clip of my swing, how can i take it to the next level

[baseball2234]

heres a clip of my swing..now that i look at my swing on a screen i see that its not that good. What i have going for me is that im a good natural hitter, with that swing ive been hitting well all my life. Now i want to take it to the next level. what flaws are there to fix? thanks a lot
http://youtube.com/watch?v=sW9LA1_0yBQ

[kylebee]

You're swinging down on the ball - that's probably why you're hitting a ton of grounders.

[XV84]

Some flaws that I see.

Weight isn't shifting to the front foot. Squishing the bug.

No inward turn on the stride to load the hips. You're basically just stepping into the pitch, reaching almost.

Front foot, weight should be on ball of foot not heel. Ok to be on heel AFTER contact.

Back elbow not dropped and next to rib cage.

Seems like you're not using your hips well enough and using alot of upper body.

[chesspirate]

[jbooth]

heres a clip of my swing..now that i look at my swing on a screen i see that its not that good. What i have going for me is that im a good natural hitter, with that swing ive been hitting well all my life. Now i want to take it to the next level. what flaws are there to fix? thanks a lot
http://youtube.com/watch?v=sW9LA1_0yBQ

You're swinging like this;



When you should swing like this;



The hands START toward the ball, then the shoulder drops, the hands turn up and the bathead goes down and up. You should not throw the bathead down at the ball. The hands sort of go down at the ball, but they turn up, to get the bathead down and then go through the flight path of the ball, not down across the flight path.

[korp]

You're swinging like this;



When you should swing like this;



The hands START toward the ball, then the shoulder drops, the hands turn up and the bathead goes down and up. You should not throw the bathead down at the ball. The hands sort of go down at the ball, but they turn up, to get the bathead down and then go through the flight path of the ball, not down across the flight path.

Well said. It seems to me you are doing exactly probably what your coaches want. This is not a bad thing.... but I have heard so many coaches preach swing down on the ball and it gets people in trouble. "Swing Down on the Ball" this approach is good for when people can't field the ball because it causes hard hit ground balls and line drives when its not doing that. As in the picture from the last comment imagine a slight loop that the red dots illustrate. That is the type of plane you want. You also want to hit the bottom 1/3 of the ball which causes the ball to sail for distance. Now you may be a fast runner but david eckstein who is also fast uses the same type of swing so it must work well even for that.






None of them swing straight down on the ball.

As for the video it seems like your weight is going to your backside a little. The reason why pro players front foot turns is because of the rotational power they have. They still have great balance .. well most of them do. Another thing I noticed is you kind of throw your hands at the ball which I know coaches say to do to .. throw the nob at the ball whatever ... but in those pictures above the pro's have their back elbow in close to their side not out. When its an outside pitch its a little off their side but its still relatively close. Below is a link that will take you through "Rotational Hitting" which is a pro swing and has several examples and in depth slide slows.

Click Here (http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/RethinkingHitting/Essays/RotationalHitting.html)

[Whitesoxnut]

If its one phrase I cant stand hearing its "swing down on the ball". 2234 look at your video and then look at the pro-batter korp posted. See how the batters hip rotation is far ahead of his bat? What that means is all the tourque from those hips exploding open will be transferred to the bat. Now look at your swing? If anything your leading the hips with the bat.

I'd put the bat down and just do some rotational drills and getting your weight to the front. And be patient dude. Its going to take awhiles to get the mechanics straight.

[baseball2234]

alright thanks guys.. ill work on my swing plane and using my hips more. Ill have another clip posted while im actually hitting the ball because my swing is probably much different there.

[korp]

If its one phrase I cant stand hearing its "swing down on the ball". 2234 look at your video and then look at the pro-batter korp posted. See how the batters hip rotation is far ahead of his bat? What that means is all the tourque from those hips exploding open will be transferred to the bat. Now look at your swing? If anything your leading the hips with the bat.

I'd put the bat down and just do some rotational drills and getting your weight to the front. And be patient dude. Its going to take awhiles to get the mechanics straight.

Right on ... swinging down on the ball has to be about one of the most annoying tips you can get after you examine a pro player's swing ahhhh. If I had a nickel for everytime I heard my college coaches say that last season ... well "I'd be a rich man".

[Go Cardinals]

I have a perfect rotational swing... I make contact like the pro's.... etc., but when I am about to hit, I swing kind of down on the ball, so I don't get too much under it, and pop it up.....

[baseball2234]

is this whole weight shift thing supposed to feel like a natural movement? or does it take a lot of practice to get, because it really doesnt feel natural when i try and do it. I feel like im like lunging at it almost and specially when i put the pitching machine on a pitch speed that i would see in a game its hard to stride then shift weight then swing rather than striding and swinging.

[XV84]

Your weight isn't shifting correctly because your hips aren't rotating quick enough. Also your shoulders are rotating along with your hips. It seems like you're too tense between the shoulders and hips. You aren't getting enough separation between your hips and shoulders. Relax your abs so that the rotation of the hips stretches those muscles, they will reflex and "pull" the shoulders around.

You can start with the hands lower, closer to your right shoulder, to decrease that downswing.

[korp]

When you rotate your hips but not your upper body you should feel a pull in your midsection .. this is your torque or power if you have everything going together its not using all the resources. It also the unnatural movement could be due to changing your swing. Nothing ever feels natural when you change your habits. Its possible that after you practice it alot it could still not feel right in which case you might be doing something wrong. Make sure and think .... fire those hips as hard as you can.

[jed donovan]

Right on ... swinging down on the ball has to be about one of the most annoying tips you can get after you examine a pro player's swing ahhhh. If I had a nickel for everytime I heard my college coaches say that last season ... well "I'd be a rich man". maybe you should have listened. try reading articles from REAL mlb hitting coaches and hear what they have to say. go to www.hittingworld.com and click on tips and drills. oakland a's dave hudgens (hitting coach) gives out some good info. besure to read all his posts. google dusty baker slap the hands down and read his article on hitting the high pitch or his chair drill for hitters with an uppercut. let me know what you think. bat head needs to stay above the hands in the first part of the swing until a few frames before contact. don't watch the bat next time you veiw a game swing watch the hands, they go down!!

[jbooth]

maybe you should have listened. try reading articles from REAL mlb hitting coaches and hear what they have to say. go to www.hittingworld.com and click on tips and drills. oakland a's dave hudgens (hitting coach) gives out some good info. besure to read all his posts. google dusty baker slap the hands down and read his article on hitting the high pitch or his chair drill for hitters with an uppercut. let me know what you think. bat head needs to stay above the hands in the first part of the swing until a few frames before contact. don't watch the bat next time you veiw a game swing watch the hands, they go down!!

If you want to guarantee that you will never hit well, then go ahead and listen to Hudgens' advice, and Baker's.
The only thing you should do with that chair drill, is chop it up and use it for firewood.
The A's hit .270 as a team before Hudgens and .235 with him, and went back to .268 after he was fired. And Baker, as a player, never swung like he teaches.

[jed donovan]

If you want to guarantee that you will never hit well, then go ahead and listen to Hudgens' advice, and Baker's.
The only thing you should do with that chair drill, is chop it up and use it for firewood.
The A's hit .270 as a team before Hudgens and .235 with him, and went back to .268 after he was fired. And Baker, as a player, never swung like he teaches. mattingly no good I guess but I should listen to the greatest babe ruth coach jack mankin. Your a pro hitting coach? what org?

[achaley07]

all you need to worry about is keeping your shoulders and upper half closed longer, your hips should explode before your top half and one of the best ways to tell you are doing it right is if you finish high on your shoulder not lower on your shoulder or back.

[XV84]

Dusty Baker has good intentions, but the man does not know what he's talking about. Have you seen him on Baseball Tonight recently?

The hands go down in relation to the ground, but not in relation to the torso. The torso is not perpendicular to he ground. On a normal swing (belt high fastball), you will see this. On a high pitch at the shoulders, the torso will be more upright, therefore the hands will travel in a plane more parallel to the ground.

Hands should actually travel in a plane almost perpendicular to the torso and level with the shoulders.

[korp]

maybe you should have listened. try reading articles from REAL mlb hitting coaches and hear what they have to say. go to www.hittingworld.com and click on tips and drills. oakland a's dave hudgens (hitting coach) gives out some good info. besure to read all his posts. google dusty baker slap the hands down and read his article on hitting the high pitch or his chair drill for hitters with an uppercut. let me know what you think. bat head needs to stay above the hands in the first part of the swing until a few frames before contact. don't watch the bat next time you veiw a game swing watch the hands, they go down!!

I never said hitting down on the ball wasn't a way to approach hitting. The point is you have to look at the facts and when I say facts I mean pictures and swings broken down. Hitting down on the ball if done right is a very out dated type of swing which worked in the 70s and 80s but now my friend the days of hitting hard ground balls on purpose all the time to skip them through is over. Its the day of the long ball or basically as long as you can hit it while staying within yourself. Majority of the players in those days did not know the benefits of lifting weights and other strengthening exercises that we know today. This is why they used that type of hitting. If this isn't the type of swing people use then why do all the pictures show different. Swinging down on the ball is a cue that should be nothing more to ensure you don't hit the ball straight up. When the ball gets higher you level off more but how are you going to hit the long ball with top spin? ... You don't. I personally was always taught the hit down on the ball until about 2 years ago when the evidence was right there showing how out dated it is. Although it works to some extent your gap hits turn into balls that die and keep you from getting extra bases. So in conclusion regardless of the cues and how they are interpreted alls you have to do is examine any major league swing and you see one thing and its consistency in mechanics throughout the league.

[jed donovan]

I never said hitting down on the ball wasn't a way to approach hitting. The point is you have to look at the facts and when I say facts I mean pictures and swings broken down. Hitting down on the ball if done right is a very out dated type of swing which worked in the 70s and 80s but now my friend the days of hitting hard ground balls on purpose all the time to skip them through is over. Its the day of the long ball or basically as long as you can hit it while staying within yourself. Majority of the players in those days did not know the benefits of lifting weights and other strengthening exercises that we know today. This is why they used that type of hitting. If this isn't the type of swing people use then why do all the pictures show different. Swinging down on the ball is a cue that should be nothing more to ensure you don't hit the ball straight up. When the ball gets higher you level off more but how are you going to hit the long ball with top spin? ... You don't. I personally was always taught the hit down on the ball until about 2 years ago when the evidence was right there showing how out dated it is. Although it works to some extent your gap hits turn into balls that die and keep you from getting extra bases. So in conclusion regardless of the cues and how they are interpreted alls you have to do is examine any major league swing and you see one thing and its consistency in mechanics throughout the league. I am just a father of a good soon to be highschool player. my son has been taking lessons with a mlb hitting coach (big leagues) for the last four years I will not state his name on the forum for he is a friend. he does not teach what you say, and your telling me down to the ball is a thing of the past?? down to the ball does not mean the bat head will be above your hands at the point of contact and the ball will go into the ground. I just wanted to help a few players on this forum with what I have been tought and what I have heard over the last few years. the hands need to work down before they go up stay inside the ball and finish high. who are you? what is your backround?

[baseball2234]

thats what i have learned also from all of my coaches...down to the ball...produces line drives. After exploring this site and reading articles and looking at clips on that siggy site im beginning to think that this rotational weight shift slight upper cut swing is the way to go

[fungo22]

thats what i have learned also from all of my coaches...down to the ball...produces line drives. After exploring this site and reading articles and looking at clips on that siggy site im beginning to think that this rotational weight shift slight upper cut swing is the way to go

BB2234:

These guys are giving you good analysis in my opinion. But "swinging down" vs. "uppercut" is not really the issue. An uppercut achieved in the wrong way will give you equally unhappy results. In fact the cue "swing down on the ball" or "hit the top half of the ball" was created to overcome the natural tendency to uppercut in the wrong way. Watch Jeter (and a buttload of others) taking practice swings in the on-deck circle and between pitches. Their practice swings are deliberately downward. But as these guys have demonstrated in this thread, when Jeter and the others get to the plate, MLB swings are not anything like downward.

The ineffecient tendency they are trying to overcome with this "swing down on the ball" thought is that of trying to whip the bat to the ball with their top hand. This is naturally achieved by leading with the back elbow as in a throwing (rock skipping) motion. Many MLB hitters do seem to lead with their back elbow, but I believe this is a result of their unloading their torso/shoulder muscles and is not an attempt to get the bat to the ball with a throwing motion in which the elbow leads. Anyway, leading with the elbow causes 2 problems. (1) it takes time for the elbow to lead out (with no accompanying movement of the bat head) and (2) the bat head tends to sweep down and under the pitch, especially if the back shoulder is dropped to go along with the dropping back elbow. In short, it is an inefficient bat path. To counteract this leading with the elbow and dropping of the back shoulder - and resulting inefficient uppercut - some high-level hitters think "swing down on the ball."

There is a famous story told by Don Slaught about Barry Bonds's downward swing path. Mark H. or SSarge can tell it better than me, so maybe one of them will oblige. The point is that the best hitters do not actually swing with a downward bat path. These gentlemen are correct, in my opinion.

[korp]

I am just a father of a good soon to be highschool player. my son has been taking lessons with a mlb hitting coach (big leagues) for the last four years I will not state his name on the forum for he is a friend. he does not teach what you say, and your telling me down to the ball is a thing of the past?? down to the ball does not mean the bat head will be above your hands at the point of contact and the ball will go into the ground. I just wanted to help a few players on this forum with what I have been tought and what I have heard over the last few years. the hands need to work down before they go up stay inside the ball and finish high. who are you? what is your backround?

I am well aware that professional people are still teaching this swing in hitting lessons. I have seen plenty of it from tons of instructors. I think this can be for two reasons .... either its good for a young not as strong hitter to use this hitting style and then convert or they still believe that using this hitting will produce massive results. It is a safer method of hitting or more of an average type of hitting. I do believe knowing this type of swing can be beneficial because frankly it will help you so when you convert at that major league level if you reach you will not be hitting everything as a popup. Linear hitting works quite well at the younger ages but as kids get stronger and the fences move back it won't work as well. Now as for my background its not important because I learn with my eyes or by watching and examining swings. Swinging down is a cue to help you not loop completely under the ball but when you actually do it you will cause a hard ground ball/top spin line drive. To go along with that not so much at the high school level but college and beyond people don't just boot a ground ball because its hard hit. Thats what makes the swing inefficient for the level. I am not trying to counter what your kid is being taught I'm just trying to make you aware of what the most successful people in the game have been using. Also ... your post earlier about Hudgens' if you read his article on rotational vs linear he says people use both which is true because if you just used one it would be completely ineffective. Ted Williams - 60% rotational 40% linear. This can be a reason to teach linear early and convert later because they both go hand in hand. A linear swing will just simply not give you the power that most people want a lot of the time. Look at the major leagues ... what position is the only one who isn't required to hit for power today? 2nd base .... even though there are 2nd basemen that can still hit for power .... giles for example.

[TG Coach]

Right on ... swinging down on the ball has to be about one of the most annoying tips you can get after you examine a pro player's swing ahhhh. If I had a nickel for everytime I heard my college coaches say that last season ... well "I'd be a rich man".

Pitching coach: Get them to hit in on the ground

Hitting coach: Swing down on the ball. Hit hard grounders and line drives

Ted Williams: Both the pitching and hitting coach are saying grounders are good. Someone is lying. It's the hitting coach.

[korp]

Haha I like that ... It does kinda make sense alot of pitchers want you to ground out not make them pee their pants when a fly ball goes to the warning track.

[tom.guerry]

cues are confusing becasue they can be interpreted in a good way,leading to the desired goal or a bad way interfering with progress to the goal.

lets assume the goal is the mlb pattern.

to guide interpretation, an underlying set of absolutes need to be in place to execute the pattern.

swing down and throw side arm can be compatible or incompatible with mlb.

the usual incompatible way of swinging down is illustrated by the animated skeleton swinging in the blue plane. notice in particular that the upper rib cage torso of the skeleton stops rotating well before contact.

an mlb swing must (absolute) be powered all the way to contact by connection to the rotating/uncoilinbg torso.

this is also compatible with the way Williams describes the mlb swing as a slight upswing which he alos points out has the advantage of being adjusted to match the pitch trajectory to give a generous contact zone.

for Williams mechanical descripiton, see esp pp45-65 of SCIENCE OF HITTING.

ESPECIALLY PP62FF "UP UP IS THE WAY".

For example, in this section on the upwsing, tying together 3 concepts - 1- swing slightly up, 2- hit with unbroken wrists and 3- importance of hip. Williams:

"Revert briefly to what I said about unbroken wrists and the importance of hip action. You can tie the three together right here. Swing level (or whatis commonly called down) and the tendency is to bring your top hand over the ball at impact. The effect is a tackhammer stroke, almost a "roll" - and it is NOT what you want. You'll find even without good hip action, you can swing in that manner, and the result is a minimum of power.

"But if you swingslightly UP, you HAVE to have the hips leading and then out of the way, generating speed and power, and youwill find your top handis in the strongest possible position, wrist unbroken and directly behind the ball at impact. The result: a ball hit withgreater power and authority."

Only a swing with adequate torso coil driven to contact by connection to uncoiling will get the hands to the contact zone with unbroken wrists. This type of swing will be an upswing.

if the swing down and throw sidearm cues enhance these mechanics (and they can) fine. if not, not fine.

in any case, the universals/absolutes must be present.

[jbooth]

You're a pro hitting coach? what org?

"Pro" doesn't have to mean that you work for a professional team. Instructing is MY profession. I do it for a living. I've studied the swing in detail for many years. If you want a Resume, here;

I've read books by Dusty Baker, Ted Williams, Mike Epstein, Tom Robson.
I purchased all of Dave Hudgens' videos and written material (later threw them in the garbage). I bought Jack Mankin's stuff (ended up ignoring a good part of it.)

I spent over 35 hours talking with, and being instructed by, Mike Epstein. I spent an hour with Rangers hitting coach Rudy Jaramillo.

I've spent a lot of time in person, on the phone, and with online chat, with Hiddengem who is a AAA pro who posts here.

I've spent time talking and coaching with a former MLB player, who coaches in my local LL and he brought his son to me, and sent many others to me.

I've studied physics, anatomy, and kinesiology to some extent, but I don't have a degree. I have Dr. Chris Yeager's video analysis of the MLB swing. He has a PhD in Human Performance, and has a lot of good stuff relating to how the body swings the bat.

And finally, I've tried it all, and discussed/debated the swing here and on other sites, and have my own beliefs that have come from all that study, and I have my own structured method of teaching the swing. I've had a lot of success improving young players' swings. I've never had a parent take their kid away from me and go to another instructor, but I HAVE had people come to me by referral, after their kid went to the local ex-AA pro who ruined the kid's swing. After I undo the ex-pro's work, the kids hit better.

There isn't any ONE method to TEACH hitting, but there are certain things that absolutely do NOT work, and if an instructor teaches those things, the student will not progress. There really isn't too much disagreement on what must happen in the swing. The majority of the debate is over how to describe it, and how to teach it.

[Mark H]

I'd suggest paying extra attention when Fungo or Jbooth post. I don't agree with every detail Booth proposes but I would have no hesitation in recommending him to a dad. No doubt he is an effective smart instructor and he has many times kept things from getting too weird here. Fungo I pretty much agree with on the details. Key on those two as well as Scott and you will be well served.

[kylebee]

Both jbooth and Mark H are credible.

[Swing Coach]

Every pro hitter's bat will start down at the ball and then come back up into contact. You can't have one without the other. A great drill is to put a chair (or tall object) behind someone hitting off a tee and tell the hitter to drive the ball over the infielders' heads. The chair will force the batter to swing forward (down at the ball) but the cue to hit it over the infield will force him to swing slightly up at contact. Putting tee down low and asking for the ball to be driven over the infield is also a great drill to produce proper swing plane.

[Jake Patterson]

I'd suggest paying extra attention when Fungo or Jbooth post. I don't agree with every detail Booth proposes but I would have no hesitation in recommending him to a dad. No doubt he is an effective smart instructor and he has many times kept things from getting too weird here. Fungo I pretty much agree with on the details. Key on those two as well as Scott and you will be well served.


Ditto .

[jed donovan]

Every pro hitter's bat will start down at the ball and then come back up into contact. You can't have one without the other. A great drill is to put a chair (or tall object) behind someone hitting off a tee and tell the hitter to drive the ball over the infielders' heads. The chair will force the batter to swing forward (down at the ball) but the cue to hit it over the infield will force him to swing slightly up at contact. Putting tee down low and asking for the ball to be driven over the infield is also a great drill to produce proper swing plane.. good post swing coach. my son has been working with an mlb hitting coach for some time now on the off season. he talks down about the epstein style when I brought it up to him. hey says that much more hitters loop or get long than chop and that has got to be on the money. he wants his hitters short to the ball staying inside the pitch and the up part of the swing goes into automatic pilot a non-teach. tells me that the up to the ball followers blaime ground balls on swinging down when that is not the case, most grounders caused by the hands getting away from the body to soon and or pulling the away pitches. when one a these flaws accure even the upper cut hitters will roll rite over the ball hitting the ball to the ground. clearly the hands go down before up even in the net flix movies the above instructors have posted. they just stress the up part of the swing to much telling others with little knowledge that ground balls are from swinging down which could be the case sometimes but most of the time from something else. korpe and booth i did not want to upset you when i asked about your backround, i hope i did not. i just wanted to see if you have had any higher learning for you stress on points and teach different form what I have listened to or been tought from the best of the best.
thank you for talking all. good luck to all of you. -jed

[jbooth]

hey says that much more hitters loop or get long than chop

One cannot make a blanket statement like that. It depends on how much training they've had, and/or how they were taught and how they implemented it. Many young players who have had no training, want to hit the ball high and far and they naturally loop and get long, as your instructor noted. But, I have seen MANY kids who have had training that told them to swing down to avoid looping, and they do NOT naturally get the bat back up. They keep the hands going down too long, and/or they keep the bathead up too long, or they throw the bathead down.


He wants his hitters short to the ball staying inside the pitch and the up part of the swing goes into automatic pilot a non-teach.

That has NOT been my experience. If you tell them to swing down, they will swing down. There is no automatic pilot, non-teach that gets the bat going back up. Short to the ball is good, but HOW do you do it, or how do you teach it?

BTW, in my other post, I mentioned that I took a lot of training from Epstein, but after using his method for a year, I abandoned some of his techniques and disagree with some of his beliefs. Mainly, his belief that you lean back and turn on the back foot. That is just simply not what anybody does. And, he overemphasizes lifting the front elbow. It DOES come up, and should, but it works up as your instructor says, as part of getting the bat going up, AFTER you start down.

[hiddengem]

I am just a father of a good soon to be highschool player. my son has been taking lessons with a mlb hitting coach (big leagues) for the last four years I will not state his name on the forum for he is a friend. he does not teach what you say, and your telling me down to the ball is a thing of the past?? down to the ball does not mean the bat head will be above your hands at the point of contact and the ball will go into the ground. I just wanted to help a few players on this forum with what I have been tought and what I have heard over the last few years. the hands need to work down before they go up stay inside the ball and finish high. who are you? what is your backround?


I've played at every level in this game and its been my experience with "hands to the ball" hitters or teachers that teach this, that they end up with a "V" type action with their hands, rather than a nice smooth arc. You get a "knifing" type action at the ball and end up cutting under the ball and popping the ball up more than you should. The hands do start down but immediately should get into an arc so that when contact is made they are on the up swing of that arc.

On my team, we call it catching the ball on the "upshoot". Just a little slang we throw around.

[LClifton]

I've played at every level in this game and its been my experience with "hands to the ball" hitters or teachers that teach this, that they end up with a "V" type action with their hands, rather than a nice smooth arc. You get a "knifing" type action at the ball and end up cutting under the ball and popping the ball up more than you should. The hands do start down but immediately should get into an arc so that when contact is made they are on the up swing of that arc.

On my team, we call it catching the ball on the "upshoot". Just a little slang we throw around.

This post gives a very good visual, at least to me. Thanks.