Long Swing [Archive] - Baseball Fever

tom.guerry

08-20-2007, 04:58 PM

the glauss comparison clip comes form derby swings on the clip at youthbaseballcoaching. There are 3 swings on that clip. the last one is on a more inside pitch than the one here and the bat in that case would easily miss the fence, BUT Glaus and Jim are missing the fence in very diferent ways. Glauss is slightly more off the plate, but the reason he can miss the fence is the way he swings, not his position in the stance.

glauss swings on the diagonal and has great "early batspeed". He misses the fence becasue of great torso twist, a short swing radius, swinging on the diagonal and "keeping the hands back. His hands are still back at the back seam of the jersey when the bat tip gets as far out as it will. Jim's are in front of the chest and he has pulled the front shoulder way out.

Fence drill can be good or bad depending on how you swing.

The early batspeed requires torquing the handle early as the hands stay back among other things.

SluggerCF91

08-20-2007, 05:09 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSnnM1ghlfg
Try that

I heard of that drill, and Ive done it a lot. But I feel taking dry swings a bats length away from a fence or pole wont help me take a nice short swing to a live pitched baseball. I feel like I can practice forever and take all the good short swings I can dry or off a tee, but when I get in the box, I go back to that long swing.

Is there anything I can do so that I can bring my short swing into the game?

BoardMember

08-20-2007, 05:17 PM

My first inclination is that the bat is WAY to big for you. Gosh dude, look at the size of the bat compared to your frame:

http://i9.tinypic.com/66uu0l4.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSnnM1ghlfg
Try that

BoardMember

08-20-2007, 05:18 PM

Tom, where can I see slo-motion vids of female golf swings for my wife to view?

the glauss comparison clip comes form derby swings on the clip at youthbaseballcoaching. There are 3 swings on that clip. the last one is on a more inside pitch than the one here and the bat in that case would easily miss the fence, BUT Glaus and Jim are missing the fence in very diferent ways. Glauss is slightly more off the plate, but the reason he can miss the fence is the way he swings, not his position in the stance.

glauss swings on the diagonal and has great "early batspeed". He misses the fence becasue of great torso twist, a short swing radius, swinging on the diagonal and "keeping the hands back. His hands are still back at the back seam of the jersey when the bat tip gets as far out as it will. Jim's are in front of the chest and he has pulled the front shoulder way out.

Fence drill can be good or bad depending on how you swing.

The early batspeed requires torquing the handle early as the hands stay back among other things.

SluggerCF91

08-20-2007, 05:52 PM

My first inclination is that the bat is WAY to big for you. Gosh dude, look at the size of the bat compared to your frame:

http://i9.tinypic.com/66uu0l4.jpg
I usually use a 32" (-3) bat, however the bat in the video was either a 33 1/2 - 34" bat, so it was about 2-3 onces heavier than what I normally use.

Im 6' 160 Ibs. What do you mean compared to my frame? I know kids 5'6" 140 swinging 33" bats, and hitting well.

tom.guerry

08-20-2007, 06:05 PM

BM-

register for "free" at golfdigest.com.
then you have access to their library of "swing sequences".

check out Michelle Wie before she broke her wrist and got messed up by Leadbetter.

JackB1

08-20-2007, 07:30 PM

BoardMember

08-20-2007, 07:33 PM

I usually use a 32" (-3) bat, however the bat in the video was either a 33 1/2 - 34" bat, so it was about 2-3 onces heavier than what I normally use.

Im 6' 160 Ibs. What do you mean compared to my frame? I know kids 5'6" 140 swinging 33" bats, and hitting well.

It's very obvious to me that the bat is too long and too heavy for you.

I'd like to see a swing with a 32" bat.

Also, check out the lead arm bar on the load. It's a little extreme for me.

jamesh23

08-20-2007, 07:41 PM

yea bat does look to big for you, 6' 160lbs is not big at all your pretty skinny, Im 5'7" 150lbs and im not even big im sorta medium lol, but yea im just sayin thats how you could shorten your swing idk if it works but thats what i heard.

jbooth

08-20-2007, 07:41 PM

The guy on the right would definately hit the fence. The guy on the left couldn't hit if his life depended on it using that drill. What a horrible drill.........

I'm assuming that you know that is me, on the left.

And, it is a drill, which makes the move exaggerated, but it is a good drill. It teaches you to keep the hands back at the shoulder, and lag the bathead, and keep the hands moving to the pull side.

Kind of stupid to put me doing a drill, next to a real swing, and then criticize. Of course it will look different. Somebody took the clip of me and put it next to Glaus. I'm not the one who did that. I was showing a drill, not a swing at a moving ball.

That is an old clip. When I do the drill now, I get a little bit further from the fence so that I don't have to exaggerate the inside movement, but I stay close enough to the fence, that I MUST NOT cast, or disconnect away from my body.

I get far enough away that I can take a "natural/real" swing and learn to get through this position:

http://firstpickclub.com/images/bonds_approach1.jpg

Here is another with me on the right this time, and in an exaggerated position, but the drill is to learn to get through the zone like the guy on the left. I was standing 19" from the fence, now I do it from 23" and I look more like the guy on the left.

http://firstpickclub.com/images/bondsfence.jpg

SluggerCF91

08-20-2007, 10:16 PM

You can try moving closer to the plate so you arent inclined to "reach" so much and also try and contact the ball deeper in towards the plate, instead of lunging or reaching out for it.
I think thats excellent advice, thank you.

It's very obvious to me that the bat is too long and too heavy for you.

I'd like to see a swing with a 32" bat.

Also, check out the lead arm bar on the load. It's a little extreme for me.
I agree that bat is too long and heavy for me to swing hard, while maintaining good mechanics.

I will try to work on recording a few swings using a 32-29 bat.

I dont know what you mean by lead arm bar. Does that mean I locked my front elbow? If so, I agree, and I dont think thats a good thing, am I right?

6' 160lbs is not big at all your pretty skinny, Im 5'7" 150lbs and im not even big im sorta medium lol,
I dont think skinny is the right word. I think what you meant is Im pretty light, for my height. And yea I agree, I'am. But Im by no means skinny, when I hear skinny I think anarexic and hunched over.... I have a lotta muscle that I worked hard to build over the last 3 years. I'm by no means "jacked outta my mind" lol, but I'am somewhat built.

BTW, Ive never gotten it checked, but my body fat % is probbaly 0.000000001% (exaggerated). That may be why I'm so light compared to other ballplayers. Others have lots of body fat on them, I dont.

BoardMember

08-20-2007, 10:18 PM

Lets just say I did recognize the guy. And so the sarcastic critisizm.

As far as the drill goes, if you look at the bottom hand position in the drill when compared to a live swing, you will see why I'm not a fan. The swing is unrealistically cramped when using this drill IMO.

Notice the bottom hand/arm MUST be pulled out of position towards the front side to square the bat to the contact position. This is NOT real arm action or contact position.

Look at both clips (bonds and glauss). The bottom hand should always stay at the top hand arm pit at contact. The fence drill causes lead shoulder and lead arm/hand to fly open to square the bat head.

Sorry, just don't like the drill.

I'm assuming that you know that is me, on the left.

And, it is a drill, which makes the move exaggerated, but it is a good drill. It teaches you to keep the hands back at the shoulder, and lag the bathead, and keep the hands moving to the pull side.

Kind of stupid to put me doing a drill, next to a real swing, and then criticize. Of course it will look different. Somebody took the clip of me and put it next to Glaus. I'm not the one who did that. I was showing a drill, not a swing at a moving ball.

That is an old clip. When I do the drill now, I get a little bit further from the fence so that I don't have to exaggerate the inside movement, but I stay close enough to the fence, that I MUST NOT cast, or disconnect away from my body.

I get far enough away that I can take a "natural/real" swing and learn to get through this position:

http://firstpickclub.com/images/bonds_approach1.jpg

Here is another with me on the right this time, and in an exaggerated position, but the drill is to learn to get through the zone like the guy on the left. I was standing 19" from the fence, now I do it from 23" and I look more like the guy on the left.

http://firstpickclub.com/images/bondsfence.jpg

BoardMember

08-20-2007, 10:35 PM

I dont know what you mean by lead arm bar. Does that mean I locked my front elbow? If so, I agree, and I dont think thats a good thing, am I right?

Correct, you do, and it makes for a real long slow swing:

http://i9.tinypic.com/6h79ma0.jpghttp://i16.tinypic.com/4v84i3b.jpg

Basically what it means is your hands are pushed back outside the core (torso/shoulders) and you lose ability to drive the hands quickly and powerfully with the core to contact.

Watch Howard move the hands into the core to drive the swing. You can't because your elbow is locked out (barred).

http://i11.tinypic.com/5zgwzev.gif

SluggerCF91

08-20-2007, 11:14 PM

Well now that I know that locking my front elbow during the load is contributing to me having a longer swing then I should have, I need to fix it.

How could I go about doing that?

hiddengem

08-20-2007, 11:30 PM

My first inclination is that the bat is WAY to big for you. Gosh dude, look at the size of the bat compared to your frame:

http://i9.tinypic.com/66uu0l4.jpg

I wonder where that bat came from:D

BoardMember

08-20-2007, 11:32 PM

Tom, I don't see a "registration" section. I see a subscribe for 12 bucks though.

BM-

register for "free" at golfdigest.com.
then you have access to their library of "swing sequences".

check out Michelle Wie before she broke her wrist and got messed up by Leadbetter.

BoardMember

08-20-2007, 11:36 PM

Well now that I know that locking my front elbow during the load is contributing to me having a longer swing then I should have, I need to fix it.

How could I go about doing that?

It's easy. Just think about "elbowing" the pitcher in the chin with the lead elbow when you start the swing.:think:

jbooth

08-20-2007, 11:48 PM

Well now that I know that locking my front elbow during the load is contributing to me having a longer swing then I should have, I need to fix it.

How could I go about doing that?

Do the fence drill, and learn to keep your arm bent as you turn your shoulders.

You're going to get a bunch of people who disagree with me. But, try it and see if it works for you. It works for me and MANY of my students.

Put your toes 23 inches from a fence, and then do the drill in SLOW motion. Turn with a bent front arm, and your hands at your shoulder until your chest is facing the pitcher, and the bat is parallel with the fence, then just direct your hands to the left WHILE you continue to turn the shoulders. Start in slow motion and gradually increase the speed until you can make a real swing and not hit the fence.

You have to do the drill correctly. If you do some wierd motion to simply avoid the fence, it isn't productive. If you turn with a bent arm and the hands at the shoulder and then continue to turn as the hands go left, the bat will come through in a REAL motion. It's a bad drill if you don't do it right. I've fixed a lot of bad swings using it. Just try it. You're not going to get better swinging with that arm straight as you are now, so you have to try something.

http://firstpickclub.com/images/bondsfence.jpg

BoardMember

08-21-2007, 12:09 AM

Of course, you have to stand almost the length of a bat (32"-34" measured from a squared front hip) away from the fence to emulate the "true release", since the top hand is almost never pulled inside the front hip at contact. I guess you could use it to practice EXTREME inside pitches if you want to grove this type of swing:

http://photos.imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/pro//Pujols-06-front.gif

Vs. your standard down the middle practice swing like these guys, who would kill the fence on a regular swing:

http://photos.imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/pro//APujols2005STL_G5HR_FView.gifhttp://i12.tinypic.com/6bvalpz.gif

http://firstpickclub.com/images/bondsfence.jpg

Elbow the pitcher in the chin. You won't cramp the swing artificially, and the swing will automatically become angular.

jbooth

08-21-2007, 12:41 AM

It's easy. Just think about "elbowing" the pitcher in the chin with the lead elbow when you start the swing.:think:

Any drill can be good or bad depending on how it's done, and the coach needs to be there to make corrections.

"elbow the pitcher in the chin" can be bad also. The student will often just pull the elbow in that direction, and thus cause an arm swing with the hands coming away from the back shoulder ahead of rotation.

Rotate and think of elbowing someone standing behind you and just in front of your front shoulder, is probably better. That rotates the bent elbow with the shoulders, and the hands back. I use that one too. Whatever it takes to get the arm bent, and hands back, as shoulder rotation starts.

Doing your drill, or the elbow the guy behind you drill, doesn't give immediate feedback as to whether you are doing it correctly. If you hit the fence you know you did it wrong.

tom.guerry

08-21-2007, 08:30 AM

Sorry BM, looks like they have redone the site and eliminated the "free" option.

Looks like a name and subscription number is now required.

The clips are good there.

JIM-

As BM points out, the Danger of the fence/close fence/enforcer drill is that you will screw up lead arm/shoulder.

On the other hand, A good high level swing has "early batspeed" and can sqare the ball without hitting out around it before contact so that only the distance from the contact point to the bat tip is needed to clear the fence.

The high level swing requires keeping the back arm slotted/bend in back elbow and swinging on the diagonal which means "swinging down" via shoulder tilt (not arm extension) are ways to have a bellyup quick swing thatwill clear the fence and be consistent with a high level early batspeed swing.

So Epstein's goal is to teach keeping hands in and keeping the back arm from messing up connection (prevent "top hand dominance), but the drill is more INDIRECT in doing this than Mankin's one arm/top hand swing into bag, for example which is a more direct way to teach back arm action that does not interfere with connection.

Then you need to learn back arm action that ENHANCES connection/coil/earliness of batspeed which WILL clear a close enforcer type fence.

jbooth

08-21-2007, 10:54 AM

JIM-

As BM points out, the Danger of the fence/close fence/enforcer drill is that you will screw up lead arm/shoulder.

There's danger in doing ANY drill incorrectly. I watch my students closely and make them move correctly. At first, they don't, but once they feel where they need to be, they do it. I really don't care what you or anybody else thinks about the drill. It works for me, the way that I use it. All teachers have their personal drills that they like, and if they have success then it's good. If you don't like this drill, or can't understand how I make it work in a successful manner, then don't use it.

So Epstein's goal is to teach keeping hands in and keeping the back arm from messing up connection (prevent "top hand dominance), but the drill is more INDIRECT in doing this than Mankin's one arm/top hand swing into bag, for example which is a more direct way to teach back arm action that does not interfere with connection.

Yes, but I modified the drill. Epstein puts you VERY close to the fence, (13 inches) and you really have to make what I feel are unnatural moves to get the bat through without hitting the fence. But, he knows that it is an exaggeration, he just wants the hitter to understand the concept of lagging the bat, and keeping a circular path with the hands. I put them 22 inches from the fence. I want them to feel how the bathead lags and nothing is done to the bat from hand movement, until they get the shoulders well into their turn. It cures them from pushing the bathead too soon with the top hand. It cures front arm bar. It cures pushing the hands away from the body. Those are good things to fix, so why is the drill bad?

SluggerCF91

08-21-2007, 11:00 AM

I wonder where that bat came from:D
Haha I was going to say that was the bat from you, but then everyone might start to ask for bats :)

My goal is to hit well. And that requires me to shorten my swing up (in the batters box). I think the fence drill will help me to take short practice swings, but will that induce enough muscle memory so that when I'm in the batters box, I wont have to think about staying short to the ball?

And aside from the fence drill, are there any other methods of me taking shorter swings in the game? (such as soft toss from behind, training aids, etc)

hiddengem

08-21-2007, 11:04 AM

Haha I was going to say that was the bat from you, but then everyone might start to ask for bats :)

No worries, I had alot of other people ask, but I don't have an unlimited supply.

jbooth

08-21-2007, 11:05 AM

Haha I was going to say that was the bat from you, but then everyone might start to ask for bats :)

My goal is to hit well. And that requires me to shorten my swing up (in the batters box). I think the fence drill will help me to take short practice swings, but will that induce enough muscle memory so that when I'm in the batters box, I wont have to think about staying short to the ball?

And aside from the fence drill, are there any other methods of me taking shorter swings in the game? (such as soft toss from behind, training aids, etc)

Your swing will shorten when you learn how to swing with more bend in the left arm, and move your hands and back shoulder as one piece. However, you can change that, is up to you. Fence drill, or lead with bent elbow, whatever, just do it. Turn the shoulders with your hands back and your elbow bent. That's WHAT you need to do, now figure out HOW. WHY do you need to do it? Because it makes a shorter, quicker swing.

LClifton

08-21-2007, 11:33 AM

where can I see slo-motion vids of female golf swings for my wife to view?

http://www.beauproductions.com/golfswingsws/

tom.guerry

08-21-2007, 12:02 PM

clif-

Can you download these to play in quicktime ?

LClifton

08-21-2007, 12:12 PM

Haven't been able to figure that out.

LClifton

08-21-2007, 12:33 PM

Right click on the clip you want to view.
Click on properties.
Highlight the URL.
Right click the URL address.
Then click on "Copy"
Open a new window (browser session) and in the address right click your mouse and "paste" the address of the clip.
It will now open in Windows Media player.

To view the clip frame by frame in Windows media player:
Click View
Then click enhancements
Then click play speed settings

At the bottom of Windows Media Player there will be ARROW KEYS that will allow you to step thru the clip.

Ifubuildit

08-21-2007, 12:45 PM

Now your going to try and convince me that you guys are not a bunch of old pervs wanting to watch young women in short skirts swing a golf club?

Tisk Tisk.

Elliott. :silent:

Drill

08-21-2007, 12:55 PM

I'm assuming that you know that is me, on the left.

And, it is a drill, which makes the move exaggerated, but it is a good drill. It teaches you to keep the hands back at the shoulder, and lag the bathead, and keep the hands moving to the pull side.

Kind of stupid to put me doing a drill, next to a real swing, and then criticize. Of course it will look different. Somebody took the clip of me and put it next to Glaus. I'm not the one who did that. I was showing a drill, not a swing at a moving ball.

That is an old clip. When I do the drill now, I get a little bit further from the fence so that I don't have to exaggerate the inside movement, but I stay close enough to the fence, that I MUST NOT cast, or disconnect away from my body.

I get far enough away that I can take a "natural/real" swing and learn to get through this position:

http://firstpickclub.com/images/bonds_approach1.jpg

Here is another with me on the right this time, and in an exaggerated position, but the drill is to learn to get through the zone like the guy on the left. I was standing 19" from the fence, now I do it from 23" and I look more like the guy on the left.

http://firstpickclub.com/images/bondsfence.jpg

Yea I have been looking for another drill besides the fence drill. Why? Well it seems some people say that it cause you to open up your left side to fast.
I am not being critical of this drill, I just heard so much bad press about the drill I am mixed up.

But I like your idea about moving farther away from the fence. That would seem it would help you make it through the swing and still prevent an arm bar.

Frustrated with over 60-70% of the young kids in LL arm bar. And still can only find one drill.

respectfully yours,

drill

BoardMember

08-21-2007, 01:39 PM

Outstanding LC! Thx!

They're just .wmv windows media files. They'll play in most any motion analysis software.

Right click on the clip you want to view.
Click on properties.
Highlight the URL.
Right click the URL address.
Then click on "Copy"
Open a new window (browser session) and in the address right click your mouse and "paste" the address of the clip.
It will now open in Windows Media player.

To view the clip frame by frame in Windows media player:
Click View
Then click enhancements
Then click play speed settings

At the bottom of Windows Media Player there will be ARROW KEYS that will allow you to step thru the clip.

SluggerCF91

08-21-2007, 07:03 PM

How could I hit the outside pitch with a short swing?

BoardMember

08-21-2007, 10:28 PM

How could I hit the outside pitch with a short swing?

You can't.

Just start your swing as if you were going to elbow the pitcher in the chin. Don't carry the front elbow up high. Just start as if you were going to elbow him in the chin.

Your arm bar will be cured.

bbfreak8

08-21-2007, 10:55 PM

I didn't read all the posts so don't know if anyone has already said this so if it already has been stated then just verbally slap me a lil for being lazy! :D

But from watching your video I saw that at the end of the clip you took a pitch. When you took it you pulled your left shoulder out a little. This indicates to me that you are starting your swing with your lead shoulder, pulling it out, and as a result barring your arm.....which leads to bat drag.....which is otherwise known as a long swing....whew!

I did the same thing in high school...probably because I was always trying to muscle up and yank the ball outta the yard. Just work on keeping your shoulder in and let your upper and lower half work together.

What Board said above about the elbow is dead on. Good advice Board....that is the same exact thing I think of when I feel my swing getting too long.

Hope this helps!

BoardMember

08-21-2007, 11:39 PM

You did see arm bar Freak. But you just have the cause and effect backwards.

He bars his arm when he loads. Because of this, he has to move his front shoulder out quickly to allow the hands to stay inside the hitting zone and not get out over the plate because of the barred lead arm:

http://i9.tinypic.com/6h79ma0.jpghttp://i16.tinypic.com/4v84i3b.jpg

I didn't read all the posts so don't know if anyone has already said this so if it already has been stated then just verbally slap me a lil for being lazy! :D

But from watching your video I saw that at the end of the clip you took a pitch. When you took it you pulled your left shoulder out a little. This indicates to me that you are starting your swing with your lead shoulder, pulling it out, and as a result barring your arm.....which leads to bat drag.....which is otherwise known as a long swing....whew!

I did the same thing in high school...probably because I was always trying to muscle up and yank the ball outta the yard. Just work on keeping your shoulder in and let your upper and lower half work together.

What Board said above about the elbow is dead on. Good advice Board....that is the same exact thing I think of when I feel my swing getting too long.

Hope this helps!

Go Cardinals

08-22-2007, 06:50 AM

How could I hit the outside pitch with a short swing?

You can get extension on the outside pitches, what albert pujols. Inside he maintains the box, center feild he gets some extension, but when he pulls the outside pitch or hits it to opposite field he gets alot of extension.

I hope that's what you meant by a short swing hitting the ball to opposite field, but you have to flip it at the last second. You can't do what you did in that clip.....

jbooth

08-22-2007, 08:57 AM

Yea I have been looking for another drill besides the fence drill. Why? Well it seems some people say that it cause you to open up your left side to fast.

That's because they don't do it right. They have a bad swing and can't figure out how to swing correctly without hitting the fence. So, they pull out, or lean back, or pull the hands in, or any number of other things except the correct way. The drill is proving that they don't swing right, so they don't like the drill.

bbfreak8

08-22-2007, 10:19 AM

tom.guerry

08-22-2007, 10:30 AM

Bingo, Jim !!!!

"The drill is proving that they don't swing right, so they don't like the drill."

Baseball gLove

08-22-2007, 10:57 AM

It's very obvious to me that the bat is too long and too heavy for you.

I'd like to see a swing with a 32" bat.

Also, check out the lead arm bar on the load. It's a little extreme for me.

My son is 5' 11" (over 6' with his spikes on) 140 lbs., swings a 33-30.

BoardMember

08-22-2007, 11:42 AM

Great! I have 2 fastpitch pitchers, both 5'3" and both 125lbs.

1 throws 60mph and 1 throws 56mph.

Something makes us all different in our own unique way.

My son is 5' 11" (over 6' with his spikes on) 140 lbs., swings a 33-30.

Drill

08-24-2007, 08:30 PM

That's because they don't do it right. They have a bad swing and can't figure out how to swing correctly without hitting the fence. So, they pull out, or lean back, or pull the hands in, or any number of other things except the correct way. The drill is proving that they don't swing right, so they don't like the drill.

that is when the instructor should be able to explain the drill. Instead of say do the fence drill.

It seems so easy but you still have to be there to take notice, the problem

thanks,

drill