Top 10 Hitters of the 2007 Season (So Far) [Archive]

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Barry(US)Bonds

08-07-2007, 11:34 AM

GiambiJuice

08-07-2007, 11:57 AM

Here is my list of the top 10 hitters in 2007 so far...give me your lists!...let's debate

1) Miguel Cabrera
2) Alex Rodriguez
3) Magglio Ordonez
4) Chipper Jones
5) Hanley Ramirez
6) Barry Bonds
7) David Ortiz
8) Chase Utley
9) Albert Pujols
10) Jorge Posada

Pretty good list, but I think we need to make some room for Matt Holliday and Prince Fielder. I'd probably replace Posada and Bonds. I know Bonds' OPS is through the roof, but that's mostly due to his rediculous amount of walks. I'm looking in terms of doing damage with the bat.

EDIT: Actually I'll keep Posada and replace Hanley.

Barry(US)Bonds

08-07-2007, 12:08 PM

Barry(US)Bonds

08-07-2007, 12:10 PM

Oh...and i gotta keep my boy Hanley if for no other reason than he leads the league in VORP (also 10th in OPS+)

GiambiJuice

08-07-2007, 12:15 PM

Oh...and i gotta keep my boy Hanley if for no other reason than he leads the league in VORP (also 10th in OPS+)

Hanley is having an awesome year for a SS and Posada is having a great year for a catcher, but I thought you were simply looking for the top 10 hitters this year, without defensive position in the equation.

GiambiJuice

08-07-2007, 12:17 PM

Bonds is second in the league in OPS+ and leads the league in EqA...he can't be left off...neither can Posada...for a catcher he is having a ridic year (7th in OPS+, 6th in VORP, 11th in EqA)...I feel you with holliday esp...he was very close to making my list...fielder?...i hear you...but naw

It's mainly a function of his walks, though. Prince is slugging 55 points higher and batting 18 points higher, hence he's a better "hitter" this year. Bonds has been a much better walker though.

cbenson5

08-07-2007, 12:20 PM

It's mainly a function of his walks, though. Prince is slugging 55 points higher and batting 18 points higher, hence he's a better "hitter" this year. Bonds has been a much better walker though.

He draws all of those walks because he is still one of the top hitters in the game. I believe that Bonds belongs on this list. My list would be very similar to (if not the same) as that of the thread creator.

Charles

GiambiJuice

08-07-2007, 12:26 PM

He draws all of those walks because he is still one of the top hitters in the game. I believe that Bonds belongs on this list. My list would be very similar to (if not the same) as that of the thread creator.

Charles

I don't follow your logic. This thread is not about the most feared hitters. It's about who have been the best hitters this season. PRince has HIT better than Bonds this year. Bonds has been better at getting on base.

Barry(US)Bonds

08-07-2007, 12:28 PM

It's mainly a function of his walks, though. Prince is slugging 55 points higher and batting 18 points higher, hence he's a better "hitter" this year. Bonds has been a much better walker though.

When I say hitter I mean the player the gives his team the greatest chance to score runs. Bonds does this better than fielder.

Also, it's hard to remove players from the position in which they play...you're right, though, I did say "hitter". In that case Posada is probably off the list, but I'm leaving him on b/c I meant "player excluding pitcher"...Posada's hitting performance is more impressive this year than Fielder's (in my opinion)

cbenson5

08-07-2007, 12:31 PM

I don't follow your logic. This thread is not about the most feared hitters. It's about who have been the best hitters this season. PRince has HIT better than Bonds this year. Bonds has been better at getting on base.

I consider getting on base as part of being a great hitter. I agree with Barry(US) Bond's definition of a [great] hitter.

Charles

Doctor Zizmor

08-07-2007, 12:31 PM

even though he's only played like 60 games, i think Ryan Braun should be on that list, dude is a hitting machine

GiambiJuice

08-07-2007, 12:31 PM

Posada's hitting performance is more impressive this year than Fielder's (in my opinion)

I agree. It is more impressive, coming from the catcher's spot.

Barry(US)Bonds

08-07-2007, 12:32 PM

even though he's only played like 60 games, i think Ryan Braun should be on that list, dude is a hitting machine

VERY good point...I was actually debating putting him on b/c his numbers are so good, but I just couldn't due to his lack of PT

Zito75

08-07-2007, 01:34 PM

538280

08-07-2007, 02:35 PM

It's mainly a function of his walks, though. Prince is slugging 55 points higher and batting 18 points higher, hence he's a better "hitter" this year. Bonds has been a much better walker though.

The goal of hitting is to generate runs for your team. Walks do that-and thus should be considered in a player's ability while hitting. Bonds has probably been of about the same value as Fielder as a hitter this year, better when he's been up, but he hasn't played nearly as much. If I want to win just this year, though, and I'm given a choice between Bonds and Fielder, I take Bonds. Getting on base half of the time results in a LOT of runs. There is no accurate model of run scoring that wouldn't say Bonds has been more productive in terms of rate than Fielder. If you don't believe the run modelers, you can even look at actual runs scored and RBI per out. Bonds has scored and driven in 107 runs, while making 205 outs for .522 per out. Fielder has driven in and scored 158 runs, while making 309 outs, .511 per out. That's despite Fielder playing for a much superior run scoring team, outside of him.

Barry(US)Bonds

08-07-2007, 03:31 PM

Matt Holiday leads the MAJORS in total bases... And sorry, Bonds isn't even in the top 20 this year. Too streaky.

Ummm...here's why Bonds is better

OPS+ = Holliday 149, Bonds 174
EqAve = Holliday .313 Bonds .362
OBP = Bonds .492, Holliday .399 (100 pts difference!!!)

Pitchers Obviously Think Bonds is More Dangerous

IBB = Bonds (34), Holliday (4)

Power? = AB/HR = Bonds (12.6), Holliday (20.8)

It's true Bonds doesn't play as much but that is really his only knock. When he plays he's better than Holliday...I'm not saying you can't make the case for Holliday being in the top 10, but to say Bonds isn't in the top 20 is laughable

ssbguyincognito

08-07-2007, 03:37 PM

There are two ways of looking at this. We can either ask, which hitter provides offense at the best rate, or which hitter has provided the most runs to his team so far?

The answer to the fisrt question, by far, is Bonds:

2007 Equivalent Average Leaders (adjusted to league)

Barry Bonds 0.362
Miguel Cabrera 0.342
Chipper Jones 0.340
Ryan Braun 0.337
Albert Pujols 0.330
Alex Rodriguez 0.329
Magglio Ordonez 0.329
Chase Utley 0.328
David Ortiz 0.327
Hanley Ramirez 0.325
Carlos Pena 0.323
Jorge Posada 0.321
Ryan Howard 0.320
Prince Fielder 0.318

The list is dominated, by far, by NL hitters. That's because the quality of hitting in the NL is a lot weaker than in the AL. So, if two people put up same numbers in both leagues, the NL hitter is more valuable offensively because he puts up more runs relative to his league, and thereby more wins to his team.

I think the better question is, which hitter has provided the most offense (runs) to his team so far? If you look at it this way, because Bonds doesn't play as much, he's not as valuable.

2007 Equivalent Runs Leaders (adjusted to league)

Miguel Cabrera 92.8
Alex Rodriguez 92.2
Hanley Ramirez 89.3
Albert Pujols 87.1
Prince Fielder 85.2
Chase Utley 84.0
Magglio Ordonez 83.0
David Wright 82.9
Jose Reyes 80.8
Vladimir Guerrero 79.2
David Ortiz 77.1
Grady Sizemore 76.4

This is a better list because it takes into accout playing time. Once again, it's dominated by NL hitters, just because the averaeg NL hitter is so bad. Personally, I'd like to rank all the hitters this year by EQA adjusted all-time (not to league), so they're all against the same baseline. But prospectus makes you pay for that.

John Shoemaker

08-07-2007, 03:42 PM

Pretty good list, but I think we need to make some room for Matt Holliday and Prince Fielder. I'd probably replace Posada and Bonds. I know Bonds' OPS is through the roof, but that's mostly due to his rediculous amount of walks. I'm looking in terms of doing damage with the bat.

EDIT: Actually I'll keep Posada and replace Hanley.

Isn't part of doing damage with the bat making the pitchers so afraid of your bat they don't give you anything to hit and walk you?

Barry(US)Bonds

08-07-2007, 03:50 PM

Well put incognito...I think it really depends on which you prefer...I tend to think of the best or most dangerous hitter as the guy that gives you the best chance to score runs when he's playing. That isn't to say I completely disregard the overall production of a player, but I personally weigh the rate more heavily. I always like to think: If player A was in a game against player B who would be better...great point and thanks for clarifying

SoxSon

08-07-2007, 04:10 PM

Getting on base half of the time results in a LOT of runs.

The Giants sure wish that were true. ;)

538280

08-07-2007, 06:12 PM

The Giants sure wish that were true. ;)

It has been true. Bonds' rate of runs scored per out is one of the best in the league.

ssbguyincognito

08-07-2007, 06:14 PM

It has been true. Bonds' rate of runs scored per out is one of the best in the league.

Look at the rest of Bonds lineup. Is there a worse lineup in baseball (sans Bonds)?

538280

08-07-2007, 06:19 PM

Look at the rest of Bonds lineup. Is there a worse lineup in baseball (sans Bonds)?

Correct-which makes Bonds' rates of runs scored and RBI even more impressive. The thing is that people try to point out often that if a player walks often it somehow invalidates his production. In my experience, nothing could be further from the truth. To refute that statement all you have to do is look at runs scored and RBI-based on actual game events and not calculation of the value of events. Walks are just as valuable as every play-by-play data study has revealed them to be-about 70-72% of a single. OPS underrates walks. It counts walks as 50% of a single. It double counts singles. OPS overrates singles hitters and underrates those hitters who walk frequently.

People perceive of walks of not taking some kind of skill, and they seek ways to discredit them and those players who draw a lot of value from them. The game data suggests otherwise, regardless of what those people "know".

I wouldn't place too much stock in BP's "adjusted for all time" numbers, BTW. It's based on how players transfer from other leagues. Especially in earlier leauges, one bad injury plagued season can skew the whole thing. Even today, there is rarely such a large sample that it can reveal anything significant. For today's games, I'd say the best way to look at league quality between NL/AL is interleauge games, and that I believe does indeed support that the AL is better. So that is a valid point, but I don't agree with BP's methods of quantifying it.

ElHalo

08-07-2007, 06:45 PM

Correct-which makes Bonds' rates of runs scored and RBI even more impressive. The thing is that people try to point out often that if a player walks often it somehow invalidates his production. In my experience, nothing could be further from the truth. To refute that statement all you have to do is look at runs scored and RBI-based on actual game events and not calculation of the value of events.

You sure about that? If Bonds manages to maintain his lead this year, he'll have led his league in walks 12 times in his career. He's led his league in runs scored... um... once. Sorry, but while it's awell and good for a player to be "plucky" and scrum out a walk every now and then, I can't possibly see why they should get credit because pitchers are too stupid to go after them. That's like saying that there's a whole lot of Waltons who are billionaires, so the Walton family as a whole must be full of fantastic business minds. Sorry; people don't always deserve credit for their successes.

G.Costanza

08-07-2007, 06:55 PM

ElHalo

08-07-2007, 06:58 PM

Me personally favors guys with the best numbers with runners in scorring position...................Im so sick of Utley its not funny, he plays in a little league field..... People just like him cuz hes white, true story.:silent:

Wow, really not a true story. Be honest with you, I didn't have any idea what his skin color was until you said that. But I knew he was the best second baseman in baseball.

ssbguyincognito

08-07-2007, 07:00 PM

I wouldn't place too much stock in BP's "adjusted for all time" numbers, BTW. It's based on how players transfer from other leagues. Especially in earlier leauges, one bad injury plagued season can skew the whole thing. Even today, there is rarely such a large sample that it can reveal anything significant. For today's games, I'd say the best way to look at league quality between NL/AL is interleauge games, and that I believe does indeed support that the AL is better. So that is a valid point, but I don't agree with BP's methods of quantifying it.

Good point. Then how do we quantify and compare offensive production between leagues?

G.Costanza

08-07-2007, 07:01 PM

YankeeDJW

08-07-2007, 07:13 PM

Me personally favors guys with the best numbers with runners in scorring position...................Im so sick of Utley its not funny, he plays in a little league field..... People just like him cuz hes white, true story.:silent:

I personally thinks that's ridiculous. I didn't even think about the fact that he was white until you brought it up. The reason people "like" him is because he is good and was having a great season. And I would say Reyes gets raved about more than Wright now anyway, so stop trying to make an issue where there is none.

G.Costanza

08-07-2007, 07:16 PM

SoxSon

08-07-2007, 08:06 PM

It has been true. Bonds' rate of runs scored per out is one of the best in the league.

As I said, the Giants would like to benefit from all those runs (and contrary to popular opinion, there's a whole team over there). My point was that Bonds's walks aren't doing much for the Giants collectively.

Barry(US)Bonds

08-07-2007, 08:53 PM

You sure about that? If Bonds manages to maintain his lead this year, he'll have led his league in walks 12 times in his career. He's led his league in runs scored... um... once. Sorry, but while it's awell and good for a player to be "plucky" and scrum out a walk every now and then, I can't possibly see why they should get credit because pitchers are too stupid to go after them. That's like saying that there's a whole lot of Waltons who are billionaires, so the Walton family as a whole must be full of fantastic business minds. Sorry; people don't always deserve credit for their successes.

Bonds is very good at producing runs...not necessarily scoring them (individually)...this is b/c individual runs scored is very dependent on your teammates (in the same way RBIs are)

-OBTW...the rest of the giants hitting is abysmal SoxSon...i guess you make a good point...one player can't do everything himself no matter how ridiculous his stats

o...and he just hit it

538280

08-08-2007, 06:50 PM

Good point. Then how do we quantify and compare offensive production between leagues?

Like I said for today's game, we have an easy way to compare the two leagues, look at interleague results. Before interleauge, I don't know that there's any clear way to do it though there are indicators. One indicator is how pitchers hit. Pitchers, obvioulsy, are so important in preventing runs that it doesn't matter how good they are at creating them. If baseball is improving, it should follow that those who don't work to improve a skill should continue to do worse and worse. Pitchers have hit worse and worse through the history of baseball, as you can see here (http://http://www.baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=877921&postcount=7).

#2 we can look at how the same players produced over time. We can take all the players who played in, for example, the 2000 National League and see if their performance improved or declined in the 2003 National League. This is all players, not just selected ones. A problem with this is that players age over time and often get worse so you could just conclude quality of play has improved and really what you are seeing is just evidence of aging. To control for that you can look at just players aged 25 to 29 where performance doesn't change that much, only a little bit. You can see a study of that at these two links:

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/measuring-the-change-in-league-quality/

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/measuring-the-change-in-league-quality-part-two/

And third is just to use your own knowledge of the game, and what you know about it. Talent pools have a big impact on quality of play-how many people the league is drawing from, and how well they're drawing from it. If the league isn't allowing blacks to play, that obviously isn't good for league quality. If they have haphazard scouting and little or no farm syste, that probably isn't good for league quality either.

538280

08-08-2007, 06:53 PM

As I said, the Giants would like to benefit from all those runs (and contrary to popular opinion, there's a whole team over there). My point was that Bonds's walks aren't doing much for the Giants collectively.

Sure, the Giants aren't winning. That doesn't really reflect on Bonds, though. One player can't do everything no matter how great he is. That Bonds' team isn't doing well doesn't mean how Bonds has hit this year hasn't been great.

538280

08-08-2007, 06:56 PM

You sure about that? If Bonds manages to maintain his lead this year, he'll have led his league in walks 12 times in his career. He's led his league in runs scored... um... once. Sorry, but while it's awell and good for a player to be "plucky" and scrum out a walk every now and then, I can't possibly see why they should get credit because pitchers are too stupid to go after them. That's like saying that there's a whole lot of Waltons who are billionaires, so the Walton family as a whole must be full of fantastic business minds. Sorry; people don't always deserve credit for their successes.

EH, every single statistical study would disagree with your opinion. Players clearly do have a consistent skill to walk, it's clearly not just a skill of the pitchers, it is for the hitters as well. Have you ever looked at the stats of hitters? It's not random what hitters walk-as it would be if it was just up to the pitcher.

-Kyle-

08-08-2007, 06:57 PM

Oh...and i gotta keep my boy Hanley if for no other reason than he leads the league in VORP (also 10th in OPS+)

Hes an awesome hitter. :highfive: He's 8th in Offensive Win Shares in the league, and a SS!

-Kyle-

08-08-2007, 07:01 PM

The fact that a white man didnt think about it is irrelevent to the issue, did you think about Columbus discovering America????????? And Wright has countless ad campaigns compared to Reyes has none, sop trying to downplay reality becuase of your ignorance and unacountability

Reyes gets a lot more media attention than Wright. Reyes steals a lot of bases...so he always comes up in espn highlight.

And when we learned about Colombus, we saw his picture in our textbook.

ElHalo

08-08-2007, 07:19 PM

EH, every single statistical study would disagree with your opinion. Players clearly do have a consistent skill to walk, it's clearly not just a skill of the pitchers, it is for the hitters as well. Have you ever looked at the stats of hitters? It's not random what hitters walk-as it would be if it was just up to the pitcher.

Just up to the pitcher? No, not just. But to a large extent. That's just reality.

holyroman

08-08-2007, 07:56 PM

Williamsburg2599

08-08-2007, 09:41 PM

are you drunk ? or 15 years old?

Comparing someone who makes a statement like that to a 15 year olds is an insult to 15 year olds.

FilthySheets

08-09-2007, 10:29 AM

1. A ROD
2. M CAB
3. Hanley Ramirez
4. Magglio
5. Bonds
6. Holliday
7. Prince Fielder
8. Utley
9. Grady Sizemore
10. Matsui

Honerable Mention
Rollins

Barry(US)Bonds

08-09-2007, 10:49 AM

I like the list and I love sizemore, but really?...I just don't think he deserves it so far this year

digglahhh

08-09-2007, 11:08 AM

^^^^Maybe not you, but I live in Philly, and how can you explain him being ten times more popular than Ryan, same thing with David Wright in New york, compared to Reyes, even though Reyes is ten times better of a ballplayer

I think it is a little deeper than that. Nobody is more willing than I up to bring up race on this board, but let's dissect this a bit.

Forget about the fact that Reyes is not nearly 10 times the player that Wright is. At his best, he is better, but Wright is a bonafide star too. They are both young studs at the dish and turning into very good defensive players. Reyes is incredibly fast, Wright in his own right has swiped 25 bags, getting caught only twice.

Anyway, the fact that David Wright is white, and speaks English as his first language makes him more marketable to a national audience. His "whiteness," really his American-ness, puts him in the public eye and gives him greater exposure. People eat what they are fed, if they are fed David Wright, they'll lap it up. I think there are a lot of peculiar ways in which race quietly works its way into sports, but I'm not buying your argument, "as is."

I live right by Shea, if you've ever been there, you know that is not a white neighborhood. Reyes jerseys outnumber Wright jerseys in West Queens.

Oh, and when did Yankee DJW state his race? Looks like you are doing a bit of race-based assuming yourself...

PVNICK

08-09-2007, 11:22 AM

It has been true. Bonds' rate of runs scored per out is one of the best in the league.

A more accurate measure would be runs per PA.

Zito75

08-09-2007, 11:56 AM

Ummm...here's why Bonds is better

OPS+ = Holliday 149, Bonds 174
EqAve = Holliday .313 Bonds .362
OBP = Bonds .492, Holliday .399 (100 pts difference!!!)

Pitchers Obviously Think Bonds is More Dangerous

IBB = Bonds (34), Holliday (4)

Power? = AB/HR = Bonds (12.6), Holliday (20.8)

It's true Bonds doesn't play as much but that is really his only knock. When he plays he's better than Holliday...I'm not saying you can't make the case for Holliday being in the top 10, but to say Bonds isn't in the top 20 is laughable

You've made a compelling argument and I think I was a little too emotional when I postd that thread... Bonds has put some great different numbers in different categories. Too bad it's not enough to help his team win the division.

And I should clarify- I can think of 20 other hitters I'd rather have if I had the opportunity to build a team... Other than Bonds.

Everyone has their own way of interpreting this which is great. To me, not having Holliday in the top 10 is laughable.

Barry(US)Bonds

08-09-2007, 12:21 PM

I can think of probably 50 players I'd like to have to build a team around other than Bonds...probably more. Bonds will only play for 3 more years at the most (and I believe this is a stretch)...Holliday is great and he is posting some good numbers...I hear you with Holliday

538280

08-09-2007, 01:05 PM

A more accurate measure would be runs per PA.

No, it wouldn't. Teams aren't given PAs to score runs. They're given outs to score runs.

And I should clarify- I can think of 20 other hitters I'd rather have if I had the opportunity to build a team... Other than Bonds.

Sure, because of his age and the fact that this might be his last year. But that doens't have anything to do with who has performed better this season.

EdmondsFan#1

08-09-2007, 01:25 PM

1. Miguel Cabrera
2. Alex Rodriguez
3. Magglio Ordonez
4. Hanley Ramirez
5. Chase Utley
6. Matt Holliday
7. Prince Fielder
8. Albert Pujols
9. Jorge Posada
10. Vladimir Guerrero

11. Ryan Howard
12. Carlos Lee
13. Ichiro Suzuki
14. Placido Polanco
15. David Ortiz
16. Justin Morneau
17. Torii Hunter
18. Victor Martinez
19. Hideki Matsui
20. Edgar Renteria

Honorable Mentions:

Carl Crawford, Gary Sheffield, Derrek Lee, Chone Figgins, Derek Jeter, Alex Rios

Neilios

08-09-2007, 04:36 PM

Good lists, but I'm not so sure Posada is the best hitting catcher

Best ones not yet mentioned include:

Victor Martinez
Gary Sheffield
Placido Polanco
Ichiro Suzuki
Edgar Renteria
Derek Jeter
Torii Hunter

Barry(US)Bonds

08-09-2007, 05:41 PM

No way...Posada's numbers are better than Martinez

OPS+: Martinez (133), Posada (158)

RC and RC/27: Martinez (104,6.62), Posada (84, 8.59)

EqA: Martinez (.294), Posada (.321)

VORP: Martinez (39.9), Posada (54.4)

G.Costanza

08-09-2007, 06:10 PM

Reyes gets a lot more media attention than Wright. Reyes steals a lot of bases...so he always comes up in espn highlight.

And when we learned about Colombus, we saw his picture in our textbook.

UHHHHHH, Thats the point, the Chinese discovered America NOT Columbus. Idiots.:hide:

holyroman

08-10-2007, 05:46 AM

1. Miguel Cabrera
2. Alex Rodriguez
3. Magglio Ordonez
4. Hanley Ramirez
5. Chase Utley
6. Matt Holliday
7. Prince Fielder
8. Albert Pujols
9. Jorge Posada
10. Vladimir Guerrero

Howard would be #11, and Bonds #12.

good list, but I think Carlos Lee belongs on that list. He is on a bad team but is putting up numbers equal to or better than some of these guys.

Imapotato

08-10-2007, 06:32 AM

YAWN

OPS+ EqA and VORP...I wipe my butt with those stats, they are just a more complicated version of stats readily available so you statheadzzzzzzzzzzz can be as condescending as possible when you talk to us 'old timers'

John Buck has won more games with his bat then Bonds this year...getting walk after walk is not the same as putting wood on the ball...that is ludicrous

If drawing walks is a skill Pat Burrell is a top 5 player!!!!!

That is not the case...I could draw a walk or 2 a game if I stayed up there and never let the bat leave my shoulder.

The strike zone is the size of a breadbox and the pitchers can't throw a pitch in the zone a majority of the time!

I have seen so many walk off walks the last 5 years to make me sick

538280

08-10-2007, 10:00 AM

YAWN

OPS+ EqA and VORP...I wipe my butt with those stats, they are just a more complicated version of stats readily available so you statheadzzzzzzzzzzz can be as condescending as possible when you talk to us 'old timers'

Not just more complicated. Many people seem to think that they are just put together in any which way with no real reasoning behind them, just to make them seem like they mean something. That is not true. They are put together in a way that correlates to how teams score runs and win games. If you look at how they are calculated that is absolutely true. EqA does overrate walks a little bit. It counts a walk as 75% of a single, when it is more like 70-72%.

John Buck has won more games with his bat then Bonds this year...getting walk after walk is not the same as putting wood on the ball...that is ludicrous

It may not be the same to what you like to see-but it is obvioulsly not true in terms of teams score runs. As I said before, if you don't believe run estimators, you can just look at actual runs scored and driven in, per out. It's still clear that Bonds is one of the best hitters in the game when he plays, by looking at that.

If drawing walks is a skill Pat Burrell is a top 5 player!!!!!

No, he's not, not even close. Pat Burrell this year is having a solid year, but he's not hitting for as much power as you need to be to be a top 5 player. His SLG is .484. That's good, but in this era it's not anything special. He also is a LF and not a particularly good one-he's a solid player, and his walks and abillity to get on base (.411 OBP) is a part of that-but he's not even close to a top 5 player.

Barry Bonds is slugging .578 (his walks don't have an impact on that), and is also getting on base at a much better rate than Burrell with a .495 OBP. Burrell is having a pretty good year, but there is no comparison between him and Bonds this year.

That is not the case...I could draw a walk or 2 a game if I stayed up there and never let the bat leave my shoulder.

Go ahead and try-It wouldn't happen. If you questoin that walks are a skill that hitters show a consistent ability to repeat, just look at different players' stat lines. Players clearly walk similar amount of times year after year. Players who don't walk much one year won't walk much the next. Players who walk a ton walk a ton every year. If it wasn't a skill, players wouldn't consistently have similar walk rates-if it wasn't a skill on the part of batters it would jump around all the time.

The strike zone is the size of a breadbox and the pitchers can't throw a pitch in the zone a majority of the time!

The size of the strike zone, and the abilitiy of pitchers to throw over the plate affects the whole league-yet league walk rates aren't at all time highs-they're very slightly above the historical average. in all of baseball history we have aveaged 3.2 walks per game-the aveage in the NL this year is 3.3 walks/game, and in the AL 3.4. Bonds is walking far more than the league average, and it's not just because of how many times he is walked intentionally. The small strike zone affects him, but it also affects everyone else, yet he is still walking far more than anyone. That is not an explanation for how many times he is walking. It is because he has great selection of pitches, and that leads to more times on base, which leads to more runs. More runs lead to more wins.

And BTW, Potato, though I disagree with you here, I am glad to see you back on the forums. You always made a great contribution. I agree with your opinion which I saw you give about Bonds and A-Rod. The reason we know about Bonds' steroid is because there has been a widespread investigation on him. IF we are gonig to pass such harsh judgement on him, I think that we should also investigate other players in a similar manner. I made the point on another thread that A-Rod's weight gain has been similar to Bonds' since he joined the league. Yet people use Bonds' weight gain as indisputable evidence of his steroid use. If that is the case shouldn't A-Rod's weight gain bring along at least a lot of suspcion?

Barry(US)Bonds

08-10-2007, 10:23 AM

YAWN

OPS+ EqA and VORP...I wipe my butt with those stats, they are just a more complicated version of stats readily available so you statheadzzzzzzzzzzz can be as condescending as possible when you talk to us 'old timers'

I know how you feel...I didn't discover statistical analysis until very recently. I have been playing the game my entire life and I thought I knew all there was to know about what makes a good player...rather than dismissing what I didn't understand outright, however, I decided to investigate. I am by no means a numbers person, but when i started to read books on the issue (baseball between the numbers, Bill James) I began to realize that statistics like these show how a player contributes runs to his team...period. I am not discounting the value of traditional stats completely...they have their place, but they really don't tell you the value of a player as much as some of the statistics they have out there now...I would suggest investigating the issue yourself...the concepts are not very complicated

-Kyle-

08-11-2007, 05:55 AM

UHHHHHH, Thats the point, the Chinese discovered America NOT Columbus. Idiots.:hide:

I actually heard about that, my social studies teacher last year told us that they found small obelisks in Massachusetts like they found in South America...which the Chinese supposedly discovered.

But thats not the point that Colombus wasn't the first in America.