Does swing begin with rear heel or hips? [Archive]

JackB1

08-14-2007, 09:10 AM

Jack, go read this thread. It deals with the back knee action in the swing:

Back Knee (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=59166)

BM...I read that thread and will it was informative, it doesn't answer my question, which is this: Why do most posters/teachers here advocate starting the swing with the hips as opposed to dropping the back knee/ rotating the back foot? In the Bonds clip (and in most swing clips), the back knee/foot clearly move first, then the hips spring into action. It is a "chicken or the egg" thing. Is the knee/rear foot moving because ou are turning the hip or do you move the knee/foot first in order to turn the hip? My main question is, as a swing thought, which should you purposely think of moving first in order to get the bottom half rotating? Another school of thought is to think of firing the right backside or "glute" muscles, which will in effect move the knee/foot & hips? As a hitter trying to re-teach himslef the swing from scratch, I am wondering what is the best thought or body part to key on to start the seing forward? Getting the proper initial forward trigger can make all the difference in the world and will shape the rest of the swing for success or failure. Start forward incorrect and you won't possibly have time to make corrections before attempting contact.

jbooth

08-14-2007, 09:36 AM

BM...I read that thread and will it was informative, it doesn't answer my question, which is this: Why do most posters/teachers here advocate starting the swing with the hips as opposed to dropping the back knee/ rotating the back foot? In the Bonds clip (and in most swing clips), the back knee/foot clearly move first, then the hips spring into action. It is a "chicken or the egg" thing. Is the knee/rear foot moving because ou are turning the hip or do you move the knee/foot first in order to turn the hip? My main question is, as a swing thought, which should you purposely think of moving first in order to get the bottom half rotating? Another school of thought is to think of firing the right backside or "glute" muscles, which will in effect move the knee/foot & hips? As a hitter trying to re-teach himslef the swing from scratch, I am wondering what is the best thought or body part to key on to start the seing forward? Getting the proper initial forward trigger can make all the difference in the world and will shape the rest of the swing for success or failure. Start forward incorrect and you won't possibly have time to make corrections before attempting contact.

How does a track sprinter get out of the starting blocks? He pushes off the block.

To start your swing you push off the starting block under your back foot. However, you don't push as a sprinter would, by pushing and straightening your back leg. The push is meant to push your body into rotation AND do it without moving your head. To do that, a whole BUNCH of muscles from your foot to your torso, get involved. And, one leg has to straighten while the other stays bent. It is silly to try and dissect it to the point of which muscle fires first and what sequence they fire in. Just push into a turn. Don't overthink it.

The concious cue that you want to focus on is up to you. The fact is; regardless of what you think about, many muscles are going to fire. Your brain will figure out how to do it. I've tried many different cues, and the result is; regardless of what I think about, the turn is pretty much the same. The whole action takes less than a tenth of a second. How much can you think about? You have to drive the hips around. That is WHAT you need to do. HOW you do it is mostly up to you. You have to do it correctly, which means you have to get the torso rotating, you can't just turn your leg, or just shove yourself sideways, so you have to FEEL it yourself as to what you need to do to make your TORSO turn while keeping a stationary head. The forces go from the ground to the hip, and all the muscles in your legs and hips from the foot to the top of the hip get used. Just DO IT!

Barry Bonds before 756 just reminded himself, "Load the back leg and let it go." Meaning, load up and then push off and let everything go into the ball.

Chris O'Leary

08-14-2007, 10:03 AM

To start your swing you push off the starting block under your back foot. However, you don't push as a sprinter would, by pushing and straightening your back leg. The push is meant to push your body into rotation AND do it without moving your head.

After looking at a lot of tape, I don't see any evidence of a significant back foot push. I do see lots of front foot push, though.

jbooth

08-14-2007, 11:01 AM

After looking at a lot of tape, I don't see any evidence of a significant back foot push. I do see lots of front foot push, though.

So what gets you onto the front foot so that you can push with it, if you didn't first push off the back one? Some miraculous unknown force?

Bonds says he loads the back leg, what miracle unloads it?

Chris O'Leary

08-14-2007, 01:11 PM

So what gets you onto the front foot so that you can push with it, if you didn't first push off the back one? Some miraculous unknown force?

I agree that a sideways push off of the back foot powers the stride, but that's the only push off of the back foot that is visible in the home run swings of most major leaguers.

As an aside, the same thing is true for pitchers.

Bonds says he loads the back leg, what miracle unloads it?

First, Barry Bonds is not your typical human, so it's not likely that most people can do what he says he does. Second, we've established that what people say they do, and what they actually do, are very often two different things.

Chris O'Leary

08-14-2007, 01:16 PM

I have seen many pro instructors say begin with the lifting and rotating of the back heel and many others say the swing begins with the hips or "middle- out". I have a video of John Malee (Pro Style Swing) that claims that hitters that try and start the swing with the hips cause their middle body to get out of synch with their legs. He says that starting the swing by turning in the back knee, which gets the back heel turning, which gets the hip turning, is the best way. In most clips of MLB players, it appears as though the hips turn at the SAME TIME as the rear foot and knee moves. Are they both done simultaneously or does ONE lone part of the body really start the swinging motion?

My currently thinking is this...

1. The batter strides or shifts their weight toward the pitcher.
2. The front heel drops with the front knee bent.
3. The front knee stiffens, which starts the rotation of the hips.
4. The rotation of the hips...
A. ...pulls the batter onto their back toe...
B. ...stretches the muscles of the torso, which enables them to contract stronger...
C. Pulls the torso, shoulders, arms, hands, and bat around.

I could see that dropping the back knee into the rotation might facilitate this process, but my current thinking is that it's the front leg that is driving the process.

Kevin G

08-14-2007, 01:41 PM

Barry Bonds before 756 just reminded himself, "Load the back leg and let it go." Meaning, load up and then push off and let everything go into the ball.

"let it go" does not have the same meaning to me as "push off".
That seems like a reach.

jbooth

08-14-2007, 01:54 PM

My currently thinking is this...

1. The batter strides or shifts their weight toward the pitcher.
2. The front heel drops with the front knee bent.
3. The front knee stiffens, which starts the rotation of the hips.

The rotation starts before #3. #3 finishes it.

4. The rotation of the hips...
A. ...pulls the batter onto their back toe...
B. ...stretches the muscles of the torso, which enables them to contract stronger...
C. Pulls the torso, shoulders, arms, hands, and bat around.

I could see that dropping the back knee into the rotation might facilitate this process, but my current thinking is that it's the front leg that is driving the process.

It's not as complicated as most people make it. It is very similar to walking. As a kid, did you ever play the game "Mother May I?"

Stand at attention and take one complete step forward. "Complete" meaning end up at attention after the step.

What got your body moving forward? Answer; who cares? You know how to do it.

Now start at attention again and this time start the step, but then stop it when your torso gets exactly between your feet and hold yourself there.

What happens? You land on a bent leg, it firms up to stop the momentum of the torso, and straightens to lock you in place and then you feel some pressure on your back foot to stop the reverse of the momentum that came from the locking of the front leg. How did you do this, and what muscles did you use? Who cares? You did it.

The swing is the same basic movement. You shift the torso forward. How does it PRECISELY get done? Who cares? You stop the torso momentum by firming up the front leg.

The difference between the "Mother May I?" step and the swing is that you don't just step forward, you start turning the hips from the back side as the front foot starts to get weighted (or even before). The front leg firms and you continue to turn as the front leg straightens. What muscles do this? Who cares?

WHAT needs to be done? You need to shift and rotate. So, DO IT. Some people feel a push from the ball of the back foot, some feel the back knee push down, some think of turning the front of the thigh toward the pitcher, some people feel a pull from the front hip. Some people feel they turn on the front foot, or around the front hip.

It doesn't matter what you feel, you just have to shift and turn the torso. You can't just twist your leg or spin your back foot, etc. You have to get the torso rotating. Figure out how YOUR body feels it happen.

BoardMember

08-14-2007, 02:36 PM

My currently thinking is this...
3. The front knee stiffens, which starts the rotation of the hips.

Chris, no offense but I completely dissagree with number 3 above.

Take a look at these clips of completely different hitting styles. One thing seems obviously constant. The hips are clearly rotating LONG before lead leg extention even begins. And very often the lead is actually flexing during that rotation, prior to extension at the last moment before contact:

http://i16.tinypic.com/4clpjza.gifhttp://photos.imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/pro/Sosa01.gifhttp://photos.imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/pro//APujols2005STL_G5HR_FView.gifhttp://photos.imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/pro/MRamirez_Side.gif

I think the hips are started by ground force reaction from driving off the ball of the back foot, and the knee action is paramount to allowing rotation to be released instead of inhibited, and is completed by lead leg extension.

Best Regards.......

Chris O'Leary

08-14-2007, 03:44 PM

One point of clarification. IMO the ultimate cause of the rotation of the hips is the weight shift from the back leg to the front leg (whether accompanied by a stride or not). That supplies the linear energy that gets converted into rotational energy.

Chris, no offense but I completely dissagree with number 3 above.

I will plead guilty to oversimplying, but I think what I said is generally correct.

Take a look at these clips of completely different hitting styles. One thing seems obviously constant. The hips are clearly rotating LONG before lead leg extention even begins. And very often the lead is actually flexing during that rotation, prior to extension at the last moment before contact:

I don't exactly see this. I will grant you that there some firming/stiffening of the front leg occurs before the front knee extends. However, when I look at the Sosa clip I don't see much rotation of the hips until after the front heel drops. However, rotation does start with the stiffening of the front leg rather than the extension of the knee.

http://photos.imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/pro/Sosa01.gif

The same thing is true of the clip of Manny.

http://photos.imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/pro/MRamirez_Side.gif

To me it looks like the hips stay mostly closed until the front heel drops.

I think the hips are started by ground force reaction from driving off the ball of the back foot...

I don't see this when I look at the back feet of good hitters. What I see is them being pulled up onto their back toe rather than pushing off of it significantly. I will grant you that something has to happen to the back side, but I currently think that the front side is more important as a source of power.

...and the (back) knee action is paramount to allowing rotation to be released instead of inhibited...

I completely agree with this.

...and is completed by lead leg extension.

I'm not sure if I agree with this.

wogdoggy

08-14-2007, 06:33 PM

After looking at a lot of tape, I don't see any evidence of a significant back foot push. I do see lots of front foot push, though.

I didnt swing a bat for quite some time after hitting 6 dozen balls off a machine the inside of my rear leg was absoulutely killing me,,must have relly worked it :clapping :lightbulb:

Xavier&Trin...

08-14-2007, 06:34 PM

I will plead guilty to oversimplying, but I think what I said is generally correct.

If by being "generally correct" you mean totally wrong then yeah, I can see what your saying.

However, rotation does start with the stiffening of the front leg rather than the extension of the knee.

Rotation starts with the belly button. Rotation does not begin with a leg starting to stiffen.

Chris O'Leary

08-14-2007, 06:38 PM

Rotation starts with the belly button. Rotation does not begin with a leg starting to stiffen.

What turns the belly button?

It doesn't turn on its own.

Or at least mine won't.

Xavier&Trin...

08-14-2007, 06:46 PM

What turns the belly button?

It doesn't turn on its own.

Or at least mine won't.

Your core Chris. Your core. IMO the belly button is a good reference to where the middle of the core is (close enough).

I cant comprehend that your logical conclusion to the hips turning is that the lead leg is straightening. Really a gross miscalculation. The lead leg straightens for a reason, and the least of those reasons is to start rotation.

Chris O'Leary

08-14-2007, 06:50 PM

Take a look at these clips of completely different hitting styles. One thing seems obviously constant. The hips are clearly rotating LONG before lead leg extention even begins. And very often the lead is actually flexing during that rotation, prior to extension at the last moment before contact:

BM, you know I respect you, but let me tell you what I see and why I disagree with this to a degree. Let me do this using the Manny clip, since it show some frames before the front foot plant.

If you go through the Manny clip frame by frame, you will see that his hips don't start to rotate until frame 16. The front toe plants in frame 11. The back heel plants in frame 14.

09. http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Images/ImageSequences/MannyRamirez_1B_001/MRamirez_1B_001_09.jpg

10. http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Images/ImageSequences/MannyRamirez_1B_001/MRamirez_1B_001_10.jpg

11. http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Images/ImageSequences/MannyRamirez_1B_001/MRamirez_1B_001_11.jpg

12. http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Images/ImageSequences/MannyRamirez_1B_001/MRamirez_1B_001_12.jpg

13. http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Images/ImageSequences/MannyRamirez_1B_001/MRamirez_1B_001_13.jpg

14. http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Images/ImageSequences/MannyRamirez_1B_001/MRamirez_1B_001_14.jpg

15. http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Images/ImageSequences/MannyRamirez_1B_001/MRamirez_1B_001_15.jpg

16. http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Images/ImageSequences/MannyRamirez_1B_001/MRamirez_1B_001_16.jpg

17. http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Images/ImageSequences/MannyRamirez_1B_001/MRamirez_1B_001_17.jpg

18. http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Images/ImageSequences/MannyRamirez_1B_001/MRamirez_1B_001_18.jpg

I DO see some flexion precede the extension in the clip above of Manny.

You can see the same basic timing in this flipbook I put together of...

- Manny Ramirez (http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/ProfessionalHitterAnalyses/Documents/SwingAnalysis_MannyRamirez.pdf)

#1WhiteSoxFan

08-14-2007, 06:52 PM

Neather it starts with the legs.

Chris O'Leary

08-14-2007, 07:14 PM

Chris, no offense but I completely dissagree with number 3 above.

Take a look at these clips of completely different hitting styles. One thing seems obviously constant. The hips are clearly rotating LONG before lead leg extention even begins. And very often the lead is actually flexing during that rotation, prior to extension at the last moment before contact:

http://photos.imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/pro//APujols2005STL_G5HR_FView.gif

I do see Pujols' hips start to rotate 2 frames before his front heel plants in the clip above (but that's still pretty close to what I described).

There is no question that this clip makes the case that the front knee extension has to be carefully timed and may be delayed after the dropping of the front heel. Pujols' hips rotate a few frames before the knee extension really seems to kick in.

BoardMember

08-14-2007, 07:25 PM

Chris, I deleted your pics in my reply to save "load-time".

I may have mis-interpeted what you said. Though I still don't completely agree, I believe now that what you said is what you meant. IE: "Stiffening" or creating resistance.

I interpeted what you said as meaning that "Extension" or straightening is what started rotation.

These are clearly different.

I know why you choose Manny. He is closer to your theory then the others I posted, as his "flexsion" is clearly less then the other 3 (Arod, Pujols and Sosa). I certainly can't argue your point because I cannot measure from video when the "stiffening" is actually happening. So you might be on track here. It is really a subjective topic.

I just know that "extension" doesn't start rotation. But I also can't buy "stiffening" being the power that starts rotation either. A "stiffened knee" can't start, or drive rotation. It can "carry the load it", but it can't start it or drive it.

You've heard my theory on what does.

I don't have editing capability here at work, so when I get home, I'll try to post some video evidence of what I see. Heck who knows, I might learn something!

Best Regards

BM, you know I respect you, but let me tell you what I see and why I disagree with this to a degree. Let me do this using the Manny clip, since it show some frames before the front foot plant.

Xavier&Trin...

08-14-2007, 07:29 PM

Chris, no offense but I completely dissagree with number 3 above.

Take a look at these clips of completely different hitting styles. One thing seems obviously constant. The hips are clearly rotating LONG before lead leg extention even begins. And very often the lead is actually flexing during that rotation, prior to extension at the last moment before contact:

3. The front knee stiffens, which starts the rotation of the hips.
I do see Pujols' hips start to rotate 2 frames before his front heel plants in the clip above (but that's still pretty close to what I described).

Im not sure what "2 frames before his front heel plant" has to do with you describing rotation beginning with the front knee stiffening.

Chris O'Leary

08-14-2007, 07:39 PM

I do see Pujols' hips start to rotate 2 frames before his front heel plants in the clip above (but that's still pretty close to what I described).

There is no question that this clip makes the case that the front knee extension has to be carefully timed and may be delayed after the dropping of the front heel. Pujols' hips rotate a few frames before the knee extension really seems to kick in.

Here are the key frames from the clip.

The front heel plants in Frame 26. The rotation of the hips and torso seems to accelerate in a pretty gradual manner. There are no big leaps from one frame to the next.

25. http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Images/ImageSequences/AlbertPujols_HR_GM5_CF_001/AlbertPujols_HR_GM5_CF_001_25.jpg

26. http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Images/ImageSequences/AlbertPujols_HR_GM5_CF_001/AlbertPujols_HR_GM5_CF_001_26.jpg

27. http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Images/ImageSequences/AlbertPujols_HR_GM5_CF_001/AlbertPujols_HR_GM5_CF_001_27.jpg

28. http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Images/ImageSequences/AlbertPujols_HR_GM5_CF_001/AlbertPujols_HR_GM5_CF_001_28.jpg

29. http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Images/ImageSequences/AlbertPujols_HR_GM5_CF_001/AlbertPujols_HR_GM5_CF_001_29.jpg

30. http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Images/ImageSequences/AlbertPujols_HR_GM5_CF_001/AlbertPujols_HR_GM5_CF_001_30.jpg

31. http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Images/ImageSequences/AlbertPujols_HR_GM5_CF_001/AlbertPujols_HR_GM5_CF_001_31.jpg

32. http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Images/ImageSequences/AlbertPujols_HR_GM5_CF_001/AlbertPujols_HR_GM5_CF_001_32.jpg

33. http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Images/ImageSequences/AlbertPujols_HR_GM5_CF_001/AlbertPujols_HR_GM5_CF_001_33.jpg

34. http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Images/ImageSequences/AlbertPujols_HR_GM5_CF_001/AlbertPujols_HR_GM5_CF_001_34.jpg

BoardMember

08-14-2007, 07:40 PM

XT, I believe we both might be guilty of "skimming".

We either both overlooked this statement, or Chris edited in.

One point of clarification. IMO the ultimate cause of the rotation of the hips is the weight shift from the back leg to the front leg (whether accompanied by a stride or not). That supplies the linear energy that gets converted into rotational energy.

So now what we're really discussing is what force causes the hips to begin to rotate.

Im not sure what "2 frames before his front heel plant" has to do with you describing rotation beginning with the front knee stiffening.

BoardMember

08-14-2007, 07:52 PM

Chris, in your "flip book" of Manny, rotation starts in frame 35, and flexion continues through 39. Resistance starts at 40, and Extension starts at 42.

I think of you watch Arod, you'll see even more flexion during rotation then Manny.

UGDodgersSS#13

08-14-2007, 08:08 PM

Based on what I have read and what I am working on myself, Yeager describes it most clearly and completely for me...

1. The rear leg is loaded (shift in bodyweight back, with any of a number of techniques, i.e. lifting the front leg/ARod, tap back/Chipper Jones, lift then step back/Jeff Bagwell)
2. the rear leg pushes forward to generate linear movement towards pitcher.

3. the front leg brakes thereby beginning to convert the forward momentum into rotation around the axis of the body(the fulcrum/pivot point is the front hip).
4. the front leg pushes back to maximize the conversion of linear movement/force/momentum (pivoting on the front hip) into rotation around the axis of the body, maximizing torque. This push back can occur with the front knee slightly bent or fully extended.

The function of the back foot is to push off after the rear leg is loaded and the position of the back knee (90 degrees) with the back foot on its toes or off the ground is the result of proper and "complete" forward weight shift and conversion of all linear movement to rotational torquing.

Some experts believe that if the ball of the back foot remains on the ground that it is a result of incomplete forward weight shift that results in incomplete hip rotation. "Squishing the bug" is a term that is used to describe this flaw in the swing.

Epstein advocates stepping with the ball of the front foot then rotating when the front heel drops to the ground. This seems to be a more exaggerated description compared to Williams or Gwynn who emphasize a soft front foot plant to minimize head movement.
The loading of the back leg was also described by Ted Williams. He did this by slightly rotating his front leg internally. An clear example of this is Ichiro.

swingbuilder

08-14-2007, 08:18 PM

Chris, I would take a look at Mannys shirt from the beginning until the end and notice the change in how the shirt stretches. The leg stiffening or knee extension happens as a "result" of the hips turn and has very little "cause" associatted with the rotation.

Have you seen the clip of Bartolo Colon's midsection while delivering a pitch? I see the rotation happening the same way for a pitcher. Much more "result" and far less "cause". Wouldn't you agree?

bigredmachine#1

08-14-2007, 08:19 PM

for a rh batter the swing begins with pressure applied to the ball of the big toe on his right foot against the ground, then small step forward with the left foot, then load up the bat (the small step forward and loading up the bat happen at the same time), then swing hard (compact) at the ball...vice-versa for a lefty...that's it;)

tadlock11

08-14-2007, 08:41 PM

I have seen many pro instructors say begin with the lifting and rotating of the back heel and many others say the swing begins with the hips or "middle- out". I have a video of John Malee (Pro Style Swing) that claims that hitters that try and start the swing with the hips cause their middle body to get out of synch with their legs. He says that starting the swing by turning in the back knee, which gets the back heel turning, which gets the hip turning, is the best way. In most clips of MLB players, it appears as though the hips turn at the SAME TIME as the rear foot and knee moves. Are they both done simultaneously or does ONE lone part of the body really start the swinging motion?

You may want to look deeper in to what Swingbuilder was getting at: Cause & Effect.

A lot of what you see with swings that seem to appear as a push off one foot (because the heel comes up), or an extension of a leg is because of the core/middle/hips turning.
One way I can think of to describe it, is a torque in the pelvic area.

BoardMember

08-14-2007, 08:55 PM

swingbuilder

08-14-2007, 09:06 PM

you dont hang from a bar to hit. The ground and ground force is important. But, the rotation isn't started with transfer. The way the back foot turns and the front leg straightens is a result of the core's ability to turn itself.

BoardMember

08-14-2007, 09:27 PM

So if you were suspended in mid-air you think you could drive your hips? Ground force has everything to do with starting rotation.

I never said this:
But, the rotation isn't started with transfer.

I said pushing off the ball of the rear foot coupled with the knee starts rotation.

JackB1

08-14-2007, 09:37 PM

4. the front leg pushes back to maximize the conversion of linear movement/force/momentum (pivoting on the front hip) into rotation around the axis of the body, maximizing torque. This push back can occur with the front knee slightly bent or fully extended.

This #4 is the part that I am having the most trouble getting. After hitting with a linear style my whole life, where agressively shifting the weight back and then forward was taught, trying to teach my body to learn to "rotate in place" is a big challenge. I will get it though.....just a matter of time :)

JackB1

08-14-2007, 09:46 PM

in looking at all these clips, one thing is clear to me. The first movement YOU SEE in the launch of the swing is the back knee angling down and in. The hips then follow, with the shoulders and and arms following. What muscles trigger this initital knee movement are probably a combination of a few things.....pressure off the back foot, hips, glutes, core, etc. I guess I was looking for a easy "trigger" to key on to start a rotational swing correctly, but the best advice is like Jim said...."just do it". Know where you have to be and learn how to get you body there and try and "feel" how you get there correctly. I had a similiar quandry when I was learning a golf swing. In the beggining I was thinking of all kinds of "cues". But now my golf swing is all muscle memory and I just focus on small things like "don't sway forward" or get your "front shoulder under your chin". I can't wait until my baseball swing catches up :)

swingbuilder

08-14-2007, 09:52 PM

you said this...rear leg push to get out of that position and off the backside.

That would be transfer.

You also dont hit with both feet off the ground. The ground force is important in the transfer phase. Its less Cause when the rotation happens and less cause of why the rotation happens. The ground is important its just not what causes rotation. Nor is turning the back foot the cause of what makes the knee turn nor is it the cause of what makes the hip turn.

Big Unit

08-14-2007, 10:24 PM

I Think that stiffening the front leg just helps you creates a counter force to give some power to the hips rotation. You're moving the weight from back to front, hips rotation start with the back knee diving in and at the near end of the hips rotation, the front leg is stiffening to give some torque to the rotation. Exactly like when pitching a ball. The arm action ends up with a flick of the wrist that gives the little extra needed.

I'm not a professionnal....it's only my opinion....what I feel when I swing the bat. Although, I'm a mechanical engineer and it looks to me that the front leg stiffening is there to create some torque.

MarkL

08-14-2007, 10:34 PM

bbfreak8

08-14-2007, 11:55 PM

Ok so here's another question/observation that might open up yet another debate...but here it is anyways...

In the link to the thread that Board put up in I think the second post of this thread, Swingbuster said in the last post that "120% of the body weight is against the front side going into contact in MLB players." If this is true, then why do you see BARELY any head movement toward the pitcher? To me, head movement toward the pitcher indicates weight shift. If you were to draw a line down the middle of Bonds' head and body in the animation above he hardly moves toward the pitcher...and in fact his head ends up a tad BEHIND the starting line....and granted that's from the push of the front foot but my question still stands? To me it looks like he just separates and rotates.

On another note, my college coach last year taught that you had to "fire" your back knee toward your front knee (which causes your back toe to be touching the ground instead of the ball of your foot) to get full rotation. He said that the closer your knees end up after the swing, the better. I agreed to an extent. I think that the clip of Barry that I mentioned above shows the right amount of knee separation after the swing.

swingbuilder

08-15-2007, 01:00 AM

bbfreak

stand up and put even weight on both feet. Now transfer the weight from one foot to the other without lifting the foot off the ground. Do this by transfering the middle from side to side and also do it with minimal head movement.

Also, head movement wouldn't be an indication with a wider stance. Nor would it be necessary for a narrow stance. Check the back foot on big league hitters at contact. The back foot for most is off the ground.

XV84

08-15-2007, 04:45 AM

Dodgers--you are right. Yeager explains it best and most completely. The swing works ground-up not middle out..

The swing starts middle out. The ground and bat prove resistance to the middle. The single point everyone fails to see that power from the hips not only go up through the shoulders, but they also go back down through the legs to the ground. That's why the rear foot "flies" off the ground.

You can't drive the hips without having both feet on the ground and a bat in your hands. BM, used a good example about hanging in the air. That would apply to my point. But another example to help explain what I mean is try a dry swing without a bat in your hands. Can you generate the same separation and hand quickness/speed/path as your normal swing? Meaning are your mechanics the same? Are the same muscles being used in the same sequence with the same force?

Every single body part is important. If you don't use enough of your upper body to provide resistance to the middle, your hands will cast.

If you don't use enough legs, you don't get enough resistance for rotation. Sit on a stool with a bat in your hands. Now swing away. Not the same isn't it?

The legs are not a source of "power". They are a source of force. Chris, To favor the front leg more than the back doesn't make sense. Both are equally important. Force has to start somewhere and end up somewhere. Laws of physics. Force travels through the back leg to the hips and back down the front leg. When this force "leaks" there is a break down in the kinetic chain.

wogdoggy

08-15-2007, 06:33 AM

jbooth

08-15-2007, 07:32 AM

I'd love to see hip torque without ground force. In otherwords, hang from a bar and torque those hips. Ain't happenen.....

I'd also like to see a negative move or vertical load that doesn't rely on some amount of rear leg push to get out of that position and off the backside. It ain't gravity.

BOARD MEMBER has that correct..I believe booth first explained this with his stick man model awhile ago..

confirms the reason this outta shape 50yr old guys inner rear leg was sore as can be.:silent:

Yep, we've been through this before. In October last year I posted this, and I stick by it. I've edited it to fit this thread;

Let's see if we can get common ground to start from and define a few things, because I think there is a misunderstanding of what I mean by the legs doing the work. And, many people seem to think that leg extension is the only thing I'm talking about, and some seem to think (just guessing here) that the only way the legs can be involved to move the hips, is for them to extend, and that is not true, and not what I'm saying.

http://firstpickclub.com/images/leg-muscles.jpg

In the diagram above you will see that almost all of the muscles connect the pelvic region (hips) to the femur (upper leg bone).

I call those muscles "leg muscles" some describe them as muscles in the hips or "middle." The fact is; both descriptions are true because they connect the leg to the hip. The question becomes: How do they operate to make the pelvic bone (hips) rotate?

Well, muscles can only do one thing; they can contract. When they contract; the bone with the least resistence moves. (If neither have resistence, like in outer space, the bones come closer to each other.)

The front leg serves as a foundation / anchor for rotation.

The front leg initially braces after the weight is shifted from the back, and that makes the bone with the least resistence from contraction; the rear hip bone that has been pushed upon by the upper rear leg, from contractions between the hip and upper back leg. That rear action, starts the back leg and hip moving around the front hip socket. But, because the hip is now angled, resistence from the ground on the front leg, causes the leg to brace more by straightening, which causes the leg to lengthen, and push on the front hip socket.

Because the back hip has moved and started to unweight the back foot, the front hip has no resistence and it moves backward, due to resistence that is now applied from the force of the back hip moving forward, and force coming up from the ground. So, you wind up with a "twist" around the spine.

If you don't extend the front leg and finish your hip turn, you won't hit the ball very far. The front leg extension could be THE most important part of the hip turn. Turn your hips using your method (using the muscles in the middle, NOT the legs as you see it), but leave your front leg bent throughout the swing, and see how far you can hit the ball. Your hips won't completely turn and your torso won't whip through. Now do it, and properly complete your turn from "the middle", and finish by extending the leg, and see how far you hit it.

Force is applied to the ground. The ground "pushes" back. It is a complex system. Some of the muscle pairs are working with each other to create motion and others are working against each other to create stiffness.

The front leg stiffens to provide an anchor, and extends to supply the last bit of power to the finish of the rotation. The extension of the front leg is NOT just a bracing action, or a follow-thru action, it supplies additional power to the swing. You cannot rotate around the front leg because it is angled, and there is not enough resistence at the hip socket, to hold the front hip in a position for the back hip to rotate around. The front hip gives way during the extension, and the leg angles out and pushes on the hip, which gives way and rotates backward. The action from the back and the front rotate the spine. The spine doesn't move around the front leg.

http://firstpickclub.com/images/leg-muscles2.jpg

In the picture above, note the two lines that I added; the orange line across the hips, and the black line across the knee. First, let's imagine that only the orange line is there and imagine it as a locking bar that prevents the pelvic bone from moving in any manner, but the leg is free to move.

The leg can be moved around in MANY different directions and combination of movements because when the muscles contract the hip is the base, and the leg bones have no resistence, so the contractions move the leg.

Now, remove the orange line and free the hips to move, but add the black line as something that prevents the leg bones from moving in any manner.

When those SAME muscles now contract, the pelvic bone will move because the leg bone cannot.

When you swing the bat with the goal of getting hip rotation, all of those muscles fire, and the bones move, in a VERY complex set of actions. Because the body weight is bearing down through the legs to the ground, and the ground is the primary place of resistence, IMO, it is more correct to say that your LEGS turn the hips, because the force of that resistence, is up through the leg to the hip. However, I understand that it can also be thought of as movement from the hips.

I imagine the movement from a simple point of view that during the baseball swing, actions occur similar to how they would if the orange line was not there. The contractions of the muscles, move the hips while the legs that are attached to the ground, are the source of resistence to the force from the contraction.

If you think of using those powerful muscles to apply pressure from the ground to the hip socket, you can apply a great amount of force to twist the pelvic bone which will rotate the upper body.

If you think of using those muscles to apply pressure from the pelvic bone to the top of the legs, mostly all you get, is a twisting of the legs, but not much force being applied to rotate the upper body. Essentially, the hips are moving the legs, as Dixon says it happens, but that isn't the most effective generation of force to rotate the body. The effective method is to get the reactive force from the ground, to twist the hips, rather than getting reactive force from the hip to push on the tops of the legs.

Also, I have not shown the rear view of the anatomy. The biggest strongest muscle in the body; the gluteus maximus is used to push the hip around using force through the leg to the ground, in addition to all the other muscles on the rear side of the leg.

JackB1

08-15-2007, 07:50 AM

The effective method is to get the reactive force from the ground, to twist the hips, rather than getting reactive force from the hip to push on the tops of the legs.

Also, I have not shown the rear view of the anatomy. The biggest strongest muscle in the body; the gluteus maximus is used to push the hip around using force through the leg to the ground, in addition to all the other muscles on the rear side of the leg.

This is kind of what I was getting at in my initial post. What is the most effective way to initiate hip turn? It sounds like it is more "ground up", than "middle out" like most say. You start the turn with force from the ground up and then use the large glute muscle to keep turning. Is this correct?

randy

08-15-2007, 08:06 AM

When I tell my sons to "push off the back foot" I get the back leg extended, lunging -type motion. We have used the idea of "back knee trigger", which seems to work a little better. Any suggestions for verbal cues for kids to get this so they don't just spin?

jbooth

08-15-2007, 08:06 AM

This is kind of what I was getting at in my initial post. What is the most effective way to initiate hip turn? It sounds like it is more "ground up", than "middle out" like most say. You start the turn with force from the ground up and then use the large glute muscle to keep turning. Is this correct?

Don't overthink it Jack.

And, no, the glute is probably the first muscle to fire. If not, it's near the top of the list. Once the glute gets things going, then all the muscles in the core that attach from the legs (both legs) to the lower and upper part of the pelvis, start firing. I'm not even going to try to figure out EXACTLY which fire when. Just get balanced, shift and rotate, and stay balanced while you do it, angle your leg bones properly. Back leg bent, front leg straight.

swingbuilder

08-15-2007, 09:18 AM

Jim W.

08-15-2007, 09:33 AM

[QUOTE=swingbuilder;977818]Good hitters think and worry about 2 things. They concentrate on the ability to get the hands active and to the ball properly and quickly with adjustability and they concentrate on using the hips. They do not worry about all the rest. Because if the hands are right and the hips are right then All the other stuff falls into place.
QUOTE]

:clapping

jbooth

08-15-2007, 09:54 AM

Groundup is a big muscle move and Slow at that. Good hitters hit with the Hands and the Hips. They do not hit with the foot first, then the knee, then the hips, then the shoulders, then the arms, then the hands. Good hitters think and worry about 2 things. They concentrate on the ability to get the hands active and to the ball properly and quickly with adjustability and they concentrate on using the hips. They do not worry about all the rest. Because if the hands are right and the hips are right then All the other stuff falls into place.

The earth is important. Would a car move if you pressed the excelerator if it were suspended off the ground? Would a ball move forward while turning if it were suspended off the ground? We could go on and on. The earth has value. No one disagree's with that. The back foot against the ground is not what makes the hips turn.

You're both right, and wrong. It depends on your audience. Pros think about hips and hands because their swing is developed so well that they don't have to "think" about anything else, all the other stuff "just happens" for them, because they learned it and programmed it into their swing long ago. When you're teaching somebody who has never swung before, you can't just teach by focusing on what the pro focuses on.

Also, you don't teach with science you teach by showing them how to move with ordinary, everyday language. The arguments develop on this board when one person thinks one thing, and somebody else thinks another, and then they try to use science to prove their point.

You are right that they (MLB players) think about hips and hands, but how do they move those? You are wrong about the science of it, but I'm not going to get into a long, drawn out debate about it. Because you're right, in that the science really isn't the issue. Turn the dang hips. Figure it out from observation and feel.

BoardMember

08-15-2007, 10:12 AM

The back foot against the ground is not what makes the hips turn.

We're discussing what STARTS the hips turning based on a comment from Chris(that he clarified BTW).

The rear foot is pushing transfer, but IMO, the rear foot is still pushing/assisting the rear thigh/knee's internal rotation, which is the catalyst for hip rotation when coupled with the external rotation of the front thigh.

Pay close attention to the back foot and it's positions relative to the BEGINING of hip turn. It is still pushing, helping to drive internal rotation of the rear thigh/knee.

http://i15.tinypic.com/4qxwwow.gif

jbooth

08-15-2007, 11:07 AM

We're discussing what STARTS the hips turning based on a comment from Chris(that he clarified BTW).

The rear foot is pushing transfer, but IMO, the rear foot is still pushing/assisting the rear thigh/knee's internal rotation, which is the catalyst for hip rotation when coupled with the external rotation of the front thigh.

Pay close attention to the back foot and it's positions relative to the BEGINING of hip turn. It is still pushing, helping to drive internal rotation of the rear thigh/knee.

http://i15.tinypic.com/4qxwwow.gif

The force is coming from the glute and other muscles that attach the pelvis to the upper leg, you FEEL the force on the bottom of your foot. The muscles in the lower leg and foot are not what starts the movement.

Go here and click on "laterally rotate" and "abduct" and see how the leg moves.

http://www.getbodysmart.com/ap/muscularsystem/thighmuscles/posteriormuscles/gluteusmaximus/tutorial.html

Now, in the animation the leg is free to move. SO, the body stays still and the leg moves. In a swing, your foot is planted on the ground, connected to the Earth, which sure as heck isn't going to move. So, when the abduct/laterally rotate action is attempted by your brain, which fires the glute, the foot stays still and your BODY moves, particularly your hips/torso. The glute starts it, then a whole BUNCH of sh** happens. Muscles all over the pelvic and upper leg area come into play. People (not necessarily you), seem to think that "push" is synonymous with "extend". Push is simply to apply force. When the glute applies force to the leg bone, it is transmitted to the ground, and when the ground won't move, the body does.

When the body then moves toward the front foot, the glute has to stop contracting so the back knee will NOT extend, the rotation must be completed now, from the FRONT side. The muscles in the front hip and upper leg now brace and contract to apply force (push) against the ground, and again, since the ground won't move, the front hip does, and since the hip is now at an angle, due to the push from the back that turned it, the extension of the front leg shoves the front hip back, which completes the rotation.

OK, I'm done with this.

swingbuilder

08-15-2007, 11:15 AM

Because you're right, in that the science really isn't the issue. Turn the dang hips. Figure it out from observation and feel.

Jim, thats the best comment you have ever made!

BM
We're discussing what STARTS the hips turning

Start = Make = Cause

samething.

The rear foot is pushing transfer, but IMO, the rear foot is still pushing/assisting the rear thigh/knee's internal rotation, which is the catalyst for hip rotation when coupled with the external rotation of the front thigh.

Transfer does not start the hips. The hips can start without transfer.

Pay close attention to the back foot and it's positions relative to the BEGINING of hip turn. It is still pushing, helping to drive internal rotation of the rear thigh/knee

You pay close attention. If your looking groundup 1st youd be starting at the "result" side of things. You'll have to look elsewhere for cause. Cause before Result.

randy

08-15-2007, 11:23 AM

I ask once again, what kind of cue(feel, comparative movement, etc) can I use with my youngest to get him to push and rotate WITHOUT getting the extended, lunging-type back leg action?

swingbuilder

08-15-2007, 11:34 AM

Stop telling him to push. It may "look" like a push. But its not as it relates to hip turn.

Randy, you must 1st get him to feel/ understand "how to transfer weight" without swaying the body. Stand up and do this yourself, ok. Put your feet in a hitters stance setup. Now, apply even weight to both feet. After doing this then apply more weight to the back foot (WITHOUT SWAYING THE BODY BACK). Now, apply more weight to the front foot (WITHOUT SWAYING THE BODY). Understand, all the weight shouldn't go to the back foot, just more than the front foot. Then also understand that all the weight shouldnt go to the front foot, just more than the back foot. Its a transfer not a shift.

BoardMember

08-15-2007, 03:07 PM

Transfer does not start the hips.

I'm not sure why you keep repeating this. Who said this?

Here's what I said:
but IMO, the rear foot is still pushing/assisting the rear thigh/knee's internal rotation, which is the catalyst for hip rotation when coupled with the external rotation of the front thigh.

Then you said:
You pay close attention. If your looking groundup 1st youd be starting at the "result" side of things. You'll have to look elsewhere for cause. Cause before Result.

To which I say:
Go here (http://www.getbodysmart.com/ap/muscularsystem/footmuscles/fibularislongus/tutorial.html)and scroll down to "Actions on the Foot" and click Plantar Flexes and Everts to see what I'm saying. IMO the foot applies force by Plantar Flex/Eversion.

jbooth

08-15-2007, 05:04 PM

To which I say:
Go here (http://www.getbodysmart.com/ap/muscularsystem/footmuscles/fibularislongus/tutorial.html)and scroll down to "Actions on the Foot" and click Plantar Flexes and Everts to see what I'm saying. IMO the foot applies force by Plantar Flex/Eversion.

And I would say that you are correct, and so am I, and so is Englishbey. IMO every dang muscle from the big toe to the top of the hip, on both sides of the leg gets used. It's silly to sit here and debate which one goes first, how much each one fires, and when, etc. If you, or your student, isn't athletic and/or coordinated enough to figure out how to shift and turn around the axis that is the spine, then they need to play soccer or some other sport.

It's really not much more difficult than walking. Make the weight go from the back foot to the front foot and turn while you do it, and keep your head centered while you do it. Geez, everybody is making a mountain out of a mole hill.

Sure, it's a little tougher than that; you have to keep the head from moving forward and up or down, which means your back leg must stay bent and the front leg must straighten, but it's still not that difficult.

jbooth

08-15-2007, 05:09 PM

I ask once again, what kind of cue(feel, comparative movement, etc) can I use with my youngest to get him to push and rotate WITHOUT getting the extended, lunging-type back leg action?

A rookie once asked Yogi Berra,
"Yogi, when I swing I keep pulling my shoulder out. What should I do?"

Yogi said, "Stop pulling your shoulder out."

Tell your son to stop straightening his back leg. Tell him to TURN his hips, and not slide his body sideways. Turn and keep the back leg bent.

MarkL

08-15-2007, 08:28 PM

This middle-out force production theory would get laughed out of any biomechanics lab..Go ahead try it...

Swingbuilder:
Groundup is a big muscle move and Slow at that. Good hitters hit with the Hands and the Hips. They do not hit with the foot first, then the knee, then the hips, then the shoulders, then the arms, then the hands.

The earth is important. Would a car move if you pressed the excelerator if it were suspended off the ground? Would a ball move forward while turning if it were suspended off the ground? We could go on and on. The earth has value. No one disagree's with that. The back foot against the ground is not what makes the hips turn.

Builder--some laughable stuff there--but humor me---WHY IS the earth important?

If it is middle-out as you say, what contribution do the legs make?
Based on your theory, middle-out, energy from the hips/middle works UP to the arms and DOWN to the legs simultaneously.

I can't wait to learn more from your biomechanical expertise.

Mark H

08-15-2007, 09:16 PM

Read Dixon.

MarkL

08-15-2007, 09:53 PM

BoardMember

08-15-2007, 09:56 PM

It's silly to sit here and debate which one goes first,

Ya, but its kind of entertaining Jim, isn't it.

jbooth

08-15-2007, 10:34 PM

Read biomechanical research...Dixon was a photographer not a biomechanist....I have read it...No testing just a personal theory...

see Yeager--a lab tested biomechanist...Dr. Yeager--legs create ground-up forces...

I agree. Dixon is not accurate technically, but he was a step ahead of what most people thought. Yeager has it right, but he doesn't explain it very well. And, I know some people who misunderstand what he is trying to say.

jbooth

08-15-2007, 10:35 PM

Ya, but its kind of entertaining Jim, isn't it.

Yeah, it's nice to know the details, but you can get lost in the forest, for the trees.

jbooth

08-15-2007, 10:38 PM

Read Dixon.

Have you watched Yeager's DVD in its entirety?

swingbuilder

08-16-2007, 08:11 AM

I never said the swing was middle out or even groundup. I merely said the foot isn't the cause for the hips ability to rotate.

I'm well aware of....

Back leg load and....

Back leg PUSH and ....

Front leg Block and .....

Front leg Push.

BoardMember

08-16-2007, 10:01 AM

I merely said the foot isn't the cause for the hips ability to rotate.

Your right. It's ultimately both feet that give the hips(pelvis) the ability to rotate, because they're both on the ground.

Unlike this guy:

http://www.buyamag.com/graphics/skeletonSK1005L.jpg

swingbuilder

08-16-2007, 10:32 AM

BM

you can turn the hips while suspended in air. Put a hook in your head and try it.

jbooth

08-16-2007, 11:04 AM

BM

you can turn the hips while suspended in air. Put a hook in your head and try it.

You can't turn them very well. Not unless that hook in the head is locking your head rigid and unable to rotate.

The muscles that attach the ribs to the hips, would attempt to move the hips, but without some immovable object, (like the top bar/head) they won't move much, or with much force.

Yes, you can (poorly) move the hips while suspended, but that is NOT the way the body executes it, when you're standing on the ground. When you're standing up, the legs do the work, when you're suspended the rib cage tries (poorly) to be the base from which force can be applied to move the hips.

To move a bone, it must have something to push against, whether that be another part of the body that is heavier, or the ground directly, or the ground indirectly. If, when you are on the ground, you try to move your hips with the muscles that are used while you're suspended, you aren't going to get an effective turn, and even if your thoughts are to use the upper muscles, your unconcious mind, is smarter than you, and will fire the leg muscles and push off the ground because the brain knows how to move you, whether you do or not.

MarkL

08-16-2007, 11:16 AM

jbooth:
your unconcious mind, is smarter than you, and will fire the leg muscles and push off the ground because the brain knows how to move you, whether you do or not.

soooo true-----

jbooth----I found yeager to have a very easy to understand and entertaining biomechanical description of the swing---where do you think misunderstandings occur?

BoardMember

08-16-2007, 11:22 AM

BM

you can turn the hips while suspended in air. Put a hook in your head and try it.

LOL, amazing.........

JackB1

08-16-2007, 11:54 AM

BM

you can turn the hips while suspended in air. Put a hook in your head and try it.

Are you serious? I don't even know where to begin with this crazy statement.

swingbuilder

08-16-2007, 11:54 AM

BM...notice that the WHEELS of the skeleton you presented are touching the floor. Doesn't matter if they can be turned well or not. They can be turned.

JackB1

08-16-2007, 11:59 AM

Your right. It's ultimately both feet that give the hips(pelvis) the ability to rotate, because they're both on the ground.

Unlike this guy:

http://www.buyamag.com/graphics/skeletonSK1005L.jpg

BM.....I've been watching this guy for 10 minutes and he hasn't shown any ability to rotate his hips while suspended :)

This discussion certainly has run it's course and headed into the "twilight zone".

jbooth

08-16-2007, 12:13 PM

BM...notice that the WHEELS of the skeleton you presented are touching the floor. Doesn't matter if they can be turned well or not. They can be turned.

Nice job of diverting away from the main topic. Which was; how to turn the hips EFFECTIVELY, in the BASEBALL SWING. Yeah, if your ONLY goal is to turn the hips while hanging from a bar, I agree, it CAN be done. But, what the heck has that got to do with how your body does it when you swing a bat at a ball?

When you stand on the ground and shift and rotate to swing the bat at the ball, your body applies forces against the ground and several bones, using many muscles in a complex sequence, but to put it simply, you push from the back and then from the front, in an almost simultaneous action, and the push is applied in a way that creates a rotation as well as a shift.

Granted, you have to push in a manner that is consistent with being able to hit the ball. Which means; you can't just push sideways, or push yourself up. You have to learn to do it with the correct body posture, and leg bone angles, but it's still essentially, "push forward and push back." Or, as Yeager describes it; "Push, block, push"

wogdoggy

08-16-2007, 12:56 PM

jbooth

08-16-2007, 01:01 PM

jbooth:

jbooth----I found yeager to have a very easy to understand and entertaining biomechanical description of the swing---where do you think misunderstandings occur?

Several reasons;

1. Very few people have much of an understanding of physics.

2. Few people have much knowledge of anatomy, particularly muscles and bones.

3. Without the above two, it's hard to grasp bio-mechanics.

4. He uses the word "push" a lot, and he means it in the physics sense, which is to apply force, and IMO, most people immediately think of "push" as a movement where a joint changes from bent to straight. And that isn't what he means.

5. Muscles can only contract. Muscles basically (over-simplifying here), connect one bone to another. To move the bone(s), the muscle(s) contracts. When it contracts, the end that has the least resistance moves. Example; when you do a push-up, (simplifying again), muscles contract to extend the arm from a bent elbow position, to a straight position. Your body is lighter than the Earth, and if your muscles can apply enough force against the Earth, your body moves (not the Earth.)
Now, if you lay on your back to do a bench press, and when you move the weight from a bent elbow position to a straight position, you use essentially the same muscles and they apply force pretty much the same way, but now the weight moves and your body, (which is now part of the Earth) stays still. The force is actually going against the Earth, you just think it's going against the bar. Actually, the force is going in both directions, but the only side that is going to move is the barbell side.

So, when you start a swing, you apply force against the ground, and your body moves. The force is coming from activation of a LOT of different muscles, and they are activated in a complex sequence, but it's still simply an application of force against the ground. The angles at which the force is applied affect how the movement occurs. That's why you can't just push and extend your back leg, you have to apply the force at bone angles that will allow you to forcefully turn, AND maintain a correct posture so you can hit the ball.

Get in a push up position. Lower down until your arms are bent. Now push up with just one arm. What happens? Your torso twists. Now, start over and push with one arm and then the other. What happens? It twists one way, and then twists back to the original angle. This is basically what happens in the swing with the legs. The back leg pushes the pelvic bone at an angle that starts the torso twisting, then the front leg pushes on the opposite side, and twists it again with force from another angle.

I'm not going to pretend to know EXACTLY which muscle fires first, or the sequence in which they fire. All I know for sure, is that the force is between the ground and the hip, and it's applied by probably all the muscles that connect the hip to the upper leg, and the upper leg to the lower leg, and the lower leg to the foot. Your brain can figure it out.

jbooth

08-16-2007, 01:15 PM

your unconcious mind, is smarter than you, and will fire the leg muscles and push off the ground because the brain knows how to move you, whether you do or not.

soooo true-----

and proves my point about the soreness in my back inner leg..if they werent working hard they would never hurt.:clapping :clapping :clapping :clapping :clapping :clapping :clapping

Yes, and you feel it in your inner leg and not in your thigh, because you know that you have to apply force with the leg at an angle, which uses the inner muscles. If you made a lousy swing by pushing in a rear leg extension mode, you would have been sore in your calf, and thigh.

This discussion is good, in the sense that it points out that there is a right way and a wrong way to turn, and different muscles are used in the right way, versus in the wrong way, but why try to learn to turn by thinking of muscles. Why not focus on the movement needed, and how the bones need to move, and then let your brain figure out which of the 50 muscles should fire, and in which order?

You have to shift and rotate, which means that you can't just extend your back leg, you can't just lift the back heel, you can't just spin the leg in the back hip socket. You must drive the hips around with the legs in such a way, that the torso stays centered. Figure that out!:shrug:

JackB1

08-16-2007, 01:54 PM

If anyone wants to figure out what muscles they are using to turn, just get into your batting stance (no bat) and go from launch position to a full turn about 20 times in a row. You'll know :)

jbooth

08-16-2007, 05:46 PM

Your right. It's ultimately both feet that give the hips(pelvis) the ability to rotate, because they're both on the ground.

Unlike this guy:

http://www.buyamag.com/graphics/skeletonSK1005L.jpg

You want to see a skeleton move? Where is the middle out, torso mucles force moving this underfed dude?

It's video on my streaming site, so you need windows media player.

http://wms17.streamhoster.com/firstpick/skeletonhipmove.wmv

swingbuilder

08-16-2007, 09:51 PM

was just playing the game.

tom.guerry

08-17-2007, 07:11 AM

Nice to see people using joint motion/kinesiological terms carefully to improve communication.

I would say that there are some sequences that are very important.

This seems somewhat at odds with Jim’s statement above:

“It's silly to sit here and debate which one goes first”

I very much agree with these statements by Jim:

“Make the weight go from the back foot to the front foot and turn while you do it “

“You have to shift and rotate”.

An important part of Yeager’s work is his description of a major sequence flaw - “pushing while blocking”. Based on his ground force research, there should not be ongoing back leg push when the front leg blocking starts. This will produce spinning rather than segmented rotation, too much spin, not enough whip.

What (universally) happens between back leg push and front leg block?

“rubberband winding”. I would say this is when the rotation starts.

As the handle is torqued, the lead leg externally rotates, then the hips start to open which starts the back leg turning. This is before the back leg actively internally rotates to support rotation. If you get out of sequence and “prematurely” internally rotate the back leg, you mess up the coil/load (demonstrated by Zig’s motionanalysis) and when the front foot comes down, you will ”slide” the hips because you are pushing while blocking.

This rubberbandwinding usually happens before the front foot touches so it is not distinguished as a separate phase measured by ground forces as in yeager’s work.

It is still an essential part in an absolute sequence as back leg push continues.

When does “rotation start” ?

What is rotating ?

I think that the start of coil/rubberbandwinding is the “start of rotation”. You have to “rotate into toe touch”.

In a good swing, this is when the synched slotting of the back elbow and flaring of the front knee starts.

The “pushing force” prior to this is primarily from spreading the legs/knees, the largest part of which is due to front leg abduction.

at the same time you “show the front sole” of the stride foot via front foot eversion with a lifting of the lead leg (abduction) as it remains internally rotated.

Then the subsequent rubberbandwinding/coil/separation/torso twist is supported by the back foot plantar flexion and eversion and anti-bugsquishin back heel leads toe type action as the front knee flare starts turning the front foot open (the lead leg externally rotates).

a universal sequence in the mlb pattern that makes it possible to not push while blocking.

wogdoggy

08-17-2007, 10:04 AM

Yes, and you feel it in your inner leg and not in your thigh, because you know that you have to apply force with the leg at an angle, which uses the inner muscles. If you made a lousy swing by pushing in a rear leg extension mode, you would have been sore in your calf, and thigh.

This discussion is good, in the sense that it points out that there is a right way and a wrong way to turn, and different muscles are used in the right way, versus in the wrong way, but why try to learn to turn by thinking of muscles. Why not focus on the movement needed, and how the bones need to move, and then let your brain figure out which of the 50 muscles should fire, and in which order?

You have to shift and rotate, which means that you can't just extend your back leg, you can't just lift the back heel, you can't just spin the leg in the back hip socket. You must drive the hips around with the legs in such a way, that the torso stays centered. Figure that out!:shrug:

You have to shift and rotate, which means that you can't just extend your back leg, you can't just lift the back heel, you can't just spin the leg in the back hip socket. You must drive the hips around with the legs in such a way, that the torso stays centered. Figure that out!

game set match

LClifton

08-17-2007, 10:24 AM

As with many swings this is a work in progress.

This was a swing that was a lean-back, squish the bug approach as evidenced here.
Swing on the right shows some improvement (perhaps little).
http://lclifton.hittingillustrated.com/Marty 12-12 vs 12-14.gif

We moved the tee far out in front to force the weight shift.
I believe it to show a weight shift translating into rotation.

Click the link below to see the tee swing.

http://lclifton.hittingillustrated.com/M 12-28-06a.mpg

(I realize the pattern here starts with a sway) but, refinement (elimination of that sway) is easier, IMO, once they feel the weight shift.

Rotation, again my opinion, is quickened when the tee is moved progressively back (deeper) and hopefully the weight shift is retained. If not we move the tee forward a little / then back again.

Our approach was not to put the tee deep in the zone and rotate.
I have found that weight shift by doing that,, is pretty difficult to attain.
(Just my observation)

However, moving the tee back (in increments) after they learn weight shift and I believe you stand a better chance of retaining the weight shift dovetailing into rotation.

All that to say I agree with these two posts.
but why try to learn to turn by thinking of muscles. Why not focus on the movement needed, and how the bones need to move, and then let your brain figure out which of the 50 muscles should fire, and in which order?

If anyone wants to figure out what muscles they are using to turn, just get into your batting stance (no bat) and go from launch position to a full turn about 20 times in a row. You'll know

Does the swing begin with the hips or the rear heel?
Respectfully asked, Are those the only two choices?

UGDodgersSS#13

08-17-2007, 10:27 AM

[QUOTE=tom.guerry;979586]

An important part of Yeager’s work is his description of a major sequence flaw - “pushing while blocking”. Based on his ground force research, there should not be ongoing back leg push when the front leg blocking starts. This will produce spinning rather than segmented rotation, too much spin, not enough whip.

I don't interpret Yeager's description this way.
Pushing off the back leg/foot occurs before the front leg blocks; the back foot is coming off the ground.
The front leg blocks the MOMENTUM created by the back leg push.

I understand rotation and whip to be two different things, but interrelated.

Rotation is created by translating the forward momentum AROUND the pivot/fulcrum, the front hip, thereby generating torque. Torque is the result of a spin that by definition occurs at a distance from an axis.
The body segments turning about the axis of rotation...the most commonly referenced one being the line connecting the top of the head to the point between the legs under the pelvis...but the TRUE one is the front hip...generate torque. The furthest segment of the body from the axis of rotation, the hands, generate the greatest amount of torque.

In the swing, the whip is the end result of tranferring energy/momentum AFTER linear momentum is converted to rotational forces, from the front hip progressively and sequentially outward to the bat head. Yeager aptly states that this is the Law of Conservation of Momentum. For our purposes, as the momentum is transferred from the larger body segments to the smaller ones and then to the bat the force increases greatly. The bull whip illustrates this well but in the swing there is the additional forces created about the front hip that generate torque.

So...
1. Back leg pushes forward creating linear momentum
2. The front leg blocks then pushes back converting linear momentum into rotational forces about the front hip.

The force of the back leg (segment) push is transferred to the hands (last segment) then to the bat head (whip effect).

MarkL

08-17-2007, 11:06 AM

In the swing, the whip is the end result of tranferring energy/momentum AFTER linear momentum is converted to rotational forces, from the front hip progressively and sequentially outward to the bat head. Yeager aptly states that this is the Law of Conservation of Momentum. For our purposes, as the momentum is transferred from the larger body segments to the smaller ones and then to the bat the force increases greatly. The bull whip illustrates this well but in the swing there is the additional forces created about the front hip that generate torque.

So...
1. Back leg pushes forward creating linear momentum
2. The front leg blocks then pushes back converting linear momentum into rotational forces about the front hip.

The force of the back leg (segment) push is transferred to the hands (last segment) then to the bat head (whip effect).

Dodgers--yeager's info you cited here changed the way I saw hitting.

swingbuilder

08-17-2007, 11:40 AM

Good stuff LC...how ya been? Like your point as well Tom..how you been as well?

I even like Jim's thoughts as well. Good stuff.

wogdoggy

08-17-2007, 05:18 PM

As with many swings this is a work in progress.

This was a swing that was a lean-back, squish the bug approach as evidenced here.
Swing on the right shows some improvement (perhaps little).
http://lclifton.hittingillustrated.com/Marty 12-12 vs 12-14.gif

We moved the tee far out in front to force the weight shift.
I believe it to show a weight shift translating into rotation.

Click the link below to see the tee swing.

http://lclifton.hittingillustrated.com/M 12-28-06a.mpg

(I realize the pattern here starts with a sway) but, refinement (elimination of that sway) is easier, IMO, once they feel the weight shift.

Rotation, again my opinion, is quickened when the tee is moved progressively back (deeper) and hopefully the weight shift is retained. If not we move the tee forward a little / then back again.

Our approach was not to put the tee deep in the zone and rotate.
I have found that weight shift by doing that,, is pretty difficult to attain.
(Just my observation)

However, moving the tee back (in increments) after they learn weight shift and I believe you stand a better chance of retaining the weight shift dovetailing into rotation.

All that to say I agree with these two posts.

Does the swing begin with the hips or the rear heel?
Respectfully asked, Are those the only two choices?

clifton not to get off subject BUT do you like the wrists swiveling like that? How bout just a plain tip by raising the rear elbow and loading that way..???

I remeber a cue gem talked about,,I believe it was something like you want to make contact with your right knee or someting to that effect..i may have mistated him BUT if he thinks about making contact with the right knee he may stop the squish..just a thought????

LClifton

08-17-2007, 05:41 PM

clifton not to get off subject BUT do you like the wrists swiveling like that? How bout just a plain tip by raising the rear elbow and loading that way..???
woggy,
No, I don't. I don't like much about the clips at all.
1. Direction of stride
2. Rotation
3. Weight shift
None of it is very good.

Did you look at the linked clip?
If not. Please take a look.
I like it better and it illustrates, perhaps, some of what is being discussed and shows good improvement.

tom.guerry

08-17-2007, 05:45 PM

How do cats right themselves in midair ?

How do divers do their flips/twists ?

In addition to ground up or middle out considerations, I think you can also think of the two ends synching to guide how the middle/core moves as MANKIN SAYS "rotate the heel/rotate the bathead" as in the Pujols clip for example:

Mankin:
"I find that in many of the swings sent to me for analysis, that the student has ample hip and shoulder rotation. The problem is that upon depleting body rotation, the bat is left dragging far from contact. I use the cue, "rotate the heel, rotate the bat-head," to impress upon the student that as they initiate body rotation, they must also rotate the bat-head in sync with body rotation. --The cue works fine for me. If it does not work for you, then by all means, don’t use it."

Slaught says rotation starts with the slotting action of the back elbow which resembles the start of a rock skipping type throw. This also fits with Mankin's idea of when rotation begins as well as the idea that the upper (back arm throwing action turns bathead) and lower body (front leg synched external rotation starts turning stride foot open often before toe touch) synch with the upper body being in charge of the timing.

The main muscles that produce the synched back arm and front leg external rotation are in the core/torso.

Dixon defined "torso" as mid thigh to neck NOT including shoulders.

wogdoggy

08-17-2007, 05:59 PM

woggy,
No, I don't. I don't like much about the clips at all.
1. Direction of stride
2. Rotation
3. Weight shift
None of it is very good.

Did you look at the linked clip?
If not. Please take a look.
I like it better and it illustrates, perhaps, some of what is being discussed and shows good improvement.

now you are talking man..thats the same swing im teaching my older son,,and when he does it ,,KABOOM..if you can get the bat vertical then tip,,, keeping the hands back like that..almost everything else cures itself..that kid has a awesome swing:clapping

Jake Patterson

08-17-2007, 06:17 PM

How do cats right themselves in midair ?

How do divers do their flips/twists ?

Welcome back Tom.
Apples and oranges. We've had the cat discussion before. Here's a link. http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae411.cfm
Jake

jbooth

08-17-2007, 06:41 PM

Dixon defined "torso" as mid thigh to neck NOT including shoulders.

Which, is NOT the correct definition by dictionary, or anatomical definition.

Miriam-Webster
Torso
3 : the human trunk

Dictionary.com
Torso
1. The human body excluding the head and limbs; trunk

Trunk
1. c - The body of a human or animal excluding the head and limbs.

swingbuilder

08-18-2007, 12:38 AM

Beautiful!

everything else cures itself

The reason you dont want to just raise the elbow is because its an arm move and doesn't mean the hands are active. The elbow movement has to be led by the hands not the arm or elbow.

jbooth

08-18-2007, 08:04 AM

Beautiful!

The reason you dont want to just raise the elbow is because its an arm move and doesn't mean the hands are active. The elbow movement has to be led by the hands not the arm or elbow.

This thread is about hips and heels. Can we not shift it to elbows and hands? Put that in a separate thread to discuss it, please.

tom.guerry

08-18-2007, 08:19 AM

Jim -

i agree that there are lots of inaccuracies in Dixon. We should discuss those sometimes since the PCR school often recommends this as one of their top two recommendations (#2 after sign up at Englishbey.com). Englishbey has included the shoulders as part of the core in his writings in the past.

builder et al -

To get back more to the subject, then, I would say that "Rotation" is CAUSED BY the core

AND

"uses the ground" (Contact/weight shift)

AND

"Uses" a mass attached to the hands conforming to certain specs (AKA "bat")

AND

is controlled by synched actions at the two ends that is dominated by action at the upper end (trust hands/know where bathead is/rotate the front heel-rotate the bathead).

jbooth

08-18-2007, 10:31 AM

Jim -

To get back more to the subject, then, I would say that "Rotation" is CAUSED BY the core

AND

"uses the ground" (Contact/weight shift)

AND

"Uses" a mass attached to the hands conforming to certain specs (AKA "bat")

AND

is controlled by synched actions at the two ends that is dominated by action at the upper end (trust hands/know where bathead is/rotate the front heel-rotate the bathead).

The arms and hands and bat, eventually become part of the rotation, but I don't believe that they have anything to do with initiating it. They might, from a timing aspect, but not from a force aspect.

IMO, your brain has programmed the firing system needed in order to move the bones the way you desire them to move in the swing. It is complex and involves all the muscles from the top of the hip to the toe.

Now, you can conciously put your focus on ONE part of your body at a time, and swing, and the brain will fire all the rest unconciously. You can focus on pushing off your back foot, and the brain will use all the muscles in the legs and pelvic area. You can focus on the pelvic area, and the brain will push off the back foot.

The debate is over how to train the brain to execute the move most effectively. IMO, each individual develops his own "feel" of what to focus on. The move can be done poorly, or it can be done effectively using the same, or different cues.

When I think of just using the core, I don't get an effective turn. And, if I think about just using a drive from the foot, I don't get a good turn. You have to involve everything. The foot, the inner thigh, the pelvic area, all have to get used. But, you can't think about all of them at once, during a swing. Each person has to choose a cue that helps them get it going.

And, of course you have to have a good understand of WHAT the move is designed to accomplish, and WHY you have to move the bones in a specific manner, and then figure out HOW to do it, and then, once you "get it", create a cue that helps you repeat it consistently. It isn't the same for everybody. That's why when you ask several pros about a part of the swing, you often get different answers from each one. They all DO the same fundamental thing, they just feel it, and cue it differently.

MarkL

08-18-2007, 12:13 PM

Now, you can conciously put your focus on ONE part of your body at a time, and swing, and the brain will fire all the rest unconciously. You can focus on pushing off your back foot, and the brain will use all the muscles in the legs and pelvic area. You can focus on the pelvic area, and the brain will push off the back foot.

very much agree..("focus on ONE part of your body")

which is why I dis agree here:

And, if I think about just using a drive from the foot, I don't get a good turn.

I get complete rotation that way. I believe as yeager believes that (optimal) rotation begins after a complete shift (push) to the front leg---any thoughts of turning before the front leg blocks will compromise "optimal" rotation.

from an email I got from yeager:

Mark,

Rotating the hips forward before completing the push (shift) to the front side will establish the spine as the axis of rotation rather than the front leg/front hip joint and front side of the body.

An axis of rotation at the SPINE creates a SHORTER lever arm than an axis of rotation at the left side. The shorter lever arm reduces force. (note-if the hips rotate around the spine so will the shoulders--as the axis moves, but that is another subject).

A well focused push (shift) to the front side will establish the axis at the front (left) hip/leg resulting in the longest lever arm and greatest force production.

The push (shift) must be completed to maximize hip rotation before the involvement of the shoulders. In addition to a less-than-optimal axis, any thoughts of rotating will prematurely involve the shoulders and reduce the stretch-reflex and whip effect (among other undesired effects).

The push (shift) is the driving force behind the the succeeding rotation among the body's segments during the optimal swing.

Take care,

CY

BoardMember

08-18-2007, 12:33 PM

You can focus on pushing off your back foot, and the brain will use all the muscles in the legs and pelvic area. You can focus on the pelvic area, and the brain will push off the back foot.

And therein lies what I said WAY back in the begining of this thread at post #11 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=977108&postcount=11).

the hips are started by ground force reaction from driving off the ball of the back foot, and the knee action is paramount to allowing rotation to be released instead of inhibited, and is completed by lead leg extension.

The back foot starts it. The back foot is used for initial leverage for the knee, leg, glut and pelvic muscles. And the front foot is used for latent leverage to complete the rotation.

It's really as simple as that........But OH NO, you guys had to make it WAY more complicated than it has to be.

It's all about the back foot.:nod:

And to think we could've saved all this server space.:waving

tom.guerry

08-18-2007, 04:46 PM

Mark L , some >>comments<< on the Yeager letter.

Perhaps Chris can chime in if you alert him.

Mark,

Rotating the hips forward before completing the push (shift) to the front side will establish the spine as the axis of rotation rather than the front leg/front hip joint and front side of the body.

>>From a VIDEO (not force plate) perspective, the front leg and hips can be seen to almost always (mlb power hitters) have opened before toe touch as you "rotate into toe touch". Is "opening" the same as "rotate forward"<<

An axis of rotation at the SPINE creates a SHORTER lever arm than an axis of rotation at the left side. The shorter lever arm reduces force. (note-if the hips rotate around the spine so will the shoulders--as the axis moves, but that is another subject).

A well focused push (shift) to the front side will establish the axis at the front (left) hip/leg resulting in the longest lever arm and greatest force production.

>> I think the hips uncock/"project" as the weight goes forward and then to the front foot ("wind rubber band" then drop front heel and tilt shoulders which moves the axis to the front hip even if this rotation/projection starts before toe touch as ruber band winds<<

The push (shift) must be completed to maximize hip rotation before the involvement of the shoulders. In addition to a less-than-optimal axis, any thoughts of rotating will prematurely involve the shoulders and reduce the stretch-reflex and whip effect (among other undesired effects).

>>even though the hips are opening BEFORE toe touch, the shoulders stay back/do not open AND the bat is being torqued on the other side of the shoulders, in other words, the shoulders stay back as the hips open and the bat handle is torqued so that coil/separation is produced.

then the weight flows to the front foot as the shoulders initially TILT more than TURN so that coil is quickly accentuated/increased (analagous to "x-factor stretch in the downswing" in the golf swing). Shoulders resisting being turned with hips is how torso coil/"Cusp" is created for efficient reversal to then fire bathead. First there is the gradual coil of rubberbandwinding, then the quick additional coil of the "cusp" as measured by Zig's motionanalysis for example - Zig's database shopws that the separation/xfactor for the ruberband winding is 15 degrees, then the cusp consists of a quick additional torso stretch/coil of 12 degrees, max xfactor of 27 degrees. Epstein estimates "body torque" of 30 degrees in mlb power hitter produces 30 homers per mlb season.<<

The push (shift) is the driving force behind the the succeeding rotation among the body's segments during the optimal swing.

>> shift enables the hips to fire and the shoulders to resist to create a good cusp for a quick well timed and well directed swing.<<

Take care,

CY

MarkL

08-19-2007, 08:40 PM

shift enables the hips to fire

why do you need to shift to "fire the hips"?

JackB1

08-19-2007, 10:02 PM

How do cats right themselves in midair ?

How do divers do their flips/twists ?

I'm not sure this is apples & apples? I think cats use the gravity forces to help get the movement started to right themsleves.

Divers get a push off with the feet and often the turning or flipping motion begins at the push off. They also use the forces of gravity to aid in their movements.

But is this relevant when talking about the most efficient way to begin turning. Assuming you CAN turn the hips by themselves. Why wouldn't you want to use all the forces at your disposal?...incluing the ground, your feet, thighs, glutes, etc.???

MarkL

08-19-2007, 10:45 PM

i.e. if you are going to "fire" the hips by muscularly turning them, you render the stride pointless--just use the pcr middle-out mantra.

better to use the stride and>>>>> "block"--momentum created by "push" during a good stride. True ground-up linking--block from lead leg sends momentum up to front hip=faster than muscles & more adjustability.

Like I said:
I believe as yeager believes that (optimal) rotation begins after a complete shift (push) to the front leg---any thoughts of turning before the front leg blocks will compromise "optimal" rotation.

tom.guerry:
Epstein estimates "body torque" of 30 degrees in mlb power hitter produces 30 homers per mlb season.<<

ummmm yea based on what? Have you seen the players on his site???

Mark L , some >>comments<< on the Yeager letter.

Perhaps Chris can chime in if you alert him.

he has a website and email at www.DrYeagersBaseball.com

I think the hips uncock/"project" as the weight goes forward and then to the front foot ("wind rubber band" then drop front heel and tilt shoulders which moves the axis to the front hip even if this rotation/projection starts before toe touch as ruber band winds<<

so you fire the hips "uncock" as the "weight goes forward" while the foot is in the air?

LClifton

08-20-2007, 09:52 AM

better to use the stride and>>>>> "block"--momentum created by "push" during a good stride. True ground-up linking--block from lead leg sends momentum up to front hip=faster than muscles & more adjustability.
Very good post.

FanRuth714

08-20-2007, 11:54 AM

Very good post.

agree-push don't spin....

tom.guerry

08-20-2007, 01:19 PM

Mark L -

Good questions. regarding xfactor/x-factor stretch, the point I was making was that Epstein's assertion that 30 degrees of xfactor (he calls it body torque and starts his drills with the torque drill as the foundation of the swing which is the best place to start in my opinion) lines up well with the actual motionanalysis data which provides a different perspective on the swing from Yeager's force plate measures.

A good model of the swing should take both these measures into effect.

Zig's motionanalysis shows that xfactor stretch is associated with the high level mlb swings that he has analyzed in that it is associated with swings that show efficient "speed gains".

Efficient speed gains is a direct measure of the acceleration of a good segmented swing where there is an efficient exectuion of the kinetic chain/momentum transfer so the proximal links (hips/shoulders) are not overrotated, but accelerate and decelerate with good timing so that large gains go to the bathead.

Explanation of "x-factor stretch" which is the key to understanding the significance of a loading "cusp" :

http://www.advancedmotionmeasurement.com/html/XFactorStretch1.htm

notice, even the unskilled golfer has nearly 40 degrees of separation, way more than you want or need in hitting (swing would be too long).

The skilled golfer has a separation of 60 degrees that stretches to 73.5 to form the cusp.

Compare that to high level hitting where there is a separation during rubberbandwinding of 15 degrees that then stretches anothern 12 degrees. This agrees with Epstein's assertion.

Zig describing swing with mention of xfactor.stretch:

http://www.batspeed.com/messageboard/10685.html

Note: Zig says Epstein is slightly inaccurate, by which he means that Epstein tends to focus more on the absolute degree of separation as if more is better vs the dynamics of stretch where what is important is to create a cusp for efficient reversal without too much stretch that would risk lenghtening the swing.

Zig discussing speed gains and their significance as a direct measure of a well segmented whipping type swing:

http://www.batspeed.com/messageboard/10571.html

tom.guerry

08-20-2007, 01:44 PM

Mark L also asked;

"Why do you need to shift to "fire the hips"?

and answered :

".....if you are going to "fire" the hips by muscularly turning them, you render the stride pointless--just use the pcr middle-out mantra.

better to use the stride and>>>>> "block"--momentum created by "push" during a good stride. True ground-up linking--block from lead leg sends momentum up to front hip=faster than muscles & more adjustability."

I certainly agree with this.

Mark then asked regarding my detailed description:

"So you fire the hips "uncock" as the "weight goes forward" while the foot is in the air?"

My answer:

You do not "fire" the hips until the weight can shift/be blocked at the same time.

To prepare for a window of time during which the hips can be fired, the hips have been coked and the body/center of gravity is moving forward, tyypically with the front/stride foot in the air.

For simplicity, let's ignore all the different ways of stride/no-stride (Yeager is excellent at sorting this out) and just assume a vanilla/single stride.

Typically before toe touch, the body is coiled during what Epstein calls rubberband winding or others call "rotating into toe touch". In other words the body has started coiling during the positive move before the front foot touches.

As this happens, the lead leg starts to turn open, then the hips start to project/lose some of their pinch/cock as the handle of the bat is torqued and the shoulders stay back/do not open.

This may or may not be called "rotation", depending on your preference for how you define terms. In any case, the body is creating more separation between hips and shoulders/increasing "body torque"/iuncreasing "xfactor".

Hips have not "fired".

When the front toe touches is the start of a window of time druing which the hips can "fire".

The swing will not work unless this preparation is in place with the body coiling and the center of gravity moving forward and the front shoulder loaded down so it can tilt and the front toe touching so the foot can be used to "block".

All those things must be in place.

At some point, the weight will then get too far forward and the window for firing the hips closes unless you reload (as for very slow offspeed fior example).

Hips "fire" by core muscular action boosted by blocking of weight shift which allows them to get to max turning velocity/max momentum effciciently/consistently/reliably.

At the same time, the shoulders tilt/resist to form a good coiling "cusp" last quick coil/stretch for adequiate efficiency of reversal/adequate bathead quickness.

This simultaneous "drop and tilt" permits good segmentation/speed gains as opposed to lunging or overrotation of proximal links in the chain.

The hips are controlled by the hands becasue the hands control upper arm action which forces lower leg action: when the back elbow slots, the front leg opens.

the hands are alos the locus of control of loading which determines the timing and direction of "weight shift".

While the swing is "hands and hips", the hands are in control of how the hips act because they control the front leg synch and direction/progress of the center of gravity of the body.

So the hips DO start turning open, but do not "fire" before the front toe touches/bears weight.

THEN there kis a window of time when they can "fire".

When they DO fire. the result is additional coil/load which will later reverse to fire a "connected" bathead (center of mass of bat fires out of arc of "circular" handpath).

hands and hips.

Hands control load and bat and legs and direction of weight shift.

Hips fire within these constraints, using the gorund/weight shift/block.