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Brad Harris
08-17-2007, 10:45 PM
Hall of Fame Inductees - by position
Pitchers - Grover Cleveland Alexander, Mordecai Brown, Bob Caruthers, John Clarkson, Stan Coveleski, Red Faber, Pud Galvin, Clark Griffith, Walter Johnson, Tim Keefe, Christy Mathewson, Joe McGinnity, Kid Nichols, Eddie Plank, Charley Radbourn, Eppa Rixey, Amos Rusie, Al Spalding, Dazzy Vance, Rube Waddell, Ed Walsh, Cy Young

Catchers -Charlie Bennett, Roger Bresnahan, Mickey Cochrane, Buck Ewing, Deacon White

First Basemen - Cap Anson, Dan Brouthers, Roger Connor, Lou Gehrig, George Sisler, Joe Start, Harry Stovey, Bill Terry

Second Basemen - Eddie Collins, Frankie Frisch, Rogers Hornsby, Nap Lajoie, Bid McPhee

Third Basemen - Frank Baker, Jimmy Collins, John McGraw, Pie Traynor

Shortstops - Bill Dahlen, George Davis, Jack Glasscock, Hughie Jennings, Dickey Pearce, Joe Sewell, Honus Wagner, Bobby Wallace, John M. Ward, George Wright

Outfielders - Jesse Burkett, Max Carey, Fred Clarke, Ty Cobb, Sam Crawford, Ed Delahanty, Hugh Duffy, Elmer Flick, George Gore, Goose Goslin, Billy Hamilton, Harry Heilmann, Paul Hines, Willie Keeler, Joe Kelley, King Kelly, Sherry Magee, Jim O'Rourke, Edd Roush, Babe Ruth, Tris Speaker, Sam Thompson, George Van Haltren, Zack Wheat

Hall of Fame Inductees - by induction
1936 - Grover Cleveland Alexander, Cap Anson, Dan Brouthers, John Clarkson, Ty Cobb, Eddie Collins, Roger Connor, Ed Delahanty, Buck Ewing, Billy Hamilton, Walter Johnson, Nap Lajoie, Christy Mathewson, Tris Speaker, Honus Wagner, Cy Young

1937 - Frank Baker, Mordecai Brown, Sam Crawford, George Davis, Tim Keefe, King Kelly, Kid Nichols, Jim O'Rourke, Eddie Plank, Ed Walsh

1938 - Jesse Burkett, Fred Clarke, Jimmy Collins, Stan Coveleski, Bill Dahlen, Harry Heilmann, Sherry Magee, Charley Radbourn, Amos Rusie, John Ward

1939 - Red Faber, Willie Keeler, Joe McGinnity, George Sisler, Rube Waddell, Zack Wheat, Deacon White, George Wright

1940 - Roger Bresnahan, Max Carey, Pud Galvin, Paul Hines, Joe Kelley, Al Spalding

1941 - Hugh Duffy, Jack Glasscock, George Gore, Hughie Jennings, Bid McPhee, Babe Ruth, Dazzy Vance

1942 - Charlie Bennett, Clark Griffith, John McGraw, Harry Stovey, Bill Terry, Sam Thompson, George Van Haltren

1943 - Bob Caruthers, Mickey Cochrane, Frankie Frisch, Rogers Hornsby, Joe Start

1944 - Goose Goslin, Dickey Pearce, Eppa Rixey, Edd Roush, Pie Traynor, Bobby Wallace

1945 - Lou Gehrig, Joe Sewell

1946 - Elmer Flick
Italics indicates a Veterans Committee selection

Rules

Only players listed on the ballot are eligible for election.
Players appearing on the ballot last played prior to 1917.
Players named on 75% of the ballots will be inducted.
A voter may vote for 0-10 candidates.
There is no ineligibility rule for “banned” players. Nor is there a minimum 10 seasons played rule for eligibility.
Retain the “no automatic induction” rule.
Eligibility rules are not waived in case of premature death of a candidate.
Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the player's team(s), league(s), and to the sport in general.
Each annual election is open for ballot submission Monday to Friday. Results are announced over each weekend.
While everyone is encouraged to submit a ballot in the thread, the actual results of these elections are determined by the members of the Veterans Committee, who are appointed by me. At present there are 10 members and they are entitled to post or PM their ballots, at their discretion.


1947 Veterans Committee Ballot
Pitchers – Tommy Bond, George Washington Bradley, Ted Breitenstein, Charlie Buffinton, Elton Chamberlain, Jack Chesbro, Larry Corcoran, Jim Creighton, Candy Cummings, Jim Devlin, Charlie Ferguson, Dave Foutz, Fred Goldsmith, Guy Hecker, Bill Hutchison, Addie Joss, Matt Kilroy, Silver King, Terry Larkin, Sam Leever, Bobby Mathews, Jim McCormick, Sadie McMahon, Ed Morris, Tony Mullane, George Mullin, Orval Overall, Deacon Phillippe, Toad Ramsey, Jack Stivetts, Jesse Tannehill, Jack Taylor, Adonis Terry, Mickey Welch, Gus Weyhing, Will White, Jim Whitney, Vic Willis

Catchers – Marty Bergen, Doc Bushong, Jack Clements, Duke Farrell, Johnny Kling, Deacon McGuire, Wilbert Robinson, Pop Snyder

First Basemen – Jake Beckley, Frank Chance, Wes Fisler, Henry Larkin, Cal McVey, Dave Orr, Fred Tenney

Second Basemen – Ross Barnes, Jack Burdock, Cupid Childs, Gene DeMontreville, Fred Dunlap, Kid Gleason, Miller Huggins, Fred Pfeffer, Hardy Richardson, Jimmy Williams

Third Basemen – Lave Cross, Jumbo Davis, Jerry Denny, Art Devlin, Bob Ferguson, Bill Joyce, Arlie Latham, Denny Lyons, Levi Meyerle, Bill Nash, Ezra Sutton, Ned Williamson

Shortstops – Herman Long, Ed McKean, Joe Tinker

Outfielders – Ginger Beaumont, Tom Brown, Pete Browning, Oyster Burns, Abner Dalrymple, Mike Donlin, Jim Fogarty, Mike Griffin, Topsy Hartsell, Charlie Hickman, Dummy Hoy, Charley Jones, Fielder Jones, Bill Lange, Tommy McCarthy, Tip O'Neill, Lip Pike, Jimmy Ryan, Cy Seymour, Jimmy Sheckard, Elmer Smith, George Stone, Mike Tiernan, Curt Welch, Harry Wright

1947 Additions: Frank Chance, Art Devlin, Mike Donlin, Miller Huggins, Fielder Jones, Johnny Kling, George Mullin, Orval Overall, Cy Seymour, Jimmy Sheckard and Joe Tinker were added to the ballot. Each retired prior to the 1917 season.

Last Year's Leading Vote Recipients
70% Ross Barnes, Jimmy Ryan, Harry Wright
60% Jake Beckley, Ezra Sutton, Mickey Welch
50% Cupid Childs, Addie Joss
40% Cal McVey, Tony Mullane, Vic Willis
30% Pete Browning, Hardy Richardson
20% Lave Cross, Jim McCormick
10% Candy Cummings, Charley Jones, Deacon McGuire, Lip Pike

Ballots are due before Saturday, August 25.

Feel free to ask any questions here. Also, if there is an eligible player who does not appear on this ballot who you think merits consideration, please let me know and he may be added to future ballots.

NOTE: Please note the addition of candidates who retired between after 1912, but prior to 1917. They are now permanently eligible for the Veterans Committee.

jalbright
08-18-2007, 06:12 AM
1. F. Chance
2. M. Huggins
3. H. Richardson
4. E. Sutton
5. V. Willis
6. H. Wright

Brad Harris
08-18-2007, 07:44 AM
Ross Barnes
Cupid Childs
Cal McVey
Hardy Richardson
Jimmy Ryan
Jimmy Sheckard
Ezra Sutton
Mickey Welch
Vic Willis
Harry Wright

leecemark
08-18-2007, 08:12 AM
Ross Barnes
Frank Chance
Harry Wright

Baseball Guru
08-18-2007, 12:29 PM
Ross Barnes
Jake Beckley
Cupid Childs
Miller Huggins (mgr)
Addie Joss
Jim McCormick
Cal McVey
Jimmy Ryan
Mickey Welch
Harry Wright

DoubleX
08-19-2007, 06:27 PM
Jake Beckley
Frank Chance
Lave Cross
Addie Joss
Jim McCormick
Deacon McGuire
Tony Mullane
Jimmy Ryan
Vic Willis
Mickey Welch

Now that we have some guys carrying over from the regular ballot, anyone else find that their standards are a little bit more relaxed when it comes to the VC?

EDIT: I added Vic Willis - I forgot he was moved to the VC.

Freakshow
08-19-2007, 06:45 PM
R. Barnes - 2B
J. Beckley - 1B
C. Childs - 2B
C. McVey - C/1B
L. Pike - CF
H. Richardson - 2B
J. Ryan - RF
J. Sheckard - LF
E. Sutton - 3B
H. Wright - CF/Mgr

leecemark
08-19-2007, 08:20 PM
Jake Beckley
Frank Chance
Lave Cross
Addie Joss
Jim McCormick
Deacon McGuire
Tony Mullane
Jimmy Ryan
Mickey Welch

Now that we have some guys carrying over from the regular ballot, anyone else find that their standards are a little bit more relaxed when it comes to the VC?

--If I wasn't voting for them on the BWAA ballot I won't be here either.

DoubleX
08-19-2007, 08:43 PM
--If I wasn't voting for them on the BWAA ballot I won't be here either.

I figure this is probably a pretty common take on this, but with this mindset, I wonder what the point is of even having a VC.

For me, I believe the VC is there for oversight and should be slightly more flexible as I believe getting in through the VC generally carries a certain stigma that distinguishes a player from the normal electees. With that in mind, my strategy changes slightly. In the regular election, I vote for the candidates whom I actually believe should be in Hall. With the VC, I open up a little more to candidates whom I don't necessarily feel should be in, but whom I don't really have any problem with being in. It's a difference between active support and passive acceptance. Or to put it another way - when I'm not voting for a player in the regular election, I am essentially actively voting against them. Thus, when I get to the VC, I include the players (if I have the ballot space) I wouldn't mind being in the Hall so that I am no longer actively voting against them and thus giving my passive consent to them being in. If I don't mind them being there, why should I actively be against them by not voting, thereby thwarting the efforts of their proponents? Does this make any sense?

leecemark
08-19-2007, 08:52 PM
--The real VC is intended to let a second, different group of people review those who didn't make the BWAA cut. The BWAA generally has extremely high standards and few borderline guys get the call.
--In our voting it is basically the same electorate for both elections. So I agree there is little point in guys transitioning from one ballot to the next (well agree is probably not quite accurate since you are suggesting a different criteria for the VC). I guess for guys who came really close (Ted Simmons coming to VC near you soon:sorry: ) there is another chance for their supporters to try to get them over the hump. For guys who were running below 50% in the BWAA voting I think there is - and should be - very little chance they will get elected here.

DoubleX
08-19-2007, 08:56 PM
--The real VC is intended to let a second, different group of people review those who didn't make the BWAA cut. The BWAA generally has extremely high standards and few borderline guys get the call.
--In our voting it is basically the same electorate for both elections. So I agree there is little point in guys transitioning from one ballot to the next (well agree is probably not quite accurate since you are suggesting a different criteria for the VC). I guess for guys who came really close (Ted Simmons coming to VC near you soon:sorry: ) there is another chance for their supporters to try to get them over the hump. For guys who were running below 50% in the BWAA voting I think there is - and should be - very little chance they will get elected here.

I agree with everything you're saying, at the root of my take on our VC is that it is the same electorate, and thus I feel I should slightly modify my standards in order to keep things interesting and make the VC more purposeful, rather than redundant. I think it's fair on my VC ballot to incorporate players I did not support in the regular election, but who I wouldn't really object to their inclusion into the Hall, because by leaving them off my ballot I am actively objecting to their inclusion by essentially voting against them.

Captain Cold Nose
08-20-2007, 05:35 AM
Ross Barnes
Jake Beckley
Pete Browning
Candy Cummings
Addie Joss
Tony Mullane
Jimmy Ryan
Ezra Sutton
Mickey Welch
Harry Wright

jalbright
08-20-2007, 06:47 AM
I agree with everything you're saying, at the root of my take on our VC is that it is the same electorate, and thus I feel I should slightly modify my standards in order to keep things interesting and make the VC more purposeful, rather than redundant. I think it's fair on my VC ballot to incorporate players I did not support in the regular election, but who I wouldn't really object to their inclusion into the Hall, because by leaving them off my ballot I am actively objecting to their inclusion by essentially voting against them.

We've already introduced one difference here: in our "BBWAA" votes, we're supposed to consider players only as players, while in our "VC" votes, we're allowed to consider the overall contribution of the individual. That changes the perspective of a Frank Chance or Hughie Jennings for me. Other than that, though, I'm with Mark.

Jim Albright

MadHatter
08-20-2007, 11:24 AM
Jack Chesbro
Candy Cummings
Addie Joss
Tony Mullane
Kid Gleason
Mike Donlin
Fielder Jones
Harry Wright

KCGHOST
08-20-2007, 02:24 PM
Bill Joyce
Denny Lyons
Vic Willis
Addie Joss
Pete Browning
Frank Chance
Hardy Richardson
Cupid Childs
Fred Dunlap
Mike Tiernan

Cougar
08-21-2007, 08:22 AM
R. Barnes
J. Beckley
P. Browning
L. Cross
Vic Willis
F. Chance
T. Mullane
Addie Joss
J. Ryan
M. Welch

Special pleas for Jake Beckley and Jimmy Ryan. Beckley's got career totals that are glaringly qualified for the HOF (4th all time in triples! 2930 hits with a .308 career BA); Jimmy Ryan was a CF who led his league in HR and amassed 2502 hits and 1642 runs despite the short seasons in the 19th century.

leecemark
08-21-2007, 08:28 AM
--Beckley is an interesting case. He was a good player for a very long time, but never a great one. Even though firstbase was a weak position in the second half of his career he was never clearly the best at the position. He is a compiler in the nature of McGriff or Palmerio, but I think never quite as good as they were (although Raffy may only rank ahead due to the artificial help). If you require at least a little greatness in your Hall of Famers then he misses the cut.

Cougar
08-21-2007, 08:40 AM
He looks a bit more like Dave Winfield to me...a guy who was very productive for close to 20 years, and was always among the league leaders, but never led the league in much of anything. (Winfield had one RBI title only; Beckley one 3b title.)

McGriff and Palmeiro had more clearly defined peaks, I think, and then had a number of seasons that, while pretty good, kinda blended into the pack.

Obviously the comparison is less direct because Winfield was a plus defender in the OF who became a DH in late career. I don't have any anecdotal data on Beckley's fielding at 1b, but his range factor and fielding percentage on BB-Ref appear to be sterling. Not that that'll sway many votes...

leecemark
08-21-2007, 09:30 AM
--Beckley had a notoriously bad arm. How he stacks up as an overall defender I'm not sure.

Cougar
08-21-2007, 09:53 AM
OK...like I said, it's small beer...Beckley's case is based on his offense; his defense at 1b would have to be Dick Stuart or Pete Browning bad to earn a meaningful demerit, and it isn't.

The way I see, if he is comparable to Winfield offensively...well, I can't imagine a HOF that wouldn't include the likes of Winfield. So, Beckley ought to be there too.

Dogdaze
08-21-2007, 11:13 AM
Ross Barnes
Jake Beckley
Pete Browning
Cupid Childs
Denny Lyons
Jim McCormick
Tip O'Neil
Hardy Richardson
Ezra Sutton
Mickey Welch

2Chance
08-24-2007, 07:39 PM
Ross Barnes
Jake Beckley
Frank Chance
Cupid Childs
Cal McVey
Tony Mullane
Jimmy Ryan
Ezra Sutton
Mickey Welch
Harry Wright

I don't want to cast an obstructionist ballot, and please accept my apology for asking so late, but why does Ross Barnes belong?

leecemark
08-24-2007, 07:43 PM
--He was probably the best player in the brief history of the National Association and the best player in the first year of the National League. The argument against him is the shortness of his career, but was a great one for 6 years (maybe even a couple more before the NA was formed).

2Chance
08-24-2007, 08:01 PM
The two things I remembered most about Barnes were the short career, which, having looked up, some was in the National Association; and of course, his mastery of the fair/foul bunt. In my mind, they changed the rule and his effectiveness dropped severely, which I was holding against him. The thought process that is out there now is that he contracted a fever which happened concurrently, and the blame for his drop in productivity is now blamed on that.

He gets props for the first home run in National League history, plus being the best player in the NA for six years, and being a great player before that, for which we have no real record. But playing on a team with several Hall of Famers, with them calling him most valuable, also means a lot.

So I put him on my ballot, submitted 14 minutes earlier, in place of Browning.

Freakshow
08-24-2007, 08:30 PM
Jimmy Ryan was a CF who led his league in HR and amassed 2502 hits and 1642 runs despite the short seasons in the 19th century.
Just a minor quibble I like to point out.

For me, I combine games played in LF and RF and consider it the position of corner outfielder. Viewed this way, Ryan (and Duffy and Browning) are not center fielders; they played corner OF.

Ryan played 49.7% of his career games as a corner OF, 47.5% in CF.
Duffy played 58.2% of his career games as a corner OF, 38.9% in CF.
Browning played 43.3% of his career games as a corner OF, 41.4% in CF.

When comparing these three with others at their position, they should not be compared with the center fielders, IMO.

leecemark
08-24-2007, 08:53 PM
--I think that in 19th century baseball LF was considered to be as, if not more, important a defensive position as CF. RF was the least valuable defensive position.

Cougar
08-25-2007, 08:55 AM
Just a minor quibble I like to point out.

For me, I combine games played in LF and RF and consider it the position of corner outfielder. Viewed this way, Ryan (and Duffy and Browning) are not center fielders; they played corner OF.

Ryan played 49.7% of his career games as a corner OF, 47.5% in CF.
Duffy played 58.2% of his career games as a corner OF, 38.9% in CF.
Browning played 43.3% of his career games as a corner OF, 41.4% in CF.

When comparing these three with others at their position, they should not be compared with the center fielders, IMO.

By a strict application of your logic, you're correct.

However, how those games were distributed matters a little. Basically, Ryan was a CF in his 20's, in his prime years, and then moved one corner or the other for most of his 30's. Interestingly, in his two comeback seasons with Washington (after sitting out 1901), he returned to CF at age 38 and 39.

The shift to the corner appears to be only in part a concession to age...it also appears Ryan was making room for Bill Lange, a great center fielder in his own right.

It's a fair point to note he's under 50% in his career games played in CF, but putting too much weight on how the 1890's Cubs dealt with a roster that really had two legit All-Star caliber CF might be losing the forest in the trees. After all, Ernie Banks played a few more games at 1b than SS, but of course we remember him as a SS, for good reason.

Brad Harris
08-27-2007, 01:29 PM
Congratulations to Ross Barnes and Harry Wright on their election!

Official Results
80% Ross Barnes, Harry Wright
-------------------------------
70% Jimmy Ryan
60% Jake Beckley, Frank Chance, Ezra Sutton, Mickey Welch
50% Cupid Childs
40% Addie Joss, Cal McVey, Tony Mullane, Vic Willis
30% Hardy Richardson, Jimmy Sheckard
20% Pete Browning, Lave Cross, Miller Huggins, Jim McCormick
10% Candy Cummings, Charley Jones, Deacon McGuire, Lip Pike

Fan Vote
66% Pete Browning, Cupid Childs, Addie Joss, Denny Lyons, Hardy Richardson
33% Ross Barnes, Jake Beckley, Frank Chance, Jack Chesbro, Candy Cummings, Mike Donlin, Fred Dunlap, Kid Gleason, Fielder Jones, Bill Joyce, Jim McCormick, Tony Mullane, Tip O'Neill, Ezra Sutton, Mike Tiernan, Mickey Welch, Vic Willis, Harry Wright

Composite Vote
69% Ross Barnes, Harry Wright
53% Jake Beckley, Frank Chance, Cupid Childs, Jimmy Ryan, Ezra Sutton, Mickey Welch
46% Addie Joss
38% Tony Mullane, Hardy Richardson, Vic Willis
30% Pete Browning, Cal McVey
23% Jim McCormick, Jimmy Sheckard
15% Lave Cross, Candy Cummings, Miller Huggins, Denny Lyons
7% Jack Chesbro, Mike Donlin, Fred Dunlap, Kid Gleason, Charley Jones, Fielder Jones, Bill Joyce, Deacon McGuire, Tip O'Neill, Lip Pike, Mike Tiernan