Players rooting for Bonds

[downstairs]

Its strange how San Francisco fans are cheering like crazy for Bonds, while pretty much all of the rest of the nation are now.

I'm curious, what do you think non-Giants players honestly think of him and the record? Of course they'll make nice in the media. And they're part of a union, so they don't want to see anyone get thrown under the bus.

I'm curious about this in general, but also for a specific reason. Why didn't the union let Bonds be a single fall-guy for the steroids deal? Wouldn't that have been the best move?

"You can suspend Bonds for life if you go easy on other current players, and from now on we'll let you test us, etc."

It would have made MLB look good in the eyes of the casual fan. It would have politically made the steroids thing look like less than it apparently was. And the blood-hungry fans would have been happy to see a fall guy.

[mwb]

I think most players support Bonds because he is one of their own. I think the mentality of most players is that they don't want to publicly snitch on one of their own.

[Ytown Tribe fan]

I would bet that the players support him because they truly appreciate the magnitude of what he's accomplished, and just how incredibly hard it is to do what he's done.

That is something that no fan could ever appreciate, unless they've been a big-league batter.

Further, ALL players are subjected to testing, fines and banishment, under the 2005 agreement. Until Barry is fined and/or banned, he is clean as a whistle and must be treated that way. No one is guilty just because people THINK he is guilty.

That is the American way. At least, it USED to be.

[downstairs]

Until Barry is fined and/or banned, he is clean as a whistle and must be treated that way. No one is guilty just because people THINK he is guilty.

That is the American way. At least, it USED to be.

Ummmmm... you realize he admitted using steroids, right?

[TheKingofKings]

Ummmmm... you realize he admitted using steroids, right?

He NEVER admitted to steroid use...

[SoxSon]

Ummmmm... you realize he admitted using steroids, right?

When did he admit to it, downstairs? I don't recall that.

[Old Sweater]

I think most players support Bonds because he is one of their own. I think the mentality of most players is that they don't want to publicly snitch on one of their own.

Yeah, if they would just stop writing those books.:silent:

[Brian McKenna]

Current players or retired players? Hitters or pitchers? I think the responses might be a little different.

[EdTarbusz]

That is the American way. At least, it USED to be.


You should look up the subject of black-listing, or better yet, the history of baseball.

[ChrisLDuncan]

I'm pulling for him because he's a great great player, also and history needs a villan.

[downstairs]

When did he admit to it, downstairs? I don't recall that.

He admitted to the Grand Jury that he used the cream or clear. He claimed to not know what it was. If you're going to accept that as an excuse, then you'd have to believe nearly every criminal or cheater is innocent... of course they all have an excuse.

But no matter what... Barry Bonds did use steroids. Period. His stats are somewhat altered by steroids. Period. How much and what it matters... I suppose that's for everyone to decide.

[beisbolcrazy22]

If it is so clear cut that Bonds did use steriods, why are the Federal Commission guys taking their time to indict him? It has taken three year and all they say is that they have sufficient evidence to ban him from baseball. They have nothing, and when the time comes, they will drop all accusations. He will break the record and go beyond; in a matter of a decade, A-rod will pass Bonds.

Another point, why arent people bringing up the amphetimine use that Hank said was a problem near the end of his career. His family said that it was difficult for Hank to make it to the ballpark when he was getting older. Maybe that got him a few extra home runs.

[west coast orange and black]

downstairs: you realize [bonds] admitted using steroids, right?

curiously, your site is dedicate to historical accuracy but you got this one 100% incorrect.
i did find it to be a very interesting site, though.

[west coast orange and black]

downstairs: He admitted to the Grand Jury that he used the cream or clear.

uh-uh. didn't happen.

[west coast orange and black]

downstairs: But no matter what... Barry Bonds did use steroids. Period.

we all believe what we wanna, of course. that's coolio.
but masking an inaccuracy with "but no matter what" serves what purpose?

[plask_stirlac]

I doubt there's as much vitriol from the players as from the fans, but perhaps.

He remade himself in his mid-30s, who wouldn't want to do that. At best, steroids help one work out more and build muscle, it is still a tremendous task at that age. At best he just worked like a fiend and had a few supplements, but no HGH or steroids.

Face it, he's never going to get caught for something besides greenies, and he's still posting the best OBPs of the decade.

[downstairs]

downstairs: He admitted to the Grand Jury that he used the cream or clear.

uh-uh. didn't happen.

From AP via CBS News. You can find 1000 similar articles anywhere on major news site archives:



Slugger Says He Didn't Know Substances Were Steroids

Bonds told a federal grand jury last year that he used a clear substance and a cream given to him by his personal trainer, Greg Anderson, according to a sealed transcript of his testimony reviewed by the San Francisco Chronicle.

The substances Bonds described were similar to ones known as "the clear" and "the cream," two steroids from the Bay Area Laboratory Co-Operative at the center of the steroid scandal. Bonds said Anderson told him the substances he used in 2003 were the nutritional supplement flaxseed oil and a rubbing balm for arthritis.


Emphasis added. What am I missing here?

You may or may not believe his excuse, but he did use steroids and eventually admitted to it.

[west coast orange and black]

downstairs: What am I missing here?

facts.

let's look at your reply.
"Bonds told a federal grand jury last year that he used a clear substance and a cream..."
according to you, bonds testified that he used substances provided to him by greg anderson. those substances included a cream and one that was clear in appearance. um, okay.
nowhere did bonds state that he used the steroid-laced substances that are known as "clear"/"the clear and "the cream".

balco supplied perhaps tens of thousands of athletes with dozens of different substances. the majority of those substances were and are still legal.
a cream substance could have been legal or not. substances clear in appearance could be legal or not.
again, you can believe that bonds used steroids. that's your call. but he has not ever admitted to using any illegal substances, including the two known as "the clear"/"clear" and "the cream".

you add
"The substances Bonds described were similar to ones known as "the clear" and "the cream," two steroids..."
(my underlining)

the two underlined words make all the difference in the world.

"i am drinking water."
v
"i am drinking what appears to be water."

[downstairs]

downstairs: What am I missing here?

facts.

let's look at your reply.
"Bonds told a federal grand jury last year that he used a clear substance and a cream..."
according to you, bonds testified that he used substances provided to him by greg anderson. those substances included a cream and one that was clear in appearance. um, okay.
nowhere did bonds state that he used the steroid-laced substances that are known as "clear"/"the clear and "the cream".

balco supplied perhaps tens of thousands of athletes with dozens of different substances. the majority of those substances were and are still legal.
a cream substance could have been legal or not. substances clear in appearance could be legal or not.
again, you can believe that bonds used steroids. that's your call. but he has not ever admitted to using any illegal substances, including the two known as "the clear"/"clear" and "the cream".

you add
"The substances Bonds described were similar to ones known as "the clear" and "the cream," two steroids..."
(my underlining)

the two underlined words make all the difference in the world.

"i am drinking water."
v
"i am drinking what appears to be water."


Well, it is all legalease right now. I do believe it is going to come out that he used them.

But with all the evidence you're looking at here, you can't tell me that you believe he did not do steroids. You certainly can tell me- and I can't debate you- that he is currently not guilty of using them in a legal sense. And, fine, he has not fully admitted to using them without caveat or excuse.

The legal system is very complicated. Complicated meaning that people do (rightfully) get off on technicalities, or cannot be brought to justice because of technicalities or lack of evidence. OJ is not a convicted murderer. Clinton is not a convicted purjurer. The Black Sox did not throw a World Series.

But if someone only looks at the pure legal technicalities, you get a very inaccurate picture of reality. If you want your entire reality dictated by legalease, fine. You then must not believe anything until it is decided in a court of law.

Aside from this, MLB is a private orginization. They do not HAVE TO adhere to this legalese. They can find someone "guilty" for their own purposes.

[mwb]

downstairs: balco supplied perhaps tens of thousands of athletes with dozens of different substances. the majority of those substances were and are still legal.
a cream substance could have been legal or not. substances clear in appearance could be legal or not.
again, you can believe that bonds used steroids. that's your call. but he has not ever admitted to using any illegal substances, including the two known as "the clear"/"clear" and "the cream".

Isn't it the patient's responsibility to know what he is using? More importantly, isn't it the doctor's responsibility to tell the patient what he is giving him? If Bonds was given steriods without his knowledge, should he be a little more angry about it? I've seen little indication from Bonds that he feels betrayed. I don't think ignorance should be an excuse.

[west coast orange and black]

downstairs: Well, it is all legalease right now.
no, it's not legalese. there is no legal jargon. there is no excessive legal terminology. there is no need to haul out black's law dictionary.
the substances were described in appearance, not specific content. that's it.
bonds has not ever stated that he used illegal or banned substances.

I do believe it is going to come out that he used them.
if you mean that *proof* will come to surface, i would not bet yes.

But with all the evidence you're looking at here, you can't tell me that you believe he did not do steroids.
i did not say that.

And, fine, he has not fully admitted to using them without caveat or excuse.
incorrect. bonds has not in any way admitted, much less "fully" admitted.

[downstairs]

downstairs: Well, it is all legalease right now.
no, it's not legalese. there is no legal jargon. there is no excessive legal terminology. there is no need to haul out black's law dictionary.
the substances were described in appearance, not specific content. that's it.
bonds has not ever stated that he used illegal or banned substances.

I do believe it is going to come out that he used them.
if you mean that *proof* will come to surface, i would not bet yes.

But with all the evidence you're looking at here, you can't tell me that you believe he did not do steroids.
i did not say that.

And, fine, he has not fully admitted to using them without caveat or excuse.
incorrect. bonds has not in any way admitted, much less "fully" admitted.


Well, I'd ask you this then. Simply: Do you think he did steroids?

I'd ask most people in San Fran and his other supporters the same thing.

It's an honest question. I'm not asking if he admitted to doing them, if he's been caught or will be caught doing them/having done them. I'm not asking if the legal standard of evidence/doubt has been achieved.

Just: do you think he did them or not?

[maximum jack]

Just: do you think he did them or not?

http://r_harrison.tripod.com/Agonist/BarryBonds.jpg

nah, no way.