8/18-9/7/07 BBF HOF voting thread

[jalbright]

Let the voting begin! For anyone who has not participated before, please read the rules posted here

The Rules (http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=980735&postcount=2)

Please note we have added a new rule. Those players receiving only one ballot in an election may go on to a list from which voters may only vote for a limited number of such candidates. For more details on this rule, please follow the above link to the Rules. For this election, you may not select more than five (5) from this list:



Bando, Sal
Bresnahan, Roger
Canseco, Jose
Jones, Charley
Leach, Tommy
Maranville, Rabbit*
Mathews, Bobby*
McCormick, Jim*
Nettles, Graig
Perez, Tony
Pinson, Vada*
Smith, Reggie
Stephens, Vern*
Veach, Bobby*


For more details on this rule, please consult the link to the Rules above, and to this post: Limited Selection List (http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=980753&postcount=7)

Also, please note that now ballots as short as twenty (20) names are now permitted.

Voting in this cycle will end at 11:59:59 pm Eastern Time, September 7, 2007.

Please note that the contributor ballot will not be counted again until November.

Other information of note is who is in the BBF HOF.

BBF HOF membership by category (http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=980741&postcount=3)

BBF HOF membership listed alphabetically (http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=980742&postcount=4)

Last month's results are posted. You are requested to pay particular attention to those individuals receiving 50% or more of the vote last month, as they are the most likely candidates to be elected this month. In fact, I have specific posts on players receiving 50% or more of last month's vote:

Last Month's results (http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=980745&postcount=5)

Those with 50% or more last election (http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=980767&postcount=9)

I have also posted this with respect to the status of the project:

Project Status (http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=980749&postcount=6)

Finally, I have posted all the players who have exceeded 50% of the vote at least once without yet being elected

50%+ voting history (http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=980776&postcount=10)

[jalbright]

My 8/18 - 9/8/07 ballot

key:
red=Japanese League
blue=Negro Leagues
green=19th century

John Beckwith, George Gore, Pete Hill and Victor Starffin have been replaced by George Van Haltren, Jack Glasscock, Home Run Johnson, and Vic Willis

Players

1. Luis Aparicio, ss
2. Charlie Bennett, c
3. Akira Bessho, p (Japan)
4. Ken Boyer, 3b
5. Perucho Cepeda, ss
6. Larry Doyle, 2b
7. Darrell Evans, 3b
8. Jack Glasscock, ss
9. Frank Grant, 2b
10. Burleigh Grimes, p
11. Heinie Groh, 3b
12. Kazuhisa Inao p (Japan)
13. Home Run Johnson
14. Bid McPhee, 2B
15. Dobie Moore, ss
16. Hiromitsu Ochiai 1B/3B (Japan)
17. Dan Quisenberry, p
18. Sam Rice, of
19. Red Ruffing p
20. Hilton Smith, p
21. Bruce Sutter, p
22. George Van Haltren, of
23. Bobby Wallace, ss
24. Lou Whitaker, 2b
25. Vic Willis, p

[Sockeye]

Luis Aparicio, ss
Ross Barnes, 2b
Jake Beckley, 1b
Charlie Bennett, c
Ken Boyer, 3b
Pete Browning, of
Jose Canseco, of
Darrell Evans, 3b
Frank Grant, 2b
Burleigh Grimes, p
Heinie Groh, 3b
Kazuhisa Inao, p
Addie Joss, p
Dave Kingman, 1b
Chuck Klein, of
Fred McGriff, 1b
Dobie Moore, ss
Dan Quisenberry, p
Rafael Palmeiro, 1b
Sam Rice, of
Edd Roush, of
Red Ruffing, p
Bobby Wallace, ss
Mickey Welch, p
Lou Whitaker, 2b

[Captain Cold Nose]

Luis Aparicio
Ross Barnes
Jake Beckley
Charlie Bennett
Pete Browning
Bob Caruthers
Kiki Cuyler
Frank Grant
Burleigh Grimes
Heinie Groh
Kazuhisa Inao
Addie Joss
Chuck Klein
Heinie Manush
Bid McPhee
Rafael Palmeiro
Sam Rice
Edd Roush
Jimmy Ryan
Hilton Smith
Lee Smith
Bruce Sutter
George Van Haltren
Bobby Wallace
Mickey Welch

[dgarza]

Luis Aparicio
Ross Barnes
Jake Beckley
Ken Boyer
Pete Browning
Lefty Gomez
Burleigh Grimes
Bob Johnson
Addie Joss
Chuck Klein
Ernie Lombardi
Edgar Martinez
Bobby Mathews
Jim McCormick
Fred McGriff
Bid McPhee
Tony Mullane
Rafael Palmeiro
Jim Rice
Sam Rice
Lee Smith
Bobby Veach
Larry Walker
Mickey Welch
Vic Willis

[leecemark]

--I was voting for three of the four elected players last ballot. I have not yet settled on replacements for any of them. If you've got a favorite candidate not on my ballot I'd like to see your case in the discussion thread.

Barnes, R.
Bennett, C.
Boyer, K.
Caruther, B.
Doyle, L.
Faber, R.
Glasscock, J
Grant, F.
Groh, H.
Hernandez, K.
Inao, K
Maranville, R.
McGriff, F
McPhee, B.
Moore, D.
Nettles, G
Rice, J.
Rousch, E
Ruffing, R.
Sewell, J.
Wallace, B.
Whitaker, L.

[BlueBlood]

My 8/18/07 - 9/8/07 ballot

key:
red=Japanese League
blue=Negro Leagues
green=19th century

All four elected in the last round where previously members of my ballot. Added Inao and Beckley. Returnees are Youngs and O'Doul.

1. Ross Barnes, 2b
2. Jake Beckley, 1b
3. Chief Bender, p
4. Jim Bottomley, 1b
5. Pete Browning, of
6. Kiki Cuyler, of
7. Lefty Gomez, p
8. Frank Grant, 2b
9. Kazuhisa Inao, p
10. Addie Joss, p
11. Chuck Klein, of
12. Heinie Manush, of
13. Fred McGriff, 1b
14. Lefty O'Doul, of
15. Al Oliver, of
16. Sam Rice, of
17. Edd Roush, of
18. Joe Sewell, ss/3b
19. Hilton Smith, p
20. George Van Haltren, of
21. Larry Walker, of
22. Lloyd Waner, of
23. Vic Willis, p
24. Hack Wilson, of
25. Ross Youngs

[Cowtipper]

Luis Aparicio
Ross Barnes
Jake Beckley
Chief Bender
Bobby Bonds
Jim Bottomley
Kiki Cuyler
Burleigh Grimes
Addie Joss
Chuck Klein
Heinie Manush
Fred McGriff
Lefty O'Doul
Al Oliver
Rafael Palmeiro
Jim Rice
Sam Rice
Edd Roush
Jimmy Ryan
Lee Smith
Bruce Sutter
George Van Haltren
Lloyd Waner
Lou Whitaker
Hack Wilson

[Dogdaze]

Luis Aparicio
Jake Beckley
Chief Bender
Akira Bessho
Ken Boyer
Pete Browning
Bob Caruthers
Perucho Cepeda
Frank Grant
Kazuhisa Inao
Ernie Lombardi
Heinie Manush
Dobie Moore
Hiromitsu Ochiai
Spotswood Poles
Dan Quisenberry
Jim Rice
Sam Rice
Edd Roush
Joe Sewell
Hilton Smith
Bruce Sutter
George Van Haltren
Mickey Welch
Hack Wilson

[Erik Bedard]

Ross Barnes
Charlie Bennett
Akira Bessho
Ken Boyer
Perucho Cepeda
Gavvy Cravath
Dwight Evans
Red Faber
Frank Grant
Heinie Groh
Kazuhisa Inao
Chuck Klein
Edgar Martinez
Fred McGriff
Tony Oliva
Dickey Pearce
Tony Perez
Lip Pike
Dan Quisenberry
Eppa Rixey
Hilton Smith
Reggie Smith
Joe Start
Bobby Wallace
Lou Whitaker

[DaveTheYankee]

Graig Nettles
Don Mattingly
Billy Martin
Lefty Gomez
Thurman Munson
Elston Howard
Keith Hernandez
Mo Vaughn
Ron Guidry
Jim Rice
Lefty O'Doul
Fred McGriff
Don Zimmer
Tommy John
David Cone
Reggie Smith
Ruben Sierra
Luis Tiant
Dom Dimaggio
Herb Pennock
Jose Canseco
Bobby Bonds
George Bell
Rafael Palmeiro
Paul O'Neil

[AG2004]

. . . .
Dave Kingman
. . . .
Lefty O'Doul
. . . .


Two questions.

1) Why did you cast votes for Dave Kingman and Lefty O'Doul?

2) Why do you feel that Charlie Bennett, Heinie Groh, and Lou Whitaker aren't among the top 25 playerws outside the BBFHOF? (I asked this question last time, but I didn't get an answer.)

Feel free to reply in the main discussion thread.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Two questions.

1) Why did you cast votes for Dave Kingman and Lefty O'Doul?

2) Why do you feel that Charlie Bennett, Heinie Groh, and Lou Whitaker aren't among the top 25 playerws outside the BBFHOF? (I asked this question last time, but I didn't get an answer.)

Feel free to reply in the main discussion thread.

To add to that, welcome, Dave and thanks for voting. Were you aware that this is for players only? Otherwise, Don Zimmer and Billy Martin would not really be considered strong choices. And I'm not quite sure Ruben Sierra is eligible.

Your other choices are, well, geographic to say the least. Feel free to reply in the main discussion thread as AG suggests.

[DaveTheYankee]

Whoops, sorry about Zimmer and Martin then, and yeah, my choices are pretty Yankee-centric I guess

[MadHatter]

Jim Rice
Dale Murphy
Tony Mullane
Dom DiMaggio
Ron Santo
Joe Wood
Phil Rizzuto
Reggie Smith
Charlie Bennett
Dwight Evans
Billy Pierce
Addie Joss
Sam Rice
Pete Browning
Tommy Bridges
Bucky Walters
Harry Hooper
Ron Guidry
Steve Garvey
Elston Howard
Dutch Leonard

[Sockeye]

Two questions.

1) Why did you cast votes for Dave Kingman and Lefty O'Doul?

2) Why do you feel that Charlie Bennett, Heinie Groh, and Lou Whitaker aren't among the top 25 playerws outside the BBFHOF? (I asked this question last time, but I didn't get an answer.)

Feel free to reply in the main discussion thread.

Seems to me that if we all shared the exact same opinions and voted for all the same players we'd elect 25 players every cycle.

[Cowtipper]

Seems to me that if we all shared the exact same opinions and voted for all the same players we'd elect 25 players every cycle.

Exactly.

...

[AG2004]

Two questions (for Cowtipper).

1) Why did you cast votes for Dave Kingman and Lefty O'Doul?

2) Why do you feel that Charlie Bennett, Heinie Groh, and Lou Whitaker aren't among the top 25 playerws outside the BBFHOF? (I asked this question last time, but I didn't get an answer.)

Feel free to reply in the main discussion thread.



Seems to me that if we all shared the exact same opinions and voted for all the same players we'd elect 25 players every cycle. (Seconded by Cowtipper.)



I am aware of this. I was the first person to vote for Hines, Rogan, and Stearnes (all of whom were elected into the BBFHOF before I started these Keltner lists), and was the first person to cast votes for Perucho Cepeda, Dickey Pearce, and Joe Start.

However, there are players whom we don't see as worthy of the BBFHOF, but can see as reasonable choices by other players. I don't agree with Fred McGriff or Larry Doyle, but I can understand the reasons why people would vote for them, and can imagine how, by stressing some criteria instead of others, they could be seen as worthy of the Hall.

I can't see how Kingman is worthy (short of a fetish for career home run totals), nor can I see the argument for O'Doul (short of emphasizing career batting average at the expense of career length and just about everything else).

Last month, when I asked the second question, Cowtipper responded by asking me to explain why I voted for Bennett, Gore, and Whitaker. I told him that I had already done that, and that the explanations were available in my Keltner List thread for him to view. I would like to know why he disagrees with my conclusions or what he feels the weak parts of my analyses were.

Fred McGriff and Sam Rice came up one vote short in the last election. I don't have them on my ballot, but I have provided the reasons why I don't see them as worthy (they are in the Keltner List thread). I voted for Sal Bando and Tommy Leach; my reasons for choosing them are also available on the Keltner List thread.

I have posted explanations for why I haven't voted for popular candidates, and why some unpopular candidates are on my ballot. I am merely asking Cowtipper to do the same thing - post his explanations for some of his choices.

[I am also posting this to the main BBFHOF Discussion thread; further discussion can take place there.]

[Freakshow]

Gore, Hill, Beckwith and Starffin give us a total of 207 players elected to the BBFHOF, in our 49th election. Average elections listed on my ballot slips to 14.3, just short of a new record. Lou Whitaker extends his record for most months on my ballot, over two years I've been voting for him; five others have now been on my ballot for more than a year and a half. The top eight that I think the electorate is missing: 1) Red Faber, 2) Lou Whitaker, 3) Da. Evans, 4) Bid McPhee, 5) Ken Boyer, 6) Eppa Rixey, 7) Bobby Wallace, 8) Red Ruffing.

20 Barnes-2B*
8 Beckley-1B
4 Bennett-C*
25 Boyer K-3B*
24 Evans Da.-3B*
12 Evans Dw.-RF*
23 Faber-P
17 Glasscock-SS*
2 Grant F-2B
3 Grimes-P
12 Groh-3B*
12 Hernandez-1B*
18 McGriff F-1B*
23 McPhee-2B
1 Moore D-SS*
13 Palmeiro-1B*
1 Pearce D-SS*
16 Perez-1B
20 Rixey-P
11 Roush-CF
21 Ruffing-P
2 Van Haltren-CF*
23 Wallace-SS
30 Whitaker-2B*
17 Wynn J-CF*
14.3 ave # of elections on ballot

* = not a member of the Coop HOF
bold = member of the Hall of Merit

[rsuriyop]

1. Jake Beckley
2. Pete Browning
3. Gavvy Cravath
4. Larry Doyle
5. Dwight Evans
6. Jack Glasscock
7. Lefty Gomez
8. Keith Hernandez
9. Bob Johnson
10. Grant "Homerun" Johnson
11. Charley Jones
12. Addie Joss
13. Fred McGriff
14. Bid McPhee*
15. Tony Oliva
16. Vada Pinson
17. Spottswood Poles
18. Dan Quisenberry
19. Edd Roush
20. Jimmy Ryan
21. Reggie Smith
22. George Van Haltren
23. Mike Tiernan*
24. Bobby Wallace
25. Lou Whitaker


*denotes new replacements for the month

[jalbright]

I realized I erred in posting the 8th (Saturday) as the last day of the voting. As usual, it is Friday, the 7th.

Jim Albright

[TheSlaff]

Luis Aparicio
Ross Barnes
Jake Beckley
Charlie Bennett
Ken Boyer
Pete Browning
Bob Caruthers
Dwight Evans
Frank Grant
Heinie Groh
Addie Joss
Chuck Klein
Edgar Martinez
Fred McGriff
Bid McPhee
Rafael Palmeiro
Sam Rice
Red Ruffing
Joe Sewell
Hilton Smith
Joe Start
Vern Stephens
Bruce Sutter
Larry Walker
Lou Whitaker

[2Chance]

Aparicio, Luis
Barnes, Ross
Bennett, Charlie
Bresnahan, Roger (LSL)
Browning, Pete
Cepeda, Perucho
Evans, Darrell
Evans, Dwight
Glasscock, Jack
Grant, Frank
Grimes, Burleigh
Groh, Heinie
Inao, Kazuhisa
Moore, Dobie
Ochiai, Hiromitsu
Palmeiro, Rafael
Pearce, Dickey
Quisenberry, Dan
Ruffing, Red
Smith, Hilton
Start, Joe
Sutter, Bruce
Van Haltren, George
Wallace, Bobby
Whitaker, Lou

[Senor Octobre]

Bennett, Charlie
Browning, Pete
Cepeda, Perucho
Doyle, Larry
Evans, Dwight
Franco, John
Grant, Frank
Grimes, Burleigh
Groh, Heinie
Hernandez, Keith
Inao, Kazuhisa
Johnson, Home Run
Lombardi, Ernie
McGriff, Fred
Moore, Dobie
Perez, Tony
Quisenberry, Dan
Rice, Jim
Rice, Sam
Ruffing, Red
Ryan, Jimmy
Smith, Hilton
Sutter, Bruce
Van Haltren, George
Whitaker, Lou

[Brad Harris]

Luis Aparicio
Ross Barnes
Charlie Bennett
Ken Boyer
Perucho Cepeda
Larry Doyle
Darrell Evans
Jack Glasscock
Frank Grant
Burleigh Grimes
Heinie Groh
Kazuhisa Inao
Home Run Johnson
Addie Joss
Edgar Martinez
Fred McGriff
Dobie Moore
Rafael Palmeiro
Sam Rice
Red Ruffing
George Van Haltren
Bobby Wallace
Larry Walker
Lou Whitaker
Jimmy Wynn

[AG2004]

My September 7, 2007 ballot

PLAYERS
Sal Bando
Ross Barnes
Charlie Bennett
Akira Bessho
Bobby Bonds
Bob Caruthers
Perucho Cepeda
Darrell Evans
Frank Grant
Burleigh Grimes
Heinie Groh
Kazuhisa Inao
Home Run Johnson
Tommy Leach
Dobie Moore
Hiromitsu Ochiai
Dickey Pearce
Spotswood Poles
Dan Quisenberry
Red Ruffing
Hilton Smith
Joe Start
George Van Haltren
Lou Whitaker
Jimmy Wynn

[jalbright]

We've elected three this election: Ross Barnes, Frank Grant, and Lou Whitaker. We had sixteen valid ballots, and the complete results are as follows:



Name votes Name votes
Grant, Frank 13 Aparicio, Luis 9
Barnes, Ross 12 Bando, Sal 1
Whitaker, Lou 12 Barnes, Ross 12
Bennett, C 11 Beckley, Jake 9
Groh, Heinie 11 Bender, Chief 3
Inao, Kazuhisa 11 Bennett, C 11
McGriff, Fred 11 Bessho, Akira 4
Van Haltren, G 11 Bonds, Bobby 2
Grimes, B... 10 Bottomley, Jim 2
Rice, Sam 10 Boyer, Ken 9
Aparicio, Luis 9 Bresnahan, R 2
Beckley, Jake 9 Browning, Pete 8
Boyer, Ken 9 Canseco, Jose 1
Moore, Dobie 9 Caruthers, Bob 5
Ruffing, Red 9 Cepeda, Perucho 7
Smith, Hilton 9 Cravath, Gavvy 2
Wallace, Bobby 9 Cuyler, Kiki 3
Browning, Pete 8 Doyle, Larry 5
Joss, Addie 8 Evans, Darrell 6
Palmeiro, R 8 Evans, Dwight 6
Quisenberry, D 8 Faber, Red 3
Roush, Edd 8 Franco, John 1
Cepeda, Perucho 7 Glasscock, Jack 6
Klein, Chuck 7 Gomez, Lefty 3
McPhee, Bid 7 Grant, Frank 13
Sutter, Bruce 7 Grimes, B.. 10
Evans, Darrell 6 Groh, Heinie 11
Evans, Dwight 6 Hernandez, K 4
Glasscock, Jack 6 Inao, Kazuhisa 11
Caruthers, Bob 5 Johnson, Bob 2
Doyle, Larry 5 Johnson, HR 5
Johnson, HR 5 Jones, Charley 1
Rice, Jim... 5 Joss, Addie 8
Bessho, Akira 4 Kingman, Dave 1
Hernandez, K 4 Klein, Chuck 7
Manush, Heinie 4 Leach, Toimmy 1
Martinez, Edgar 4 Lombardi, Ernie 3
Ochiai, H... 4 Manush, Heinie 4
Pearce, Dickey 4 Maranville, R 1
Ryan, Jimmy 4 Martinez, Edgar 4
Sewell, Joe 4 Mathews, Bobby 1
Start, Joe 4 McCormick, Jim 1
Walker, Larry 4 McGriff, Fred 11
Welch, Mickey 4 McPhee, Bid 7
Bender, Chief 3 Moore, Dobie 9
Cuyler, Kiki 3 Mullane, Tony 1
Faber, Red 3 Nettles, Graig 1
Gomez, Lefty 3 Ochiai, H... 4
Lombardi, Ernie 3 O'Doul, Lefty 2
Perez, Tony 3 Oliva, Tony 2
Poles, Spot 3 Oliver, Al.. 2
Smith, Lee 3 Palmeiro, R 8
Willis, Vic.. 3 Pearce, Dickey 4
Wilson, Hack 3 Perez, Tony 3
Wynn, Jimmy 3 Pike, Lip... 1
Bonds, Bobby 2 Pinson, Vada 1
Bottomley, Jim 2 Poles, Spot 3
Bresnahan, R 2 Quisenberry, D 8
Cravath, Gavvy 2 Rice, Jim.... 5
Johnson, Bob 2 Rice, Sam 10
O'Doul, Lefty 2 Rixey, Eppa 2
Oliva, Tony 2 Roush, Edd 8
Oliver, Al .....2 Ruffing, Red 9
Rixey, Eppa 2 Ryan, Jimmy 4
Smith, Reggie 2 Sewell, Joe 4
Waner, Lloyd 2 Smith, Hilton 9
Bando, Sal 1 Smith, Reggie 2
Canseco, Jose 1 Smith, Lee 3
Franco, John 1 Start, Joe 4
Jones, Charley 1 Stephens, Vern 1
Kingman, Dave 1 Sutter, Bruce 7
Leach, Toimmy 1 Tiernan, Mike 1
Maranville, R 1 Van Haltren, G 11
Mathews, Bobby 1 Veach, Bobby 1
McCormick, Jim 1 Walker, Larry 4
Mullane, Tony 1 Wallace, Bobby 9
Nettles, Graig 1 Waner, Lloyd 2
Pike, Lip... 1 Welch, Mickey 4
Pinson, Vada 1 Whitaker, Lou 12
Stephens, Vern 1 Willis, Vic ...3
Tiernan, Mike 1 Wilson, Hack 3
Veach, Bobby 1 Wynn, Jimmy 3
Youngs, Ross 1 Youngs, Ross 1