What you see in the pic above is the result of a pronating process.

Oh.
too short

[Chris O'Leary]

gibberish. Pronation happens after release, well after release. Please explain how pronation has anything to do with the release in the above photos.

Some pronation happens after the release point, but that's because you're pronating before (really through) the release point. You don't release the ball and then pronate.

Also, the fact that you're neutral at the release point says nothing about what you are doing before and after that moment. Only high speed film will reveal that.

Examine the link to the video I posted above if you want to see what pronation looks like in high speed film.


Second, you are completely wrong about when maddux pronates. I have video and photo evidence of pronation not starting until after they release the ball.

I'd love to see this.


Its also not about finger preasure, but your gaining ground.

Please explain.

[Jake Patterson]

...but your gaining ground. ???? Explain .

[XV84]

That's how two college coaches taught me to throw it.

You can throw it that way and still get the right spin and movement, but it's still wrong. Throw it like a fastball. Keep the fingers behind the ball for as long as possible, but put more pressure on he middle finger and at release it should come off the side of the index finger. You can even point your index finger upon release to get the proper spin. It's just like throwing a football, if you've ever thrown one with perfect spiral. Even quarterbacks pronate after releasing a football.

Yes, it's basically a screwball and he thinks it will help protect pitchers' elbows.

You are 100% wrong. Go to Marshall's site and take a look at the videos. They show his pitchers at full speed and slow motion. The pronation curve spins end over end on a horizontal axis just like any other curveball. The key is the grip, finger pressure, and hand positioning. In addition, you can't throw it unless you are using his motion or something similar to it. These are the points you are missing. If you are throwing 3/4 or sidearm, you can't throw it. It has to be straight over the top.

[Xavier&Trin...]

Pronation occurs just after release, like so

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a389/Funk3yMonk3y/212399.jpg

correct. pronation happens naturally AFTER you release. It does not need to be taught.

[Xavier&Trin...]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xavier&Trin...
...but your gaining ground.

???? Explain .

Getting closer to understanding what dynamics are happening at release, before, and after is what I meant by "but your gaining ground."

[Jake Patterson]

correct. pronation happens naturally AFTER you release. It does not need to be taught.

I teach and can tell you proper pronation is not a natural event and needs to be taught.

[Chris O'Leary]

I teach and can tell you that proper pronation is not a natural event and needs to be taught.

The thing that got me into this whole injury prevention thing was that one of my 10U pitchers developed inner elbow pain due to accidentally supinating and throwing a slider.

[Xavier&Trin...]

I teach and can tell you proper pronation is not a natural event and needs to be taught.

Then you shouldnt teach pitchers IMO. It happens wether you tell them to pronate or not. Have one of your students that you have never taught to pronate throw their best fastball..tape it, watch it, and then tell me if they pronate or not AFTER RELEASE.. that is unless your teaching him a screwball, but if your teaching screwballs to youth pitchers that would be another reason for you not to teach pitchers.

Please explain how "pronation is not a natural event" if it always happens when you naturally throw a fastball .......AFTER IT IS RELEASED.

Thanks for the comments, they are appreciated.

[Xavier&Trin...]

The thing that got me into this whole injury prevention thing was that one of my 10U pitchers developed inner elbow pain due to accidentally supinating and throwing a slider.

10 and unders have this problem alot, and its not because they are supinating. Their hands are to small and weak to consistanly get behind the ball. Its easy for them to get around the outside of the ball.

[Jake Patterson]

Then you shouldnt teach pitchers IMO. It happens wether you tell them to pronate or not. Have one of your students that you have never taught to pronate throw their best fastball..tape it, watch it, and then tell me if they pronate or not AFTER RELEASE.. that is unless your teaching him a screwball, but if your teaching screwballs to youth pitchers that would be another reason for you not to teach pitchers.

Please explain how "pronation is not a natural event" if it always happens when you naturally throw a fastball .......AFTER IT IS RELEASED.

Thanks for the comments, they are appreciated.

The child's natural throwing tendencies vary greatly depending upon several factors which include, genetic ability, body type, previous experience, age, etc. Kids will throw everything from full pronation to full supination. Some will throw side arm while others won't vary but a few degrees from shoulder perpendicularity finishing their throws in the PAS hip. Pronation is not natural in most throwing sports to include football, soccer, basketball, etc. so where do they learn it?

I have view hundred of clips of new players throwing and the only common thread I have seen is that there is no common threads. Throwing properly is a learned activity.

[Xavier&Trin...]

Pronation is not natural in most throwing sports to include football, soccer, basketball, etc. so where do they learn it?


Ah, I agree...only with the soccer and basketball part though. I wont say boo if you want to teach soccer players to pronate.;)

I have view hundred of clips of new players throwing and the only common thread I have seen is that there is no common threads. Throwing properly is a learned activity

I would love to see a clip of one of your students throwing their best fastball with no post release pronation.

Thanks.

[Jake Patterson]

I would love to see a clip of one of your students throwing their best fastball with no post release pronation.

This is not the discussion. All my pitchers do. The discussion is whether or not it is natural and needs to be taught.

[Baseball gLove]

Wrong... The pronation of the hand is the result of motion that is determined at the start of the release. We don't throw a ball and then suddenly decide to pronate at the end of the throw. It's a fluid dynamic process, not puncuated steps.


You are correct.

[XV84]

Ah, I agree...only with the soccer and basketball part though. I wont say boo if you want to teach soccer players to pronate.;)


I pronate when shooting a basketball. But I think pronation/supination is irrelevant there because the elbow and shoulder are not under the same stress as throwing a baseball.

[Chris O'Leary]

I pronate when shooting a basketball. But I think pronation/supination is irrelevant there because the elbow and shoulder are not under the same stress as throwing a baseball.

Correct.

When throwing, the issue is valgus stress, which is quite different.

This is Valgus stress. It's the force that's try to pull Billy Wagner's arm out of the elbow joint and back toward 2B.

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Images/Examples/Example_ReversePitchingForearmBounce_BillyWagner_0 01.jpg

[fgold68]

Supination.




Also, you have to pronate at the right moment, which is just before the release point. To do that, you don't want to pronate too early as you do when you show the ball to CF.
.

ok great stuff guys thanks

chris I do have one question for you though.... I thought as a pitcher you DO NOT "show the ball" to cf or 2nd base. I thought it was 3b=ok
home plate=better 1b= best

Is this not the case?

[fgold68]

So If I am to understand this (chris and jakes point of view)

You actively try to pronate a fast ball at the release point. Not a ton but some.

Now assuming you are throwing a 2 seam Does pronating have ANY real effect on the balls movement (ie sink or tail etc)

Or is the purpose of pronating on a fastball really more about protecting the arm/elbow?


What about a palm ball, fork ball, splitter, cut fastball or change up? Are you to pronate to some degree with those pitches?

A slider and curve would be supination correct?

thanks again


and I mean that to EVERYONE not just jake and chris. This has been a very good discussion so far

frank

[Jake Patterson]

I pronate when shooting a basketball. But I think pronation/supination is irrelevant there because the elbow and shoulder are not under the same stress as throwing a baseball. If you pronate while shooting a basketball then you are shooting wrong.

[Jake Patterson]

So If I am to understand this (chris and jakes point of view)

You actively try to pronate a fast ball at the release point. Not a ton but some.
Yes
Now assuming you are throwing a 2 seam Does pronating have ANY real effect on the balls movement (ie sink or tail etc) Yes, any kind of spin does. The amount of spin and speed you have determines how much the ball breaks.
Or is the purpose of pronating on a fastball really more about protecting the arm/elbow? With youngsters yes.
A slider and curve would be supination correct?

[Chris O'Leary]

You actively try to pronate a fast ball at the release point. Not a ton but some.

Yes.

The difference between a FB and a screwball is the amount of pronation and thus the spin axis.


Now assuming you are throwing a 2 seam Does pronating have ANY real effect on the balls movement (ie sink or tail etc)

Yes.

Both tail and sink. Which depends to a degree on the arm slot.


Or is the purpose of pronating on a fastball really more about protecting the arm/elbow?

Yes.

It protects the elbow and causes the ball to move horizontally, which makes it harder to hit solidly.


What about a palm ball, fork ball, splitter, cut fastball or change up? Are you to pronate to some degree with those pitches?

The circle change-up is very commonly taught to be thrown with pronation. That's why some people tell you to "throw the circle". That causes you to pronate.

A cut fastball generally involves some supination, which I think explains some of Mariano Rivera's elbow problems despite his having generally superior mechanics.


A slider and curve would be supination correct?

Generally, but that's not necessary. You can pronate a slider and curve (but it's not commonly taught).

[XV84]

If you pronate while shooting a basketball then you are shooting wrong.

Let me re-phrase that. I maintain the pronation when shooting a basketball. My hand is already pronated before releasing the ball. Obviously I don't want to supinate when shooting a basketball, otherwise, I'd be shooting a "slider". I think about pronating because it helps me with the follow-through, "finish with the thumb down", just like throwing a baseball.


Generally, but that's not necessary. You can pronate a slider and curve (but it's not commonly taught).

Chris, would you agree that it is easier to pronate a slider and curve from an overhand arm slot than a 3/4 to sidearm slot?

[Chris O'Leary]

Chris, would you agree that it is easier to pronate a slider and curve from an overhand arm slot than a 3/4 to sidearm slot?

I think so.

[kylebee]

You can clearly see that Brandon Webb gets insane sink on his pitches by getting inside the baseball and pronating.

Pronation is not a natural event. I have seen plenty of youth pitchers who end up with a supinated grip in video analysis, even on fastballs and changeups.