# 12 GG for Little O?

[Old Sweater]

Rank Name Team Games Fielding Pct by Shortstop PO+A TC
1 Omar Vizquel SF 100 .987 461 467
2 Troy Tulowitzki COL 104 .984 561 570
3 Khalil Greene SD 103 .983 464 472
4 Jose Reyes NYM 111 .982 439 447
5 Jimmy Rollins PHI 112 .982 488 497



Rank Name Team Games Zone Rating by Shortstop Outs Made TC
1 Omar Vizquel SF 100 .891 303 340
2 Jose Reyes NYM 111 .887 289 326
3 Adam Everett HOU 63 .87 181 208
4 Troy Tulowitzki COL 104 .866 342 395

--------------------------------------

I would say so.

Rookie,Troy Tulowitzki has a shot at the GG and 500 assists for the season.

[RuthMayBond]

Rank Name Team Games Fielding Pct by Shortstop PO+A TC
1 Omar Vizquel SF 100 .987 461 467
2 Troy Tulowitzki COL 104 .984 561 570
3 Khalil Greene SD 103 .983 464 472
4 Jose Reyes NYM 111 .982 439 447
5 Jimmy Rollins PHI 112 .982 488 497



Rank Name Team Games Zone Rating by Shortstop Outs Made TC
1 Omar Vizquel SF 100 .891 303 340
2 Jose Reyes NYM 111 .887 289 326
3 Adam Everett HOU 63 .87 181 208
4 Troy Tulowitzki COL 104 .866 342 395

--------------------------------------

I would say so.

Rookie,Troy Tulowitzki has a shot at the GG and 500 assists for the season.With more than ONE HUNDRED additional chances, I'm thinking Tulowitzki has more than "a shot" (at deserving it, probably not winning it)

[west coast orange and black]

another brilliant play by vizquel last night -- going bare-handed was the only way to make the play.

[PVNICK]

With more than ONE HUNDRED additional chances, I'm thinking Tulowitzki has more than "a shot" (at deserving it, probably not winning it) You hit the nail on the head. The past decad ehas proved to me that GG is a name recognition award more than anything else. How else do you explain the SS awards much less Palmeiro's one year when he played about 13 g at 1B.

[BoofBonser26]

another brilliant play by vizquel last night -- going bare-handed was the only way to make the play.
Sigh...you're making me nostalgic. I'm glad SF fans appreciate what they're seeing. Soak it all up.

By the way, for those who don't know, the Indians just called up Asdrubal Cabera, who is a:

Venezuelan native
natural shortstop
former member of the Mariners organization
switch-hitter

and wears number 13. When aquired form the M's, he was described as GG-glove and AA bat.

Oh, and his boyhood hero was some guy named Vizquel. :D

[sharrock]

Omar was spectacular in his prime but is more known by reputation now. He will make some crazy plays but overall I do not see his defense as Gold Glove caliber any longer. Thats no knock, he is simply old.

[StanTheMan]

Rookie,Troy Tulowitzki has a shot at the GG and 500 assists for the season.

Well... since Omar was able to throw out more than 450 runners only ONCE in his entire career.....

If Troy gets to 500 as a rookie... I say give him the GG, no doubt about it.

But as Sweater knows... I'm not a big Viaquel fan... thought I'd disclose that.

[Old Sweater]

Well... since Omar was able to throw out more than 450 runners only ONCE in his entire career.....

If Troy gets to 500 as a rookie... I say give him the GG, no doubt about it.

But as Sweater knows... I'm not a big Viaquel fan... thought I'd disclose that.

Omar would have more if he had Tulo's pitching staff. Ground ball, ground ball, ground ball, ground ball and another ground ball. Helton, Kaz and Atkins is all towards the top in assists(per game) at their defensive positions.

[Old Sweater]

Omar was spectacular in his prime but is more known by reputation now. He will make some crazy plays but overall I do not see his defense as Gold Glove caliber any longer. Thats no knock, he is simply old.

How can he not be GG caliber? Didn't you see his name on top in the stats?


He may be 40, but he is still on top in defensive stats, FP & Zone. The kids just can't keep up with the Ol' Li'll O.

Matter of fact Omar is around .3 above his career assists per game, this year.

[west coast orange and black]

boofbonser26: I'm glad SF fans appreciate what they're seeing. Soak it all up.

By the way, for those who don't know, the Indians just called up Asdrubal Cabera...

vizquel has been adopted as our own. we love him.

and, thanx for the heads-up on cabera. :waving

[Westlake]

It is too bad Everett lost his chance at the gold glove, he might have actually won one this year.

Either way, Vizquel or Tulo would be alright choices. Tulo's assist totals are pretty inflated by the staff, but he's done well enough. Gonzalez might deserve a look, but i haven't seen enough of him this year to say he deserves it.

[sharrock]

How can he not be GG caliber? Didn't you see his name on top in the stats?


He may be 40, but he is still on top in defensive stats, FP & Zone. The kids just can't keep up with the Ol' Li'll O.

Matter of fact Omar is around .3 above his career assists per game, this year.

Defensive stats are the least reliable of any baseball stat. When I watch a Giants game I do not see the same shortstop that Omar was 5 years ago. If the NL is devoid of good defensive SS, then he has a chance. Actually considering that Gold Glove voting is not based on the best defender but the best reputation, he probably has a better chance than I think. But it will not mean he is the best at his position.

[Old Sweater]

Defensive stats are the least reliable of any baseball stat. When I watch a Giants game I do not see the same shortstop that Omar was 5 years ago. If the NL is devoid of good defensive SS, then he has a chance. Actually considering that Gold Glove voting is not based on the best defender but the best reputation, he probably has a better chance than I think. But it will not mean he is the best at his position.


To each their own opinion in what they see I guess.

WCO&B>>>vizquel has been adopted as our own. we love him.

I have only seen Omar twice this year but WCO&B see's him about every day.

Tulo I see about everyday and the kid is darn good but he don't have the slick deke's and moves that Omar has on auto pilot.

Don't get me wrong, for the first time I'm pulling against Omar for the GG.

Of course it is strictly homer.

[BoofBonser26]

vizquel has been adopted as our own. we love him.

That warms my heart. :blush:

[StanTheMan]

Omar was spectacular in his prime but is more known by reputation now. He will make some crazy plays but overall I do not see his defense as Gold Glove caliber any longer. Thats no knock, he is simply old.

In Omar's first season in San Francisco, he had 607 Total Chances and only 396 Assists.

The season PRIOR to Omar arriving... Rich Aurillia and Neifi Perez combined for 704 Total Chances and 445 Assists.

Comparing the pitching staffs (by looking at innings pitched only) you see VERY similar staffs.

For Omar you had Lowry, Tomko, Schmidt, Hennessey, Reuter, Fassero, and Eyre lead the team in innings in that order.

For Perez and Aurillia, you had Schmidt, Tomko, Reuter, Hermansson (closer), Brower and Lowery.

So the differences are Lowery for Eyre.... and Faserro for Brower... excluding the closer.

Did those guys make THAT much of a difference, and produce THAT many more Ground ball... remember, you are looking for a whopping 100 more chances for the SS position...... were those pedestrian pitchers the reason the VERY average Perez and versatile, but far from spectacular Rich Aurillia, OUTPEFORMED the aging Omar Vizquel?

Hardly.....

Omar is still good, but imo, has been overrated for a long, long time, with may of his supporters claiming... if he would JUST get more grounders hit to him.... ;)

He has too many gold gloves, imo.....

[538280]

For their part, statistical metrics certainly agree with you, Stan. Based on fielding metrics (which do adjust for staff tendencies and runners on base and handednessof pitchers and a ton of other things) Vizquel may just be the most overrated fielder of all time. Normally they show him being a little above average for a long time but nothing spectacular. like a B SS. Referencing Vizquel as the best "statistical" shortstop just because he leads in fielding percentage doesn't mean anything IMO. Getting to balls is far more important than not messing up balls. The difference in errors among SSs in a year is usually at most 10-15 plays. The difference in assists, balls the SS got to and turned into outs, is often in the hundreds. Getting to balls hit near them and turning potential hits into outs is the most important job of shorstops, and fielding percentage doesn't reflect that in any way.

[sharrock]

Stan, thanks for expounding on my point.

Too often the slightly above average but unspectacular fielders are overlooked in baseball.

[Old Sweater]

Stan, thanks for expounding on my point.

Too often the slightly above average but unspectacular fielders are overlooked in baseball.

Yeah with the stats that you just said are unreliable.

Omar is 303 outta 340 this year and I doubt if he has gained range.



were those pedestrian pitchers the reason the VERY average Perez and versatile, but far from spectacular Rich Aurillia, OUTPEFORMED the aging Omar Vizquel?


Comparing Aurillia to Vizquel is a absolute joke. Perez has always done well in the zone ratings.

[Old Sweater]

In Omar's first season in San Francisco, he had 607 Total Chances and only 396 Assists.

The season PRIOR to Omar arriving... Rich Aurillia and Neifi Perez combined for 704 Total Chances and 445 Assists.

Comparing the pitching staffs (by looking at innings pitched only) you see VERY similar staffs.

For Omar you had Lowry, Tomko, Schmidt, Hennessey, Reuter, Fassero, and Eyre lead the team in innings in that order.

For Perez and Aurillia, you had Schmidt, Tomko, Reuter, Hermansson (closer), Brower and Lowery.

So the differences are Lowery for Eyre.... and Faserro for Brower... excluding the closer.

Did those guys make THAT much of a difference, and produce THAT many more Ground ball... remember, you are looking for a whopping 100 more chances for the SS position...... were those pedestrian pitchers the reason the VERY average Perez and versatile, but far from spectacular Rich Aurillia, OUTPEFORMED the aging Omar Vizquel?

Hardly.....

Omar is still good, but imo, has been overrated for a long, long time, with may of his supporters claiming... if he would JUST get more grounders hit to him.... ;)

He has too many gold gloves, imo.....

Nice try to diss Omar again Stan. You forgot to mention that Omar was on top in FP(as usual) and 4th in Zone ratings that year and the average Perez as you called him, was 2nd in Zone ratings. You just go out of the way every time to rag on Omar with your one sided stats showings. Next time please show the link or the stats instead of the twisted way you show them each and every time. Don't hate on Omar just because he doesn't do cute little cartwheels before the game like your idle.....lol.......I like Omar from what I have seen through the years and you hate on him because you're a Cardinal fan sweating that L'il O is going to tie your precious Ozzie in GG's. Last year you was all about Adam Everett getting the GG because of Zone Ratings, Omar is on top in Zone Ratings this year and you still cry overrated or reputation. At least stick with or without the Zone Ratings. The coaches and managers vote by what they see and the bat never has helped Omar in their voting.



-----------------------

Sortable Fielding: 2005
NAME GP GS INN TC PO A E DP FPCT RF ZR
Omar Vizquel, SF 150 144 1292.1 668 234 426 8 81 .988 4.60 .872
Orlando Cabrera, LAA 140 139 1241.2 583 229 347 7 81 .988 4.18 .844
Neifi Perez, ChC 130 118 1063.1 570 175 385 10 81 .982 4.74 .884
Jack Wilson, Pit 157 155 1360.0 783 246 523 14 126 .982 5.09 .885


http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/fielding?groupId=9&season=2005&seasonType=2&split=82&sortOrder=true&sortColumn=fieldingPct

[Old Sweater]

found this on the net.
-------------------------------------------

Congratulations to Omar Vizquel, who set the career record for double plays by a shortstop. His 1,591 puts him ahead of Ozzie Smith. No one on TV or any report I've read talked about who is No. 1 all time for any position. Of course. They always set up the question but never provide answers. I'll do some more research, but for now, here are the leaders at each position, taken from my 2002 Sporting News Complete Baseball Record Book:

1b Mickey Vernon 2,044
2b Bill Mazeroski 1,706
3b Brooks Robinson 618
ss Omar Vizquel 1,591
of Tris Speaker 135 (Baseball Almanac says 139)
c Ray Schalk 217
p Phil Niekro 83 (BA says Greg Maddux 82)

-----------------------

Thats a interesting find in the DP's record. Right now Omar has 40 more career DP's then Ozzie with 1128 less total career assists??????????????

[StanTheMan]

Nice try to diss Omar again Stan. You forgot to mention that Omar was on top in FP(as usual) and 4th in Zone ratings that year and the average Perez as you called him, was 2nd in Zone ratings. You just go out of the way every time to rag on Omar with your one sided stats showings. Next time please show the link or the stats instead of the twisted way you show them each and every time. Don't hate on Omar just because he doesn't do cute little cartwheels before the game like your idle.....lol.......I like Omar from what I have seen through the years and you hate on him because you're a Cardinal fan sweating that L'il O is going to tie your precious Ozzie in GG's. Last year you was all about Adam Everett getting the GG because of Zone Ratings, Omar is on top in Zone Ratings this year and you still cry overrated or reputation. At least stick with or without the Zone Ratings. The coaches and managers vote by what they see and the bat never has helped Omar in their voting.


http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/fielding?groupId=9&season=2005&seasonType=2&split=82&sortOrder=true&sortColumn=fieldingPct


Honestly Sweater.... I don't know a darn thing about ZONE RATINGS, how they are calculated, or where to find them... and have never have posted ANYTHING about them.... so you need to back off just a bit.

Another poster mentioned that Vizquel would benefit by having more ground ball pitchers, like the Rockies have.

But I find that to be at least partially, a nice little excue for Vizquel, who despite playing FOREVER, has never been able to get to many balls, or have many assists when compared to other players of his, and earlier generations.

Take Ozzie for example since you brought him up..... Omar's very BEST season in assists was 475. HALF of Ozzie's full seasons surpassed that, including one season (on grass) of 621 assists, still the all time record. Only Smith himself has come withing 50 of it. Vizquel could not DREAM of throwing out that many runners, regardless of who was pitching. He just does not have the athleticism or range, basedon the numbers I have seen, and games I have watched and attended in which these players have played. Zone ratings must be nice and all... but career numbers and career benchmarks don't like. I'd like to see how many times Omar Vizquels name appears in the top, say 50 all time assist seasons. I'll guess it's once, if that. On the other hand, you may as well NAME that list after Ozzie.

And fielding %??? Well, it's easy to shine here when #1 you don't have too many chances due to your own deficiencies/decreased range, or your pitching staff's tendencies, or both.

My stats came from MLB.com..... it's pretty simple. TC's Assists, Innings Pitched.

Think about this.... Omar passed Ozzie in double plays, which is a great accomplishment.

But Omar is still more than 1,000 BEHIND in assists, and 1,500 BEHIND in total chances....with a difference in games played of only 21. But it's ALL because of the pitching.... Yeah, right.

I guess that means Omar is, and has always been, really good when the 2B catches the grounder and throws it to him for a DP.

But him having 11 GG is a travesty, much less 12.

You can certainly claim that I am biased towards Smith... and you would be correct.... but no more than you are towards Omar, imo.

[StanTheMan]

You know what??? I'm in a good mood.... and admittedly might be a bit harsh on Vizquel from time to time.

Tell me why he should be at 11 Gold Gloves, which puts him on the all time list of greatest defensive players at ANY position, even though he is not among the leaders in Total Chances or Assists amongst his peers.

Double Plays... he definitely is tops, I learned that yesterday.....

I'm honestly trying to sing a different tune here... help me out Sweater, or anyone else, and give me the words to the song. :waving

[Old Sweater]

Once again Stan.

Research done by Pine Tar

-----------------------------------

OK,
I have spent way too much time on this but I have finished an interesting statistical career comparison of Vizquel and Smith.
Here is what I did. First, I calculated the RF9 for both players. Then I used the ratio of infield assists by 1b, p, 2b, 3b, and SS to outfield putouts to determine a rough estimate of the ratio of balls hit in play that were ground balls. This ratio was then used to adjust the RF9 numbers. Finally, I adjusted the new RF9 scores by the number of Ks each pitching staff had relative to the number of outs each pitching staff had. This would adjust for the strikeout tendencies of staffs. The resulting year by year numbers look like this:
Ozzie Vizquel
10.43 10.05
10.61 9.56
11.04 10.94
11.27 10.37
10.82 10.45
10.53 9.63
10.54 9.82
10.31 9.89
9.77 9.82
10.23 10.61
10.11 9.94
9.29 10.08
9.48 10.13
9.67 10.50
10.67 10.96
10.96 9.77
9.94 10.29
10.24 9.50
11.51

What these numbers roughly estimate is the RF9 if each team had no strike outs and all balls hit in play were ground balls.
Based on these numbers, and not surprisingly, Ozzie still looks to be better defensively than Vizquel. What is surprising to me is that Vizquel really isn't that far from Smith. In fact, at similar points in each players carreer, Vizquel had a better adjusted RF9 than Ozzie 7 times. Ozzie had a better number 12 times. Vizquel appears to have held up better than did Ozzie.

All of this begs the question about how could it be that the raw numbers look so different for each player and yet the actual performance is so close. The answer is that Ozzie Smith's pitching staffs threw far less strike outs and far more ground balls than did Vizquel's. Here are the number of ks for each pitching staff:
ozzie Vizquel
744 897
779 1064
728 1003
492 894
689 1083
709 666
808 926
798 1033
761 1036
873 1037
881 1120
844 1213
833 1218
822 1058
842 943
775 1115
632 972
842 992
1050

Here are the number of infield assists for each year:
ozzie Vizquel
1779 1650
1799 1628
1869 1662
1268 1642
1908 1603
1793 1201
1868 1507
1755 1647
1675 1636
1757 1613
1777 1611
1746 1550
1598 1477
1552 1524
1680 1651
1771 1557
1164 1511
1505 1497
1552

These numbers make it very clear to me that Ozzie was given many more opportunities to field the ball than was Vizquel. However, at the end of the day it still looks to me that Ozzie was better. However, it looks like Vizquel was definetely in his ballpark. And anybody that rates him as a B level SS defensively is simply not correct. If Smith is an A+ then Vizquel is an A.

Just to be clear, these numbers include the 1981, 1994, and 1995 strike shortened seasons.

---------------------------------------------------

Numbers I kicked around from Pine Tars research.

Totals

Strikeouts by the piching staff.

Omar/ 18,270

Ozzie/ 14,302

Difference 3,968 = 146 games

game totals Omar 2,421 Ozzie 2,511 + 146 games = 2,657 = Ozzie has a total of 236 more games played

Assist totals Omar 6,938(2.85g) Ozzie 8,375(3.33g) = Ozzzie 1,437 (.48g) more then Ozzie

Take Omars 2.85g x 236g = 416 more total assists for Omar 416+ 6938= 7,354 for a assist difference of 1021 assists less then Ozzie.

416 assists more for Omar on strikeouts alone.



Infield assists by team

Omar/ 28,167

Ozzie/ 31,816

Difference/ 3.649



I know if you divide 3,649 by 6 for the infield that it would give Omar 608 more assists.

608 + 419 (k adj) =1,027 bringing the difference for assists between Omar and Ozzie down to 410 assists.

Omar 7,965 Ozzie 8,375 It would also bring up Omar's per game average to 3.28, a lot closer to Ozzie's 3.33 (.05 instead of .5)

----------------------------------

It all wasn't more range when compared to Ozzie. A lot of it as with Tulo this year is the pitching staff.

On the Homer side of things, I'll be tickled pink if Tulo wins the SS GG, Tulo has a arm that Omar can only dream of but no one that I had seen has the hands of Omar.

[Pine Tar]

Another poster mentioned that Vizquel would benefit by having more ground ball pitchers, like the Rockies have.

But I find that to be at least partially, a nice little excue for Vizquel, who despite playing FOREVER, has never been able to get to many balls, or have many assists when compared to other players of his, and earlier generations.

Take Ozzie for example since you brought him up..... Omar's very BEST season in assists was 475. HALF of Ozzie's full seasons surpassed that, including one season (on grass) of 621 assists, still the all time record. Only Smith himself has come withing 50 of it. Vizquel could not DREAM of throwing out that many runners, regardless of who was pitching. He just does not have the athleticism or range, basedon the numbers I have seen, and games I have watched and attended in which these players have played. Zone ratings must be nice and all... but career numbers and career benchmarks don't like. I'd like to see how many times Omar Vizquels name appears in the top, say 50 all time assist seasons. I'll guess it's once, if that. On the other hand, you may as well NAME that list after Ozzie.

And fielding %??? Well, it's easy to shine here when #1 you don't have too many chances due to your own deficiencies/decreased range, or your pitching staff's tendencies, or both.

My stats came from MLB.com..... it's pretty simple. TC's Assists, Innings Pitched.

Think about this.... Omar passed Ozzie in double plays, which is a great accomplishment.

But Omar is still more than 1,000 BEHIND in assists, and 1,500 BEHIND in total chances....with a difference in games played of only 21. But it's ALL because of the pitching.... Yeah, right.
If you do not understand Zone Ratings I am not sure why you are arguing to vigorously against Omar's performance. There are several factors that make your discussion here just plain wrong. The biggest reason Ozzie had so many more assists was because he played his entire career in the National League (where pitchers have to hit, and when they do they tend to hit groud balls).
Another reason was that games were lower scoring when Ozzie played and therefore were more likely to go into extra innings (more chances for groud balls). Another reason, is that the pitching staffs on Ozzie's teams had fewer strike outs.

This may be a bit too technical, but a while back I constructed a statistical model predicting the number of assists per game Ozzie Smith had in a season as a function of the number of put outs per game had by outfielders on his teams. 50% of the variability in the number of assists Ozzie had from year to year was explained by the number of put outs had by outfielders that year. So the correlation was something like .7 between the two numbers.

My point with bringing this up is to say that Ozzie Smith's performance was just as determined by team factors as was Vizquel's. Vizquel on SMith's teams would have had many more assists and SMith on Vizquel's would have had fewer. Maybe Vizquel wouldn't have had as many as Ozzie but it would have been a lot closer. In addition, I would venture to say that Vizquel would have even led the league a few times had he played behind Ozzie's teams.

[Ytown Tribe fan]

I'm a lil upset that the Tribe gave #13 to Cabrera. I believe they should've retired it, but if this kid is every bit as good as they say he is, they may retire it later anyway.

Omar was always one of my favorites, and every middle-aged lady in Northeast Ohio had his poster on their wall. In his prime, he was a very good shortstop, and durable too.

BUT ... he was not deserving of some of the GGs he received, and no way does he deserve one this year. He may still get it for sentimental reasons.

Omar got (and deserved) GGs in 1993, 1995, maybe 1998 and 2001, if you don't give it to Alex Gonzalez. Omar also deserved GG in '91and didn't get it.

But come on ... 1994? He played 69 games in '94! Ripken and Gagne and just about everyone else in the league played 100+ games. Gimme a break. 1996, 1997, 1999, 2000, Omar was just average or maybe a lil above. Gonzalez got totally jobbed most of those years, and it is HE who should have about six or seven GGs. Rafey Furcal was clearly much better in 2005 and 2006, and Adam Everett was even better in 2006.

It shouldn't stop him from making a run at Cooperstown, but Omar should have about five GGs, maybe.

[RuthMayBond]

I'm a lil upset that the Tribe gave #13 to Cabrera. I believe they should've retired it
That was kinda surprising

<BUT ... he was not deserving of some of the GGs he received, and no way does he deserve one this year. He may still get it for sentimental reasons.

Omar got (and deserved) GGs in 1993>

Agreed

<1995>

You liked him over Ripken?

<maybe 1998>

I had him then

<and 2001, if you don't give it to Alex Gonzalez.>

I had Alex

<Omar also deserved GG in '91and didn't get it.>

Hm, I had Ripken again

<Rafey Furcal was clearly much better in 2005>

No Jack Wilson?

<It shouldn't stop him from making a run at Cooperstown, but Omar should have about five GGs, maybe.>

If someone says something against Vizquel, does it make a sound?

[Old Sweater]

I'm a lil upset that the Tribe gave #13 to Cabrera. I believe they should've retired it, but if this kid is every bit as good as they say he is, they may retire it later anyway.

Omar was always one of my favorites, and every middle-aged lady in Northeast Ohio had his poster on their wall. In his prime, he was a very good shortstop, and durable too.

BUT ... he was not deserving of some of the GGs he received, and no way does he deserve one this year. He may still get it for sentimental reasons.

Omar got (and deserved) GGs in 1993, 1995, maybe 1998 and 2001, if you don't give it to Alex Gonzalez. Omar also deserved GG in '91and didn't get it.

But come on ... 1994? He played 69 games in '94! Ripken and Gagne and just about everyone else in the league played 100+ games. Gimme a break. 1996, 1997, 1999, 2000, Omar was just average or maybe a lil above. Gonzalez got totally jobbed most of those years, and it is HE who should have about six or seven GGs. Rafey Furcal was clearly much better in 2005 and 2006, and Adam Everett was even better in 2006.

It shouldn't stop him from making a run at Cooperstown, but Omar should have about five GGs, maybe.


Did it ever occur to you nothing sticks in the voters heads more then errors and spectacular plays? Like you said, defensive stats are the some of the most unreliable there are.


2004
Furcal .962fp/ 4.79rg/ .804zone
Omar .982fp/ 4.31rg/ .840zone


2005
Furcal .981fp/ 5.11rg/ .883zone
Omar .988fp/ 4.60rg/ .872zone

2006
Everett .990fp/ 4.74rg/ .905zone
Omar .993fp/ 4.18rg/ .864zone

2007
Omar .988fp/ 4.79rg/ .889zone
Tulo .985fp/ 5.45rg/ .865zone
Furcal .968fp/ 4.98rg/ .845zone
Alex G. .961/ 4.27rg/ .842zone

The best case by stats is Everett in 2006 and Furcal in 2005 if you go by the stats.

2007 is interesting in the RF rating with Tulowitzki having a .66 advantage. RF = PO+ assists divided by innings played= Tulo just has more balls hit his way IMO, since I follow the Rockies and have seen Omar through the years.

The 2007 stats also show how well Omar has held up through the years compared to Furcal and Alex Gonzalez. Defense isn't like offense where you go into a slump from year to year, defense you have more control of. In 2004 a year you claim Furcal was better then Omar, Furcal was 3rd from the bottom on the FP list and which manager or coach is going to vote for a player that has made that many errors?

I'd like SI or ESPN to conduct a poll of starting SS, as to who they think is best. No one can judge you like your peers.

[Ytown Tribe fan]

I start with defensive Win Shares,, because it is the single best measure of defensive value that has ever been invented.

Clearly, a lot of people disagree with that.

Then, I go by defensive innings/RF/ZR. FP is last, it really isn't important unless you're talking about Dick Allen at 3B.

[StanTheMan]

If you do not understand Zone Ratings I am not sure why you are arguing to vigorously against Omar's performance. There are several factors that make your discussion here just plain wrong. The biggest reason Ozzie had so many more assists was because he played his entire career in the National League (where pitchers have to hit, and when they do they tend to hit groud balls).

First of all... some good numbers from yourself and Mr. Sweater.... I can appreciate the time it takes to analyze such a large amount of data..... but I'm sorry, not all of it holds water, and it took me just ONE search to come to what would be a relatively easy conclusion (in my mind anyway) about your assumption that the NL'ers have such a huge advantage in assisst.... meaning it is the BIGGEST reason (above talent, for example) one great player has over ANOTHER great player (see, I called him great!!!! :nod: ) throughout a career.

But before that, just know that one does NOT need to understand every bit of advanced statistics and sabermetrics to make a decision, or participate in a discussion. Not trying to be nasty here... just my opinion.

OK..... IF the NL provides players (middle infielders to be exact) with more opportunites to field ground balls.... and therefore is the BIGGEST (your words) reason why Smith outpaced Vizquel by more than 1,000 assists, in almost exactly the same amount of games, then you should see that league bias represented in the list of assists by all Major League SS and 2Bmen through the years... but you simply do not. Not even close.

I took 6 seasons at random from Vizquel's career, and looked them up on MLB.com. 1993, 94 (thought it interesting to include the short season), 95, 97, 2002, and 2005, and looked at the TOP 20 Assist Leaders for Shortstops and Second Baseman in all of MLB.

In 1993, the AL had 11 of the top 20 players in assists among SS and 2Bmen, including the #2, #3, and #4 best players. More AL players than NL players amongst the leaders.....

1994 swung back the other way... with only 8 of the top 20 from the AL (but that included the #2 spot, as well as #3 overall)

But that year was an anomaly, the NL would not have such an advantage again.

1995 was evenly split, 10 for each league (but the AL had the #1, 2, 3 & #5!!!!)
1997 10 for each league again (The AL had #3 and #5)
2002, 9 from the AL, and 11 from the NL (#1 and #4 and #5 in the AL)
2005, 11 from the AL, 9 from the NL (best AL could do was #4 spot despite beating the NL again.)

At a rather quick glance there does not appear to be any indication that, at least amongst the players who play full time, that NL players had a significant advantage is ammassing more assists than their AL counterparts... both at the beginning, middle and end of Vizquels career.

I did not look at any other seasons... just those 6. There might be other data proving your point, or discrediting mine, but in all honesty, when the first 6 seasons I looked at show the leagues even amongst the top 20 assist men over a long period, and several mini "eras" there is no need to look further, imo.

Bottom line for me stil is.... a guy like Vizquel, who could never even lead his own LEAGUE in assists.... in an era where asissts among top 20 every year were even between the NL and AL,

should not have 11 Gold Gloves. Somehow the pitching made it tough for him? While other players IN THE AL, were topping the charts and beating ALL NL'ers, or an AL guy throwing out more runners than all but 1, sometimes 2 NL'ers at best? The AL having FOUR OF THE TOP FIVE assist men one season?

I just can't buy everything you are selling.

But you can keep working on me. ;)

Good discussion so far....

[west coast orange and black]

old sweater: I'd like SI or ESPN to conduct a poll of starting SS, as to who they think is best.
No one can judge you like your peers.

expect much bias towards players in their own league +/or guys whom they see often.

[StanTheMan]

I'd like SI or ESPN to conduct a poll of starting SS, as to who they think is best. No one can judge you like your peers.

I found this to be an interesting comment as well.... especially from one who appears to have a good grasp of some of the advanced numbers on this page. To highly value the opinion of a bunch of guys who could only identify a win share if it walked down the street in a short skirt, is interesting.

[RuthMayBond]

The biggest reason Ozzie had so many more assists was because he played his entire career in the National League (where pitchers have to hit, and when they do they tend to hit groud balls).
I'm thinking the NL has more STRIKEOUTS out of that spot than the AL

<Another reason was that games were lower scoring when Ozzie played and therefore were more likely to go into extra innings>

Unless you're talking outdoor soccer, I'm not sure there's much of a correlation here.

[StanTheMan]

I'm thinking the NL has more STRIKEOUTS out of that spot than the AL

<Another reason was that games were lower scoring when Ozzie played and therefore were more likely to go into extra innings>

Unless you're talking outdoor soccer, I'm not sure there's much of a correlation here.

Exactly.... In a lower scoring era, a 3-3 game is just as likely as a 6-6 game in a higher scoring era.

Pitchers hit lots of grounders right to the shortstops, lol. I'm willing to bet that if you compare the pitchers spots in the NL to a combination of the #9 hitters in the AL and the DH's, you will find that those guys in the AL put the ball into plar at an exponentially higher rate that the NL pitchers AND pinch hitters comibned.

Wouldn't that mean MORE opportunities for ground balls to scoop for the AL guys?

But not on Omar's teams apparently.... the laws of baseball cease to exist on his teams, while all those other guys were getting to grounders and recording assists. :laugh

[Old Sweater]

[But not on Omar's teams apparently.... the laws of baseball cease to exist on his teams, while all those other guys were getting to grounders and recording assists.

Omar has got to as many balls hit in his zone as anyone through the last 20 year. Matter of fact he is leading the league this year at the age of 40. Maybe he is gaining range.

[Old Sweater]

2007 NL

Rank Name Team Games Fielding Pct by Shortstop PO+A TC
1 Omar Vizquel SF 100 .987 461 467
2 Troy Tulowitzki COL 104 .984 561 570
3 Khalil Greene SD 103 .983 464 472
4 Jose Reyes NYM 111 .982 439 447
5 Jimmy Rollins PHI 112 .982 488 497

2007 NL

Rank Name Team Games Zone Rating by Shortstop Outs Made TC
1 Omar Vizquel SF 100 .891 303 340
2 Jose Reyes NYM 111 .887 289 326
3 Adam Everett HOU 63 .87 181 208
4 Troy Tulowitzki COL 104 .866 342 395
-------------------------------------------------------


Read it and weep fellers.

[Old Sweater]

Vizquel is also leading the majors in 2 of the 3 % departments at age 40.

Add this to what your eyes see and I believe he has a shot at another GG this year and if not Tulo will probably become the first rookie SS ever to win a GG thanks to the ground ball pitching staff we have.

--------------------------------------------------------

NAME GP GS INN TC PO A E DP FPCT RF ZR
Omar Vizquel, SF 105 101 918.1 496 155 334 7 68 .986 4.79 .890
Troy Tulowitzki, Col 109 109 968.2 595 185 401 9 90 .985 5.45 .865
Orlando Cabrera, LAA 111 111 961.2 482 173 301 8 80 .983 4.44 .830
Jose Reyes, NYM 116 116 1038.0 469 142 319 8 69 .983 4.00 .889
Jimmy Rollins, Phi 117 117 1042.0 521 166 346 9 72 .983 4.42 .819
Khalil Greene, SD 107 107 982.1 489 148 332 9 69 .982 4.40 .855
Jack Wilson, Pit 101 101 896.0 487 130 348 9 81 .982 4.80 .831
Michael Young, Tex 109 109 943.0 500 160 328 12 78 .976 4.66 .789
Edgar Renteria, Atl 103 103 866.1 410 128 272 10 59 .976 4.16 .795
Miguel Tejada, Bal 84 83 734.0 361 95 257 9 58 .975 4.32 .856
Stephen Drew, Ari 106 103 929.1 471 155 304 12 66 .975 4.45 .827
Juan Uribe, CWS 105 102 907.2 494 170 311 13 69 .974 4.77 .835
J.J. Hardy, Mil 105 104 919.1 403 111 281 11 49 .973 3.84 .808
Jhonny Peralta, Cle 113 111 993.0 531 191 325 15 77 .972 4.68 .801
Derek Jeter, NYY 116 114 987.1 488 159 315 14 88 .971 4.32 .763
Julio Lugo, Bos 109 103 912.1 450 163 273 14 55 .969 4.30 .811
Rafael Furcal, LA 107 107 937.2 531 184 330 17 70 .968 4.94 .845
Brendan Harris, TB 87 86 752.2 343 111 221 11 54 .968 3.98 .756
Bobby Crosby, Oak 92 92 814.2 427 131 282 14 61 .967 4.57 .870
Hanley Ramirez, Fla 108 107 933.0 445 160 269 16 68 .964 4.14 .791
Tony Pena Jr., KC 112 110 970.2 506 150 337 19 73 .962 4.52 .832
Alex Gonzalez, Cin 91 87 784.0 387 132 240 15 68 .961 4.27 .842
Jason Bartlett, Min 105 103 911.2 484 155 310 19 70 .961 4.60 .841
Yuniesky Betancourt, Sea 115 110 982.2 516 176 319 21 75 .959 4.54 .818
Carlos Guillen, Det 105 103 884.2 439 127 289 23 57 .948 4.24 .807
--------------------------

Bye Now!:waving

[Pine Tar]

I'm thinking the NL has more STRIKEOUTS out of that spot than the AL

<Another reason was that games were lower scoring when Ozzie played and therefore were more likely to go into extra innings>

Unless you're talking outdoor soccer, I'm not sure there's much of a correlation here.

How could they possibly have more strikeouts than the current batch of DHs in the American League? Also, it has already been documented that the pitching staffs Vizquel played behind had far more Ks than did Ozzie. So I don't see your issue with the statement.

Also, lower scoring games are certainly more likley to go into extra innings than higher scoring games. I don't feel like going into a lot of research to prove that. It is more a statistical argument anyway. If the average score of two teams is 6 their actual scores any given night will vary on average somewhere between 3 and 9. So the chances of them tying are something like 7%. If two teams average 3 runs per game, their actual scores will vary on average somewhere between 2 and 4. So the chances of these two teams tying are something like 16%. The difference between the two scenarios is something like 16 more extra inning games for the lower scoring teams. Thus more ground balls for Ozzie Smith.

Finally, at the very least you can assume that games that go into extra innings will be shorter if the offense scores more. I mean it only takes one run to win at that point.

[Pine Tar]

Exactly.... In a lower scoring era, a 3-3 game is just as likely as a 6-6 game in a higher scoring era.

Pitchers hit lots of grounders right to the shortstops, lol. I'm willing to bet that if you compare the pitchers spots in the NL to a combination of the #9 hitters in the AL and the DH's, you will find that those guys in the AL put the ball into plar at an exponentially higher rate that the NL pitchers AND pinch hitters comibned.

Wouldn't that mean MORE opportunities for ground balls to scoop for the AL guys?

But not on Omar's teams apparently.... the laws of baseball cease to exist on his teams, while all those other guys were getting to grounders and recording assists. :laugh
I am glad you are not in charge of mathematical laws or the laws of physics. We would all be in a heap of trouble. :waving

[Westlake]

I am glad you are not in charge of mathematical laws or the laws of physics. We would all be in a heap of trouble. :waving

What's wrong with what he said?

[Pine Tar]

Exactly.... In a lower scoring era, a 3-3 game is just as likely as a 6-6 game in a higher scoring era...But not on Omar's teams apparently.... the laws of baseball cease to exist on his teams, while all those other guys were getting to grounders and recording assists. :laugh

This statement is absolutely false. To call it a "law of baseball" is therefore laughable.

[RuthMayBond]

But not on Omar's teams apparently.... the laws of baseball cease to exist on his teams, while all those other guys were getting to grounders and recording assists. :laughIt's about time you get with the program ;) :laugh :rofl: :eek: :ughh

[RuthMayBond]

Omar has got to as many balls hit in his zone as anyone through the last 20 year. Matter of fact he is leading the league this year at the age of 40. Maybe he is gaining range.Jeter appears to have

[RuthMayBond]

If the average score of two teams is 6 their actual scores any given night will vary on average somewhere between 3 and 9. So the chances of them tying are something like 7%. If two teams average 3 runs per game, their actual scores will vary on average somewhere between 2 and 4. So the chances of these two teams tying are something like 16%. The difference between the two scenarios is something like 16 more extra inning games for the lower scoring teams. Assuming there is that much difference in scores between the leagues :rolleyes:

[StanTheMan]

This statement is absolutely false. To call it a "law of baseball" is therefore laughable.

Chopping up a post, removing several sentences, and placing a sentence about Omar, next to an unrelated sentence about tie games... is a poor effort, imo.

If there is a LAW of baseball, regarding tie games, I have yet to hear about it..... so I tell you what, I won't chop up your posts, and quote you inaccurately, and you return the favor.

I have question.

Assist have been VERY EVENLY split amongst the top defensive players (of which Omar is one) in both leagues throughout Omar's career. Yet Omar is nowhere near the top of these lists except for one season.

IF his "ZONE RATING" is so superior to eveyone esles, why do the other guys throw out more players?

Could it be that Omar's ZONE is not that large when compared to other players, but when the ball is hit in his ZONE he can make the play?

A wide variety of players, from teams in both leagues, have consistently recorded more assists than Omar... but Omar's ZONE RATING is superior.

It does not add up.

I won't go there, and suggest, as many others have done, that you can dig up any type of advanced baseball stat to support any theory you want, but I've ssen similar claims made on this board.

With the discrepancy between Omar's actual assists being lower than his ZONE rating, with assists at equal levels between leagues... I'm leaning in that direction.

[Pine Tar]

Chopping up a post, removing several sentences, and placing a sentence about Omar, next to an unrelated sentence about tie games... is a poor effort, imo

If there is a LAW of baseball, regarding tie games, I have yet to hear about it..... so I tell you what, I won't chop up your posts, and quote you inaccurately, and you return the favor.
I suggest you reread your post. You stated a few different ideas and then at the end of your post you stated that the "laws of baseball cease to exists of his teams." So if you have a problem with how I interpreted this then I suggest you be clearer with your posts.

I have question.

Assist have been VERY EVENLY split amongst the top defensive players (of which Omar is one) in both leagues throughout Omar's career. Yet Omar is nowhere near the top of these lists except for one season.

IF his "ZONE RATING" is so superior to eveyone esles, why do the other guys throw out more players?

Could it be that Omar's ZONE is not that large when compared to other players, but when the ball is hit in his ZONE he can make the play?

A wide variety of players, from teams in both leagues, have consistently recorded more assists than Omar... but Omar's ZONE RATING is superior.

It does not add up..
Hmm, if a wide variety of players have recorded more assists than Omar doesn't that suggest that perhaps this statistic is in fact context/team dependant? I mean, if it really was an individual statistic then you would expect an individual to be consitantly at the top of the stats. Instead you have a variety of players. This is because pitching staff rarely stay in intact for more than a couple years. This is very different than the 70's and 80 when players stayed with their teams for several years.

I won't go there, and suggest, as many others have done, that you can dig up any type of advanced baseball stat to support any theory you want, but I've ssen similar claims made on this board.

With the discrepancy between Omar's actual assists being lower than his ZONE rating, with assists at equal levels between leagues... I'm leaning in that direction.
No advanced stats are necessary. Omar's career actual assists are being lowered by several factors that are not very hard to understand.
1. THe pitching staffs he played behind had an unusually large number of
strikeouts.
2. The pitching staffs he played behind were comprised predominantly of fly ball pitchers.
3. Omar typically was never a player than played a full 162 games in a season. A player that plays 140 games should have fewer assists than a player that plays 162 games.

I don't know why you would resist these explanations. They are less complicated than the explanation that you are suggesting. I mean, a player gets more assists if they play more games AND if in those games more balls are hit in their direction.

[Old Sweater]

Jeter appears to have

??????????????????????? have what???????????????

[RuthMayBond]

??????????????????????? have what???????????????Jeter appears to have gained range, as we were referring to

[Old Sweater]

I won't go there, and suggest, as many others have done, that you can dig up any type of advanced baseball stat to support any theory you want, but I've ssen similar claims made on this board.



That they can do, but Pine Tar is the only one to use them to try to find out "why" instead of just looking at what is "there", like all the others when it came to Omar vs. Ozzie. In strikeouts alone (146 games) it was equivalent to Omar sitting out a full season.

PO+Assists divided by game or per 9 innings= rfg or rf9 = player with a lot more opportunities.

I like zone+fp better then rf + assists, for all the educated guesses that go into defensive stats.

The only thing I know for a fact is that no SS that I have ever seen on TV since the 50's has impressed me more with his play then Omar and that includes Ozzie. Of course I never have been much of a Ozzie fan because of that crowd gratifying little cartwheel he done.

[StanTheMan]

The only thing I know for a fact is that no SS that I have ever seen on TV since the 50's has impressed me more with his play then Omar and that includes Ozzie. Of course I never have been much of a Ozzie fan because of that crowd gratifying little cartwheel he done.

Oh yes... you love the cartwheel. I forgot the significance it holds for you. Perhaps if Omar was in more All-Star games, or was a fan favorite we may know more about ANYTHING at all that he can do extraordinarily.

Omar is probably one of the better defensive players of his generation, but I think the baseball majority does not agree with your opinion, Sweater.... not that it should decry you from having it, of course.

Perhaps the modern baseball fan (say, under 40) is wholeheartedly influenced by the ESPN "highlight" mentality, but to say that Omar could make ANY play... and that Smith could not make the same, to me is laughable.

But then most would side with me.... that Smith could most definitely make plays that not just Omar could not make, but probably every other SS in the modern era.... or at least not make them as well, or as often, as the Wizard. I'll get you some You Tube links if you'd like.

He hasn't been called the greatest defensive player of All Time, at ANY position, for nothing.

[StanTheMan]

No advanced stats are necessary. Omar's career actual assists are being lowered by several factors that are not very hard to understand.
1. THe pitching staffs he played behind had an unusually large number of
strikeouts.
2. The pitching staffs he played behind were comprised predominantly of fly ball pitchers.
3. Omar typically was never a player than played a full 162 games in a season. A player that plays 140 games should have fewer assists than a player that plays 162 games.

I don't know why you would resist these explanations. They are less complicated than the explanation that you are suggesting. I mean, a player gets more assists if they play more games AND if in those games more balls are hit in their direction.

Perhaps we are both resisting..... re-read my post how Aurillia and Perez blew Vizquels numbers away right after/before Omar arrived/left (can't recall which one, honestly, and can't be bothered to go back and find the post)

WITH ONLY ONE STARTER DIFFERENT between the two staffs, and the closer different for a half season. Even the SAME long relief guy was among the team leaders in inninngs pitched in both seasons.

Kind of throws a dart at your "woe is Omar" his pitchers did this to his numbers theory... at least a little.

[Pine Tar]

Perhaps we are both resisting..... re-read my post how Aurillia and Perez blew Vizquels numbers away right after/before Omar arrived/left (can't recall which one, honestly, and can't be bothered to go back and find the post)

WITH ONLY ONE STARTER DIFFERENT between the two staffs, and the closer different for a half season. Even the SAME long relief guy was among the team leaders in inninngs pitched in both seasons.

Kind of throws a dart at your "woe is Omar" his pitchers did this to his numbers theory... at least a little.

Umm...Aurillia did not play for the Giants before Vizquel arrived and Perez only started 48 games for them that year. Two years earlier Aurillia started for the Giants but his range factor was much lower than anything that Vizquel has put up for the Giants. If you have some stats that support your argument I suggest you use, them not just talk about having them.

[Skin & Bones]

You hit the nail on the head. The past decad ehas proved to me that GG is a name recognition award more than anything else. How else do you explain the SS awards much less Palmeiro's one year when he played about 13 g at 1B.

You'd be surprised actually, they are pretty accurate. Jeter of course is an exception, as well as a few others, but I think they do a pretty good job at picking the best defensive players at each position.

[StanTheMan]

Umm...Aurillia did not play for the Giants before Vizquel arrived and Perez only started 48 games for them that year. Two years earlier Aurillia started for the Giants but his range factor was much lower than anything that Vizquel has put up for the Giants. If you have some stats that support your argument I suggest you use, them not just talk about having them.

The've already been posted, Mr. Selective Memory!! :laugh Post 15 in this thread. It was the year BEFORE Omar arrived.... He could not get to 400 assists, with a VERY similar pitching staff...... the year prior Aurillia and Perez threw out more runners than all but ONE of Omar's seasons in his entire career.

Next you;ll probalby study some numbers, create a new stat showing that these SAME Pitchers somhow could not get batters to hit a ball to shortstop, and that it's not Omar's fault that he could not match Aurillia and Perez.

I suggest your read prior posts before you spout off about people not having any numbers. I'm reading your numbers, asking you questions, etc. and even complimented you on the time it must have taken to get some of yours. Try doing the same, and actually reading others posts. It's a neat thing to do. :nod:

So Rich's "range" factor was lower, but he and the part time Perez threw out mroe runners.... almost the same staff?

Hmmmmmmm..... Seems an easy conclusion to me.

[Pine Tar]

In Omar's first season in San Francisco, he had 607 Total Chances and only 396 Assists.

The season PRIOR to Omar arriving... Rich Aurillia and Neifi Perez combined for 704 Total Chances and 445 Assists.

Comparing the pitching staffs (by looking at innings pitched only) you see VERY similar staffs.

For Omar you had Lowry, Tomko, Schmidt, Hennessey, Reuter, Fassero, and Eyre lead the team in innings in that order.

For Perez and Aurillia, you had Schmidt, Tomko, Reuter, Hermansson (closer), Brower and Lowery.

So the differences are Lowery for Eyre.... and Faserro for Brower... excluding the closer.

Did those guys make THAT much of a difference, and produce THAT many more Ground ball... remember, you are looking for a whopping 100 more chances for the SS position...... were those pedestrian pitchers the reason the VERY average Perez and versatile, but far from spectacular Rich Aurillia, OUTPEFORMED the aging Omar Vizquel?

Hardly.....

Omar is still good, but imo, has been overrated for a long, long time, with may of his supporters claiming... if he would JUST get more grounders hit to him.... ;)

He has too many gold gloves, imo.....

OK here it is.

First of all, Rich Aurillia and Neifi Perez combined for 704 Total Chances and 445 Assists in 2003 and Vizquel did not arrive in San Fran till 2005.
Second, in Vizquel's first year at San Fran he had 426 assists not 396 and 668 total chances not 607!
So the dirrence in total chances was only 36.
Third, the combination of Aurilia and Perez that year played in 83 more innings than did Vizquel in 2005!
If you look at the actual stats, Vizquel averaged 4.6 putouts+assists per 9 innings while the combination of Aurillia and Perez averaged 4.5. So in actuality Vizquel got to more baseball on average than did Aurialia and Perez. In addition, Vizquel had 7 fewer errors (8 versus 15) than Aurilia and Perez. Anyway you slice it, Vizquel outperformed the 2003 Giant shortstops.

[Pine Tar]

The've already been posted, Mr. Selective Memory!! :laugh Post 15 in this thread. It was the year BEFORE Omar arrived.... He could not get to 400 assists, with a VERY similar pitching staff...... the year prior Aurillia and Perez threw out more runners than all but ONE of Omar's seasons in his entire career.

Next you;ll probalby study some numbers, create a new stat showing that these SAME Pitchers somhow could not get batters to hit a ball to shortstop, and that it's not Omar's fault that he could not match Aurillia and Perez.

I suggest your read prior posts before you spout off about people not having any numbers. I'm reading your numbers, asking you questions, etc. and even complimented you on the time it must have taken to get some of yours. Try doing the same, and actually reading others posts. It's a neat thing to do. :nod:

So Rich's "range" factor was lower, but he and the part time Perez threw out mroe runners.... almost the same staff?

Hmmmmmmm..... Seems an easy conclusion to me.

None of your "stats" are in fact accurate. Try to put real stats out there and then we'll talk.

[Pine Tar]

Hmmmmmmm..... Seems an easy conclusion to me.

Ummm...you are looking at Vizquel's stats from 2004 when he was still playing in CLEVELAND Mr. smart guy!

[StanTheMan]

Ummm...you are looking at Vizquel's stats from 2004 when he was still playing in CLEVELAND Mr. smart guy!

Could be.... I suppose I'll have to go check again. If so... I sit corrected!

I was looking at some numbers for the SS before/after Omar arrived/left and compating them to the pitching staffs.

Obviously I have something wrong, if what you say is right.... Bryan

[StanTheMan]

None of your "stats" are in fact accurate. Try to put real stats out there and then we'll talk.

Here' a stat... Vizquel has never led his league in chances or assists, and has never come close to leading MLB. This is of course not a "league" bias thing, as AL SS have led MLB several times during Omar's career.

But remember, Omar can't play lots of games, even when he was young, and his pitchers have always made it tough for him to throw out lots of runners.

How's that?

[Old Sweater]

OK here it is.

First of all, Rich Aurillia and Neifi Perez combined for 704 Total Chances and 445 Assists in 2003 and Vizquel did not arrive in San Fran till 2005.
Second, in Vizquel's first year at San Fran he had 426 assists not 396 and 668 total chances not 607!
So the dirrence in total chances was only 36.
Third, the combination of Aurilia and Perez that year played in 83 more innings than did Vizquel in 2005!
If you look at the actual stats, Vizquel averaged 4.6 putouts+assists per 9 innings while the combination of Aurillia and Perez averaged 4.5. So in actuality Vizquel got to more baseball on average than did Aurialia and Perez. In addition, Vizquel had 7 fewer errors (8 versus 15) than Aurilia and Perez. Anyway you slice it, Vizquel outperformed the 2003 Giant shortstops.

Nice post. I think I'll sit back and enjoy it.

[Old Sweater]

Here' a stat... Vizquel has never led his league in chances or assists, and has never come close to leading MLB.


Can't have one without the other can you? % wise?

Lead league in TC= Lead league in assists.

With Omars Zone rating it is quite obvious.


Omar> 109 games/ .891z/ 327 outs made in 367 total chances

Tulo> 113 games/ .869z/ 370 outs made in 426 total chances

Tulo with the Rockies ground ball pitching staff makes the difference. I know for a fact that Tulo isn't going to get to 59 more balls then Omar in 113 games. That comes out to .52 a game.

Omar> 107g/ 338a/ 3.15g
Tulo> 112g/ 408a/ 3.64g

Once again the difference is .49 more a game thanks to a ground ball pitching staff since Omar has a .22 better Zone Rating.

Tulo is damn good, he brings praise from all are local announcers and writers but 1/2 ball more a game then Omar isn't going to happen on range alone. That would be a highlight reel play every 2 games to get to a ball that Omar can't get to.

When it comes time to vote in any public polls I will be voting Tulo since his stats are great and I'm a Rockies fan but I know that he doesn't have the best hands that ever played SS like Omar does. IMO

BTW Stan. Tulo's 3.64g is better this year then Ozzie's career average of 3.33g............. Do you think that Tulo is getting to .34 more balls a game then Ozzie could get to, or do you think that the ground ball pitching staff we have because of our thin air has something to do with driving up the range factor? I think it's the pitching staff myself.

[Pine Tar]

Here' a stat... Vizquel has never led his league in chances or assists, and has never come close to leading MLB. This is of course not a "league" bias thing, as AL SS have led MLB several times during Omar's career.

But remember, Omar can't play lots of games, even when he was young, and his pitchers have always made it tough for him to throw out lots of runners.

How's that?

Well Stan, the response to this is really not that complicated.
In 1993, Vizquel missed out on leading the AL is assists by a whole three total chances to Ripken (738 to 735). Why did Ripken lead the league? Was it his range that caused him to lead the league? You might say yes, but doesn't it mean anything to you that Ripken played in 4 more games than Vizquel that year? Doesn't it mean anything to you that Vizquel's pitching staff lead the league in strike outs that year and had 183 more strike outs than the Orioles?
How about 1998, when Vizquel finished second to Rodriguez in total chances? He only had 13 fewer total chances (731 to 718) even though he played in 9 fewer games than Rodriguez. Does that mean anything to you? Probably not.

[Imapotato]

and how can a player who plays 10 or 15 less games then another so thus has less chances...a detrimit to his fielding skills?

Oh yea...it doesn't add up in the 'formulas' that determines who is better

Sorry but it is not the end of the world if Vizquel has a number of amazing plays during the year and wins the GG even if the claculations don't add up

[StanTheMan]

Well Stan, the response to this is really not that complicated.
In 1993, Vizquel missed out on leading the AL is assists by a whole three total chances to Ripken (738 to 735). Why did Ripken lead the league? Was it his range that caused him to lead the league? You might say yes, but doesn't it mean anything to you that Ripken played in 4 more games than Vizquel that year? Doesn't it mean anything to you that Vizquel's pitching staff lead the league in strike outs that year and had 183 more strike outs than the Orioles?
How about 1998, when Vizquel finished second to Rodriguez in total chances? He only had 13 fewer total chances (731 to 718) even though he played in 9 fewer games than Rodriguez. Does that mean anything to you? Probably not.


When you are comparing which player had MORE... then no, it does not matter. Not one bit.... Simple as.

I'm a pinch hitter, and go 10 for 12 on the season, say. Rusty Staub goes 48 for 100.

Am I better? Your %'s do not tell the whole story.

[Pine Tar]

When you are comparing which player had MORE... then no, it does not matter. Not one bit.... Simple as.

I'm a pinch hitter, and go 10 for 12 on the season, say. Rusty Staub goes 48 for 100.

Am I better? Your %'s do not tell the whole story.

You asked me to explain why Vizquel had never lead the league in assists and total chances. I did that, and explained very clearly why he didn't lead the league in 1993 and 1998.

As for your Staub example that is also very much a red herring that has nothing to do with this discussion.

What you are actually saying is that a hitter that gets 205 hits in in 600 at bats is better than a hitter that had 202 hits in 500 at bats.

Vizquel had far fewer opportunities to field balls in 1993 than did Ripken and yet still only had 3 fewer plays made. Are you saying that if he had had 60 more balls hit to him through the course of the 1993 season because of a less strike out prone pitching staff and by playing 4 more games, but only make 4 plays on all these opportunities, he somehow would have had a better year?
That is nonsense.

[Old Sweater]

Omar Enrique Vizquel (born April 24, 1967 in Caracas, Venezuela) is a Major League Baseball shortstop playing for the San Francisco Giants. Previously, Vizquel played for the Seattle Mariners (1989-93) and the Cleveland Indians (1994-2004). Vizquel is considered one of baseball's all-time best defensive shortstops, winning nine consecutive Gold Gloves (1993-2001) and two in 2005 and 2006. He also tied Cal Ripken's AL record for most consecutive games without an error (95 between September 26, 1999 and July 21, 2001). In Cleveland he joined Kenny Lofton as the first pair of Indians to win Gold Gloves since Vic Power and Jimmy Piersall did in 1961. As of 2005, his .984 career fielding percentage is the highest of all-time for a shortstop in major league history. On April 20, 2007 he passed Cal Ripken Jr. with his 2479th hit to record the second most career hits while playing shortstop in the past 50 years, second only to Luis Aparicio. Omar is fifth all-time in career hits-while-playing-shortstop behind Honus Wagner, Luke Appling, Luis Aparicio, and Rabbit Maranville. On May 6, he collected his 2,500th hit against the Philadelphia Phillies.

Omar Vizquel

[StanTheMan]

You asked me to explain why Vizquel had never lead the league in assists and total chances.


Are you saying that if he had had 60 more balls hit to him through the course of the 1993 season because of a less strike out prone pitching staff and by playing 4 more games, but only make 4 plays on all these opportunities, he somehow would have had a better year?
That is nonsense.

No I didn't.

And No I'm not.

[Pine Tar]

No I didn't.

And No I'm not.

Please explain how what you are saying about Vizquel is different. Just saying"no I'm not" isn't very convincing.

[Old Sweater]

This Omar thread had one of the best endings I have ever seen!