Explain Alex Rodriguez logically

[Imapotato]

This is for the Barry Bonds cheated...asterisk...blah blah blah fan

So Alex hits his 500th...fastest to do it
Bonds has been in the league 22 years...finally reaches 756 HRs

Alex is on pace to bypass that record...one that Bonds 'cheated' to get to, allegedly

So how come Alex is considered 'clean' while Bonds cheated?

I just don't understand how you can use logic to state that one broke a record using Steroids while one hits 500 at 32 and not say that Steroids helped him...using logic

Maybe there is something else...like I don't know...the era in which they played

So instead of following someone else's misguided ideals on Bonds...how about you find similarities between the 2

Smaller strikezone
Better workout/nutrition
harder balls that travel further (proven)
smaller ballparks repalcing big cookie cutters
4 new teams due to expansion
better bat technology...I have a maple bat...it adds 20-50ft to balls I hit from my old bat. bigger sweet spot, just as light as Ash
and many more...


If there was a magic pill that made one a better ball player I'd be on the Phillies playing Catcher rather then telling you the truth.

BTW, 9 out of 10 times if the government is after you like they are with Bonds...you are going down. So why has Bonds been 'lucky' so far?
Even with a book denouncing him???

Innoncent until proven guilty...but even then

Steroids were not illegal in baseball when Bonds allegedly took them
BUT beer was illegal in the 20's when Ruth liked to chug them down

[Elvis]

So how come Alex is considered 'clean' while Bonds cheated?

I just don't understand how you can use logic to state that one broke a record using Steroids while one hits 500 at 32 and not say that Steroids helped him...using logic


Because there is a mountain of credible and circumstantial evidence that Bonds was doped while there is no evidence that Rodruiguez was.

Logical enough for ya?

[Imapotato]

Ok, the QUESTION was how to explain that steroids was the reason Bonds broke the record...but it doesn't help Rodriguez

Not why you think he is guilty, but one can surmise

So no, your answer did not answer the question logically at all

[Johnny Evers]

Ok, the QUESTION was how to explain that steroids was the reason Bonds broke the record...but it doesn't help Rodriguez

Not why you think he is guilty, but one can surmise

So no, your answer did not answer the question logically at all

I don't understand what you're looking for; in your initial post, I see no logic as might be defined by Aristotle or anyone with a decent education, only a senseless rant.

The fact that A-Rod is a great home run hitter does not mean he used steroids--it just signals that he is as talented, if not more so, than players who have cheated to achieve monstrous numbers. There is more to "logic" than comparing home run rates.

[MyDogSparty]

Obviously one logical explanation is that they're both doing steroids but as it was pointed out earlier, Bonds is tied to the BALCO investigation and could be facing purjury charges, therefore he gets the negative press at the moment. Let's see what comes out between now and when Arod approaches Bonds' record to see if he gets treated negatively. According to Canseco he already has some "stuff" on Arod coming out in his new book. Time will tell.

I'm not sure if my timeline is correct but I thought that the "Game of Shadows" book stated that Bonds was jealous of McGwire and Sosa after the HR chase in 1998 and started using steroids in 1999. Here is a list of HR leaders since 1999...


1 Alex Rodriguez 394
2 Barry Bonds 345
3 Manny Ramirez 335
4 Sammy Sosa 331
5 Jim Thome 327
6 Carlos Delgado 319
7 Andruw Jones 309
8 Vladimir Guerrero 306
9 Jason Giambi 284
10 Richie Sexson 279
11 Gary Sheffield 276
12 Albert Pujols 274
13 Troy Glaus 271
14 Todd Helton 267
15 Chipper Jones 267
16 Paul Konerko 261
17 Rafael Palmeiro 255
18 Shawn Green 249
19 Carlos Lee 245
20 Lance Berkman 244
21 Jim Edmonds 241
22 David Ortiz 240
23 Ken Griffey 239
24 Miguel Tejada 236
25 Luis Gonzalez 235
26 Jermaine Dye 234
27 Adam Dunn 228
28 Jeff Bagwell 228
29 Eric Chavez 227
30 Alfonso Soriano 226
31 Jeromy Burnitz 225
32 Brian Giles 223
33 Carlos Beltran 222
34 Jeff Kent 222
35 Mike Piazza 222
36 Magglio Ordonez 219
37 Frank Thomas 219
38 Derrek Lee 210
39 Aramis Ramirez 206
40 Pat Burrell 205
41 Scott Rolen 204
42 Adrian Beltre 201


...so who's on roids based on this list? The most noticable thing to me is that Bonds should be past his prime while Arod had been approaching his.

Here's some VERY interesting stats on Bonds...

From 1986 to 1998 (ages 21-33) Bonds hit 411 HR in 8100 plate appearences and 6621 ABs
From 1999 to 2007 (ages 34-42) Bonds hit 345 HR in 4413 plate appearences and 3153 ABs

As he got older Bonds hit a HR almost twice as often!

Let's see how Arod ages. He's still only 32 years old.

[Skin & Bones]

...so who's on roids based on this list? The most noticable thing to me is that Bonds should be past his prime while Arod had been approaching his.


Again, using Bonds as some sort of standard for steroid suspiscion is specious. He's rare in that he already was one of the best players ever who was content with his natural ability until he saw fans praise Mcgwire and Sosa ( more Mcgwire), who he felt were vastly inferior to him, and cheating at the same time. Most players usually start in their physical primes to get ahead, and just to become elite. Many just to make a major league ballclub. So, don't be fooled by the fact that just because someone's in their prime automatically means their steroid free. Don't let Barry become some kind of standard for "obvious" steroid use.

[BoofBonser26]

Ok, the QUESTION was how to explain that steroids was the reason Bonds broke the record...but it doesn't help Rodriguez

Not why you think he is guilty, but one can surmise

So no, your answer did not answer the question logically at all
He gave a clean, logical explanation.

A-Rod is simply better.

There are several players (I don't have the stats; maybe someone else does) who were ahead of Bonds' home run pace at age 32. Were they on steroids?*

*I'm pretty sure Jimmy Foxx was one of them

(and by the way, the answer is "no")

[MyDogSparty]

Again, using Bonds as some sort of standard for steroid suspiscion is specious. He's rare in that he already was one of the best players ever who was content with his natural ability until he saw fans praise Mcgwire and Sosa ( more Mcgwire), who he felt were vastly inferior to him, and cheating at the same time. Most players usually start in their physical primes to get ahead, and just to become elite. Many just to make a major league ballclub. So, don't be fooled by the fact that just because someone's in their prime automatically means their steroid free. Don't let Barry become some kind of standard for "obvious" steroid use.

I don't think I'm using Bonds as a standard of steroid suspiscion. I'm only pointing out the drastic difference in his numbers because they exist. Obvoiusly, players who start using drugs earlier in their careers than Bonds did will chart or graph differently than Bonds and therefore it would be harder to make a case that something changed but for Bonds specifically, the numbers/charts/graphs can be pretty telling. It's scary to think that Arod could have been using since he started his career and therefore his numbers will show the normal trend lines when compared to Ruth or Aaron. I opened my original post in this thread with the comment that one logical explanation is that they both have been using drugs. To find that that is the truth wouldn't surprise me in the least. I stated that "let's see how Arod ages" because as of right now he's the fastest to 500 HRs. But, he the fastest by less than one year over Jimmy Foxx, who, I doubt anyone thinks did PEDs. So his numbers are not yet that unbelievable. Now if he continues to hit HRs like crazy through the age of 40 then I think that would look very suspicious.

[natsnsoxfan]

What is the only LOGICAL explanation for putting on all that muscle before going on his homerun campaign in in '01 or '02? Or what is the only LOGICAL explanation for suddenly jacking absurd numbers of homerun once hes supposed to be in a decline phase of his career? A-Rod has never just magically beefed up over one offseason, hes gotten bigger since he entered the league but his frame hadn't filled out when he first came up, and he has been extremely consistent with 40-50 homerun seasons, when Bonds start smacking them out at an abnormal rate suddenly and during his decline phase.

[mwb]

A-Rod is a tremendously talented player. He may be the most talented player I've seen (although not much). He makes it look so easy. But I'm not ready to give him 755 HR's just yet.

I agree with natsnsoxfan that his numbers & his body have been consistent throughout his career which is evidence against the allegation he's used steroids. Plus there hasn't been any allegations against him yet.

[Skin & Bones]

I don't think I'm using Bonds as a standard of steroid suspiscion. I'm only pointing out the drastic difference in his numbers because they exist. Obvoiusly, players who start using drugs earlier in their careers than Bonds did will chart or graph differently than Bonds and therefore it would be harder to make a case that something changed but for Bonds specifically, the numbers/charts/graphs can be pretty telling. It's scary to think that Arod could have been using since he started his career and therefore his numbers will show the normal trend lines when compared to Ruth or Aaron. I opened my original post in this thread with the comment that one logical explanation is that they both have been using drugs. To find that that is the truth wouldn't surprise me in the least. I stated that "let's see how Arod ages" because as of right now he's the fastest to 500 HRs. But, he the fastest by less than one year over Jimmy Foxx, who, I doubt anyone thinks did PEDs. So his numbers are not yet that unbelievable. Now if he continues to hit HRs like crazy through the age of 40 then I think that would look very suspicious.

Canseco didn't hit tons of homeruns through the age of 40. Mcgwire retired before 40. See where im going here? Bonds is rare because most players use drugs early in their careers. Therefore, it's harder to notice whether or not the player's cheating. By comparing Players who may be juicin' in their primes to a Barry Bonds who juiced as a old man does them a HUGE justice, and is probably a reason why very few big name steroid users will ever be exposed. Just because they didn't experience that late career surge.

[Skin & Bones]

FTR, I don't know if Arod did steroids or not. It's a fact that he gained a substantial amount of weight since he entered the league. Whether it was steroid aided or not is something I don't know. However, just because he didn't have some kind of late career spike doesn't exonerate Arod from this discussion.

[MyDogSparty]

Bonds is rare because most players use drugs early in their careers. Therefore, it's harder to notice whether or not the player's cheating.

I thought I understood what you were saying above because it's pretty much the same as what I said here. (MDS: It's scary to think that Arod could have been using since he started his career and therefore his numbers will show the normal trend lines when compared to Ruth or Aaron.)

But you lost me with this statement...

By comparing Players who may be juicin' in their primes to a Barry Bonds who juiced as a old man does them a HUGE justice, and is probably a reason why very few big name steroid users will ever be exposed.

[randy]

Why would you throw arod under the bus when there has NEVER been a mention of him as a user. I am not saying he did or didn't, because I DO NOT KNOW, nor do you. But to bring him up out of the blue is irresponsible and libelous.
All I know is that his numbers have been pretty consistent, except for a mild spike one year in Texas, which can be explained by the park. Also, his head didn't grow to huge proportions the way Bonds head did.

[Skin & Bones]

I thought I understood what you were saying above because it's pretty much the same as what I said here. (MDS: It's scary to think that Arod could have been using since he started his career and therefore his numbers will show the normal trend lines when compared to Ruth or Aaron.)

But you lost me with this statement...

It does them justice because they recieve free passes from the steroid talk. Anwser me this, if Balco didn't exist, how many people would question Giambi's numbers?

I'd bet probably zero. Bonds on the other hand, because he got better with age, would always fall under suspiscion, regardless if he's linked to the roid scandal or not.

[Skin & Bones]

Let me also add that there seems to be an obsession with Barry Bonds head. There was no obsession with Palmerio's head, yet we know for a fact he juiced. I don't even remember talk about Mcgwire's head, yet many believe he juiced. Just because Arod's head supposedly didn't grow doesn't mean he didn't abuse steroids.

[EdmondsFan#1]

Bonds strength coach admitted to giving Bonds steroids... There is no proof that Alex Rodriguez used steroids.

[Skin & Bones]

Bonds strength coach admitted to giving Bonds steroids... There is no proof that Alex Rodriguez used steroids.

Bonds strength coach said that? link?

[YankeeDJW]

Ok, the QUESTION was how to explain that steroids was the reason Bonds broke the record...but it doesn't help Rodriguez

Not why you think he is guilty, but one can surmise

So no, your answer did not answer the question logically at all

*sigh* Does it really have to be spelled out for you?

Bonds:
Rumors swirl about Bond's on PEDs --> Bond's personal trainer arrested in steroid scandel --> Bond's investigated by Fed's for multilple allegetions --> Two writers write a detailed book on Bond's "indescretions"--> Leaked grand-jury testimony appears to contain an admission that steroids were inadverently used --> Bond's is 43 years old and still one of the most feared hitters in the game --> Bond's probably used PEDs

A-rod:
. --> . --> There is no reason to suspect A-rod used PEDs



Sorry, I don't know if I got the chronology right for either person (A-rod's was particularly difficult) and I may have skipped a few logical steps, but - shocking as it is - that is the logical reason people suspect Bond's of using PED's and not A-rod.

[BoofBonser26]

*sigh* Does it really have to be spelled out for you?

Bonds:
Rumors swirl about Bond's on PEDs --> Bond's personal trainer arrested in steroid scandel --> Bond's investigated by Fed's for multilple allegetions --> Two writers write a detailed book on Bond's "indescretions"--> Leaked grand-jury testimony appears to contain an admission that steroids were inadverently used --> Bond's is 43 years old and still one of the most feared hitters in the game --> Bond's probably used PEDs

A-rod:
. --> . --> There is no reason to suspect A-rod used PEDs



Sorry, I don't know if I got the chronology right for either person (A-rod's was particularly difficult) and I may have skipped a few logical steps, but - shocking as it is - that is the logical reason people suspect Bond's of using PED's and not A-rod.
Good post, YankeeDJW. The thread should be over, but it will go on and on and on...sigh.

[MyDogSparty]

It does them justice because they recieve free passes from the steroid talk. Anwser me this, if Balco didn't exist, how many people would question Giambi's numbers?

I'd bet probably zero. Bonds on the other hand, because he got better with age, would always fall under suspiscion, regardless if he's linked to the roid scandal or not.

I don't think you're saying anything different than what I'm saying.

[BoofBonser26]

It does them justice because they recieve free passes from the steroid talk. Anwser me this, if Balco didn't exist, how many people would question Giambi's numbers?

I'd bet probably zero. Bonds on the other hand, because he got better with age, would always fall under suspiscion, regardless if he's linked to the roid scandal or not.
Giambi used. He's "admitted" it. But Giambi is not the all-time home-run king. The all-time home-run king, by virtue of his royalty, deserves close inspection.

[Skin & Bones]

I don't think you're saying anything different than what I'm saying.

Ok, if I misunderstood you, my mistake.

[Skin & Bones]

Giambi used. He's "admitted" it. But Giambi is not the all-time home-run king. The all-time home-run king, by virtue of his royalty, deserves close inspection.

You really didn't understand my point at all...

[BoofBonser26]

You really didn't understand my point at all...
Do you mean that if Balco didn't exist, and we didn't have evidence of who used, then would we question different people?

Hell yes.

[Skin & Bones]

Do you mean that if Balco didn't exist, and we didn't have evidence of who used, then would we question different people?

Hell yes.

Yes. Infact, pretty much nobody (atleast position players, sans Bonds) would of been questioned, because of the ones who used, the majority would have used since they were younger, and thus their career patterns would look "normal". Which apparently takes you away from any suspiscion

[BoofBonser26]

Yes. Infact, pretty much nobody (atleast position players, sans Bonds) would of been questioned, because of the ones who used, the majority would have used since they were younger, and thus their career patterns would look "normal". Which apparently takes you away from any suspiscion
You've got to avoid a witch hunt, though. Just looking at stats is a witch hunt. There are guys who normally will have bizarre career years and then go back to normal. It's part of normal statistical deviation. It's been happening since baseball began.

Did tons of players use? Yes. Can we name tons of players? No. Because we don't have enough evidence. So, we name the very few we can, know that more used, and don't name anyone specific and presume people innocent until proven guilty.

[Skin & Bones]

You've got to avoid a witch hunt, though. Just looking at stats is a witch hunt. There are guys who normally will have bizarre career years and then go back to normal. It's part of normal statistical deviation. It's been happening since baseball began.

Did tons of players use? Yes. Can we name tons of players? No. Because we don't have enough evidence. So, we name the very few we can, know that more used, and don't name anyone specific and presume people innocent until proven guilty.


Right, and I understand that, but I don't believe because someone may have had a "normal" career pattern makes him any more or less guilty than someone who's had an odd career pattern. Now if there's a big difference in evidence ( Bonds & Arod ) then I definitely understand the difference. But if there WAS no balco evidence on Bonds, I still belive he would face more scrutiny than Arod because of his odd career pattern.

[SamtheBravesFan]

I was once told I was naive if I thought Julio Franco hasn't taken PEDs recently.

[EdmondsFan#1]

Bonds strength coach said that? link?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Anderson_(trainer)

Sorry, I mean Bonds' trainer not strength coach. My bad.

[Skin & Bones]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Anderson_(trainer)

Sorry, I mean Bonds' trainer not strength coach. My bad.

Greg has been alleged to have said that. He's never admitted it publicly though. The whole basis of that claim I believe is based on some tape they heard in 03.

[PVNICK]

A-Rod came into the league for a cup of coffee at 19. His first full season was the year he turned 21. That gives him a head start on everyone but Griffey, Aaron, Mathews, Ott and Foxx to name a few. Until coming to the Yankees he played in the Kingdome until it was imploded and then after a year went to Texas. Both were hitter's parks. Given these two favorable circumstances it's not surprising that he is at or about the head of the list for HR by age.

As for his size. It's far from unusual, if not natural, for a man to "fill out" during his twenties. That doesn't mean people who do aren't helping the process along, but in and of itself it is nothing to arouse suspicion.

[west coast orange and black]

randy: Also, [Rodriguez's] head didn't grow to huge proportions the way Bonds head did.

imapotato asked for logic. that flies in the face of it.
body size is not a reliable source for spotting substance use; substance use does not change one's body in one particular manner.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

A-Rod came into the league for a cup of coffee at 19. His first full season was the year he turned 21. That gives him a head start on everyone but Griffey, Aaron, Mathews, Ott and Foxx to name a few. Until coming to the Yankees he played in the Kingdome until it was imploded and then after a year went to Texas. Both were hitter's parks. Given these two favorable circumstances it's not surprising that he is at or about the head of the list for HR by age.

If we go by seasonal age A-Rod was 18 when he debuted in 1994 and he was 20 in 1996. Though he just turned 32 the 2007 season is considered his age 31 season since his birthday is after July 1st. He's out to this huge HR pace because great hitter's parks and he's been remarkably consistent, usually hitting 40-45 HRs. Plus he got a 57 and 52 HR season and 2007 will probably be his third 50+ HR season. When keep hitting 45-50 HRs over a long period the HR total is going to start piling up.


As for his size. It's far from unusual, if not natural, for a man to "fill out" during his twenties. That doesn't mean people who do aren't helping the process along, but in and of itself it is nothing to arouse suspicion.
a-Rod doesn't look huge to me. He seems to put on a few pounds like Vlad Guererro has put on a few pounds in his 30s.

[west coast orange and black]

"There is no reason to suspect A-rod used PEDs"

this one always cracks me up.

this era is commonly referred to as "the steroid era".
because the percentage of users is so high, nearly all players are suspect. rodriguez does not get a pass simply because he has not been "linked" to a public story or scandal.

i am certain that we all have at least a mental list of those we believe to have used.
how many of those players have been "linked" to story or scandal?

i'll take my answer off the air.

[SamtheBravesFan]

Yeah, I'm sure we all have our idea who is using if we think about it. But I don't have any ideas, because I don't particularly care for being cynical in that manner. Call me a denier if you wish, but I'd rather not think about it too hard.

[west coast orange and black]

edmondsfan#1: Bonds strength coach admitted to giving Bonds steroids...

no, bonds' strength coach did not admit to supplying bonds with substances.
and neither did bonds' trainer, greg anderson.

it is believed by federal investigators that the voice on a secretly recorded tape is that of anderson. the feds allege that on that tape anderson boasts of giving performance enhancing substances to bonds that are undetectable.

anderson has not admitted that he supplied bonds with substances.
anderson is in prison because he has steadfastly refused to testify against bonds.
no "admittance", which most infer as legal testimony.

[PVNICK]

edmondsfan#1: Bonds strength coach admitted to giving Bonds steroids...

no, bonds' strength coach did not admit to supplying bonds with substances.
and neither did bonds' trainer, greg anderson.

it is believed by federal investigators that the voice on a secretly recorded tape is that of anderson. the feds allege that on that tape anderson boasts of giving performance enhancing substances to bonds that are undetectable.

anderson has not admitted that he supplied bonds with substances.
anderson is in prison because he has steadfastly refused to testify against bonds.
no "admittance", which most infer as legal testimony.

You're really microparsing this one.

[bigtime39]

We're having this discussion because Barry Bonds was so blatant in the changes he made to himself after 1999. We have less reason to suspect Pay-Rod because he hasn't had a Michelin Man year.
I have no personal evidence on either. Personally, I'm past the point of worrying about it. It is what it is. I'd love to have either man's bank account, but not if it meant being saddled with either man's personality.

[west coast orange and black]

You're really microparsing this one.

are you admitting that, or simply stating your opinion? :D

dude, lots of misinformation re bonds + steroids when there is no need.

[west coast orange and black]

bigtime39: We have less reason to suspect [Rodriguez] because he hasn't had a Michelin Man year.

so what about marvin benard?

i do like your "it is what it is", though. :applaud:

[RubeBaker]

I can think of 2 good reasons why A-Rod does not face steroid allegations:

1) He's had power his whole career. This isn't somebody who hit 10-15 homers a year, then suddenly hittning 40+ a la Rafael Pameiro or Brady Anderson.

2) He's one of the healthiest players out there. When a player's muscles get too big for their frame, they start to come apart like a lego house in the hands of a three year old, just look at Conseco, Giambi, and Bonds as well. A-Rod played only 129 games in 1999, but has never played in fewer than 140besides that 1 year. In fact, he missed only 1 game total in all 3 years he played in Texas, and had a 162 game season with the Yanks as well in 2005. The fact that he is so healthy is a pretty good indication that he is clean.

[bigtime39]

bigtime39: We have less reason to suspect [Rodriguez] because he hasn't had a Michelin Man year.

so what about marvin benard?

i do like your "it is what it is", though. :applaud:

Perhaps I should have said "less visual reason" to suspect him! :laugh

[DodgerBlue8188]

Most home runs A-Rod has ever his is 58 I believe. He also looks about the same as he did when he came up in the Seattle organization. His batting averaged his rookie year proved he was a great hitter. Add that to power and you can see why he hit a lot of home runs.

Barry Bonds was averaged size for a guy in his mid 30's. Then at 40 he just suddenly gets huge.

[BoofBonser26]

edmondsfan#1: Bonds strength coach admitted to giving Bonds steroids...

no, bonds' strength coach did not admit to supplying bonds with substances.
and neither did bonds' trainer, greg anderson.

it is believed by federal investigators that the voice on a secretly recorded tape is that of anderson. the feds allege that on that tape anderson boasts of giving performance enhancing substances to bonds that are undetectable.

anderson has not admitted that he supplied bonds with substances.
anderson is in prison because he has steadfastly refused to testify against bonds.
no "admittance", which most infer as legal testimony.
Thank you, WCOAB, for actually explaining and sourcing your usual spinning of a story. Which, in this case, you're correct about.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

This is for the Barry Bonds cheated...asterisk...blah blah blah fan

Steroids were not illegal in baseball when Bonds allegedly took them
BUT beer was illegal in the 20's when Ruth liked to chug them down

Nothing like a few beers or a night on the town and lots of beers to make one perform better.

So thats how Ruth did it.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

This is kind of silly isn't it, I think so. I don't think AROD used steroids but that does no mean he did not. He has been a great player right from the start but that also does not mean he never used steroids, could have been right from the start.

Well I guess we could take any player and say maybe he used steroids and we could be correct, I'm speaking of the "maybe" part.

With all that said why are some miffed because they run into opposition when they throw out AROD's name, why are so many all over Bonds.

Is it that hard to understand. No one proved Bonds used steroids but there are reasons why many believed he did.

His trainer is in jail and admitted to supplying steroids to some athletes. Does that mean he supplied Barry with some, no it does not and in fact he said he never did. Could be telling the truth but how about using some common sense, if he did would he admit it.

Barry supposedly used a cream and said he never "knowingly " used a steroid. That word knowingly led some to believe that he and his lawyers were building a case in the event it was proven he did. He could then say he wasn't lying he was not aware that he was supplied with steroids.

Last he went on a 5 season rampage at an age when most level off or decline. An explosion after the age of 36 that challenged any 3 year peak that Babe Ruth and Ted Williams put up when they were a lot younger than Barry, like in their prime.

There it is. Hey, we could find out that maybe AROD did use steroids, I don't think he did.

The whole point of the above, it's a lot easier to see why Barry is more suspect than AROD.

[west coast orange and black]

boofbonser26: Thank you, WCOAB, for actually explaining and sourcing your usual spinning of a story. Which, in this case, you're correct about.

yer welcome. what else do you wanna know?

[west coast orange and black]

shoeless: The whole point of the above, it's a lot easier to see why Barry is more suspect than AROD.

i simply do not understand the incessant practice of comparing any particular player to bonds when discussing substances.
no player will be suspect once bonds retires?

[natsnsoxfan]

If they randomly bulk up and start hitting homeruns at an insane rate when they should be declining they will. Fact of the matter is that Bonds is the only active players with major allegations and where it had a clear and profound affect on his ability and stats, coupled with the fact that he, probably illegally, broke the most famous and hallowed record in American sports.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

shoeless: The whole point of the above, it's a lot easier to see why Barry is more suspect than AROD.

i simply do not understand the incessant practice of comparing any particular player to bonds when discussing substances.
no player will be suspect once bonds retires?

For sure some will be suspect even with Barry gone. I do think the steroid talk will diminish a great deal in the next few years... unless something in the way of a hugh revelation with names mentioned and some proof.

It just has to fade away with time, the talk that is. Fans won't like the fact that there are still some users, will always be the suspicion that steroids remain in the game, but what can be done about it, really nothing. It won't be accepted but talking it to death is useless.

[Imapotato]

I don't understand what you're looking for; in your initial post, I see no logic as might be defined by Aristotle or anyone with a decent education, only a senseless rant.

The fact that A-Rod is a great home run hitter does not mean he used steroids--it just signals that he is as talented, if not more so, than players who have cheated to achieve monstrous numbers. There is more to "logic" than comparing home run rates.

Then that is a 'you' problem in regards to reading comprehension.

You are not alone...a couple others here are using the media to nail Bonds...when in fact even the federal government cannot find him guilty.

I guess because Bonds is a jerk to media people, and they hold a grudge and potray him as the worlds biggest jerk (which is far from the truth) that is 'logic'

Nice...

So steroids made Bonds hit those HRs, but Rodriguez hits them with no steroids.

Rodriguez hits HRs because he is talented, but Bonds does not hit them on talent, we already surmised he is guilty and steroids helped him

Yea, yea...ok

That's YOUR logic...

Nice to know condescending jerks are still the majority on these forums, well you get what you give Mr. decent education

[Imapotato]

*sigh* Does it really have to be spelled out for you?

Bonds:
Rumors swirl about Bond's on PEDs --> Bond's personal trainer arrested in steroid scandel --> Bond's investigated by Fed's for multilple allegetions --> Two writers write a detailed book on Bond's "indescretions"--> Leaked grand-jury testimony appears to contain an admission that steroids were inadverently used --> Bond's is 43 years old and still one of the most feared hitters in the game --> Bond's probably used PEDs

A-rod:
. --> . --> There is no reason to suspect A-rod used PEDs



Sorry, I don't know if I got the chronology right for either person (A-rod's was particularly difficult) and I may have skipped a few logical steps, but - shocking as it is - that is the logical reason people suspect Bond's of using PED's and not A-rod.


*SIGH*

All I see is people using the same arguement against Bonds and a slew of excuses for Rodriguez

They are all hypocritical.

Plus they is NO evidence whatsoever that steroids will make you hit such and such HRs

it's ludicrous because you STILL haven't answered the question that is in the 1st paragraph...the reason is because its a trap and cannot be answered using the type of logic that the Bond detractors use

IF steroids is the reason Bonds HR is tainted, therefore Steroids=HRS
Then WHY is Rodriguez, who hit 500 Hrs at such a young age exempt from even a a raised eyebrow?

Logically if one states Bonds hit a lot of those HRs because of a drug then Rodriguez must have hit a lot of those HRs from a drug, as with many HR hitters today.

So therefore you cannot explain the question logically, because there is no logic involved in you fans who trash Bonds right and left

Because Steroids didn't help him hit 1 freaking HR...
just like it doesn't help anyone else

[BoofBonser26]

IF steroids is the reason Bonds HR is tainted, therefore Steroids=HRS
Then WHY is Rodriguez, who hit 500 Hrs at such a young age exempt from even a a raised eyebrow?
So are we going to suspect Jimmie Foxx because he got to 500 at such a young age (33)?

According to your logic, we should.

[Imapotato]

So are we going to suspect Jimmie Foxx because he got to 500 at such a young age (33)?

According to your logic, we should.

WOW...how can you misintepret something I have said over and over

Not MY logic, this is the people who have an unhealthy despise for Bonds' logic

MY logic states that Bonds hit those HRs because he has great hand eye coordination and a great level swing with the advantages I stated on my 1st post (i.e. expansion, better technology, etc.) during the twilight of his career that he did NOT have at the beginning

Tired of people not reading and jumping to their own conclusions...some things never change

and I have 8 popups from one post...insane baseball fever, just insane

[Johnny Evers]

Then that is a 'you' problem in regards to reading comprehension.

You are not alone...a couple others here are using the media to nail Bonds...when in fact even the federal government cannot find him guilty.

I guess because Bonds is a jerk to media people, and they hold a grudge and potray him as the worlds biggest jerk (which is far from the truth) that is 'logic'

Nice...

So steroids made Bonds hit those HRs, but Rodriguez hits them with nosteroids.

Rodriguez hits HRs because he is talented, but Bonds does not hit them on talent, we already surmised he is guilty and steroids helped him

Yea, yea...ok

That's YOUR logic...

Nice to know condescending jerks are still the majority on these forums, well you get what you give Mr. decent education

I almost feel insulted. The argument of the majority of fans in this thread who took a minute to think about it is that Rodriguez is an extremely gifted ballplayer, the kind of hitter who comes around once every generation. This isn't to say that Bonds wasn't a great hitter--I contend that even if he didn't use steroids he'd be considered in (at least) the top 20 all-time.

But, the fact is that there is a mountain of evidence against Bonds, indicating that he used steroids. If this still hasn't sunk in after countless news stories and the publication of Game of Shadows, then I just don't know. All that we have on A-Rod is a whisper from Jose Canseco, which means absolutely nothing.

By your logic, every modern player who managed to crank 40 home runs used steroids; this means Griffey, Ortiz, Thome, Berkman, Ramirez, Andruw Jones, Pujols, Dunn. Are you ready to say that all of those eight players used steroids? Besides being on another planet, like Ted Williams was in his day, why is Rodriguez so unique? I understand that you probably feel that this near witch-hunt of Bonds is unjust when other sluggers are guilty...but A-Rod isn't one of them.

[Johnny Evers]

MY logic states that Bonds hit those HRs because he has great hand eye coordination and a great level swing with the advantages I stated on my 1st post (i.e. expansion, better technology, etc.) during the twilight of his career that he did NOT have at the beginning


I'm a bit confused: are you of the opinion that A-Rod, like Bonds, used steroids, or that Bonds didn't? Either way, good luck.

[west coast orange and black]

johnny evers: All that we have on A-Rod is a whisper from Jose Canseco, which means absolutely nothing .... but A-Rod isn't one of them.

amongst players and retired players canseco's voice has been the loudest in public, yer right.
but, what has you convinced that rodriguez has not used?

[Johnny Evers]

johnny evers: All that we have on A-Rod is a whisper from Jose Canseco, which means absolutely nothing .... but A-Rod isn't one of them.

amongst players and retired players canseco's voice has been the loudest in public, yer right.
but, what has you convinced that rodriguez has not used?

There are a few reasons why I don't believe A-Rod used steroids, already voiced by various people in this thread. But briefly:

1) The lack of evidence against him.

2) His career performance pattern has been similar to other great hitters, unlike Bonds's. The fact that he's good does not mean that he's juicing.

3) He has gotten larger, but it's common for players to fill out as they get older--Rodriguez wasn't going to remain the wiry 21 year old shortstop forever.

I think that my first point is most persuasive. Any talk of Rodriguez and steroid use is just speculation, which, to me, means absolutely nothing.

[Imapotato]

I'm a bit confused: are you of the opinion that A-Rod, like Bonds, used steroids, or that Bonds didn't? Either way, good luck.

BANGING MY HEAD

No, I have stated quite clearly that no "magic pill" either Steroids or the blue pill from the Matrix will make you hit a HR

DESPITE what most Bond detractors state

Therefore using their log....nevermind I had an anyurism explaining this for the umpteenth time.

[west coast orange and black]

johnny evers: Griffey, Ortiz, Thome, Berkman, Ramirez, Andruw Jones, Pujols, Dunn.
Are you ready to say that all of those eight players used steroids?

simply flippin' it:
are you prepared to state that none of those 8 used?

[west coast orange and black]

wcoab: what has you convinced that rodriguez has not used?

johnny evers: 1) The lack of evidence against him .... is most persuasive
i imagine that that would be so - most players don't squeal in public.
but, there is lack of evidence against almost all players who positively tested positive.
please point to the evidence against the players who tested positive but whose names, per work agreement, have not been released. try figuring out all of the players whom you believe to have not used. see what i mean?
all i'm saying is that all players are under suspicion. even marvin benard and armando rios.

2) His career performance pattern has been similar to other great hitters, unlike Bonds's. The fact that he's good does not mean that he's juicing.
only a fool would point to rodriguez's numbers as concrete proof.
and, leave bonds out of your argument unless you believe that bonds is the only one to use.

3) He has gotten larger, but it's common for players to fill out as they get older--Rodriguez wasn't going to remain the wiry 21 year old shortstop forever.
only a fool would point to rodriguez's size...

[natsnsoxfan]

johnny evers: All that we have on A-Rod is a whisper from Jose Canseco, which means absolutely nothing .... but A-Rod isn't one of them.

amongst players and retired players canseco's voice has been the loudest in public, yer right.
but, what has you convinced that rodriguez has not used?

The fact that I have no reason to be convinced that he has and I have numerous reasons to be convinced that Bonds has.

This thread is a perfect example of what steroids has done to baseball. A-Rod is an extremely gifted ballplayer and has a chance to be the best ever, yet because of the era he played in he, and no one else, is exempt from suspicion even if there is no reason to believe they have done anything.

[Johnny Evers]

johnny evers: Griffey, Ortiz, Thome, Berkman, Ramirez, Andruw Jones, Pujols, Dunn.
Are you ready to say that all of those eight players used steroids?

simply flippin' it:
are you prepared to state that none of those 8 used?

No.


No, I have stated quite clearly that no "magic pill" either Steroids or the blue pill from the Matrix will make you hit a HR


I still don't understand your point. Are you arguing that steroids don't have a concrete effect on performance? That's an interesting position, one notably entertained by J.C. Bradbury (http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/category/steroids/). There may be some truth to that idea, I have no opinion personally.


This thread is a perfect example of what steroids has done to baseball. A-Rod is an extremely gifted ballplayer and has a chance to be the best ever, yet because of the era he played in he, and no one else, is exempt from suspicion even if there is no reason to believe they have done anything.

Well said.

[Skin & Bones]

If they randomly bulk up and start hitting homeruns at an insane rate when they should be declining they will. Fact of the matter is that Bonds is the only active players with major allegations and where it had a clear and profound affect on his ability and stats, coupled with the fact that he, probably illegally, broke the most famous and hallowed record in American sports.

It was only "clear" because of the time he used it. I would argue that an old player like Bonds recieved less of a benefit than a young steroid user ( who's already in their physical prime).

I think its quite possible that if young Barry took steroids, he would have eclipsed the .400 BA mark. That's how much talent the man has.

[SamtheBravesFan]

Well, we can't prove that any player hasn't used steroids. It's impossible. We can only try to prove if someone has used them. That seems like an almost impossible task just looking at physiques and stats.

[natsnsoxfan]

Bonds has a lot more to suggest steroid use than stats and body size though.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Bonds has a lot more to suggest steroid use than stats and body size though.

Exactly, thats the difference between Bonds and Arod. Could AROD appear to be squeaky clean and still have used steroids..... yes the answer of course is yes. We could say that about anyone in the game, anyone, but it's events in Bonds life and career that have put the target on his back, thats the big difference.

I have a problem with some who keep harping on AROD,why not take a shot at him, don't single out Barry.

Use a little common sense. Can we try it again...... AROD could be a user, any player in the game "could be" a user but from what we have heard and learned over the last few years make Barry more suspect than AROD, sounds simple to me.

[BoofBonser26]

BANGING MY HEAD

No, I have stated quite clearly that no "magic pill" either Steroids or the blue pill from the Matrix will make you hit a HR

DESPITE what most Bond detractors state

Therefore using their log....nevermind I had an anyurism explaining this for the umpteenth time.
So you are saying that those who state Bonds used steroids because of his late career surge shouldn't extempt A-Rod because he could have been using them since the beginning of his career?

If so, you'd do well to read this thread. For short, I'll say it again:

(Most) fans aren't stupid enough to simply say "steroids=HRs." And that is why they don't suspect A-Rod. That and the millions of other reasons given by excellent posters in this thread.

[Mariano_Rivera]

This is for the Barry Bonds cheated...asterisk...blah blah blah fan

So Alex hits his 500th...fastest to do it
Bonds has been in the league 22 years...finally reaches 756 HRs

Alex is on pace to bypass that record...one that Bonds 'cheated' to get to, allegedly

So how come Alex is considered 'clean' while Bonds cheated?

I just don't understand how you can use logic to state that one broke a record using Steroids while one hits 500 at 32 and not say that Steroids helped him...using logic

Maybe there is something else...like I don't know...the era in which they played

So instead of following someone else's misguided ideals on Bonds...how about you find similarities between the 2

Smaller strikezone
Better workout/nutrition
harder balls that travel further (proven)
smaller ballparks repalcing big cookie cutters
4 new teams due to expansion
better bat technology...I have a maple bat...it adds 20-50ft to balls I hit from my old bat. bigger sweet spot, just as light as Ash
and many more...


If there was a magic pill that made one a better ball player I'd be on the Phillies playing Catcher rather then telling you the truth.

BTW, 9 out of 10 times if the government is after you like they are with Bonds...you are going down. So why has Bonds been 'lucky' so far?
Even with a book denouncing him???

Innoncent until proven guilty...but even then

Steroids were not illegal in baseball when Bonds allegedly took them
BUT beer was illegal in the 20's when Ruth liked to chug them down

Steroids helped Bonds because he used them

Steroids didn't help A-Rod because he din't use them

That makes sense right?

[skinhead87]

how can you compare a-rod and bonds? there is no comparison. no one hits 3-4 times more at such a late age as bonds. i dont care how much you calculate expansion and technology into the equation. personally, his personal trainer being jailed is evidence enough for me that he should be investigated further. you would think that since the general consensus of the american public and its media is that barry bonds is suspect of using would be evidence enough credible to darken his HR king title. although, ive never heard yet one story about a-rod. are you saying that all of those people are possibly blind to some logical path of thought concerning a-rod's "alleged" steroid use?

p.s. i think this thread should be locked. steroids are killing baseball, but not as much as the discussions about "who did use and who didnt". just enjoy the game, those guilty will receive whats theirs.

[cardsfanatic]

Here, I'll take a crack at explaining this logically.

For starters:

Every generation, a few truly great players come around. From Ted Williams, Babe Ruth and Willie Mays to the rest. Alex Rodriguez is one of those players. So was Barry Bonds.

Secondly:

Weight gain and muscle gain is natural throughout your 20's. A male's body isn't typically fully devloped until his mid-20's and even past then, bones widen and broaden. So, A-Rod's weight gain is fully understandable. There are a lot of other players not named A-Rod who have gained weight from the time they entered the league as a fresh faced rookie, too. I'm sure Griffey (the poster boy for all the "well, at least he did is clean!" camp) has gained weight too. In fact, I know he has. He is noticeably bigger than when he was a skinny 19 year old in Seattle. Bonds at age 30 was bigger than when he was a tiny little OF'er in 1986 too. No one batted an eyelash. It's natural. Hell, as I've entered my late 20's my shoulders are broader and I've put on 10-15 lbs from when I was a trim 18 year old. I suppose I'm on steroids too?

The key point here is that A-Rod's weight gain is fully natural and should be expected of _all_ players as they age. Bonds weight gain from ages 28-32 was all fine and good too.

The key distinction here? Bonds put on a ton of muscle in his extremely late 30's. Now, _THAT_ is not natural. _THAT_ is what got everyone talking about the steroid usage in baseball.

Now, I don't particularly care who did and didn't use steroids. As I've said many times before. It's not a big issue to me. However, to compare A-Rod's weight gain to Bond's late 30's muscle gain is ridiculous. Every single male on the planet gets bigger as they progress through their 20's into their early 30's... what they don't do is go through puberty again at age 38. Which Bonds did.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Here, I'll take a crack at explaining this logically.

For starters:

Every generation, a few truly great players come around. From Ted Williams, Babe Ruth and Willie Mays to the rest. Alex Rodriguez is one of those players. So was Barry Bonds.

Secondly:

Weight gain and muscle gain is natural throughout your 20's. A male's body isn't typically fully devloped until his mid-20's and even past then, bones widen and broaden. So, A-Rod's weight gain is fully understandable. There are a lot of other players not named A-Rod who have gained weight from the time they entered the league as a fresh faced rookie, too. I'm sure Griffey (the poster boy for all the "well, at least he did is clean!" camp) has gained weight too. In fact, I know he has. He is noticeably bigger than when he was a skinny 19 year old in Seattle. Bonds at age 30 was bigger than when he was a tiny little OF'er in 1986 too. No one batted an eyelash. It's natural. Hell, as I've entered my late 20's my shoulders are broader and I've put on 10-15 lbs from when I was a trim 18 year old. I suppose I'm on steroids too?

The key point here is that A-Rod's weight gain is fully natural and should be expected of _all_ players as they age. Bonds weight gain from ages 28-32 was all fine and good too.

The key distinction here? Bonds put on a ton of muscle in his extremely late 30's. Now, _THAT_ is not natural. _THAT_ is what got everyone talking about the steroid usage in baseball.

Now, I don't particularly care who did and didn't use steroids. As I've said many times before. It's not a big issue to me. However, to compare A-Rod's weight gain to Bond's late 30's muscle gain is ridiculous. Every single male on the planet gets bigger as they progress through their 20's into their early 30's... what they don't do is go through puberty again at age 38. Which Bonds did.
Women put on weight as well as they age. Look at what happened to Tyra Banks. She entered he 30s, her body filled out some and she got hammered for being "fat"!

[YankeeDJW]

*SIGH*

That may be the most intelligent thing you've said in the thread so far. Here’s why:

All I see is people using the same arguement against Bonds and a slew of excuses for Rodriguez

Maybe because there is a strong argument against Bond's and basically no argument against A-rod. I'm trying to dumb this down enough for you, but you couldn't even comprehend my last post and I really don't know how to make it any easier.


Plus they is NO evidence whatsoever that steroids will make you hit such and such HRs

But there is evidence that PED's can increase strength, speed, stamina and several other athletic capabilities. So if would follow - logically - that PED's help you hit HR's.

it's ludicrous because you STILL haven't answered the question that is in the 1st paragraph...

Unbelievable. I don't even think you know what you wrote. Let's go back and look, shall we?

"So how come Alex is considered 'clean' while Bonds cheated?"
I already answered this in my first reply, and then again above. There is a mountain of evidence against Bond's and nothing against A-rod. That doesn't mean that Bond's did steroids and A-rod didn't, but that's not what you asked. You asked why one is "considered" clean and one isn't. "Consider" means to regard, believe, or suppose. It is not a statement of fact.

"I just don't understand how you can use logic to state that one broke a record using Steroids while one hits 500 at 32 and not say that Steroids helped him...using logic"
I'm not surprised that you don't understand because you have no clue what logic is. Let's go back to 5th grade, shall we?

Frogs eat flies. Kermit is a frog --> Kermit eats flies.
Easy, right?

Now let's look at another one. This one is a little more difficult:
Frogs eat flies. Kermit is a frog. Kermit takes steroids -/-> All frogs take steroids.
Frogs eat flies. Kermit's brother is a frog --> Kermits brother eats flies.
Frogs eat flies. Kermit's brother is a frog. Kermits brother doesn't use steroids -/-> All frogs don't use steroids


Plug this anaolgy into my nifty baseball translator and I get:
Two player's hit lots of HR's. Bonds hits lots of HR's. Bonds uses (hypothetically) steroids. -/-> Both players use steroids
Two player's hit lots of HR's. A-rod hits lots of HR's. A-rod doesn't use (hypothetically) steroids. -/-> Both players don't use steroids

Now that you have a least a miniscule grasp of what logic is, I would like to point out the flaws in your argument. Unfortunately, I think we both have something in common: Neither of us understands what your argument is.


the reason is because its a trap
Oohhh, you got me…

and cannot be answered using the type of logic that the Bond detractors use
I’ll be the first of the Bonds detractors to apologize for using proper logic. Maybe we could throw a bunch of logical fallacies together like you and come to a different conclusion.

IF steroids is the reason Bonds HR is tainted, therefore Steroids=HRS
Then WHY is Rodriguez, who hit 500 Hrs at such a young age exempt from even a a raised eyebrow?

Logically if one states Bonds hit a lot of those HRs because of a drug then Rodriguez must have hit a lot of those HRs from a drug, as with many HR hitters today.
Go read my frog analogy and rethink your “logic.” Here’s a clue though: you’re wrong.

So therefore you cannot explain the question logically, because there is no logic involved in you fans who trash Bonds right and left
The rest of us don’t live with Alice in Wonderland. Sorry.

Because Steroids didn't help him hit 1 freaking HR...
just like it doesn't help anyone else
Back up that statement please. Logically.


I spent almost half an hour and suffered throught one computer crash to type this response. Please show some respect for me and other readers and put some thought and intelligence into your next reply, otherwise I won't bother wasting my time on another absurd post.

[DoubleX]

One big thing in A-Rod's favor is that he's been extremely consistent in his career, without any sudden surges in offensive production. He put up a 160 OPS+ at the age of 20, and since then, his career high is 167 (done twice - though he should pass that this year). So if A-Rod's been doing steroids, he's likely been doing it since he was a teenager given that he's production has never abnormally leaped. Yeah, he did start hitting more homeruns when he moved to Texas, but that can be explained two-fold: One, he was coming into his prime - if the guy can hit 36 homeruns at age 20, 42 at age 22, it shouldn't be that surprising that he could hit 50+ at age 26; and two - Texas is a hitter's haven.

Additionally, A-Rod has been very durable in his career. Often, steroids can eventually cause a players body to wear down, with nagging injuries occuring because the muscles and joints can't deal with the added bulk and constant stress of baseball.

Finally, it would seem kind of counter-intuitive for a SS to want to add tons of bulk as such would likely limit his mobility.

This is not to say that A-Rod is definitively clean, as I believe everyone in the game is suspect, but I think there are a lot of reasons to believe that A-Rod is clean - he's been the same player since he broke in.

[cardsfanatic]

This is not to say that A-Rod is definitively clean, as I believe everyone in the game is suspect, but I think there are a lot of reasons to believe that A-Rod is clean - he's been the same player since he broke in.

That doesn't seem to matter when it comes to Mark McGwire... I mean, his entire career played out just like his rookie season, too. An average contact hitter with a solid eye and tons of power.

[natsnsoxfan]

That doesn't seem to matter when it comes to Mark McGwire... I mean, his entire career played out just like his rookie season, too. An average contact hitter with a solid eye and tons of power.

Umm, wow, ok. There is substantial evidence against Big Mac too, the substances that were in his locker, his "testimony" in Congress a few years ago, the fact that he peaked at the height of the steroid era. Its substantial evidence for almost everyone notable, Palmeiro being the exception, but they've all been convicted in the publics eye and with good reason and plenty of proof.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

That doesn't seem to matter when it comes to Mark McGwire... I mean, his entire career played out just like his rookie season, too. An average contact hitter with a solid eye and tons of power.


Mac had a spike just as Barry did, not as late in his career as Barry but he did show a real surge in 1996.

--------------AB--------Hr------------AB/HR ratio
1986-1995---3659------277--------------13.20
1996-2001---2528------306---------------8.26

That is some leap, cuts that already respectable 13.20 ratio in half, thats a real spike. I have considered that all of baseball got on the home run derby in the early to mid 1990's but Mac went way beyond that.

As for that 49 in 1987 Mac was not the only one pounding them out that season. MLB hit more than 4400 home runs that season, way over the previous season.

1985 one hitter with 40 HR.
1986 one hitter with 40 hr.
1987 four hitters with 40+---49-49-47-44
1988 one hitter with 42
1989 one hitter with 47

You can see in the two years before and after 1987 there was a total of 4 hitters with 40 or more. In that one season 1987 there were 4 hitters with 40 or more.

AROD has been consistant, unlike Bonds and Mac.
The point, just because AROD has been steady dioes not mean he took no steroids.
The fact that Mac and Barry spiked does not mean they did use steroids.
Thats not what the debate is about, it's about who "appears" to be more suspect.

No one is picking on Mac or Barry, only saying that events in their career made them more suspect.

[PVNICK]

Didn't McGwire keep andro in his locker? It may not have been against the rules or "technically" a steroid, but it might as well have been.

[west coast orange and black]

wcoab: johnny evers: griffey, ortiz, thome, berkman, ramirez, andruw jones, pujols, dunn.
are you ready to say that all of those eight players used steroids?

simply flippin' it:
are you prepared to state that none of those 8 used?

johnny evers: No.

then how is it that you are so certain that rodriguez has not ever used?
do you agree that physical size and numbers are not in themselves indicators? and, even-keel, non-spiking numbers do not indicate that substances have not been used, as there are many different substances and, substances affect different people in different degrees.

[west coast orange and black]

johnny evers: All that we have on A-Rod is a whisper from Jose Canseco, which means absolutely nothing .... but A-Rod isn't one of them.

wcoab. amongst players and retired players canseco's voice has been the loudest in public, yer right.
but, what has you convinced that rodriguez has not used?

natsnsoxfan: The fact that I have no reason to be convinced that he has and I have numerous reasons to be convinced that Bonds has.

This thread is a perfect example of what steroids has done to baseball. A-Rod is an extremely gifted ballplayer and has a chance to be the best ever, yet because of the era he played in he, and no one else, is exempt from suspicion even if there is no reason to believe they have done anything.

again with including bonds in the discussion. what's up with that? alex rodriguez is the topic.

not many fans were pointing at the summer spectacle of '98 crying foul. most embraced mcgwire and sosa and their home runs because most of 'em had no idea what was going on behind the scenes. it strikes me funny that so many fans now state that they "knew all along"... the way that 100,000 brag "i was there" to witness an event in a forum that holds but 45,000.

i am not challenging whether rodriguez is immensely talented. i am challenging the notion that some players get a free pass while knowing that physique and numbers are not indicators.

[natsnsoxfan]

How is A-Rod getting a free pass? It can't be considered a free pass if there is no reason to believe hes done anything. Thats not to say he hasn't, maybe he has, but theres no reason to believe he has, there is NO evidence against him, not a SINGLE SHRED of evidence.

[PVNICK]

It's not like A-Rod's name has come up in the BALCO case.

[west coast orange and black]

what was the "evidence" when red sox fans chanted "steroids" at canseco 18 years ago?
it seems that fans need "proof" only for some/certain players.

balco was the big dog, but not the only supplier.
balco has since been replaced.

[PVNICK]

what was the "evidence" when red sox fans chanted "steroids" at canseco 18 years ago?
it seems that fans need "proof" only for some/certain players.

balco was the dig dog, but not the only supplier.
balco has since been replaced. Hindsight being 20/20 it appears the fans were on the money with Canseco.

[west coast orange and black]

"evidence" has been produced to back up the claim that rodriguez has not used.
griffey and pujols have benefitted from much of this same "evidence".
the "evidence", though, is what is not present, rather than what is.

[west coast orange and black]

pvnick: Hindsight being 20/20 it appears the fans were on the money with Canseco.

what you say is correct, but also a dodge that many fans let some players skate while at the same time needing "evidence" to point fingers.

[west coast orange and black]

johnny evers: are you of the opinion that A-Rod, like Bonds, used steroids, or that Bonds didn't?

q1: why are these the only 2 options?

q2: why continue to include bonds when discussing rodriguez?

[ssbguyincognito]

After being PMed by west coast, just thought I'd include my $.02.

Regarding A-rod, while he hits HRs at prolific rates, and his march to 800 HRs is unprecedented, everyone (even Red Sox fans) will likely agree he didn't use steroids. I can think of a few reasons why:

1. There's no large and unnatural jump in power, especially HR power. We see this with Bonds, Mcgwire, Sosa, and Palmeiro. The truth is, A-rod starting hitting HRs at the age of 21, continued to hit them well, went to Texas and hit them even better (that's accounted for by the ballpark), went to NYY and hits them well still.

2. He's never been linked to anyone who used or supplied steroids.

3. He certainly doesn't look like he used steroids. Basically, he doesn't have the physique of a bodybuilder who happens to play baseball.

4. There's no unnatural or large jumps in body size.

[west coast orange and black]

how does, say, palmeiro fit into your 4 points, ssbguy - tidily? not at all? somewhere in between?
i selected palmeiro because he tested positive.
select any player who has tested postive, though, for your 4-point analysis.

all others are asked to do the same.

[skinhead87]

johnny evers: are you of the opinion that A-Rod, like Bonds, used steroids, or that Bonds didn't?

q1: why are these the only 2 options?

q2: why continue to include bonds when discussing rodriguez?

this is the first post in which the thread starter used Barry Bonds as an example, which is why it is always relevant.

This is for the Barry Bonds cheated...asterisk...blah blah blah fan


the point of this disucussion is why i sBonds guilty and not A-rod and i believe the facts have already been stated repeatedly by several posters including myself. thank you.

[west coast orange and black]

...i believe the facts have already been stated repeatedly by several posters including myself.

facts such as these?
mariano rivera: steroids helped bonds because he used them; steroids didn't help [rodriguez] because he din't use them

[west coast orange and black]

ssbguyincognito, according to you, those who have been known to test positive oughtta be linked to either someone "who used or supplied steroids". is this correct?

if yes, care to list 'em?