DiMaggio is Now Number One

[LouGehrig]

The 56-game streak is clearly the greatest, most glamorous record.

http://major-league-baseball.suite101.com/article.cfm/dimaggio_is_now_number_one

[TheKingofKings]

The "now" is inappropriate, his record has always been the most prestigious and difficult to break.

[ssbguyincognito]

I don't know if it's the most difficult to break.

I think Cy Young's 511 career wins is the most difficult to break.

Then again, that number is so high it's almost stupid. It's more a reflection of a weaker, deadball era, where the game was in its infancy, than of Cy's talent. I think that's what makes Joe's record more special -- because it's not a reflection of the times, but of his own talent. And I do think it can be broken.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

I don't know if it's the most difficult to break.

I think Cy Young's 511 career wins is the most difficult to break.

Then again, that number is so high it's almost stupid. It's more a reflection of a weaker, deadball era, where the game was in its infancy, than of Cy's talent. I think that's what makes Joe's record more special -- because it's not a reflection of the times, but of his own talent. And I do think it can be broken.
Oh come on now. To me the streak is overrated. When I think of The Yankee Clipper I almost never think of the streak. Young has almost 100 more wins than the next guy, Walter Johnson. Career records are always more difficult and more impressive than single season records. And you didn't think Joe D may have received a few close calls on hits that might have been errors? Joe had seven 1-for-5 games and sixteen 1-for-4 games.

[Dodgerfan1]

I, too, have always thought hitting streaks are vastly overrated. Almost like most consecutive errorless games, although hitting streaks are far more glamorous and thus, overrated.

Hitters get hot once in a while, and over a period of time, they accumulate hits in bunches. I'm sure we've all seen hitting streaks reach 30+ games where the hitter's BA isn't even .300 during that time. DiMaggio was truly on a tear, though, as his average was over .400 during that time, if I remember correctly, but it's well documented that there were at least a couple of extremely controversial 'hits' that were given to DiMaggio by official scorers that kept the streak alive the deeper into it he got.

I'm not trying to diminish Joe's accomplishment at all. Indeed, I think it was an incredible feat to keep it going that long. It's just hitting streaks in particular that I find overrated. Theoretically, a hitter can go 1-4 every game and have a 50-game hitting streak with a .250 average. Still, Joe's record has never been broken and may never be. Who knows? I'm aware there are many who totally disagree with me, but that's baseball!

[LouGehrig]

The "now" is inappropriate, his record has always been the most prestigious and difficult to break.

You won't get an argument from me.

[natsnsoxfan]

Yeah, to hell with the single season batting average record of .426, or even .440 if you want to go back past 1900.

[Brian McKenna]

:crazy Yeah, to hell with the single season batting average record of .426, or even .440 if you want to go back past 1900.

Yeah and to hell with the game outside NY - some don't seem to think it exists.

I say transfer all this stuff to the Yankees forum so they can slap themselves on the back all day without annoying others.

[Erik Bedard]

IMO, there's one record that rarely gets talked enough about as unbreakable: Yaz's .301 BA in 1968. What are the chances that someone will ever lead the league with a lower one?

DiMag's streak is vastly overrated. If, say, Wee Willie Keeler had hit in 58 games back in 1897, would people still say that the record was the greatest ever? I doubt it.

[PopTop]

I'm sure we've all seen hitting streaks reach 30+ games where the hitter's BA isn't even .300 during that time.No, actually I can't recall one. Just went back and checked the 30+ game hitting streaks that I can recall from the last 30+ years, and came up with 19 of them. Lowest during such a streak I could find was Jerome Walton and Benito Santiago each hitting .338 (46-for-136, if I did my math right). In fact, of the 19 I came up with, 11 of them hit at least .400 during their streaks.



LeFlore, Ron 1976
Brett, George 1980
Walton, Jerome 1989
Alomar, Sandy Jr 1997
Garciaparra, Nomar 1997
Davis, Eric 1998
Gonzalez, Luis 1999
Pujols, Albert 2003
Taveras, Willy 2006
Davis, Willie 1969
Carty, Rico 1970
Landreaux, Ken 1980
Guerrero, Vladimir 1999
Santiago, Benito 1987
Castillo, Luis 2002
Utley, Chase 2006
Molitor, Paul 1987
Rollins, Jimmy 2005-06
Rose, Pete 1978

[RuthMayBond]

The 56-game streak is clearly the greatest, most glamorous record.

http://major-league-baseball.suite101.com/article.cfm/dimaggio_is_now_number_oneThere are plenty other records that have not been approached near as closely :rolleyes:

[SHOELESSJOE3]

I, too, have always thought hitting streaks are vastly overrated. Almost like most consecutive errorless games, although hitting streaks are far more glamorous and thus, overrated.

Hitters get hot once in a while, and over a period of time, they accumulate hits in bunches. I'm sure we've all seen hitting streaks reach 30+ games where the hitter's BA isn't even .300 during that time. DiMaggio was truly on a tear, though, as his average was over .400 during that time, if I remember correctly, but it's well documented that there were at least a couple of extremely controversial 'hits' that were given to DiMaggio by official scorers that kept the streak alive the deeper into it he got. I'm not trying to diminish Joe's accomplishment at all. Indeed, I think it was an incredible feat to keep it going that long. It's just hitting streaks in particular that I find overrated. Theoretically, a hitter can go 1-4 every game and have a 50-game hitting streak with a .250 average. Still, Joe's record has never been broken and may never be. Who knows? I'm aware there are many who totally disagree with me, but that's baseball!



Documented by who, some ones opinion. I would bet that there were some close calls, bloops and some questionable calls on most of the high number streaks.

Joe was not alone with a break, but he's the one that managed the most hits. He had a few things going for him. For one a far better hitter than the average player, one of the highst career batting averages for a RH hitter from 1930 to the present.

He very seldom struck out much and never took many walks. Recipe for increasing the chances of extending the streak, low walks and making lots of contact. During the 56 games only 5 or 6 strikeouts and only 13 for the entire season.


He breaks off at 56 and then hits for 16 more consecutive games. A base hit in 72 of 73 games, the guy was on fire. A coincidence that he hit for 61 in the minors, just chance that the same hitter hit for 56 or more consecutive games in the minors and MLB.

Is it just possible that his style and ability lent something to those streaks, great hitter, low walk rate giving him more at bats per game and low, very low strikeouts.

You wan't to call it overrated thats fine but to say he got breaks or some luck along the way, not buying that. No one has a monopoly on breaks or close calls.

[natsnsoxfan]

No one has a monopoly on breaks or close calls.

The Yankees do.

[Evangelion]

Didn't Ted Williams hit for a higher average than DiMaggio during the span of the hitting streak?

[sturg1dj]

yes Ted did hit for a higher average and yes there were some blatant errors made into hits for ole Joltin' Joe.

IMO hitting streaks are overrated. I wouldn't doubt that this is the most famous record now but I am more impressed by Hershiser's consecutive scoreless streak than I am of DiMaggio's hitting streak.

[Matt1901]

Didn't Ted Williams hit for a higher average than DiMaggio during the span of the hitting streak?Yes, he did. I don't recall The Splendid Splinters' exact average during DiMaggio's streak (May 15 - July 16, 1941,) but I think it was .412. DiMaggio batted .408 during his streak and .357 on the season. That was good for third in the American League to Cecil Travis (.359) and Ted Williams (.406.)

Personally, I think Cy Youngs 511 Career Wins is a superior record. The 56-game hitting streak is remarkable, but I think it is overrated. I think there might be another 300 game winner, but I highly doubt Clemens or Maddux will get to 400 wins, and I would bet anything that no one will ever get to 500 wins in baseball.

[natsnsoxfan]

If I remember correctly Dimaggio won the MVP that year over Williams even though Williams did hit .406.

Dimaggio in 1941 - .357BA/.440OBP/.643SLG/30HR/125RBI

Williams in 1941 - .406BA/.553OBP/.735SLG/37HR/120RBI

Williams finished 2nd in the MVP voting despite the significantly better stats in everything but RBI. Dimaggio won it because of the streak and because he was a Yankee.

[sharrock]

I'll take the consecutive scoreless innings streak over the hitting streak every day.

[NYMets523]

Orel Hershiser's 59 scoreless inning streak is a far greater record than DiMaggio's. If a Yankee and/or Hall of Famer didn't hold the record, we wouldn't be talking about it as much.

[sharrock]

Just to further make the point, Brandon Webb is now at 33 scoreless, which is being reported as big news. Keep in mind that puts him three straight shutouts from breaking the record. One solo-shot and the streak is over.

[NYMets523]

Even a sac fly with a guy on 3rd will break it.

[Imapotato]

I don't know if it's the most difficult to break.

I think Cy Young's 511 career wins is the most difficult to break.

Then again, that number is so high it's almost stupid. It's more a reflection of a weaker, deadball era, where the game was in its infancy, than of Cy's talent. I think that's what makes Joe's record more special -- because it's not a reflection of the times, but of his own talent. And I do think it can be broken.

UGGGH

Yea because back then other sports were taking away the talent base :crazy

[ssbguyincognito]

If I remember correctly Dimaggio won the MVP that year over Williams even though Williams did hit .406.

Dimaggio in 1941 - .357BA/.440OBP/.643SLG/30HR/125RBI

Williams in 1941 - .406BA/.553OBP/.735SLG/37HR/120RBI

Williams finished 2nd in the MVP voting despite the significantly better stats in everything but RBI. Dimaggio won it because of the streak and because he was a Yankee.

We've had this debate on another thread. While William's raw offensive stats are better, Dimaggio played much better defense, in a much weaker ofefnsive position (CF compared to LF), and in a much less hitter friendly ballpark. Those conditions make up for the offensive differential -- Williams put up a 13.5 WARP in 41 (wins above replacement player), Dimaggio put up a 13.4. And when two people have idnetical seasons, as WIlliams and Dimaggio did in 41, then you give it to the guy on the better team. Dimaggio's team won 106 games (or something crazy like that) and won the WS; William's team won 87, something mediocire. Plus, Dimaggio had a much better relationship with the media.

Conclusion: No, Ted Williams did not get robbed of the 1941 MVP. You want to see someone get robbed of an MVP? Look at A-rod in 1996 when he lost to J uan Gonzales. Or a-rod in 2002 when he lost to Miguel Tejada.

[ssbguyincognito]

UGGGH

Yea because back then other sports were taking away the talent base :crazy

No, because the game was young and new, beacuse black people (and otehr colored people) weren't allowed to play.

[hudsonharden]

I don't know if it's the most difficult to break.

I think Cy Young's 511 career wins is the most difficult to break.

Then again, that number is so high it's almost stupid. It's more a reflection of a weaker, deadball era, where the game was in its infancy, than of Cy's talent. I think that's what makes Joe's record more special -- because it's not a reflection of the times, but of his own talent. And I do think it can be broken.
I agree that Cy Young's 511 is pretty far out there, but not as far out as his 749 career complete games. I don't see anyone even getting close to half of that number. But then again, we are in a different era. Which records are most glamorous are completely subjective.

[Imapotato]

No, because the game was young and new, beacuse black people (and otehr colored people) weren't allowed to play.

The overall black population was significant back then...so that argument holds no merit, unless you are stating that the pigment of your skin=your athletic ability, thus a higher % of the smaller black population were better ballplayers then the more plentiful white population. In that case it's also a racist argument and can be ridiculed by stating Willie Mays was not one of the best of all time because he played before the Latin American explosion in baseball, thus played against inferior talent. See how ridiculous it sounds?

[ssbguyincognito]

The overall black population was significant back then...so that argument holds no merit, unless you are stating that the pigment of your skin=your athletic ability, thus a higher % of the smaller black population were better ballplayers then the more plentiful white population. In that case it's also a racist argument and can be ridiculed by stating Willie Mays was not one of the best of all time because he played before the Latin American explosion in baseball, thus played against inferior talent. See how ridiculous it sounds?

Umm...

No.

[natsnsoxfan]

We've had this debate on another thread. While William's raw offensive stats are better, Dimaggio played much better defense, in a much weaker ofefnsive position (CF compared to LF), and in a much less hitter friendly ballpark. Those conditions make up for the offensive differential -- Williams put up a 13.5 WARP in 41 (wins above replacement player), Dimaggio put up a 13.4. And when two people have idnetical seasons, as WIlliams and Dimaggio did in 41, then you give it to the guy on the better team. Dimaggio's team won 106 games (or something crazy like that) and won the WS; William's team won 87, something mediocire. Plus, Dimaggio had a much better relationship with the media.

Conclusion: No, Ted Williams did not get robbed of the 1941 MVP. You want to see someone get robbed of an MVP? Look at A-rod in 1996 when he lost to J uan Gonzales. Or a-rod in 2002 when he lost to Miguel Tejada.

Did the media back then have access to stats like WARP, win shares, VORP, etc.? No, I would imagine probably not. Therefore, due to the time period that the MVP was awarded and the lack of higher level stats they had, he was robbed. From what I've looked at from both teams, the Yankees look like they had a much stronger team than the Red Sox, in addition to Joe. The Red Sox had Fox, Doerr, and Cronin, but all had down years.

Not the point of the thread though. Batting average records, scoreless inning streaks, and percentage/rate records are all greater than the hitting streak record.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

yes Ted did hit for a higher average and yes there were some blatant errors made into hits for ole Joltin' Joe.

IMO hitting streaks are overrated. I wouldn't doubt that this is the most famous record now but I am more impressed by Hershiser's consecutive scoreless streak than I am of DiMaggio's hitting streak.

Blatant, where is that, lets talk about it.
Two incidents, July 17. Dimaggio hits a ground ball that takes a bad hop and strikes SS Luke Appling in the shoulder.
Some luck, probably some luck in other streaks. Correctly scored a hit not because it was Joe Dimaggio but because it was hit. Are we going to charge Appling with an error.
Did Tony Kubek get charged with an error on that bad bounce in the 1960 WS, that struck him in the throat. No Bill Virdon was credited with a hit.

July 18 Dimaggio hits a ground ball that Appling reaches for, knocks it down but could no make the throw. how many times do we see that today and it could be a hit or an error.

June 26 Dimaggio hits a hard shot grounder to second baseman John Baradino and it's called an error, some thought it could have been scored a hit. That could have ended the streak, late in the game and Joe might not have batted any more in that game. Dimaggio did hit a double in the 9th inning in his last at bat.
I see a poster saying if it was not Joe Dimaggio a Yankee we might not be discussing that streak. How about some honesty here, if it wasn't Joe Dimaggio and a Yankee some on the board would not be so critical.

No it's not the greatest record, I don't consider any streak feats a record it did show how consistant Joe was over that stretch.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

:crazy

Yeah and to hell with the game outside NY - some don't seem to think it exists.

I say transfer all this stuff to the Yankees forum so they can slap themselves on the back all day without annoying others.

Sounds like that NY on the uniform gives you an upset stomach. Why move it over, do we move Williams, Musial or any others to their team forums.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Yes, he did. I don't recall The Splendid Splinters' exact average during DiMaggio's streak (May 15 - July 16, 1941,) but I think it was .412. DiMaggio batted .408 during his streak and .357 on the season. That was good for third in the American League to Cecil Travis (.359) and Ted Williams (.406.)

Personally, I think Cy Youngs 511 Career Wins is a superior record. The 56-game hitting streak is remarkable, but I think it is overrated. I think there might be another 300 game winner, but I highly doubt Clemens or Maddux will get to 400 wins, and I would bet anything that no one will ever get to 500 wins in baseball.

So do I but should that fact diminish the streak. But also to be considered because the game is so different Young's record can't even be challenged but Dimaggio's is on the line, has been since 1942. There have been a lot more shots at Joe's 56 but none at Young, it's a whole different game today than it was 100 years ago.

[Neilios]

Some records are definitely a reflection of the time in which they were set. With a five-man rotation and several other factors, few of today's pitchers will ever get 500 starts. When you start 815 games, you'd better be amongst the all-time wins leaders! Now he did win about 63% of his starts to Clemens and Maddux's roughly 49-50%, but a mere 8% of his starts weren't complete games, meaning that acheiving a 'win' was mainly dependent on how his team performed. This is for those who say the win is an overrated statistic. I'm not trying to take anything away from ole' Cy. His ERA was still impressive, but it's not much lower than Pedro's and it was a half a run higher than Walter Johnson and Christy Matthewson.

As for the consecutive innings streak, it's a bit more tedious than the hitting streak. To keep the innings streak alive, 100% of the batters you face can't score, whereas you get a minimum of 3 attemps, usually 4 or 5, sometimes 6 per game to keep the hitting streak alive. Just because Hershiser's record was set nearly 50 years more recently doesn't make it any less hallowed. I personally think I'll see the 56 games cracked before the 59 innings.

[RuthMayBond]

I'm not trying to take anything away from ole' Cy. His ERA was still impressive, but it's not much lower than Pedro's Rumor has it Cy pitched a couple more innings than Pedro

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Some records are definitely a reflection of the time in which they were set.
As for the consecutive innings streak, it's a bit more tedious than the hitting streak. To keep the innings streak alive, 100% of the batters you face can't score, whereas you get a minimum of 3 attemps, usually 4 or 5, sometimes 6 per game to keep the hitting streak alive. Just because Hershiser's record was set nearly 50 years more recently doesn't make it any less hallowed. I personally think I'll see the 56 games cracked before the 59 innings.

Agreed, the consecutive inning streak is a harder streak to crack. But even with that, the 56 game hitting streak is a tough one, just not as difficult as the pitching streak. Don't hold your breath.

[BaseballDude89]

I say that before Ichiro retires, he has a 100+ game hitting streak. He is great.

[Neilios]

Rumor has it Cy pitched a couple more innings than Pedro

Well until you find out for sure, don't use it as an argument.

;)

[StanTheMan]

No player is within 20+% of Nolan Ryan's 5,714 Strikeouts. I'm far from a Ryan supporter, but that number is staggering.

Curt Shilling, and Pedro are 2,700 behind! You could add the career K's of Bob Feller, Warren Spahn, Mike Mussina, or Tom Glavine's -- add them to that of Pedro or Shilling and STILL not have as many as Ryan.

Clemens and Randy Johnson are both more than 1,000 behind.

Unbelievable.

[RuthMayBond]

I say that before Ichiro retires, he has a 100+ game hitting streak. He is great.He might want to get up to, oh, forty to start with

[Matt1901]

So do I but should that fact diminish the streak. But also to be considered because the game is so different Young's record can't even be challenged but Dimaggio's is on the line, has been since 1942. There have been a lot more shots at Joe's 56 but none at Young, it's a whole different game today than it was 100 years ago.I did say that the 56-game hitting streak is remarkable.

The pitching is much tougher now than during the 1940's. There is much greater specialization to pitching with quality middle-relievers, set-up men and shutdown closers.


No, because the game was young and new, beacuse black people (and otehr colored people) weren't allowed to play.Were they allowed to play in 1941? No.

[Mattingly]

Cy Young has the most wins (511) and the most losses (316). Walter Johnson was 417-279.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/L_career.shtml

[Honus Wagner Rules]

He might want to get up to, oh, forty to start with
Yes, that would help. :D

[Rocket Fan Man]

No player is within 20+% of Nolan Ryan's 5,714 Strikeouts. I'm far from a Ryan supporter, but that number is staggering.

Curt Shilling, and Pedro are 2,700 behind! You could add the career K's of Bob Feller, Warren Spahn, Mike Mussina, or Tom Glavine's -- add them to that of Pedro or Shilling and STILL not have as many as Ryan.

Clemens and Randy Johnson are both more than 1,000 behind.

Unbelievable.


I 100% agree, Know one will ever touch Nolan Ryan's 5,714 ever!
And his numbers were made pitching in the new era of baseball playing against blacks and laten talent.

[NYMets523]

No player is within 20+% of Nolan Ryan's 5,714 Strikeouts. I'm far from a Ryan supporter, but that number is staggering.

Curt Shilling, and Pedro are 2,700 behind! You could add the career K's of Bob Feller, Warren Spahn, Mike Mussina, or Tom Glavine's -- add them to that of Pedro or Shilling and STILL not have as many as Ryan.

Clemens and Randy Johnson are both more than 1,000 behind.

Unbelievable.

You could probably do the same thing with his walk totals :eek:

[StanTheMan]

You could probably do the same thing with his walk totals :eek:

Requiring a guy who was able to pitch THAT long to have low walk totals is a bit silly. I don't have his walk numbers, or more importantly walks per 9 in front of me....... but oh well. I'm far from a Ryan supporter as I stated, but there have been MANY guys get closer to 56 games (Rose, Molitor come immediately to mind) than Ryan's 5,700 K's. Admittedly a carreer record demands lengthly excellence, while a hitting streak requires two-three months of excellence... but the very nature of Dimaggio's record dictates it is in FAR more jeopardy than nearly ALL of the career records already posted.

[GotMelk?]

The Ultimate record that never will get broken is 41 wins in a season set by Happy Jask Chesbro in 1904.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

The Ultimate record that never will get broken is 41 wins in a season set by Happy Jask Chesbro in 1904.
"Old Hoss" Radbourn and his 59 win season says :waving

[LouGehrig]

How about the guy who never won a Cy Young Award and has 511 wins?