Are Rolen and Edmonds done?

[micsmith]

When I compared the Hall of Fame credentials of Scott Rolen and Jim Edmonds to those of two other teammates, Chipper and Andruw Jones, I said that they were pretty comparable, until this year.

I felt Edmonds and Rolen would have had to have put up some pretty good numbers this year to keep their Hall hopes alive. But they are not doing that.

What do you guys think?

[Fuzzy Bear]

When I compared the Hall of Fame credentials of Scott Rolen and Jim Edmonds to those of two other teammates, Chipper and Andruw Jones, I said that they were pretty comparable, until this year.

I felt Edmonds and Rolen would have had to have put up some pretty good numbers this year to keep their Hall hopes alive. But they are not doing that.

What do you guys think?

It's hard to say how HOF voters will evaluate Edmonds. He was a career CF and an excellent defensive player who hit for power and a high OBP. I think he needed 400 HRs to make it, but it's possible that he will be viewed as a guy with great broad-based talent. But right now, he's done; he will probably retire at the end of the season. It looks like the repeated concussions have affected him severely.

How Rolen fares depends on whether or not he is able to keep playing and keep winning the Gold Glove. The issue with Scott Rolen, as of now, is the if we are going to enshrine Rolen, why not Ron Santo? Rolen is comparable to Santo, except that Santo's stats are better, given the time and place he played in. I think Rolen's back is doing him in. Personally, I believe Al Rosen was a greater player.

[Brad Harris]

Jim Edmonds and Andrew Jones both have between 7,000-7,200 plate appearances, both have won numerous gold gloves, and both have similar counting stats with the exception that Edmonds has about 200 more walks and half (138-63) as many stolen bases. Both have been perennial all stars. Edmonds is, at present, about as strong a case as the bottom wrung of Hall of Fame center fielders. He's comparable to candidates like Dale Murphy, Wally Berger, Dom DiMaggio and Jimmy Wynn. It's a real dog fight, actually, to figure out who's the best of that group and where they stack up against the Cooperstown collection. Edmonds has Jones beat in that he has a 135 OPS+ and Jones has a 116 OPS+, but Jones' case looks more promising at this point considering that Edmonds is nearing the end, at age 37, and Jones (age 30) is still in his relative prime. Among active center fielders, Griffey is the sole Hall shoo-in. Carlos Beltran has a similar, though slightly lesser, case as Jones and Grady Sizemore (127 OPS+ thru age 24) is the only other player with the potential to create a case for himself given enough time and health.

As for the third basemen, Jones (age 35) is already a lock for the Hall of Fame. An MVP Award, multiple all-star appearances, a World Championship, counting stats galore (400 2B, 375 HR, 1,200 RBI). Jones is one of the top ten third basemen in history and third base is woefully underrepresented in the Hall of Fame so he's a shoo-in. By the way, did I mention Jones has a OPS+ of 144? :D Rolen, on the other hand, is on a per 162 game basis, one of the most productive third basemen in history, but his injuries have preventing his counting stats from reaching levels where they wouldn't be questioned. He's got 1,000 RBI already, is age 32 and ought to finish with around 400 HR if he can stay healthy, though that's always been a big question for him. His career OPS+ of 127 puts him in pretty good company. The injuries will probably keep him out of Cooperstown, however. Troy Glaus has more career HR already, for crying out loud. The X-factor in Rolen's case will be those gold gloves. He truly has been a remarkable fielder and he reminds me, as a total package, a lot like Larry Walker. Unfortunately for Rolen the similarities don't stop at their tools.

I don't think of these players as "pairs" of teammates, but I would venture to guess the two Atlanta players have a better chance, overall, than the two Cardinal stars do of getting in. That's mostly a function of health and age though and a slow, productive decline could mean the difference between in-and-out for any of these guys.

[STLCards2]

Edmonds is done, and even though he may have borderline HOf credentials, he will not sniff Cooperstown since he didn't rack up counting numbers and one of his main offensive contributions (walks) still won't get noticed by voters.

Rolen isn't done. He has a bad shoulder, and as soon as it gets right, he will be at All-Star level again. I mean the day after he got a (cortesone? no idea how to spell it) shot, he started hitting homeruns and line drives again. Rolen should play long enough and be productive enough to look Hall-worthy to voters - even if he is already close now.

If I am wrong about his shoulder and he never returns to form, than he will be in the same boat as Edmonds.

[ColbyPants]

Edmonds is, at present, about as strong a case as the bottom wrung of Hall of Fame center fielders. He's comparable to candidates like Dale Murphy, Wally Berger, Dom DiMaggio and Jimmy Wynn. It's a real dog fight, actually, to figure out who's the best of that group and where they stack up against the Cooperstown collection.

I was actually thinking that myself, that he's kinda in the same range as DiMaggio and that if he gets in, then Dom should be as well. Frankly of the two I thin Rolen has the much better shot.

:shrug:

TomC

[RubeBaker]

Edmonds is going to be very borderline stat wise, especially since he doesn't even have 2,000 hits. But, as spectacular as a centerfielder as he was, he may just get in via the "Ozzie Smith" rule.

Rolen is somewhat similar to Edmonds stat-wise, but he's not as spectacular in the field as Jimmy (though he is great), so I doubt he'll get the nod.

[STLCards2]

Edmonds is going to be very borderline stat wise, especially since he doesn't even have 2,000 hits. But, as spectacular as a centerfielder as he was, he may just get in via the "Ozzie Smith" rule.

Rolen is somewhat similar to Edmonds stat-wise, but he's not as spectacular in the field as Jimmy (though he is great), so I doubt he'll get the nod.

Edmonds appeared more "spectacular" than Rolen, but in acctuality, Rolen was a far better 3rd baseman than Edmonds was a centerfielder (not to mention the fact that 3rd is a more important defensive position to begin with.) You are right in fact that since Edmonds appeared on more highlight reels that he looks better.

[KCGHOST]

Both of these guys are sorely lacking in counting stats (other than HR's). Edmonds is probably through so he has real problems.

Rolen is 5 years younger and has time to address the counting numbers issue. But his injury history is of the recurring variety. That means it is unlikely his body will hold up to get to the necessary numbers.

[Mex4Prez]

Edmunds- any player who has bordeline numbers and had a spike in homers starting in 2000 and ending in 2004 will have a tough time getting in. Maybe it's a coincidence, maybe not, but that's the way the writers will look at it.

Rolen-too early to say. If his shoulder problems linger, then no way he gets in based on what he has done to date. But who knows what he can do in the next 8-10 years if he is healthy.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Edmonds is done, and even though he may have borderline HOf credentials, he will not sniff Cooperstown since he didn't rack up counting numbers and one of his main offensive contributions (walks) still won't get noticed by voters.

Rolen isn't done. He has a bad shoulder, and as soon as it gets right, he will be at All-Star level again. I mean the day after he got a (cortesone? no idea how to spell it) shot, he started hitting homeruns and line drives again. Rolen should play long enough and be productive enough to look Hall-worthy to voters - even if he is already close now.

If I am wrong about his shoulder and he never returns to form, than he will be in the same boat as Edmonds.

I agree with your assessment about Rolen.

As for Edmonds, you're probably right in terms of the writers. There are some mitigating factors here. Edmonds was a broad-based player who went to college and didn't become a full-timer until age 25. His career averages per 162 games are CLEARLY in the HOF level for a Gold Glove defensive CF. Edmonds' case for the HOF on PEAK value is a strong one, granting that the writers don't buy peak value a whole lot these days.

Edmonds' chances may be better with the VC than the writers. Edmonds' image as a flamboyant Web Gems defensive outfielder may fade less with the players than with the writers. He's the kind of broad-based player that, on occasion, the VC has treated kindly. He'd be a kind of Larry Doby selection (although Doby is in for historical value as well as playing). He's not a favorite for the HOF at this point, but his chances are bit better than some may think.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Edmunds- any player who has bordeline numbers and had a spike in homers starting in 2000 and ending in 2004 will have a tough time getting in. Maybe it's a coincidence, maybe not, but that's the way the writers will look at it.

As time passes, the steroid brouhaha will fade. Steroids will be put in their proper perspective, and the witch hunts will cease.

I have not heard Edmonds mentioned as a roider. Maybe he was; I believe that steroids were rampant in the big leagues to the point where they were a condition of the time. That doesn't change the fact that Edmonds was the best CF in the NL from 2000-2005, all things considered.