PDA

View Full Version : Bonds VS. Mantle. Who is the greater disappointment?


yankeesr#1
08-12-2007, 06:46 PM
Thursday, August 9, 2007
Bonds vs. Mantle: Who is the greater disappointment?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Eric Neel
Page 2

Let me ask you a question: As a baseball fan with a sense of history and an appreciation for the game played at the highest level, which of the following scenarios disappoints you more?
1. Barry Bonds using something to dramatically improve his already-high level of performance and to substantially prolong his baseball career.

Or …

2. Mickey Mantle using something that dramatically lowered his once-high level of performance and substantially shortened his baseball career.

Despite his claim to have never knowingly taken steroids, Bonds, thanks in part to the body of evidence presented in Mark Fainaru-Wada and Lance Williams' "Game of Shadows," is widely believed to have used performance-enhancing drugs beginning in or around the 2000 season.

From the beginning of that season until the end of the 2004 season (he was injured in 2005 and appeared in only 14 games), from ages 35-39, he hit 258 home runs, amassed 543 RBIs, posted a slugging percentage of .782 over 2,132 at-bats, and won four National League MVP awards.

Mantle, who was further limited by chronic leg injuries, by his own admission began drinking alcohol heavily early in his career. In his 1986 autobiography, "The Mick," he said he "got a bellyful starting in 1952," and after being diagnosed with liver cancer in 1994, he urged fans: "don't be like me."

At age 32, in 1964, Mantle posted a .303/.423/.591 line, including 35 home runs and 111 RBIs, and finished second in American League MVP balloting. In the last four years of his career, from ages 33-36, he averaged a .256/.386/.455 line, 21 HRs and 53 RBIs over 1,569 at-bats, including a career-closing 1968 season in which he hit .237 and managed a career-low (excluding 1963, in which he played in just 65 games, and 1951, in which he played in 96) 18 home runs.

Which hurts more?

Witnessing what otherwise might never have happened?

Or longing for what might have been?

I realize the comparison is sacrilege.

Bonds is considered smug and distant, and is reviled. Mantle was thought of as folksy and charming, and was beloved. Bonds is alleged to have consciously engineered and manipulated his body against the ravages of time, and Mantle is remembered as a tragic hero cut down by the fates in his prime.

But is the comparison altogether inapt?

If Fainaru-Wada and Williams have it right, and if Mantle is to be taken at his word, didn't each man tweak the course of history? Didn't they both, more or less consciously, cheat baseball fans, in the one case by making them question what they see with their own eyes and in the other by denying them the opportunity to see great talent fully realized?

The two things feel different, no doubt …

Steroids are creepy, alien, illicit doorways to a frightening cyborg future. We want no part of them. They make us long for purity and certainty. They're a threat not only to baseball records we cherish but to our very sense of self, to our most basic understanding of what we mean by "human being" and what we understand to be the limits of human accomplishment.

Alcohol is familiar. Many of us love its cozy burn in the throat and the courageous flow it inspires on the tongue. In moderation it might facilitate connection and intimacy, make us feel more human. In excess, as an addiction, it renders us powerless and pitiable, and so defines the limits of human frailty.

We condemn Bonds.

Mantle inspires pathos and reverence.

But I'm not asking which man is more deserving of either blame or empathy, and I'm not asking who you like more. In fact, it's easy for me to see how each of them (if Bonds indeed used performance enhancers, and if Mantle abused alcohol to the extent he described later in his life) could be thought of as someone acting out of a profoundly unappealing hubris. It is equally easy for me to see how each of them could be thought of as someone acting out of a deep, nearly unquenchable, very sympathetic insecurity and desire for attention.

What I'm asking is, which is more disappointing?

When I watched Bonds hit home runs 755 and 756 this past week, watched the almost technically perfect swing, watched the racing pace and arc of the ball on its way over the wall, I knew the moment was complicated and potentially compromised.

And I wish, as most fans do, that I could say with certainty that each of his home runs has been hit without the aid of any chemical substance stronger than the caffeine in a cup of coffee.

But even given all the baggage, I'm not altogether sorry to have seen them. I cannot claim I experienced no rush at the pop of the bat. I cannot say there was absolutely no thrill in watching something so undeniably powerful and dramatic. The moment is disappointing. But it is a moment. It is happening. Right here, right now. And I am drawn to it.

What I'm asking is, which is more disappointing?

When I think about Mantle, when I look at the film clips (I confess I'm too young to have seen him play in person), when I marvel at the jaunty, muscular quickness, when I look at the black ink on the pages of baseball-reference.com, when I listen to Bob Costas and Billy Crystal wax poetic about their boyhood idol, I know his career is a glorious thing, with mythic peaks and tall-tale triumphs (18 World Series home runs and 40 World Series RBIs).

And I recognize, as most fans do, that he is one of the greatest players to ever play the game, and all the greater for how well he performed on two bum legs, and with his liver beating a saturated retreat most every day of his playing life.

But even given all his seemingly insouciant genius, his undeniably sympathetic circumstance (he was convinced he would die young, as his father and two uncles had before him), and all the romance they inspire, I've never been altogether satisfied with what there is of Mickey Mantle the baseball player. I can't say I look on the record without wanting more, without my every celebratory impulse married to one of wondering, and wishing things were different.

So my answer to the question with which I began is … God save me …



Scenario No. 2 actually disappoints me more as a baseball fan than No. 1 -- the situation we now find ourselves in, the reality we're wringing our hands over as we speak.
Commissioner Selig and high priests Ripken and Gwynn may exile me from the kingdom of baseball for saying so, but I'll take the spectacle of Bonds still pumping his bat barrel once or twice before unloading, and still raking the ball all over the yard at age 43, ambivalence, suspicion and all, over a glass of Mick half-empty.

I'll take the cold comfort of knowing that if Bonds used, he wasn't the only one who used (not by a long shot), and he almost certainly faced pitchers who used as well. I'll take it if it comes with him going heads-up with Greg Maddux when he's sitting on 754, or even if it just comes with the visceral jolt I got watching exactly how far 756 flew on Tuesday night, before I'll try to linger with the hollow feeling of Mantle's steep decline.

And (and this is the hardest one to say out loud), by a narrow margin, give me the guy maybe doctoring his biochemistry in an attempt to stay around longer, do more, fend off the kids with greater fervor, even reach for some outlandish, unprecedented greatness, over the guy who literally drowns his talent over time.

Every time I think of how things ended for Mantle, of the extent to which he cheated himself and his fans down the stretch, the extent to which he was ultimately cheated by his own fears and worries, it just makes me sad, makes me want to turn away.

I don't like what Bonds is accused of doing. I'm not comfortable with it. I don't relish explaining what his record does or doesn't mean to my daughter when she's old enough to ask. But there is in the brand of cheating of which he is accused some weird, ornery, rage-against-the-dying-of-the-light anger I find compelling, utterly comprehensible (remember Mike Schmidt saying he would have used steroids if they'd been available; who wouldn't want the edge?), and deeply watchable.

I can't say I find it laudable.

But it's not the most disappointing thing I can imagine.

Source-Espn.com

Old Sweater
08-12-2007, 08:12 PM
Neither one!

Dodgerfan1
08-13-2007, 02:02 AM
This is an interesting dichotomy. In our society, the person who gets rich by unscrupulous means becomes far more reviled than the person who has college degrees under both arms yet never gets around to using them to his advantage, thus is a chronic underachiever his entire life. Both can be the exact same guy, but 'underachiever' gets the lion's share of society's love over 'rich guy' just because most of us can commiserate with him to a greater extent.

Rich guy, while detested and vilified by 'the little guy', is nonetheless looked upon as a success. Someone who got more out of life than most, but is borne a grudge by those whose scruples and morals are intact. While he enjoys the high life in his prime, his detractors will judge him for the nefarious methods he employed in obtaining 'greatness', and if illegal means have been used in order to achieve his success, he will likely be brought down at some time later in life, either through legal means or the court of public opinion. 'Rich guy' is Bonds.

The underachiever, while perhaps viewed by the majority of society as a kindred spirit, is nonetheless a disappointment to his friends and family, not to mention himself. He is portrayed, quite frequently in the popular culture, as a part of the downtrodden; someone to be pitied and, at the same time, almost revered. He is generally far more likable than 'rich guy' by the very nature of his circumstances. Using the comparison put forth by yankeesr#1, 'underachiever' is Mantle.

Right now, Barry Bonds is being lauded by some as the greatest home run hitter of all time. He is hailed as a success, despite his unscrupulous means in attaining that lofty perch. Even people such as myself who dislike the man for the methods he employed in reaching that goal will usually surrender a certain amount of grudging admiration for his having reached it at all, however respect is not an option. He has climbed atop the backs of others in order to grab the brass ring, and has done so with contempt for those who dare question his means. He has outdone even those who would employ the same means to achieve that ring. He is number one among the other 'rich guys'.

Mickey Mantle is among the first names mentioned when discussing 'underachiever'. Even though his career was particularly illustrious, we shake our heads at what could have been. A hallowed position among the gods in the Valhalla of Baseball degenerated into merely a Hall of Fame career. How great could this underachiever have been? We'll never know. For reasons known only to himself, he chose not to pursue the promise of the degrees he held under both arms. He chose not to lust after the prize that was certainly within his reach and, instead, chose a path of lesser greatness. A path that most ballplayers would give anything to follow yet, for a man of Mantle's gifts, it led to something akin to mediocrity. He is held in much higher esteem by society's reckoning than 'rich guy'. Instead of cheating the rest of us, he cheated himself.

Hmmm. I have no dog in this hunt. As I never wish to be pitied by anyone in my life, I also don't dish out pity easily. I don't pity people like Mantle. Sympathy, that's another issue. I can sympathize with a man who has unknowingly chosen that path. There's something sympathetic in a person like that that most people seem to gravitate to and embrace. People like Bonds, however, are neither pitiable nor sympathetic. They are simply poor souls who have sold their souls to the devil in order to attain greatness and are now reaping what they have sown.

Sorry for the lengthy post, but this subject fascinates me. Excellent thread, yankeesr#1.

Wade8813
08-13-2007, 01:30 PM
Wow. Great post yankeesr#1, and a great reply Dodgerfan1.

Our society (and maybe humans as a whole) seem predisposed to prefer what Mantle did. We see him as someone who made a poor choice, and paid for it. Whereas we see Bonds as deliberately and methodically breaking the rules to get an unfair advantage, and at least to some extent, getting away with it.

Also, for whatever reason, our society deems it perfectly acceptable to get drunk, as long as you don't drink and drive, and as long as you don't get violent toward someone because of the drinking. In fact, going out and getting wasted is glamorized, and is sometimes considered a rite of passage when you turn 21.

There are thousands of people who have squandered far more than Mantle ever did, all because of alcohol. People who destroy their lives, and also the lives of their spouse and their children.

Bonds got an unfair advantage in a game. He earned more money because of it, and he gets mentioned in a record book. Even if he doesn't deserve the money, the Giants owners are perfectly happy to have given it to him. And while the record is probably tainted, it's not really that big a deal in the grand scheme of things.

I wish Mantle had done more, but he still accomplished so much. And I'm fairly sure he didn't ruin anyone else's life either.

Between Bonds and Mantle, I'm a bit disappointed in both, but neither is a big deal. But the people who ruin others' lives, that is far, far worse.

Ytown Tribe fan
08-13-2007, 01:41 PM
Neither.

Mantle played hard and was often hurt. His knee was especially wrecked after a game in Cleveland. That had nothing to do with his off-field antics.

He lived hard and played hard because he was convinced that he would die young. That made him driven to succeed where another player might've settled for mediocrity. How can anyone consider that super-achievement a disappointment?

Barry has also been driven to succeed and has done so wildly. He holds several big league records in significant categories.

Also, as shown by the Win Shares charts I posted in the Stats forum, Barry was just as dominant in the '90s (his "clean" decade), as he has been since.

How to explain his dominance in baseball before 1999, other than to acknowledge that he was, is, and has always been a great player?

How can anyone consider that a disappointment?