Elbow pain...rest or strengthen? [Archive]

rocKStark

08-12-2007, 10:29 PM

TG Coach

08-12-2007, 10:40 PM

You overextended yourself. You probably threw too hard, too much, too soon. Now you need to rest until the pain disappears.

rocKStark

08-12-2007, 10:44 PM

You overextended yourself. You probably threw too hard, too much, too soon.

yep, most likely.

Now you need to rest until the pain disappears.

k, thx.

Chris O'Leary

08-12-2007, 10:50 PM

Old guy (27) here, coming back to baseball after 4 years after no throwing activity. After throwing a bit my elbow feels like it's going to explode (but is fine a little bit after I stop).

it hurts in the red spot i drew on this elbow picture and the exact same spot on the outside of the elbow.

http://img133.imageshack.us/img133/697/elbow3eg5.jpg

Do I need to rest it or work it out more?

That spot is the Medial Epicondyle.

To have pain there that quickly, your mechanics must not be very good. Were you taught to/Do you try to...

- Show the ball to 2B/CF?
- Always keep your fingers on top of the ball?

merdon133

08-12-2007, 10:59 PM

I had the same pain after pitching BP couple months ago and the doc said to stretch by holding arm straight with hand (palm away) up and pull slightly on your fingers/hand, do the samething fingers down and palm away. There's a nerve there that gets pinched between the bones or something. I'm no doc. but it did help it feel better rather quickly

Charger567

08-12-2007, 11:10 PM

- Always keep your fingers on top of the ball?

I was.. is that a bad thing?

Chris O'Leary

08-12-2007, 11:41 PM

I was.. is that a bad thing?

Yes.

It's one thing that contributed to Chris Carpenter's elbow problems. The other was breaking the hands with the elbows.

I prefer that my guys go thumbs up relatively soon and show the ball to 3B.

Chris O'Leary

08-12-2007, 11:42 PM

merdon133

08-12-2007, 11:57 PM

But it sure felt better afterwards for me. LOL

merdon133

08-13-2007, 12:00 AM

Yes.

It's one thing that contributed to Chris Carpenter's elbow problems. The other was breaking the hands with the elbows.

I prefer that my guys go thumbs up relatively soon and show the ball to 3B.

I always thought you went thumb in then down ? so almost saying take hands straight back? that's the only way I can keep my thumbs up

merdon133

08-13-2007, 12:02 AM

What's your take on the landing foot? toe pointed home or at a 45 degree or so angle?

Jake Patterson

08-13-2007, 07:01 AM

- Show the ball to 2B/CF?
- Always keep your fingers on top of the ball?

Agree with Chris - although I do not profess to be an expert. The biggest cause for this pain in pitchers I have coached seems to be caused by the excessive supination of the lower arm when pointing the ball back to 2B with the fingers on top. I teach ball pointing toward SS -elbow up - lower arm bent at about 45 degrees with fingers at about 1-2 O'clock (for a FB) when looking at it from behind the player.

Xavier&Trin...

08-13-2007, 07:14 AM

Yes.

It's one thing that contributed to Chris Carpenter's elbow problems. The other was breaking the hands with the elbows.

I prefer that my guys go thumbs up relatively soon and show the ball to 3B.

Pawning this statement off as fact is irresponsible. Please preface it with (IMO). Breaking hands with the elbows is a slow non-aggressive move that happens way before any velocity stress is put on the arm. This logic means he could have hurt his arm opening a bag of chips. How does that give you elbow problems?

rocKStark

08-13-2007, 12:02 PM

That spot is the Medial Epicondyle.

To have pain there that quickly, your mechanics must not be very good. Were you taught to/Do you try to...

- Show the ball to 2B/CF?
- Always keep your fingers on top of the ball?

I'm not a pitcher. It hurts when playing catch/long toss (and only then), does that change anything?

Chris O'Leary

08-13-2007, 12:20 PM

I always thought you went thumb in then down ? so almost saying take hands straight back?"

This is what many people teach, but it's not what guys like Greg Maddux actually do.

Chris O'Leary

08-13-2007, 12:21 PM

What's your take on the landing foot? toe pointed home or at a 45 degree or so angle?

Pointed pretty much (e.g. within 15 degrees) at home like this...

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Images/Examples/Example_HipsRotatingBeforeShoulders_SandyKoufax_00 1.jpg

Chris O'Leary

08-13-2007, 12:24 PM

Agree with Chris - although I do not profess to be an expert. The biggest cause for this pain in pitchers I have coached seems to be caused by the excessive supination of the lower arm when pointing the ball back to 2B with the fingers on top.

Not to be a nit-picker, but you know I am so...

Technically the problem is excessive PRONATION at this moment.

This is a problem because if you are pronated at this moment, you have to supinate to get the palm facing the target at the release point (which is bad). At the high cocked position you actually want the forearm to be neutral to supinated so that you have to pronate through the release point. The more supinated you are at the high cocked position, the more you have to pronate (which is good).

Chris O'Leary

08-13-2007, 12:26 PM

Breaking hands with the elbows is a slow non-aggressive move that happens way before any velocity stress is put on the arm...How does that give you elbow problems?

Yes, but it increases how much the PAS upper arm externally rotates (from 90 degrees to 180 or more degrees) as the shoulders start to turn, which is most certainly bad for both the elbow and the shoulder.

Chris O'Leary

08-13-2007, 12:30 PM

First of all Chris is not an expert. Just because you put up photos and study photos for a year or two doesn't make you an expert.

Maybe.

However I'm the only person is the country who, on multiple occasions in the off-season, expressed concerns about Chris Carpenter's mechanics and suggested that signing him to a long-term deal might be a bad idea.

See...

- Opinion On Chris Carpenter's Long-Term Deal (Dec 2006) (http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/ThePitchingMechanic/Archive/ThePitchingMechanic_200612.html)
- Concerns About Chris Carpenter's Mechanics (March 2007) (http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/ThePitchingMechanic/Archive/ThePitchingMechanic_200703.html)

That's one reason why a ML team continues to listen to me.

Chris O'Leary

08-13-2007, 12:32 PM

I'm not a pitcher. It hurts when playing catch/long toss (and only then), does that change anything?

No.

Playing long toss can be as stressful as pitching, because you have to throw hard to throw the ball a long way (which is why long toss can help pitchers).

Also, does your ball move on long throws? Does it cut (move to the glove side) or tail (move to the pitching arm side)?

If your ball cuts, then it could be that you are accidentally throwing a slider.

Xavier&Trin...

08-13-2007, 12:41 PM

Yes, but it increases how much the PAS upper arm externally rotates (from 90 degrees to 180 or more degrees) as the shoulders start to turn, which is most certainly bad for both the elbow and the shoulder.

You are making up mechanical flaws. You have admittedly only studied pitching for 3 years. In 3 years you will laugh at what you thought was accurate today. :crossfingers:

Chris O'Leary

08-13-2007, 12:51 PM

You are making up mechanical flaws.

What I'm referring to falls under the heading of rushing, which is a widely-accepted term.

What happens when a pitcher rushes is that their shoulders start to rotate before their PAS forearm is vertical.

This is very easy to see on video.

Xavier&Trin...

08-13-2007, 01:26 PM

What I'm referring to falls under the heading of rushing, which is a widely-accepted term.

A pitcher seperating with his elbows refers to rushing? Your throwing around terms that you dont understand. Listen, keep studying and attempt to keep an open mind. Labeling yourself an expert is reckless. You cant be an expert in this game with 3 years of study.

You appear passionate about the study of pitching which is a good thing. But your not ready to advise people on pitching. Keep an open mind. Assuming your always right will hinder your learning curve.

TG Coach

08-13-2007, 01:28 PM

Chris ... We know you've studied pitching for three years. What is your playing and coaching background? Please confine your response to these two questions. Keep in mind I've seen a video of you pitching.

EdmondsFan#1

08-13-2007, 01:35 PM

A pitcher seperating with his elbows refers to rushing? Your throwing around terms that you dont understand. Listen, keep studying and attempt to keep an open mind. Labeling yourself an expert is reckless. You cant be an expert in this game with 3 years of study.

You appear passionate about the study of pitching which is a good thing. But your not ready to advise people on pitching. Keep an open mind. Assuming your always right will hinder your learning curve.

Just because he has only studied pitching for 3 years means he's wrong?

He is saying if you don't get to the position he is talking about (Power postion) before your shoulders start to rotate then you are rushing, which is a fact.

And Chris is a part-time scout and he has helped the New York Mets with this years draft, sounds like an 'expert' to me.

Chris O'Leary

08-13-2007, 01:35 PM

A pitcher seperating with his elbows refers to rushing?

Breaking the hands with the elbows can leading to rushing because it lengthens the time it takes for the forearm to get up into the vertical high-cocked position.

It's not a coincidence that BJ Ryan does this and has had elbow problems.

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/ThePitchingMechanic/Images/BJRyan_2006_001.jpg

At a minimum, this is very different than what Greg Maddux does (which is break his hands with his hands).

749. http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Images/ImageSequences/GregMaddux_1997_CF_001/Video_Pitching_GregMaddux_1997NLDSG1_CF_001_0749.j pg

750. http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Images/ImageSequences/GregMaddux_1997_CF_001/Video_Pitching_GregMaddux_1997NLDSG1_CF_001_0750.j pg

751. http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Images/ImageSequences/GregMaddux_1997_CF_001/Video_Pitching_GregMaddux_1997NLDSG1_CF_001_0751.j pg

752. http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Images/ImageSequences/GregMaddux_1997_CF_001/Video_Pitching_GregMaddux_1997NLDSG1_CF_001_0752.j pg

753. http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Images/ImageSequences/GregMaddux_1997_CF_001/Video_Pitching_GregMaddux_1997NLDSG1_CF_001_0753.j pg

754. http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Images/ImageSequences/GregMaddux_1997_CF_001/Video_Pitching_GregMaddux_1997NLDSG1_CF_001_0754.j pg

755. http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Images/ImageSequences/GregMaddux_1997_CF_001/Video_Pitching_GregMaddux_1997NLDSG1_CF_001_0755.j pg

756. http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Images/ImageSequences/GregMaddux_1997_CF_001/Video_Pitching_GregMaddux_1997NLDSG1_CF_001_0756.j pg

Chris O'Leary

08-13-2007, 01:39 PM

Just because he has only studied pitching for 3 years means he's wrong?

Exactly.

I've seen a lot of pro pitching coaches say some really ignorant things (because they've never looked at any slow motion or high speed video).

Chris O'Leary

08-13-2007, 01:44 PM

What is your playing and coaching background?

I played through grade school but couldn't play beyond that due to Labrum problems.

I am currently working with a ML team in a consulting capacity as a regional pitching cross-checker. I helped them shape their approach to selecting pitchers for the 2007 draft.

They find my ideas interesting.

Please confine your response to these two questions. Keep in mind I've seen a video of you pitching.

What you've seen is a video of a guy with Labrum problems try to demonstrate the Marshall arm action.

TG Coach

08-13-2007, 01:53 PM

I played through grade school but couldn't play beyond that due to Labrum problems.

I am currently working with a ML team in a consulting capacity as a regional pitching cross-checker. I helped them shape their approach to selecting pitchers for the 2007 draft.

They find my ideas interesting.

What you've seen is a video of a guy with Labrum problems try to demonstrate the Marshall arm action.

So what you're saying is your baseball background is having played through grade school and coaching preteeners? Is that correct? Then based on some research of other experts, you provide information to a scout on a "he has nothing to lose basis"?

My concern is people come to these kinds of sites for advice. You attempt to come off as a pitching expert. Might it not be better if you reference the experts that provided the basis for your opinion? Especially since one of them is Mike Marshall, who is mostly scorned by the MLB community.

Chris O'Leary

08-13-2007, 01:59 PM

My concern is people come to these kinds of sites for advice. You attempt to come off as a pitching expert. Might it not be better if you reference the experts that provided the basis for your opinion? Especially since one of them is Mike Marshall, who is mostly scorned by the MLB community.

I'd like to stick to discussing ideas, not attacking people.

So please explain exactly what it is with which you disagree.

Or is it just that I'm saying it?

EdmondsFan#1

08-13-2007, 02:07 PM

My concern is people come to these kinds of sites for advice.

Most people that give advice here are either teenagers that don't know what they're talking about, or know how to type, or parents of players that have no coaching experience or just rec. ball coaching experience.

People are just as good if not better off listening to Chris then anyone else on this site. I don't know why you are trying to degrade him.

And I have yet to hear you explain why you think his ideas are wrong...

Xavier&Trin...

08-13-2007, 02:10 PM

Just because he has only studied pitching for 3 years means he's wrong?

He is saying if you don't get to the position he is talking about (Power postion) before your shoulders start to rotate then you are rushing, which is a fact.

And Chris is a part-time scout and he has helped the New York Mets with this years draft, sounds like an 'expert' to me.

Kid, you can believe what you would like. Seperating with the elbows has zero to do with rushing..ZERO.

Xavier&Trin...

08-13-2007, 02:23 PM

Breaking the hands with the elbows can leading to rushing because it lengthens the time it takes for the forearm to get up into the vertical high-cocked position.

This is not true at all. If a pitcher breaks with his elbows, and has always done this then he knows the timing of his delivery. Breaking the hands early has NOTHING to do with rushing.

TG Coach

08-13-2007, 03:38 PM

I'd like to stick to discussing ideas, not attacking people.

So please explain exactly what it is with which you disagree.

Or is it just that I'm saying it?

I'm not attacking you. I'm asked you to validate your background based on how you tend to attempt to come across as a pitching expert with your "I'm a scout" comments. Unless I'm wrong you're not a talent scout. You check mechanics on pitchers based on a theory, for a scout who has nothing to lose by utilizing your unproven methods. My concern is viewers taking your word as gospel. I pitched into college. I often shake my head after reading your posts. And how much of your belief system is based on Marshall?

Jake Patterson

08-13-2007, 04:11 PM

I'm not attacking you. I'm asked you to validate your background based on how you tend to attempt to come across as a pitching expert with your "I'm a scout" comments. Unless I'm wrong you're not a talent scout. You check mechanics on pitchers based on a theory, for a scout who has nothing to lose by utilizing your unproven methods. My concern is viewers taking your word as gospel. I pitched into college. I often shake my head after reading your posts. And how much of your belief system is based on Marshall?
TG what specifically or what in general have you seen that would make you draw the above conclusion about Chris?

Our bat guys are not arborists, but I value their opinions about bats.

Also there are only 2 people on this board that I know of that have actually sat with Dr. Marshall to discuss his views (Me being 1). Implying that what he does is bad has me concerned and I would not want people on this board to take what you say about him as gospel.

CanadianKid

08-13-2007, 04:14 PM

I'm still unclear as to what is meant by breaking with the elbows and breaking with the hands. What do they look like?

TG Coach

08-13-2007, 04:54 PM

Also there are only 2 people on this board that I know of that have actually sat with Dr. Marshall to discuss his views (Me being 1). Implying that what he does is bad has me concerned and I would not want people on this board to take what you say about him as gospel.

Don't take what I say about Marshal as gospel. Take his track record as gospel. Take the mutual scorn Marshall and MLB have for each other as gospel. Take Marshall has stated every MLB and Hall of Fame pitcher throws incorrectly as gospel. I haven't opined on Marshall. I've only stated facts.

merdon133

08-13-2007, 05:02 PM

Pointed pretty much (e.g. within 15 degrees) at home like this...

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Images/Examples/Example_HipsRotatingBeforeShoulders_SandyKoufax_00 1.jpg

Wouldn't that cause your hips to open to soon?

Chris O'Leary

08-13-2007, 05:39 PM

Wouldn't that cause your hips to open to soon?

No.

You stride sideways to the target with the hips closed like this...

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Images/Examples/Example_Striding_Sideways_KennyRogers_001.jpg

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/ThePitchingMechanic/Images/CurtSchilling_2006_001.jpg

...and then point the toe at the target just before the GS foot lands.

Some people (e.g. Dick Mills) think or teach that the hips open after the GS foot lands, which is wrong.

Chris O'Leary

08-13-2007, 05:42 PM

Seperating with the elbows has zero to do with rushing..ZERO.

Why would you teach pitchers to do something that greats like...

- Greg Maddux
- Randy Johnson
- Tom Glavine
- Nolan Ryan

...do not do?

I'll stick with teaching guys ideas that have withstood the test of time, not things that you frequently see in guys with arm problems.

Chris O'Leary

08-13-2007, 06:09 PM

I'm still unclear as to what is meant by breaking with the elbows and breaking with the hands. What do they look like?

When you break the hands with the elbows, the elbows end up at or above the level of the shoulders like this...

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Images/Examples/Example_ElbowsAboveAndBehindShoulders_MarkPrior_00 2.jpg

If you break the hands with the hands ala Greg Maddux, David Wells, Randy Johnson and others, the elbows always stay below the level of the shoulders.

In the frames of Maddux that I posted above, notice that his elbows never get above the level of his shoulders and never get much higher than after he breaks his hands.

rocKStark

08-13-2007, 06:09 PM

I'm still unclear as to what is meant by breaking with the elbows and breaking with the hands. What do they look like?

Definitely. No clue what anybody is talking about. Pictures with little Madden scribbles please, maybe a smiley face or two.

I have a game tomorrow, I'll get some video to upload cause "Breaking with" "PAS" and all kinds of jargon is a bit much to someone who's encountering this for the first time. It'd be faster for me to play tomorrow, get video, upload it, and post then it would be to use search and do all the prerequisite work (it took me 15 minutes to google "power position" before giving up).

rocKStark

08-13-2007, 06:11 PM

When you break the hands with the elbows, the elbows end up at or above the level of the shoulders like this...

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Images/Examples/Example_ElbowsAboveAndBehindShoulders_MarkPrior_00 2.jpg

If you break the hands with the hands ala Greg Maddux, David Wells, Randy Johnson and others, the elbows always stay below the level of the shoulders.

Oh M versus W. No, no way I have a M.

Chris O'Leary

08-13-2007, 06:11 PM

If a pitcher breaks with his elbows, and has always done this then he knows the timing of his delivery. Breaking the hands early has NOTHING to do with rushing.

Or maybe he could end up with a problem of habitual rushing ala...

- Kerry Wood
- Chris Carpenter
- Mark Prior
- Anthony Reyes
- Robb Nen

Chris O'Leary

08-13-2007, 06:14 PM

I often shake my head after reading your posts.

With what do you disagree?

And how much of your belief system is based on Marshall?

Maybe 30 to 50%.

I buy his stuff on pronation and conditioning but not his arm action or stride stuff.

EdmondsFan#1

08-13-2007, 06:34 PM

took me 15 minutes to google "power position" before giving up

Scroll up, see that picture of Sandy Koufax? That's the power position. Where the foot has just been planted and the pitching arm is vertical (the arm should make an L with fingers towards 3b if you're a righty).

metrotheme

08-13-2007, 07:26 PM

I've experienced similar elbow problems this season and it has made me almost re-educate my body on taking the ball out and pointing it towards 3rd and not cocking the wrist so much to point it towards second.

I also think that this problem can be aggravated by excessive computer usage. Being a teacher I had a lot of time off this summer and spent a fair amount on the computer which I do not think helps the elbow (my computer set up isn't the best ergonomically).

I think we're going to see more elbow problems from kids with prolonged computer usage.

merdon133

08-13-2007, 07:38 PM

No.

You stride sideways to the target with the hips closed like this...

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Images/Examples/Example_Striding_Sideways_KennyRogers_001.jpg

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/ThePitchingMechanic/Images/CurtSchilling_2006_001.jpg

...and then point the toe at the target just before the GS foot lands.

Some people (e.g. Dick Mills) think or teach that the hips open after the GS foot lands, which is wrong.

Chris thanks! I was teaching to land with it slightly closed, I guess that what you don't want is them starting with the toe pointed at home to start with

TG Coach

08-13-2007, 07:56 PM

No.

You stride sideways to the target with the hips closed like this...

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Images/Examples/Example_Striding_Sideways_KennyRogers_001.jpg

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/ThePitchingMechanic/Images/CurtSchilling_2006_001.jpg

...and then point the toe at the target just before the GS foot lands.

Some people (e.g. Dick Mills) think or teach that the hips open after the GS foot lands, which is wrong.

Chris ... Please define who you are. Please define who Dick Mills is. How many of your proteges are pitching in MLB versus Dick Mills? Then please explain why he is wrong and where you came up with the idea he is wrong.

Jake Patterson

08-13-2007, 07:58 PM

I've only stated facts.

Only about performance, or lack thereof at the Major League level - it speaks nothing to his claims about the prevention of injury. Few have dismissed his studies, thoughts or opinions about preventing injury.

But back to the original question:
"What specifically or what in general have you seen that would make you draw the above conclusion about Chris?"

I have always found his information good.

Jake Patterson

08-13-2007, 08:02 PM

Chris ... Please define who you are. Please define who Dick Mills is. How many of your proteges are pitching in MLB versus Dick Mills? Then please explain why he is wrong and where you came up with the idea he is wrong.

This same argument could be used with the likes of Walt Hriniak. Walt has MANY notches on his MLB belt, but few today would send their students to him.

Xavier&Trin...

08-13-2007, 08:37 PM

Why would you teach pitchers to do something that greats like...

- Greg Maddux
- Randy Johnson
- Tom Glavine
- Nolan Ryan

...do not do?

I'll stick with teaching guys ideas that have withstood the test of time, not things that you frequently see in guys with arm problems.

Again, breaking with the elbows has zero to do with rushing. It is not a flaw but a style. If a pitcher makes this move do you take it away from him and force him to clone Maddux.?

Now, does Maddux have better mechanics then BJ Ryan---Yes.

rocKStark

08-13-2007, 10:10 PM

Only about performance, or lack thereof at the Major League level - it speaks nothing to his claims about the prevention of injury. Few have dismissed his studies, thoughts or opinions about preventing injury.

But back to the original question:
"What specifically or what in general have you seen that would make you draw the above conclusion about Chris?"

I have always found his information good.

No, the original question was is my elbow going to fall off.

TG Coach

08-13-2007, 10:18 PM

Only about performance, or lack thereof at the Major League level - it speaks nothing to his claims about the prevention of injury. Few have dismissed his studies, thoughts or opinions about preventing injury.

I could help pitchers miniumize risk of injury by telling them to lob the ball to the plate, but it won't optimize their potential as pitchers. This is as far as I'd like to take any Marshall conversation. It's been done to death.

Xavier&Trin...

08-13-2007, 10:48 PM

bronxkid

08-14-2007, 06:08 AM

However I'm the only person is the country who, on multiple occasions in the off-season, expressed concerns about Chris Carpenter's mechanics and suggested that signing him to a long-term deal might be a bad idea.

See...

- Opinion On Chris Carpenter's Long-Term Deal (Dec 2006) (http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/ThePitchingMechanic/Archive/ThePitchingMechanic_200612.html)
- Concerns About Chris Carpenter's Mechanics (March 2007) (http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/ThePitchingMechanic/Archive/ThePitchingMechanic_200703.html)

That's one reason why a ML team continues to listen to me.

Every pitcher in the Major Leagues runs the risk of injury when they toe the mound. Your predictions are similar to the "Horoscope" in your local paper. I also have a friend who is a local scout. I talk to him about swing mechanics, does that make me an expert? No! I just feel bad for young kids and also Dads who don't know better when they run across you and you give them info that will limit their kids or perhaps you scare them off.

With that being said also give credit to people when it is rightfully needed. You seem to credit all the people who haven't ran you off a board or who haven't seen the light. Didn't you get your moderator label removed from letstalkpitching.com ??? I wonder why????

I admire your thoughts but sometimes the truth need to be thrown out there once in a while. :crazy

Jake Patterson

08-14-2007, 07:46 AM

I could help pitchers miniumize risk of injury by telling them to lob the ball to the plate, but it won't optimize their potential as pitchers. This is as far as I'd like to take any Marshall conversation. It's been done to death.

Except Marshall has students that can "lob" the ball at 90MPH...

Look I am not defending Mike Marshall. I think others will takes what he has discovered and do a better job at mainstreaming a variation of his techniques. The problem I have - once again- is the mis-characterization of who he is and what he has accomplished based on your opinion and second hand information.

Jake Patterson

08-14-2007, 07:51 AM

No, the original question was is my elbow going to fall off.

You are so right...

There is information here on this thread that should help you. Unfortunately these threads get way off track and it becomes difficult to keep them on task. In my experience pain in that location is a result of bad mechanics and we would need to see you throw in order to help that. As you can see there are varying positions with regards to cause. If you want to send a clip I can get it to someone who I feel can help.

Chris O'Leary

08-14-2007, 10:05 AM

Chris ... Please define who you are. Please define who Dick Mills is. How many of your proteges are pitching in MLB versus Dick Mills? Then please explain why he is wrong and where you came up with the idea he is wrong.

He has stated/taught that the hips stay closed into foot plant and then open up after the Glove Side foot plants.

This is simply wrong, not to mention not physically possible.

Chris O'Leary

08-14-2007, 10:09 AM

Every pitcher in the Major Leagues runs the risk of injury when they toe the mound. Your predictions are similar to the "Horoscope" in your local paper. I also have a friend who is a local scout. I talk to him about swing mechanics, does that make me an expert? No! I just feel bad for young kids and also Dads who don't know better when they run across you and you give them info that will limit their kids or perhaps you scare them off.

So you're saying I'm going to damage people by teaching them to pitch like...

- Greg Maddux
- Tom Glavine
- Randy Johnson
- Tom Seaver
- Roy Oswalt
- Dan Haren

With that being said also give credit to people when it is rightfully needed. You seem to credit all the people who haven't ran you off a board or who haven't seen the light.

I can't reply to this because it doesn't make any sense.

Didn't you get your moderator label removed from letstalkpitching.com ??? I wonder why????

I had my Moderator label removed and replaced with an Administrator label.

You really need to get your facts straight.

rocKStark

08-14-2007, 12:07 PM

You are so right...

There is information here on this thread that should help you. Unfortunately these threads get way off track and it becomes difficult to keep them on task. In my experience pain in that location is a result of bad mechanics and we would need to see you throw in order to help that. As you can see there are varying positions with regards to cause. If you want to send a clip I can get it to someone who I feel can help.

Well the only thing I gathered from the thread was it may be about mechanics and chris was suggesting I may have a M vs a W, which I don't. That would kill me.

Is there anything else I missed? I have a game tonight and I will be uploading photos and videos...assuming my arm doesn't fall off, but is there anything else I should look out for tonight?

Chris O'Leary

08-14-2007, 01:06 PM

Well the only thing I gathered from the thread was it may be about mechanics and chris was suggesting I may have a M vs a W, which I don't. That would kill me.

Is there anything else I missed? I have a game tonight and I will be uploading photos and videos...assuming my arm doesn't fall off, but is there anything else I should look out for tonight?

As I said before, were you taught to/Do you try to...

- Show the ball to 2B/CF?
- Always keep your fingers on top of the ball?
- Break your hands with your elbows?

Chris O'Leary

08-14-2007, 01:35 PM

So you're saying I'm going to damage people by teaching them to pitch like...

- Greg Maddux
- Tom Glavine
- Randy Johnson
- Tom Seaver
- Roy Oswalt
- Dan Haren

I never said that there you go twisting words again. You are saying that I am not. Please get your facts straight.:blah:

You said...

I just feel bad for young kids and also Dads who don't know better when they run across you and you give them info that will limit their kids or perhaps you scare them off.

I would like to know why you said that. How exactly am I going to "limit" them by teaching them to pitch like HOFers?

rocKStark

08-14-2007, 01:40 PM

As I said before, were you taught to/Do you try to...

- Show the ball to 2B/CF?

*shrugs* My palm is parallel with my shoulders, as in this pic:

http://chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Images/Examples/Example_HipsRotatingBeforeShoulders_CaseyFossum_00 1.jpg

- Always keep your fingers on top of the ball?

Yes, I try. Normally my ball doesn't break one way or another. I try to throw it how I assumed a 4 seam fast ball is thrown. My two fingers on top until release then I pronate. I try to throw the ball so it's rotating on an axis like parallel to the ground like:

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/1/14/Four_Seam_Fastball_3.jpg

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/43/roationhh7.jpg

Don't know if that's right or not but that's what I do.

- Break your hands with your elbows?

not sure what that means, but after my torso goes from the 1st picture i posted to the next step the first thing that I move is Hips, then Elbow, then forarm/hand at a angle like this pic of Soup.

http://chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Images/Examples/Example_ElbowsBelowShoulders_JeffSuppan_2007_014.j pg

Is that the info you needed?