remedy for upper-cut swing on low pitches

[bob_r]

Need advice as to the best way to correct an upper-cut swing on low pitches. My 11 yr old son will hit high pitches fine, however on low pitches he tilts his spine excessively. I think it has been ingrained in him from practicing at a field that has 75 ft high net attached to the fence. He know's it's a problem, but it has become automatic.

[Mark H]

Which direction are you talking about on the tilt?

[bob_r]

he's a right handed batter, so he tilts to his right and the ball will go sky high, he's been lucky because the ball carries well, but it can't be good for too much longer.

[LClifton]

Bobr, A pretty good amount of tilt for a low pitch.
Full clip,
http://lclifton.hittingillustrated.com/ADunn2005CIN_FView.gif
Just after contact.
http://lclifton.hittingillustrated.com/tilt.bmp

At this point it would be speculation on my part, but there is a decent possibility that if he is tilting (as you describe) and popping the ball up a "mile" high that he may not be too far off.
Getting low pitches elevated is tough to do.

Without video to help---you might take a look at,
Front arm collapsing, which might be seen by looking at whether he is
casting backwards with the arms--toward the catcher, possibly losing hinge angle----
----Generally the lead arm gets very long and the angle between the lead forearm and bat gets lost or has never been "set".

Imagine this picture with the bat in the position of the yellow line---often times as young hitters launch their swing they will move the bat from the position of the blue line to the yellow line- losing the hinge angle, leaving them little option other than to sweep the low pitch, up, with little carry.
(ignore the lines across the shoulders, that was for something else.)
http://lclifton.hittingillustrated.com/mauer set up.bmp

If your son is losing this hinge angle it could explain why he is skying the low pitches. (just a check point-- bobr..)

Any video?

[bob_r]

LClifton, That clip is pretty close to the angle he does. I will have to look at the arm and bat position. One thing he does have is a very long stride

[Swing Coach]

LC,

Can you talk about the hinge angle and why it is so important? A lot of kids I teach have the problem of dropping the bat and losing the hinge. I tell them it is bad and give them some drills to remedy it...but can you give me a more technical answer to why it is bad to lose that hinge and what you gain from maintaining it.

THanks

[bamajeff]

One of the main reasons you want to maintain the hinge angle is so that the bat can unhinge in the zone. This gives you more pop as the bat will reach maximum speed at or near the point of contact.

It also helps more efficiently transfer the momentum that's generated by the rest of the body directly into the barrel of the bat.

You also gain quickness by maintaining it as it helps eliminate casting by helping you keep a tight radius of rotation.


LC,

Can you talk about the hinge angle and why it is so important? A lot of kids I teach have the problem of dropping the bat and losing the hinge. I tell them it is bad and give them some drills to remedy it...but can you give me a more technical answer to why it is bad to lose that hinge and what you gain from maintaining it.

THanks

[LClifton]

Swingcoach,
The importance is power and a better contact point.
I'm not sure this will be a more technical description but here is what I liken losing the hinge angle to:

Imagine a car with a tow rope on the front bumper,
hold onto the rope like you were in your batting stance.
Now, if the rope has a huge amount of slack in it and you were to turn your hips the car would not move, the only thing left to try and get the car rolling would be to jerk with the hands / arms.
On the other hand if the rope were completely tight as you rotate your hips there would be resistance in the upper body.
As you continue to move your body rotationally you would be able to get the car rolling.
There is an image of Manny Ramirez with a stack of weights that's a pretty good visual of this as well.

If the hinge angle is lost early,,,it is like pulling on the slack rope.
Then the hitter is forced to do something less than optimal to try and salvage a swing with any speed / quickness / power to it. This is usually evidenced by bat drag, or throwing the arms forward, forsaking both power and barrel accuracy.

The hinge angle if maintained in the swing, then released (unconsciously, in my opinion) in conjuntion with good lower body mechanics, will provide serious pop.

Take a look at this clip of Carlos Beltran,
http://lclifton.hittingillustrated.com/beltran5.gif
See how many frames he "holds the hinge"?
(A flaw taught to many kids is to hit the ball out front, they do, and we wonder why they hit the ball so weakly, because most accomplish the "hit out front" by releasing the hinge early ---extending the lead elbow.)
(Their bat actually has to slow down to impact because they have started early in order to "hit it out front",,,)

Anyway, Beltran
He has stored power by not releasing this angle despite forces working to make that happen.
His lower body has rotated slightly ahead of the upper body, due to the fact that he loaded his upper body last (setting the hinge).
He is able to maintain it largely (not solely) due to his UNloading pattern.
When the hips are unloaded just ahead of the upper body this allows delay of the release. (hinge remains in tact until the proper time)
Notice how far he rotates before the hinge is released.
Another benefit:
This can allow him to more effectively lay off bad pitches.
Why? Because he knows that his quickness is sufficient.
Instill that to a kid and watch the lights go on.

The biggest benefit is one of timing, this angle being maintained allows for a full, powerful, much more timely release,,,hard hit balls.
Of course pitchers will continue to mess with that timing thing....:nod:

What type of drills do you do for this swingcoach?

[Swing Coach]

Great post!

I have used drills that don't allow kids the time to drop the bat. One of my favorites (and comical to some) is an old Fisher Price Pop up pitcher. I put a wiffel on the spring base (near the gorund), step on the launch pad with the hitter already in the proper toe down position. The ball pops up (waist high)quickly, thus not giving the hitter time to drop the bat. They go down after it and must finish back up to drive the ball. When they drive a ball off this drill, their swing always looks good. I have also put a wall or object behind them, making sure that if they did drop, they would hit the wall.

My 8-year-old (and half his travel team) would drop the bat back and then attack by pulling the bat through in a very level fashion, always finishing low. THey have learned somewhere that this is the the only way to ensure a "level" swing. THey still hit the ball hard, but I knew it would be very inefficient when they got older. THis isn't that hard of a problem to fix....just kept working that stride to balance while checking that bat is still in launch position...over and over and over. Seems to be a consensus that all MLB players are on balance when their foot hits the ground with the bat still unhinged. I like to separate the step from the swing initially so they realize that their bat is still in a good position for a second before they swing. Most all the kids begin dropping the bat before the pitcher has released the ball so I think Swingbuster's hands back hitter would be a great tool to teach this because it gives the hitter time to feel the bat staying there throughout the stride. Perhaps I would advance past the HBH when they were able to stride against a pitcher without losing the hinge. What do you think?

[bob_r]

LC, is the hinge angle the same thing as maintaining the box?

[LClifton]

LC, is the hinge angle the same thing as maintaining the box?
Bobr,
Sure.
Question:
Can the box be maintained without the wrists being cocked and uncocked?

If the box is a line across the shoulders down to the lead elbow, across the lead forearm to the hands and then a line back to the rear shoulder, then yes would be my answer.

If maintaining the box (as much as possible) is relegated to the hands and their relationship with the rear shoulder then yes.

This is a clip of a very good college hitter (graduated)
http://lclifton.hittingillustrated.com/CaitlinBenji2005UCLA_SView.gif
A still at contact.
http://lclifton.hittingillustrated.com/catilin box.bmp


As it pertains to the low pitch that we are discussing then I think the "box" gets elongated quicker as the hitter adjusts, still leaving a "hinge"---at the wrist.(the wrists stay cocked) as opposed to the lead arm staying bent at the elbow, which would make reaching the lower pitch locations more difficult.

Note: lead arm does, IMO, start forward bent then elongates to reach the low pitch.
http://lclifton.hittingillustrated.com/ADunn2005CIN_FView.gif
Some hitters have a much more extended lead arm throughout their swing, but maintain wrist cock, hinge.
http://lclifton.hittingillustrated.com/inge.gif

My point in the original post said that if the bat falls back toward the catcher the hinge angle could be lost, by the extension of the lead arm backward in conjunction with the wrists "falling" / uncocking.

If the lead elbow extends to adjust to the low pitch after the swing is initiated with a slightly bent elbow then this, to me, would be a correct adjustment.

bobr,
Something to look at as you contemplate "the box"...maybe look at something just "outside" the box.
http://lclifton.hittingillustrated.com/horizontal.bmp
http://lclifton.hittingillustrated.com/vertical.bmp

[tom.guerry]

clif-

a couple of comments.

1- I see in the last Pujols clip that when the back elbow is up, back wrist is cupped. When the back elbow is slotted, the wrist gets more neutral so the back forearm can swivel. before this, while the elbow is up and the wrist cupped, the arms have to work in a way that applies torque, aided by the wide angle between the forearms, before this forearm angle narrows after slotting

2- how to think about hinge angle.

mechanically, you need running start handle torque synched with lower body/limb action to eventually get a good torso coil cusp that reverses/connects and fires the bathead to contact. (hips and hands drive the swing).

If you "cast" or widen the hinge angle early/prematurely, this interrupts or prevents torso coiling, so certainly the hinge angle needs to be retained to permit the torso to go ahead and coil. However, to prevent "drag" or trapping AND have early batspeed (which requires turning the whole body back some and loading the hands behind the body - something which traps the club in golf/2 plane swing) you have to have the running start handle torque like Pujols shows, for example.

So that can be difficult to grasp, how you both retain the hinge angle AND torque the handle. It requires forces transmitted through both hands without the lead wrist angle getting too wide prematurely.

Once the swing is underway, if it is a good mlb pattern with a good torso coil, the hinge angle will stay narrow as cusp reverses and the lead shoulder/arm are accelerated. At this point the inertia of the bat will result in force that will narrow the hinge angle if not resisted by ongoing handle torque.If the angle gets too narrow here, swing quickness will suffer.

for these reasons, you have to look pretty far UPstream when thinking about how the hinge angle is retained.

Early widening will prevent coil, BUT only good coil will permit retaining hinge angle AND good coil will REQUIRE handle torque.

So when you try to maintain the box or hold the hinge angle, you need to do it in a way that does not prevent torquing and understand that what permits retaining the hinge angle is good torso loading. Trying to retain the hinge angle by a stiff lead wrist will not work.

Bat on deltoid is more effective.

Understanding grip and arm and forearm action/sequence is better, complex but usually necessary to get a good mlb pattern.

[LClifton]

for these reasons, you have to look pretty far UPstream when thinking about how the hinge angle is retained.

Yes, that is what I eluded to here:
the angle between the lead forearm and bat gets lost or has never been "set".

And here:
His lower body (speaking of Beltran) has rotated slightly ahead of the upper body, due to the fact that he loaded his upper body last (setting the hinge).

And why I put " " around this:
See how many frames he "holds the hinge"?

[ShawnB]

LC,

Do you have the clip of Pujols? The stills you show. I would like to see the swing from that angle if you have the entire clip.

[dannyboy]

Strictly my opinion:

What is “hinge angle”?

I think the term is a misnomer (in the baseball sense, the way it is used in most discussion forums). Why?

What forms the angle?
I believe that most believe (and I could be wrong) it is the angle that is created/formed by the bat and the top-hand forearm. Why do I believe this? Because most talk about “maintaining the hinge angle” and “maintaining wrist cock” in the same sense. Again, I could be wrong, and if readers think I am, then either please correct me or disregard what else I am about to write.

This “angle” is greatly influenced by the “wrist”, which by the way is not a hinge, and that fact causes me to disagree with many discussions about maintaining the hinge angle or keeping the wrist cocked.

I guess this goes back to my days of trying to get a definition of “the box” and what “maintaining the box” truly is. Many use the term so loosely, primarily because many who discuss it, have different definitions of it. Some, when pressed, can give a fairly definitive explanation, but generally I disagree with most. Anyhow, excuse the digression and ramble.

I think the most difficult part of analyzing video is that it’s two dimensional and hitting takes place in three dimensions. I always, and I really do mean that, try and analyze a swing with a three dimensional perspective. Different views of the same swing are a huge aid.
The point I’m trying to make is that the “hinge angle” is not two dimensional. And that the wrist is not “a hinge”.
A hitter’s arm has seven degrees of freedom: three in the shoulder (pitch, yaw, and roll), one in the elbow (pitch), and three in the arm below the elbow (pitch, yaw, and roll).
If you froze all degrees of freedom in the arms right at “launch” and just turned the entire upper torso, it would be a better looking robot than Will Smith could ever perform.
Likewise “maintaining wrist cock”. The wrist can flex in different directions, extend in different directions, and with the help of the forearm can roll in different directions. And this is exactly what it does. From “start” of swing” (which I define as bathead/sweet change of direction) right up until contact.

Maybe “maintaining hinge angle” is a teach, but the angle that is formed by the bat and the tophand forearm is everchanging throughout the hack. And the wrist is not maintaining it’s cock. At least, not in the truest sense (x,y,z axis). Not even until lag position, or even until what some term bathead release point. And it’s my further opinion, that teaching this robotic maintenance, actually can retard getting the bathead/sweet into the path of the pitch optimally early.

I’m working on a visual to demonstrate this. Perhaps in the not too distant future.

[Jake Patterson]

I’m working on a visual to demonstrate this. Perhaps in the not too distant future.
Would love to see it.
Jake

[Ursa Major]

Ray, you never explain why you think the wrist is not a "hinge". Where the term is helpful is to emphasize that it should be the last part of the swing to engage and to initially be passive in the sense that a door hinge is passive -- i.e., it has no power source of its own. The goal of this cue is to discourage premature disconnection of the hands. I emphasize the term "initially", because obviously the wrists and hands become very active when the turn of the shoulders moves them closer to the hitting zone.

On your "seven degrees of freedom", I think you're making it more complicated than it needs to be. The ultimate goal is to get the "box" aligned in the swing plane so that the front shoulder and elbow, hands, and bathead all travel through a single plane. (This isn't to say that -- in loading up -- the hitter can't move the barrel in some other plane before launch, like Inge does in the clip above.)

Loren, in so many threads in this forum, the best advice comes when someone has "hijacked" a thread to offer some advice that leads into a related discussion. Your first post is absolutely brilliant in describing and analyzing a common problem with youth hitters. My son has a nice hinge when he faces even the fastest pitching machines and can hit well. But, when he faces real pitchers with speed, he often drops the bathead back under the subconscious illusion that by doing so he'll get the bat into the zone more quickly. That is not true. Kids have to learn to trust their good swings for exactly the reasons that you mention. I'm going to steal that "towing the car" imagery for my teaching. Well done!

[tom.guerry]

if you look at Pujols top wrist, it is flexed/cupped with the grip, then it gets more neutral for swivel (supination) then the forearm lowers and supinates moreafter the back elbow slots, then it cups again (see home run derby clip) then "flips it" then pronates.

[LClifton]

Shawn, here's the clip.


http://lclifton.hittingillustrated.com/Pujols3.gif

[ShawnB]

LC,

Thanks, he is picking up the foot in this clip. I agree with mostly what you said about the hinge angle.

[dannyboy]

Ursa Major,


Ray, you never explain why you think the wrist is not a "hinge".

Sorry. I thought my point was clear. (“The wrist can flex in different directions, extend in different directions, and with the help of the forearm can roll in different directions.”).
I will try again.
Typically, when I think of a “hinge”, I think of the action of a “door hinge”. I suspect you do too, as you referenced as such in your post.
A door is connected to a jamb by a joint that limits the angle of rotation between them. A door hinge only permits relative (door to jamb) turning in one plane.
Anatomically, you might say that the elbow or knee best resembles this type of “hinge”, where motion occurs, and is limited, around a transverse axis. But not the wrist.
And since my understanding of the “angle” part of the term “hinge angle”, is the angle created by the bat and the top hand forearm, - then, with a little help from the forearm, the wrist can circumduct as well as flex and extend. Think of all day long how one uses one’s hands to get to something. The complications of the movements. How one just, takes it for granted.

On your "seven degrees of freedom", I think you're making it more complicated than it needs to be.

Respectfully, they are not mine, Ursa. They are what is, and I’m sorry, but I believe that you can’t ignore them for the sake of uncomplicating things. If anything, the infinite sequential combinations are what basically makes hitting a ball so beautiful.
But, so as to not complicate, I’ll just bud out.

[Ursa Major]

Ray, thanks for the clarifications ... and don't butt out, for heaven's sakes. Now that I think I understand where you're going, the next question is -- after acknowledging that the wrist can flex in multiple directions:

1. Should it do so?

2. Even if some flexing in other than the swing plane is helpful, should the fact that the wrist or other arm parts can do so be a part of the instruction or any cues given to most hitters? I'm wary of giving any instructions to a hitter about how the hands should be moving (at least early in the swing) for fear of introducing disconnection.

[tom.guerry]

Ray-

i think of the lead/bottom hand wrist as the hinge and the angle as that between the lead forearm and the bat.

this is based on the similarity of the swing from 'connection' to contact to the mechanics of the double pendulum with the hinge being the connection between the two levers.

connected torso shoulders lead arm forearm are one lever.

second is bat.

'connection" is when the shoulders/lead arm/bat are connected to the unloading of the torso as the coiling cusp of the torso reverses

ideally, max batspeed is at contact where bathead is released/deceleration starts. i like yeager's description of a ballistic motion as one completed by momentum transfer.

another simplification would be that the joint motion of the hinge in a flat hands swing would be radial deviation/aBduction for retaining and ulnar deviation/aDduction for widening of hinge from "LAG" to contact.

"retaining' the hinge angle is thinking a little too negatively sometimes.

as i mentioned above, if you let the lead wrist prematurely aDduct, then you will be unable to load/coil due to leaking/interruption.

a good way to adequately control this is bat on deltoid.

however, what you need to learn to do should be a positive sense of trying to do something more specific as opposed to many non- specific ways to fill a vaccuum created by just saying what not to do.

what you need to do, more specifically is learn how to torque the handle and coil the torso well which is a twohanded/alternating front/back action that involves hinge angle retention but is not well described by this one feature.

cues like tip and rip get more at this than the more retention oriented "radial deviation" (lead wrist aBduction) as a way of cocking the bat "cue" popularized by Emanski and Hodge, for example, but they can be useful as a stage between bat on deltoid and hands free/tip and rip..


upper body arm action sequence/grip/forearm,etc are things that often require conscious teaching which is possible becasue they occur as necessary preparation before the swing gets going too quickly.

as an analogy, you can focus on grip and set up and how to move to break the hands for an overhand throw. if you break the hands wrong, you are doomed. you are far less likely to figure out how to break hands right by trial and error/emulation than by "good coaching ".

the hands are in control and will not do the right thing in response to what you try to make the middle and lower body do.

[Stealth]

Shawn, here's the clip.

http://lclifton.hittingillustrated.com/Pujols3.gif

I will help to set up the phone call:D

Shawn - what don't you agree with Loren on about the hinge angle?

[LClifton]

If anything, the infinite sequential combinations are what basically makes hitting a ball so beautiful.
O.K. You certainly have my attention.....

But, so as to not complicate, I’ll just bud out.
I agree with Ursa -----don't bud out.
Would genuinely like to see what you have.

[ShawnB]

I will help to set up the phone call:D

Shawn - what don't you agree with Loren on about the hinge angle?

I said I agreed with much of what he had to say. I will have to go re-read to see if I disagree with anything.

[dannyboy]

tom,

i think of the lead/bottom hand wrist as the hinge and the angle as that between the lead forearm and the bat.

ok. Same thing applies.

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzep5xd2/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/BondsIncreasingAngle.gif



this is based on the similarity of the swing from 'connection' to contact to the mechanics of the double pendulum with the hinge being the connection between the two levers.

a former post by you.

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=942932&postcount=17

a link given by you:

http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~plynch/SwingingSpring/doublependulum.html

…and the first two lines after the title of the page just about sums up what I obviously failed to make clear in my previous posts.



however, what you need to learn to do should be a positive sense of trying to do something more specific as opposed to many non- specific ways to fill a vaccuum created by just saying what not to do.

i assume that you directed this to me, since my name is at the top of your address.
You gotta lotta balls.



you are far less likely to figure out how to break hands right by trial and error/emulation than by "good coaching ".

totally disagree.



ps: the post before your last was pretty good.

[dannyboy]

Ursa Major,

and all these years i thought it was bud out. hit me like a ton of bricks and started to laugh uncontrollably.

1. Should it do so?

in my opinion, yes.

2. … should the fact that the wrist or other arm parts can do so be a part of the instruction or any cues given to most hitters?

in my experiences, yes.

Ursa, in two posts above, you have used the terms:

disconnection
the box
swing plane

i’d like to ask you what they mean to you. can you tell me what physical parameters define each? like you would be describing each to someone who knew nothing at all about the terms.

[dannyboy]

Loren,

something i posted at another site:
if you haven't read it, good luck.

-------------------------

crack open a cold one.

Adjustments.
Adjustments as a result of “interaction torques”. I really would suggest googling that, and reading how our joints interact with each other. Single and multi-joint movements abound in a swing and never are they more critically related as to when joints must interact with each other (involving the Central Nervous System) to adjust.

Each joint is capable of specific and different movement. Each joint has certain degree of freedom. Each joint relies on feedback from joints adjacent to it. They don’t move independently, they interact with each other. They rely on each other for information on how to best to achieve a certain motor goal.

I’ve posted the following before and it is the best way to understand the true difference between swinging and hitting.

Not required reading, but advised:

Studies of multijoint arm movements have demonstrated that the nervous system anticipates and plans for the mechanical effects that arise from motion of the linked limb segments. The general rules by which the nervous system selects appropriate muscle activities and torques to best deal with these intersegmental effects are largely unknown.
During multijoint limb movements, rotational forces arise at one joint due to the motions of limb segments about other joints. Central control signals to muscles are adjusted, in a predictive manner, to compensate for interaction torques-loads arising at one joint that depend on motion about other joints.
There is a dual role of proprioception in controlling multijoint movements; that is, to provide important cues both for the predictive control of interaction torques and for the synchronization of adjacent joints even when interactive torques are very small. These findings support the idea that proprioceptive input is used by the CNS to update an internal model of limb dynamics that adapts the motor plan according to biomechanical contexts.

muscles acting at a joint produce torque and combine this torque with interaction torques (generated by movement of linked joints) to produce the correct amount of torque to accomplish task (anticipatory response). Adjustments are made with inter-segmental interaction torques.

For example, during a reach involving multiple joints, elbow movement will cause an interaction torque to occur at the shoulder, and shoulder movement will cause an interaction torque to occur at the elbow. These torques are velocity and acceleration dependent and will increase in magnitude as movements are made more rapidly.

A Fable:

A centipede was happy, quite,
Until an ant, in fun,
Said "Pray, which leg comes after which?"
Which raised his doubts to such a pitch,
He fell befuddled in the ditch,
Not knowing how to run.

single joint movements are involved in multi-joint tasks but the movements are not controlled separately. If several elemental single-joint commands were executed simultaneously, a normal multi-joint movement would not be generated; instead, a very disorganized movement would arise.

Repetition of individual action is not the optimal way of learning to bat a ball optimally in competition.

Three reasons:
Repetition prepares you for a pre-planned action. (This only occurs until toe touch).

Schema theory. People don’t learn specific movements. Instead, they construct generalized motor programs.

Contextual Interference. People retain skills better when they train in an environment or task context that prevents their simply repeating a movement pattern. Interference, like random, ever-changing practice, forces them to engage in more meaningful processing or regeneration of motor skills.

Main reason why some are great “cage” hitters, and can’t do it when it counts.


*******************************


Schema theory (in motor learning):

_______________________



http://www.garfield.library.upenn.edu/classics1983/A1983QT44700001.pdf


http://moon.ouhsc.edu/dthompso/mtrlrng/schmidt.htm


http://www.humankinetics.com/products/showproduct.cfm?isbn=073604258X


http://www.mcmaster.ca/kinesiology/emplibrary/Sherwood%20&%20Lee%20(RQES).pdf


*********************************


contextual interference:

_____________________________

http://curry.edschool.virginia.edu/kinesio...s/11-15-03.html


http://kinesiology.unlv.edu/wulf/index.html


http://moon.ouhsc.edu/dthompso/mtrlrng/orgprac.htm


http://www.tkohl.com/train1.htm





*******************************


interaction torques:


_________________________________

http://moon.ouhsc.edu/dthompso/pk/intork.htm


http://www.ptjournal.org/Jun97/Bastian.cfm


http://spindle.ssc.uwo.ca/papers/debicki2004.pdf




During multi-joint limb movements, rotational forces arise at one joint due to the motions of limb segments about other joints. Central control signals to muscles are adjusted to compensate for interaction torques - loads arising at one joint which depend on motion about other joints.

So, what does it all mean?

Are body segments forcefully unhinging, or are they unhinging due to momentum and rotational forces?

Is arm action important? Is it active and can it be consciously controlled?

I believe that it is NOT a passive reaction to shoulder turn/shoulder tilt (in the high level swing).

Perhaps in golf. A swing can never be exactly identical on every swing, but it has an infinitely greater chance in golf. Could a golf swing passively unhinge due to momentum and rotational forces? Yes. Could the swing be performed as passively if the golf ball were pitched with varying speed, location, and movement? No. Body segments would have to adjust. They would have to interact with each other? They would rely on each other for feedback. They would forcefully adjust.

Adjustment to pitch location does not just come from one source: body tilt. If it did why didn’t all the hitters depicted in stills [NO LONGER HAVE THEM POSTED] have the bat in line with the shoulders?
If a hitter makes a mistake in torso tilt degree, could he not make up for it with shoulder tilt? With shoulder circumduction (and here I am referring to how a shoulder rotates in it’s socket, not to be confused with upper torso rotation)? With internal/external rotation of the elbow? With elevation adjustment (higher/lower) and unhinging rate (faster/slower, more degree/less degree, early/late) of upper arm? Same for lower arm? With roll of the forearm? With wrist ab/adduction? With all the degrees of freedom of each segment interacting with each other proprioceptively to achieve one common goal? Etc.

Or do we just set the angle early and let the arms unhinge as a result of the momentum we create?????????? Swing or hit????????????

More examples of adjustments:

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzep5xd2/baseballphotosandvideo/id22.html [NO LONGER UP]

[Drill]

Need advice as to the best way to correct an upper-cut swing on low pitches. My 11 yr old son will hit high pitches fine, however on low pitches he tilts his spine excessively. I think it has been ingrained in him from practicing at a field that has 75 ft high net attached to the fence. He know's it's a problem, but it has become automatic.


check his hands position at set up. Does he look like he is holding them High?

This could cause a person to loop the bat. Without vids I am just giving you my best guess. Make sure the basic set up is correct and have him hit off the t to get out of bad habits. Don't guess and don't take my advice. Just look to this area first. If that is problem have someone local give you advice about how to correct it.

good luck,

drill

[DamageG]

Ray,
My understanding of THT is that it is an attempt to pull the hands apart and thus widen the hinge angle. Would you agree?

[tom.guerry]

ray-

The "you" was sort of a generic "one" or my personal experience sort of thing.

i find it useful to teach throw and hit together and I find it very rare that a kid knows how to break the hands right in the overhand throw, but they do occasionally get it by trial and error because they throw A LOT, and they have more objective feedback they understand in terms of spin and target/results.

Kids do not have a clue now a days how these same motions are needed for hitting to load right which requires handle torque.

I think this is the same area Williams was describing 40 yrs ago in terms of how few kids "naturally" learned how to cok the hips.

one of the BIG realizations over revcent years has been that the upper body/arms/ hands are controlling the pattern here. The lower body will not encourage the hands to get to the right place/apply the right forces.

[dannyboy]

Gregg,

hi.
i really don’t like to agree with anything until i have an understanding of what it is that i’m being asked to agree with. and i, respectfully, don’t understand your question.
and i have to admit that after all these years i still don’t feel as though i completely understand Jack, though i don’t feel that that’s all my fault. and i really don’t feel that i’m qualified to speak for someone else, unless granted permission.

but and so…..

“…attempt to pull the hands apart…” - of course i could be wrong but, i don’t think that you mean apart from each other, do you? and if not (if you please), then pull the hands apart from what?

and

what you mean by hinge?

and

what you mean by angle?


thanks

[DamageG]

Ray,
Happy to provide a more detailed description.

“…attempt to pull the hands apart…” - of course i could be wrong but, i don’t think that you mean apart from each other, do you? and if not (if you please), then pull the hands apart from what?


By apart, I'm talking about applying force that is perpendicular to the length of the bat. If the bat is held in the middle of the body and pointing straight up, each hand is applying force that would move the hands away from the center of the body. Since the forces are equal and opposite, no translation of the bat occurs but torque is applied and the barrel rotates.

My definition of "hinge angle" is the angle between the forearm of the bottom hand and the bat. In the Bonds slo-mo clip, this would be the angle between the yellow lines at the beginning of the swing. Which for Bonds is less than 90 degrees.

As I see it, the application of torque as defined above would widen the hinge angle. In the Bonds clip, I do not see any widening of the hinge angle in the beginning of the swing. This is one of the reasons that I do not believe that hand torque plays any significant role in a high level swing.

[dannyboy]

Gregg,

it's early morning in pgh. and i'm havin' my coffee, ready to head out. i'm so glad you replied, and i just wanted to let you know that i'm tippin' my coffee cup to toast the beginning of what i know will be a great discussion (hope you share my zeal).
i'll be back tonight, and i have to tell you that i'm going on vacation wednesday. don't have a lap top, and do have a wife that doesn't share the same passion that i have for baseball. i think that you can see where i'm going. please promise me, that if we don't complete our discussion (which i don't think will happen) before i go, that we can pick-up where we leave off.

that said:

i believe that the application of torque (as you defined in your last post [although not necessarily by the hand as much as through it {the hand does apply some}]) does not necessarily have to result in the widening of the hinge angle (as you define)(although, it does later). and further, that this ties into the point that i have made throughout this thread - considering all degrees of freedom in the arms and analyzing in three dimensions.

thanks,
be back tonight.

[dannyboy]

what i meant:

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzep5xd2/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/angles.JPG

[Chris O'Leary]

LClifton, That clip is pretty close to the angle he does. I will have to look at the arm and bat position. One thing he does have is a very long stride

Tilting over the plate is normal.

Sounds like the problem could be sliding under the ball due to the long stride. Try shortening up the stride.

[DamageG]

Ray,
In your 3D views, is the bat the green segment in both?

Maybe we could say that the angle between the bat and top hand is the top hinge angle and the angle between the bottom hand and bat is bottom hinge angle.

[Tanner]

Just practice not dropping your hands. Have someone throw you bp with a tee behind you. If you hit the tee, you know you are doing it wrong

[dannyboy]

Gregg,

sorry for the confusion. totally my fault. man, you always think things are so clear...

anyhow, your "hinge angle" definition is better than mine. let's stick with that, for now.

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzep5xd2/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/reviseddemo.JPG

does this help?
if the bathead travels from "A" to "B" (towards the catcher), and the lead forearm stays stationary, the hinge angle increases.

if the bathead travels from "C" to "D" (towards the first base dugout), the hinge angle in the demo remains the same.

actually, quite a few hitters start/started the bat out behind them ("C" to "D" direction): bonds, ruth, yastremski, banks, reggie, mantle, mays, williams and your kid does too, Gregg. that puts him in some great company.
one thing i might add, that may cause me to upset you (but, what the hell), is that i believe your son torques the bat. and it's hand torque.

going back to your definition:
By apart, I'm talking about applying force that is perpendicular to the length of the bat. If the bat is held in the middle of the body and pointing straight up, each hand is applying force that would move the hands away from the center of the body. Since the forces are equal and opposite, no translation of the bat occurs but torque is applied and the barrel rotates.

you could freeze the wrists and forearm rotation and rotate the shoulder joints to work the top hand elbow down and the bottom hand elbow up to rotate the barrel.
or you could freeze the shoulder rotation and try to freeze the wrists, and just rely on the forearm rotation to rotate the barrel.
or you could freeze the shoulder rotation and the forearm rotation, and just use the wrists to rotate the barrel.

but what i believe really happens is a combination (along with upper torso rotation, upper torso tilt, hip rotation, --- all sorts of rotation). to say that all of it works except one part (hand torque, if you will) is in my opinion (and at the risk of offending you [which i really don't want to do]) being too narrow minded.

i personally like the movement that all those hitters that i listed share. the movement, in my opinion, aids timing, power, and accuracy. how it does is for another discussion.

[joof]

Ray and Gregg - Just want to say that the post I quoted below and earlier ones relating to the hinge angle and more is what these forums could be all about. I applaud your effort in trying to sort out the particulars of a complex movement pattern. The diagrams and their use are most helpful.

Will continue to read with interest.


joof




Gregg,

sorry for the confusion. totally my fault. man, you always think things are so clear...

anyhow, your "hinge angle" definition is better than mine. let's stick with that, for now.



does this help?
if the bathead travels from "A" to "B" (towards the catcher), and the lead forearm stays stationary, the hinge angle increases.

if the bathead travels from "C" to "D" (towards the first base dugout), the hinge angle in the demo remains the same.

actually, quite a few hitters start/started the bat out behind them ("C" to "D" direction): bonds, ruth, yastremski, banks, reggie, mantle, mays, williams and your kid does too, Gregg. that puts him in some great company.
one thing i might add, that may cause me to upset you (but, what the hell), is that i believe your son torques the bat. and it's hand torque.

going back to your definition:

Quote:
By apart, I'm talking about applying force that is perpendicular to the length of the bat. If the bat is held in the middle of the body and pointing straight up, each hand is applying force that would move the hands away from the center of the body. Since the forces are equal and opposite, no translation of the bat occurs but torque is applied and the barrel rotates.

you could freeze the wrists and forearm rotation and rotate the shoulder joints to work the top hand elbow down and the bottom hand elbow up to rotate the barrel.
or you could freeze the shoulder rotation and try to freeze the wrists, and just rely on the forearm rotation to rotate the barrel.
or you could freeze the shoulder rotation and the forearm rotation, and just use the wrists to rotate the barrel.

but what i believe really happens is a combination (along with upper torso rotation, upper torso tilt, hip rotation, --- all sorts of rotation). to say that all of it works except one part (hand torque, if you will) is in my opinion (and at the risk of offending you [which i really don't want to do]) being too narrow minded.

i personally like the movement that all those hitters that i listed share. the movement, in my opinion, aids timing, power, and accuracy. how it does is for another discussion.

[DamageG]

that may cause me to upset you

That is the last thing you need to worry about.

i believe your son torques the bat

During what part of the swing? I'll ask him. We have discussed it before and he doesn't make any attempt to do it at the beginning of the swing.

What I see is that Bonds sets up a hinge angle that is less than 90 degrees and then is connected when he rotates. So the bat arcs back to the catcher and no hand torque is applied to start. Like you describe the force is transmitted to the hands from the torso. As he progresses, the double pendulum action starts widening the hinge angle.

Is there hand torque in addition to the double pendulum action as the hinge angle increases? Maybe, but I think that the momentum created by the connected rotation is so great that any hand torque is insignificant and would likely interfere with the natural momentum transfer.

Understanding the reality of the swing is intersting and can be very helpful but in the end, all I care about is how to develop a player. So I can say with great confidence that if hand torque plays some role in the swing, you do not have to teach a player to do it. I never, ever, ever, never say anything about hand torque.

[tom.guerry]

Damage-
I think the question you might consider is when does cusp reverse ?

Only then does the shoulder link get driven by the uncoiling/"rotation".

If you look at the slomo Bonds clip (?frame rate 90fps, ? other) with the yellow lines highlighting the forearms and bat, this does not happen until the last highlighted frame (Ray highlighted 5 frames with the yellow lines).

[tom.guerry]

"cusp" has been measured in golf and maxes out in the downswing when the hands are back down to about the 9 o'clock position.more expert players have more cusp maxing out further down into the downswing.

See

http://www.advancedmotionmeasurement.com/html/XFactorStretch2.htm

Some excerpts from text (in addition to eccentric/concentric muscle contraction and stretch receptor reflex stimulation, the elastic properites of soft tissue are important in reversal of cusp supporting transfer of momentum):

"The purpose of our study was to quantify the X-Factor’s increase on the down swing. Specifically to test the hypotheses that highly skilled golfers have a higher X-Factor at top of the back swing (as found by McTeigue et.al.) and also have a greater increase in X-Factor early in the down swing than less-skilled golfers. We term this increase the “X-Factor Stretch” and consider it to be at least as important as the X-Factor itself. In order to test our idea we captured and analyzed several swings from 10 expert golfers and 9 less skilled golfers, using the AIM-3D 3D-Golf™ motion measurement system.




"Research has shown, that extra stretch on muscle, and active resistance to this stretch, can increase the force of contraction of muscle. Several mechanisms are responsible for this. A rapid rotation of the pelvis early in the down swing may trigger sensitive stretch receptors (called muscle spindles) in the muscles to quickly shorten the muscle.
Therefore, as the hips initially rotate forward toward the ball, the maximally stretched rotational muscles of the trunk respond by a faster and more forceful contraction. A second mechanism relates to stored elastic energy in the muscles. The opposing directions of the shoulders and hips at the top of the back swing will stretch the torso muscle facilitating storage and finally release of elastic energy. The end result is that the X-Factor Stretch increases the force production on the down swing, facilitating greater club head speed at impact.
After contrasting the X-Factor at the top of the back swing and at its maximum early in the down swing for highly skilled and less skilled golfers, we found that the X-Factor at the top of the back swing was not significantly larger for the highly skilled players than less skilled players. We also found that both highly skilled and less skilled golfers did increase their X-Factor early in the down swing. They did not immediately begin to rapidly close the X-Factor. Finally, we found that this stretch of the X-Factor early in the down swing was significantly greater for the highly skilled golfers than less skilled golfers.


In conclusion our results suggest that:

-X-Factor Stretch is more important to an effective swing than simply X-Factor at top of back swing and that the X-Factor should actually increase early in the down swing before it rapidly decreases to impact.


Also that the aim of the back swing is not just to put the golfer in the correct position for the down swing, but also to dynamically tension the torso muscles correctly to allow them to contract maximally during the down swing.

[dannyboy]

Gregg,

What I see is that Bonds sets up a hinge angle that is less than 90 degrees and then is connected when he rotates.

Gregg, what do you mean by “connected”? Connected to what, or what is connected to what? What are the physical parameters of connection? What defines not being connected?
You said Bonds is connected “…when he rotates”, - rotates what? Hips, upper torso, etc.?

You also said:
So the bat arcs back to the catcher and no hand torque is applied to start.

Do you have absolute proof for such an absolute statement?

You say he arcs the bat back to the catcher --- here is the complete clip:

http://www.swingtraining.net/image/clips/bonds-720.mpg

“…back to the catcher…” ? Seems like you ignored my explanation of why the hinge angle doesn’t necessarily have to increase?

…but I think that the momentum created by the connected rotation is so great that any hand torque is insignificant…

Had that discussion with JJA. Even if it was only 5%, couldn’t that make the difference between an out and a home run. Or a single through 51/2? If so, then why not make use of it?

… and would likely interfere with the natural momentum transfer.
Well here, if given the choice, of disturbing natural momentum transfer or getting the sweet on the ball – which would you choose, and how would you go about it?

I think perhaps that our views differ most because you seem more rule based and I more instance based. Do batters have the same momentum transfer on a 75 mph bender low and away and a 90 mph fastball in the red zone?

I don’t believe that hand torque occurs with every batter on every swing. Don’t know if you’ve read any of the links I have posted (post #29) regarding interaction torques between joints.

You can ask your son, but at some point, you don't think, 'Three times four is 12.' It just is. Besides as Berrra asked, "how can you think and hit at the same time?"

According to your definition of hand torque (post #34), I said I believe your son torques the bat and you asked during what part of the swing. Well I can show you a lot easier than explain, but I would need your permission first, to post clips of him. Believe me Gregg, I could very well understand your objection, and I will certainly honor any decision you make.

As regards your last paragraph and player development:
Seconded. I coach high school boys baseball and mechanics are certainly not the mainstay of what I coach, but nice to know.

Goin’ on vacaaay, see you next week.

[dannyboy]

joof,

thanks. feel free to jump in.