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BoardMember
07-09-2007, 07:03 PM
You gotta love HD. I'm in heaven.
"Last minute wrist action"......."Flip-it!".....
Sounds very familiar........Gotta love it!
Anyone going to make clips of the swing?
Williamsburg2599
07-09-2007, 07:26 PM
How the heck did Morgan even make it to the pros, let alone make it to the HoF? He said the reason that Howard won last year was he "used his hands" for power.:crazy :cry: :o :sigh: :faint:
Joe Morgan knows how to hit, but he doesn't know how to teach it.
BoardMember
07-09-2007, 07:58 PM
What he knows is what he feels. Something most "Monday-Morning" hitters have no idea about......
Joe Morgan knows how to hit, but he doesn't know how to teach it.
Slapper23
07-09-2007, 08:22 PM
Coach (BM), you are right on the mark. Who wouldn't love to sit down with Joe Morgan and talk hitting?
Mike
Stealth
07-09-2007, 08:47 PM
BoardMember - why did you have to bring this up. I was laughing as I heard the comment:laugh
I might laugh harder at some of the expected replies!
BoardMember
07-09-2007, 09:22 PM
Pujols "flippin-it" into contact:
http://i14.tinypic.com/4ldajvo.gif
BoardMember - why did you have to bring this up. I was laughing as I heard the comment:laugh
I might laugh harder at some of the expected replies!
sparks504
07-09-2007, 09:25 PM
.....HD rox, i watched it on my 42" Panasonic Plasma in HD.....the extreme slo mo of the swings was an awesome thing of beauty to watch. These fellas have some awesome power too, Matt Holliday, Alex Rios, Albert Pujols and of course Blad Vlad, my hats off to Bad Vlad, always liked him, Congrats Vlad :)
BoardMember
07-09-2007, 09:32 PM
Vlad the Scap-Load King! Vlad HR King!
Gee Go figure.........
.....HD rox, i watched it on my 42" Panasonic Plasma in HD.....the extreme slo mo of the swings was an awesome thing of beauty to watch. These fellas have some awesome power too, Matt Holliday, Alex Rios, Albert Pujols and of course Blad Vlad, my hats off to Bad Vlad, always liked him, Congrats Vlad :)
beisbolcrazy22
07-09-2007, 11:59 PM
Vlad is the man.....and I agree. Love that slow mo action showing these guys absolutely crush those baseballs. A thing of beauty
I was rooting for Pujols. Surprised he didn't do better. I was impressed with his opposite field shots in the 2003 event.
I did notice some changes in Pujols' swing from years past, though.
Jake Patterson
07-10-2007, 05:07 AM
Pujols "flippin-it" into contact:
Please define "Flippin it."
Whitesoxnut
07-10-2007, 07:18 AM
You gotta love HD. I'm in heaven.
"Last minute wrist action"......."Flip-it!".....
Sounds very familiar........Gotta love it!
I love watching baseball on my HDTV with surround sound audio. Its almost like a different game in HD.:nod:
jenKins887
07-10-2007, 07:25 AM
Big Papi showed Vlad his magic stick...
BoardMember
07-10-2007, 08:55 AM
Please define "Flippin it."
Here you go Jake:
Flippin-it! (http://video.tinypic.com/player.php?v=5xdg5lc) :nod:
tom.guerry
07-10-2007, 08:56 AM
morgan could definitely do it.
loved the back arm
"flap".
probably could teach it. for info, see HITTING FOR DUMMIES, he is lead author.
may not describe it in ways that all agree with.
as far as flip it, the underlying mechanics of this part of the swing are most similar to double pendulum.
http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~plynch/SwingingSpring/doublependulum.html
this is a fun simulation to play around with. you can stop and go and restart and trace lines and even see some running start effect.
then you can see how the ironnyman models compare which have some more things programmed in to resemble a swing more.
BoardMember
07-10-2007, 09:41 AM
Chipper Flippper:
Chipper Flipper (http://video.tinypic.com/player.php?v=5zf2yyd)
morgan could definitely do it.
loved the back arm
"flap".
probably could teach it. for info, see HITTING FOR DUMMIES, he is lead author.
may not describe it in ways that all agree with.
as far as flip it, the underlying mechanics of this part of the swing are most similar to double pendulum.
http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~plynch/SwingingSpring/doublependulum.html
this is a fun simulation to play around with. you can stop and go and restart and trace lines and even see some running start effect.
then you can see how the ironnyman models compare which have some more things programmed in to resemble a swing more.
Go Cardinals
07-10-2007, 10:12 AM
I was there, and Vlads last ball to win it, I almost caught it... I could of if i pushed someone, but I was too nice...
Jake Patterson
07-10-2007, 11:23 AM
Here you go Jake:
Flippin-it! (http://video.tinypic.com/player.php?v=5xdg5lc) :nod:
Are you talking about rolling the hands at the end??
BoardMember
07-10-2007, 12:49 PM
Jake, did you watch the clip and listen to the comentary?
Are you talking about rolling the hands at the end??
tom.guerry
07-10-2007, 04:45 PM
the guys talking know how to hit.
as Dusty says in BM's clip, roy campanella told him to flip it and this helped dusty improve when he wasn't hitting well.
I think this is the same thing Bonds means when he says "meet my top hand".
And it's the same think Williams describes in SCIENCE OF HITTING, where he describes the top hand as being the power hand.
"Revert briefly to what I said about unbroken wrists and the importance of hip action. You can tie the three together right here. Swing level (or what is commonly called down) and the tendency is to bring your top hand over the ball at impact. The effect is a tackhammer stroke, almost a "roll" - and it is NOT what you want. You'll find even without good hip action, you can swing in that manner, and the result is a minimum of power.
"But if you swing slightly UP, you HAVE to have the hips leading and then out of the way, generating speed and power, and you will find your top hand is in the strongest possible position, wrist unbroken and directly behind the ball at impact. The result: a ball hit with greater power and authority."
this is illustrated well by the Pujols clip BM posted.
when I play the clip back and forth on quicktime 1 frame at a time (quick time sometimes screws up the exact framecount/control and TV slomo can be funcky) I see 20 frames with contact being early in frame #15 and the last frame #20 being the followthorugh power "V".
clip is 60 fps.
"lag position" is about end of frame #10
this makes sense because contact is usually between 2 and 3 frames after "lag" at 30 fps.
this also fits with the MLB swing usually being about 3.5 frames 30 fps = 7 frames at 60 fps from bathead launch to contact. Bathead launch is about when the back forearm starts to lower (extension at elbow) which is when connection is present and torso cusp/coiling is reversing to drive the bathead to contact.
so bathead launch/reversal of cusp is about frame #8.
from #8/"connection" to contact, the bat fires in what can be simplified as a 2D plane via mechanics that most resemble double pendulum and to a slightly less degree, ball on string.
this was also described by me in post #5 here:
http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=63805
in this case, let's follow pujols from bathead launch to followthrough, frame by frame:
#8 bathead launches out of arc of handpath. torso coiling cusp reverses. handpath radius set (ball on string type centripetal force as long as swing raidus does not lengthen/extend) by connection of shoulders to torso and tight connection of lead arm in lead shoulder socket, and fixed angle at lead elbow (BM hinge angle). back elbow has slotted and back forearm is swivelling. back wrist is flexed/cupped. bat is already turning.
#9back forearm swiveling/supinating and lowering, increasing angle/extension at back elbow. back elbow stays at side opposite seam of jersey, lead arm pronates some before and after this
#10 at lag position, the uncoiling torso continues to accelerate the connected shoulders/lead arm/lead forearm (which constitute the first pendulum of the double pendulum). during this time the lead wrist which is the hinge between the two pendulums stays coked/hinged because the bat/second pendulum is resisting being accelerated. see double pendulum simulation to see how hinge angle (lead wrist hinge angle, not BM/lead elbow hinge angle) narrows when first pendulum starts accelerating.
There is no need to hold on to retain hinge angle at this point as long as the swing is being driven by uncoiling of the torso as mlb swings are.
at the same time the back forearm has lowerd more and the back wrist cupped/flexed more, handle torque continues to resist letting the hinge angle narrow too much.
#11 aboout here, the hinge angle starts to widen which will transfer momentum much faster to turn the bathead and will decelerate the first pendulum. from here to contact, the torso needs to keep uncoiling and the lead shoulder and lead arm need to stay firmly connected, BUT as the bathead continues to accelerate and as the hinge angle of the lead wrist continues to widen, the angle at the lead elbow will reactively also start to widen.
back elbow has stayed at slot. back forearm has lowered/extended more and supinated more and back wrist is still cupped/flexed.
#12 more of same
#13 lead wrist continues to unhinge, angle at lead elbow starts to widen (lead forearm becomes part of the "hinge" apparatus connecting the second pendulum at this point). back elbow starts to go forward some away from side/slot. flex/cup coming out of back wrist
#14 more of same. notice at this point the lead wrist has unhinged so that the bat is now lined up with the forearm AND the lead wrist (NOT THE TOP HAND WRIST) has started to "roll"/supinate which does not cause a bind/"topping" because the wrist is neutrally positioned, not "drooped" and has largely unhinged.
#15 this continues as TOP HAND WRIST "FLIPS" through contact. top hand wrist does not roll. top hand wrist does not uncock like a rolling "tackhammer" stroke.top hand is still largely coked at/through contact (because swing is powered adequately by torso coil/double pendulum action).
shoulders and lead arm still tightly connected right up until this point.
Again - Williams description:
"But if you swing slightly UP, you HAVE to have the hips leading and then out of the way, generating speed and power, and you will find your top hand is in the strongest possible position, wrist unbroken and directly behind the ball at impact. The result: a ball hit with greater power and authority."
#16 in this frame and the next, notice as a result of going ballistic/being pulled by bat followthrough after max batspeed right at contact, the back scap unloads/unpinches away from the spine with some space forming between the letters "L" and "S" on PUJOLS JERSEY.
As soon as this scap unpinches, the other one has to as well, "because" that's how connection/disconnection works in the mlb pattern.
#17
#18 no top wrist "roll" until here.
#19
#20 bat release pulls arms/shoulders to extension/"V"
To get the desired "flip" feel, a lot has to go right in a universal manner through the entire swing.
BoardMember
07-11-2007, 01:14 AM
As mentioned in the clip, "last minute wrist action" and "flip it into contact" go hand in hand.
As the bottom hand and arm unloads from the body, torque is created against the lead hand and forearm causing the last "kick" into contact.
Tom, as you well know, I discussed this on eteamz at length and was rolled by both you and Richard. In fact here's my quote from back on May 9th, long before the MLB HR Derby:
"It stays cocked(in lag) as long as possible, and "UNCOCKS" or flips the bathead into contact."
Here's a link to that entire thread: http://eteamz.active.com/fastpitch/boards/fastpitch/message.cfm?id=1889200
It seems to me that everytime I tell you what hitting really feels like, you first disagree, then somehow change your stance to agree on a different thread or a different forum, which again, is the case here. If you continue to pay attention, you will continue to learn. If that's how you learn, I'm fine with it.
Here is Chipper "kickin-it" or "flippin-it" into contact. You will find that it very closely matches the Pujols clip except Pujols stays inside much longer and has the strength to maintain lag longer in the sequence:
http://i17.tinypic.com/632q491.gifhttp://i14.tinypic.com/4ldajvo.gif
While the double pendulum is fun to play with, it is lacking the torque nessessary to create the flip effect described here. Also, If you change the parameters to more closely match the human body, IE the first lever should be approx. 25% shorter then the second, as the arms are approx 26" long on a six foot two inch human, and the bat can be as long as 35", you will see the "whip effect" is greatly reduced, showing that torque is required to create the "flip" or "kick".
One more thing you may take notice of is how the hands are "tied" to the hips, and actually lead the hips to contact. The hips absolutely DO NOT lead the hands more then a fraction in the swing. In fact, the hands are into the contact zone before hip completion.
HiddenGem noted this on a previous thread. He said he trys to keep his hands connected to his hips during sequence initiation.
the guys talking know how to hit.
as Dusty says in BM's clip, roy campanella told him to flip it and this helped dusty improve when he wasn't hitting well.
I think this is the same thing Bonds means when he says "meet my top hand".
And it's the same think Williams describes in SCIENCE OF HITTING, where he describes the top hand as being the power hand.
"Revert briefly to what I said about unbroken wrists and the importance of hip action. You can tie the three together right here. Swing level (or what is commonly called down) and the tendency is to bring your top hand over the ball at impact. The effect is a tackhammer stroke, almost a "roll" - and it is NOT what you want. You'll find even without good hip action, you can swing in that manner, and the result is a minimum of power.
"But if you swing slightly UP, you HAVE to have the hips leading and then out of the way, generating speed and power, and you will find your top hand is in the strongest possible position, wrist unbroken and directly behind the ball at impact. The result: a ball hit with greater power and authority."
this is illustrated well by the Pujols clip BM posted.
when I play the clip back and forth on quicktime 1 frame at a time (quick time sometimes screws up the exact framecount/control and TV slomo can be funcky) I see 20 frames with contact being early in frame #15 and the last frame #20 being the followthorugh power "V".
clip is 60 fps.
"lag position" is about end of frame #10
this makes sense because contact is usually between 2 and 3 frames after "lag" at 30 fps.
this also fits with the MLB swing usually being about 3.5 frames 30 fps = 7 frames at 60 fps from bathead launch to contact. Bathead launch is about when the back forearm starts to lower (extension at elbow) which is when connection is present and torso cusp/coiling is reversing to drive the bathead to contact.
so bathead launch/reversal of cusp is about frame #8.
from #8/"connection" to contact, the bat fires in what can be simplified as a 2D plane via mechanics that most resemble double pendulum and to a slightly less degree, ball on string.
this was also described by me in post #5 here:
http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=63805
in this case, let's follow pujols from bathead launch to followthrough, frame by frame:
#8 bathead launches out of arc of handpath. torso coiling cusp reverses. handpath radius set (ball on string type centripetal force as long as swing raidus does not lengthen/extend) by connection of shoulders to torso and tight connection of lead arm in lead shoulder socket, and fixed angle at lead elbow (BM hinge angle). back elbow has slotted and back forearm is swivelling. back wrist is flexed/cupped. bat is already turning.
#9back forearm swiveling/supinating and lowering, increasing angle/extension at back elbow. back elbow stays at side opposite seam of jersey, lead arm pronates some before and after this
#10 at lag position, the uncoiling torso continues to accelerate the connected shoulders/lead arm/lead forearm (which constitute the first pendulum of the double pendulum). during this time the lead wrist which is the hinge between the two pendulums stays coked/hinged because the bat/second pendulum is resisting being accelerated. see double pendulum simulation to see how hinge angle (lead wrist hinge angle, not BM/lead elbow hinge angle) narrows when first pendulum starts accelerating.
There is no need to hold on to retain hinge angle at this point as long as the swing is being driven by uncoiling of the torso as mlb swings are.
at the same time the back forearm has lowerd more and the back wrist cupped/flexed more, handle torque continues to resist letting the hinge angle narrow too much.
#11 aboout here, the hinge angle starts to widen which will transfer momentum much faster to turn the bathead and will decelerate the first pendulum. from here to contact, the torso needs to keep uncoiling and the lead shoulder and lead arm need to stay firmly connected, BUT as the bathead continues to accelerate and as the hinge angle of the lead wrist continues to widen, the angle at the lead elbow will reactively also start to widen.
back elbow has stayed at slot. back forearm has lowered/extended more and supinated more and back wrist is still cupped/flexed.
#12 more of same
#13 lead wrist continues to unhinge, angle at lead elbow starts to widen (lead forearm becomes part of the "hinge" apparatus connecting the second pendulum at this point). back elbow starts to go forward some away from side/slot. flex/cup coming out of back wrist
#14 more of same. notice at this point the lead wrist has unhinged so that the bat is now lined up with the forearm AND the lead wrist (NOT THE TOP HAND WRIST) has started to "roll"/supinate which does not cause a bind/"topping" because the wrist is neutrally positioned, not "drooped" and has largely unhinged.
#15 this continues as TOP HAND WRIST "FLIPS" through contact. top hand wrist does not roll. top hand wrist does not uncock like a rolling "tackhammer" stroke.top hand is still largely coked at/through contact (because swing is powered adequately by torso coil/double pendulum action).
shoulders and lead arm still tightly connected right up until this point.
Again - Williams description:
"But if you swing slightly UP, you HAVE to have the hips leading and then out of the way, generating speed and power, and you will find your top hand is in the strongest possible position, wrist unbroken and directly behind the ball at impact. The result: a ball hit with greater power and authority."
#16 in this frame and the next, notice as a result of going ballistic/being pulled by bat followthrough after max batspeed right at contact, the back scap unloads/unpinches away from the spine with some space forming between the letters "L" and "S" on PUJOLS JERSEY.
As soon as this scap unpinches, the other one has to as well, "because" that's how connection/disconnection works in the mlb pattern.
#17
#18 no top wrist "roll" until here.
#19
#20 bat release pulls arms/shoulders to extension/"V"
To get the desired "flip" feel, a lot has to go right in a universal manner through the entire swing.
tominct
07-11-2007, 05:04 AM
As mentioned in the clip, "last minute wrist action" and "flip it into contact" go hand in hand.
As the bottom hand and arm unloads from the body, torque is created against the lead hand and forearm causing the last "kick" into contact.
Tom, as you well know, I discussed this on eteamz at length and was rolled by both you and Richard. In fact here's my quote from back on May 9th, long before the MLB HR Derby:
"It stays cocked(in lag) as long as possible, and "UNCOCKS" or flips the bathead into contact."
Here's a link to that entire thread: http://eteamz.active.com/fastpitch/boards/fastpitch/message.cfm?id=1889200
It seems to me that everytime I tell you what hitting really feels like, you first disagree, then somehow change your stance to agree on a different thread or a different forum, which again, is the case here. If you continue to pay attention, you will continue to learn. If that's how you learn, I'm fine with it.
Here is Chipper "kickin-it" or "flippin-it" into contact. You will find that it very closely matches the Pujols clip except Pujols stays inside much longer and has the strength to maintain lag longer in the sequence:
http://i17.tinypic.com/632q491.gifhttp://i14.tinypic.com/4ldajvo.gif
While the double pendulum is fun to play with, it is lacking the torque nessessary to create the flip effect described here. Also, If you change the parameters to more closely match the human body, IE the first lever should be approx. 25% shorter then the second, as the arms are approx 26" long on a six foot two inch human, and the bat can be as long as 35", you will see the "whip effect" is greatly reduced, showing that torque is required to create the "flip" or "kick".
One more thing you may take notice of is how the hands are "tied" to the hips, and actually lead the hips to contact. The hips absolutely DO NOT lead the hands more then a fraction in the swing. In fact, the hands are into the contact zone before hip completion.
HiddenGem noted this on a previous thread. He said he trys to keep his hands connected to his hips during sequence initiation.
I want these clips, how do I save them?
Tom
Jake Patterson
07-11-2007, 06:56 AM
I want these clips, how do I save them?
Tom
Right click - "Save As" - Make sure it's in your pictures.
tominct
07-12-2007, 08:16 PM
Right click - "Save As" - Make sure it's in your pictures.
Bu that only gives me the first frame.
Tom
Jake Patterson
07-12-2007, 08:18 PM
Bu that only gives me the first frame.
Tom
Hmmm maybe BM can help???
Bu that only gives me the first frame.
Tom
When you save it, all the frames are there in the file. If you are using Paint to view it, only the first frame can be seen. You need the correct software to actually view all frames of an animated GIF. I actually want to know what program that is. Boardmember? Also what software are you using to make the GIF's? Are there any that are free? Thanks.
Williamsburg2599
07-12-2007, 08:57 PM
When you save it, all the frames are there in the file. If you are using Paint to view it, only the first frame can be seen. You need the correct software to actually view all frames of an animated GIF. I actually want to know what program that is. Boardmember? Also what software are you using to make the GIF's? Are there any that are free? Thanks.
Windows Picture and Fax Viewer works for me. It comes standard on Windows XP Media Center Edition.