How bad was Frankie Frisch's VC?

[jalbright]

According to Politics of Glory (aka Whatever Happened to the Hall of Fame?), Frisch joined the VC in 1967, and died in 1973. I figured it would be interesting to list in a poll all the guys elected in that time and vote on their worthiness for the honor. Comments are welcome. I anticipate doing occasional summaries of the poll results.

Jim Albright

[jalbright]

Personally, I pick only three of 16 as worthy: Goose Goslin (the best of their choices IMO), Stan Coveleski, and Joe Kelley.

[HDH]

MY HOF is tougher than the actual HOF, especially today's. Jake Beckley and Goose Goslin are deserving. Its tough for me to chose anyone else.

[jalbright]

There's an interesting comparison to the VC of the years 1961-66, which James indicates was influenced by Lee Allen. I'm going to post another poll with the selections of those years.

[brett]

Personally, I pick only three of 16 as worthy: Goose Goslin (the best of their choices IMO), Stan Coveleski, and Joe Kelley.

Interesting. I remember reading a book in the 80s that had Cuyler as one of the 50 greatest players. A 125 OPS+, and some good steal years, and 700 of his games in center make him a "not bad" choice in my book. He's not one of the inductees who ruined the hall of fame.

[Biggtone23]

Other than James's books has anyone else ever said anything about these era's of the VC? Did any actual members of the committees come out and say that certain players were lobbied for by Frisch or anyone else? I understand that in the old system just about everyone was lobbied for because of the informal nature of the voting.

What I'm mean is was there any proof that the dealings were as nefarious (sp) as we have come to believe?

[Erik Bedard]

IMO, there are two guys who definitely deserve it: Coveleski and Goslin. I'd also put in (Joe) Kelley and Beckley. Cuyler and Gomez also have strong cases, and I have no real objections to them being in.

[Calif_Eagle]

I picked Beckley Goslin Coveleski Kelley Cuyler and Gomez. I also looked long and hard at Chick Hafey, because he was a good to Great hitter and lost that ability prematurely to vision problems ala' George Sisler. In the end I decided Hafey was a bit short of the line, like Ross Youngs and couldnt put either in. How much should we allow for injuries? One can always play the "What If?" game. You could argue for Herb Score if you carry that argument as far as you could. (Meaning to ridiculous extremes.) Hoyt has better pitching numbers than some HOF-ers, I didnt pick him, but considering who is in the HOF in the real world, he doesnt diminish it. I looked up Jim Bottomley too, as I had always thought he was a Frisch selection, but he made it in 1974, right after Frisches' death, (I would expect that Frankie had lobbied for him in years gone by.) His top comp was Joe Medwick who just got a 23-0 YES vote (as of this writing) in my recent thread and poll regarding his hall worthiness. So whether Bottomley was a pure "Frisch Man" or not, he probably deserves his spot as well. It gets to be very difficult to decide about some of these guys as the threshhold for true HOF membership seems to be very low. A lot of very good players here, maybe not HOF-ers in my mind, but men close to the line that is established in the real world.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Beckley
Coveleski
Kelley
Gomez
Goslin
Cuyler
Youngs

I've covered Youngs in HOF threads. He was a great player, IMO; his case is much better than people think. His premature death, and, probably, his decline in 1925, was disease-related; had he lived, he was a likely candidate for 3,000 hits. Youngs was a hustling player, regarded as a great player by McGraw. He's the one pick of the Frisch cabal that is truly over-criticized.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Other than James's books has anyone else ever said anything about these era's of the VC? Did any actual members of the committees come out and say that certain players were lobbied for by Frisch or anyone else? I understand that in the old system just about everyone was lobbied for because of the informal nature of the voting.

What I'm mean is was there any proof that the dealings were as nefarious (sp) as we have come to believe?

To a large measure, the proof of this pudding is in the eating. Frisch played with the New York Giants from 1919-26, and the St. Louis Cardinals from 1927-37. It was Frisch's teammates that were the inductees; you don't see Giants of the thirties or Cardinals of the early twenties in the Frisch cabal picks.

Frisch was able to get away with this because these picks occurred at a time where batting averages had been at an all-time low. Kiki Cuyler, who is an OK pick, is not the most overwhelmingly qualified HOFer; he had a reputaton for not always hustling, but his career .321 BA was impressive at a time where the 1968 AL batting champion hit .301. Dave Bancroft hit .279, and was a shortstop! Of the position players, all of the 1B and OF hit over .300 lifetime, except for George Kelly, who hit .296 lifetime and with some power. In an era starving for batting average, these stats looked much more impressive than they really were.

[Biggtone23]

Frisch was able to get away with this because these picks occurred at a time where batting averages had been at an all-time low. Kiki Cuyler, who is an OK pick, is not the most overwhelmingly qualified HOFer; he had a reputaton for not always hustling, but his career .321 BA was impressive at a time where the 1968 AL batting champion hit .301. Dave Bancroft hit .279, and was a shortstop! Of the position players, all of the 1B and OF hit over .300 lifetime, except for George Kelly, who hit .296 lifetime and with some power. In an era starving for batting average, these stats looked much more impressive than they really were.

So they were Hall of Famers at the time but not anymore?

[BlueBlood]

The following are credible enough to not make me raise an eyebrow. I'm fine with them in the hall of fame:

Jake Beckley
Earle Combs
Kiki Cuyler
Lefty Gomez
Goose Goslin
Joe Kelley
Lloyd Waner
Ross Youngs

I regrettably had Harry Hooper, Waite Hoyt and Rube Marquard on my earlier BBHOF ballots. I totally wasn't taking into account that their statistics for their era are very underwhelming and hardly dominant.

[AG2004]

To a large measure, the proof of this pudding is in the eating. Frisch played with the New York Giants from 1919-26, and the St. Louis Cardinals from 1927-37. It was Frisch's teammates that were the inductees; you don't see Giants of the thirties or Cardinals of the early twenties in the Frisch cabal picks.

Frisch was able to get away with this because these picks occurred at a time where batting averages had been at an all-time low. Kiki Cuyler, who is an OK pick, is not the most overwhelmingly qualified HOFer; he had a reputaton for not always hustling, but his career .321 BA was impressive at a time where the 1968 AL batting champion hit .301. Dave Bancroft hit .279, and was a shortstop! Of the position players, all of the 1B and OF hit over .300 lifetime, except for George Kelly, who hit .296 lifetime and with some power. In an era starving for batting average, these stats looked much more impressive than they really were.

Frisch also seems to have been an extremely poor judge of talent. Among Frisch's teammates, there was just one player who was clearly deserving of the Hall of Fame who had not been inducted by 1967. That was Heinie Groh, and the VC didn't induct him. The three best teammates of Frisch who weren't in Cooperstown by 1967 were Groh, Lon Warneke, and Hack Wilson. None of them were admitted into the Hall during the Frisch era.

So, instead of admitting those teammates who were arguably deserving of the honor, Frisch skipped over them and admitted Bancroft, Hafey, Haines, George Kelly, and Youngs, who were all undeserving teammates of his.

It's little wonder that Frisch had just one season in his final twelve as a manager where his team finished among the top three teams in the league. Frisch had a good record with the talent he inherited with the Cardinals, but he didn't do nearly as well once he had to play a large role in evaluating and choosing the players himself.

[PVNICK]

I had Bancroft, Beckley, Coveleski, Cuyler, Gomez, Goslin and Kelley. Originally I also would have not disputed Hooper, Youngs, Combs, or George Kelly.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

How in the world is George Kelley a HoFer? He had 1778 career hits, a 110 OPS+, barely 1000 RBI, less than 900 runs scored, and slugged over .500 just once. This is a HoF first baseman?

[KCGHOST]

I would elect Joe Kelley, Goslin and Coveleski.

I would accept Beckley, Bancroft, Combs, Cuyler, and Gomez

I would not like Hafey, Hoyt, Hooper, and Youngs.

I would be adamantly opposed to Jesse Haines, George Kelly, Rube Marquard, and Lloyd Waner.

[1905 Giants]

How in the world is George Kelley a HoFer? He had 1778 career hits, a 110 OPS+, barely 1000 RBI, less than 900 runs scored, and slugged over .500 just once. This is a HoF first baseman?

Didn't someone write some big article about him or writers loved him or something?

By the way, Youngs being in is crap

[jalbright]

I promised a comparison of the results of this poll with the Lee Allen VC poll. As I write, there's been 27 votes in this poll and 15 in the Lee Allen VC poll.



……………….. Allen Frisch
low pct………… 33.3 0.0
under 33%.. 0 of 12 11 of 16
over 50%…. 8 of 12 3 of 16
over 75%…. 4 of 12 1 of 16

[jalbright]

Updating the comparison of the results of this poll with the Lee Allen VC poll. As I write, there's been 29 votes in this poll and 22 in the Lee Allen VC poll.



……………..... Allen Frisch
low pct…….. 40.9 0
under 40%.. 0 of 12 12 of 16
50% & up… 9 of 12 3 of 16
75% & up 4 of 12 1 of 16

[Fuzzy Bear]

Frisch actually believed that George Kelly was superior to Jim Bottomley. Bottomley wasn't a great pick, but he's defensible. Kelly is indefensible.