Moral question.

[scorekeeper]

Had something happen yesterday that I honestly thought I’d never see in a game.

HS age tournament, with 2 umps, and both coaches having been pretty successful HC’s for some time.

1st game of the tournament at this field(ours), and we were the visitors for this game. Top of the 1st inning. 1 run in, 1 out, runners on 1st and 2nd and a 2-2 count on the batter.

Pitch comes in low. Batter swings and misses, ball hits the dirt in front of the C and goes to the backstop. R1 & R2 move up, and Batter takes off for 1st.

I mark a K for the batter, and the 2 runners advancing on a WP, then I look up. The bases are loaded!

I can’t believe it and just sit there waiting to see what happens next. The next batter gets in, and a rakes 1-2 bases clearing 3 RBI double. I erase the K for the previous batter, and move it to the side of the box. Then I mark him as reaching 1st on a WP, and scoring on the hit.

What I couldn’t believe is, no one caught it on either bench, or at least no one “appeared” to catch it.

I have to admit, I didn’t know what to do!

In OBR, at least there’s a bit of a help, although in this particular case it wouldn’t have given an absolute answer.

OBR - 10.01(b) (1) In all cases, the official scorer shall not make a scoring decision that is in conflict with Rule 10 or any other Official Baseball Rule. The official scorer shall conform strictly to the rules of scoring set forth in this Rule 10. The official scorer shall not make any decision that conflicts with an umpire’s decision. The official scorer shall have authority to rule on any point not specifically covered in these rules. The League President shall order changed any decision of an official scorer that contradicts the rules of scoring set forth in this Rule 10 and shall take whatever remedial actions as may be necessary to correct any statistics that need correction as a result of such mistaken scoring decision.

Its pretty obvious that there was a call in conflict with at least one rule of baseball,

OBR - 6.05
A batter is out when --
(c) A third strike is not caught by the catcher when first base is occupied before two are out;

But, I really tend to lean toward it not being my job to point out to an umpire that he made a mistake. Unfortunately, there’s no such admonition or guidelines in the NFHS rules. :-(

For a few minutes I considered following 9-1-1 to the letter though.

Rule 9, Section 1 How a team scores
Art 1 … A runner scores one run each time he legally advances to and touches first, second, third and then home plate before there are three outs to end the inning.

Since he didn’t legally reach first safely, it was impossible for him to score. LOL!

But, what I did was take the easy way out. I didn’t say anything to anyone, except the ex-minor league player sitting beside me, who’s son was the one who got the 3 run double, and all I told him was, there was only one out and the runner shouldn’t have been allowed to stay on 1st. Of course he told me not to say anything.

In the end, that run wouldn’t have made any difference to the outcome of the game, because the final score was 12-6 us. But being as the score was 8-6 after 2, it is conceivable that some strategies may have changed had that run not scored, especially since at least one less run would have scored had that out been recorded.

So, it appears as though I too have fallen into the trap of, if ain’t cheatin’ ya ain’t tryin. LOL!

Anyone care to comment?

[BoofBonser26]

I think, as official scorer, you followed the rules to the letter. The umpires did not catch the play; neither coach protestsed; the next batter hit. 10.01(b) (1) seems to trump any other rule.

[Jake Patterson]

Call time and speak with the head ump. This is not a decision conflict, it's a ruling.

[TG Coach]

Call time and speak with the head ump. This is not a decision conflict, it's a ruling.

Leave the game to the players and coaches. Shame on them if they don't know the game situation.

[Jake Patterson]

Leave the game to the players and coaches. Shame on them if they don't know the game situation.

An official scorer is not part of the game??

[TG Coach]

An official scorer is not part of the game??

Do umpires tell teams in the field if the runner left early? Why should a scorekeeper impact the game? Besides, the rule is written for serious baseball with "official" official scorers. If an oficial scorer is impartial and placed in the press box, sure he's a part of the game. If he's the official scorer just because he's the home team boxscore, no. A lot of rec to high school games are scored by clowns who barely know what they're doing.

[digglahhh]

Do umpires tell teams in the field if the runner left early? Why should a scorekeeper impact the game? Besides, the rule is written for serious baseball with "official" official scorers. If an oficial scorer is impartial and placed in the press box, sure he's a part of the game. If he's the official scorer just because he's the home team boxscore, no. A lot of rec to high school games are scored by clowns who barely know what they're doing.

Professional games too!

Trust me, I used to have to correct their mistakes.

MLB is usually pretty good. But, MILB can be a horror show...

[scorekeeper]

Call time and speak with the head ump. This is not a decision conflict, it's a ruling.

To tell the truth, as it was happening in real time, I never tried to make the distinction between a “ruling” and a “decision”. Of course I didn’t have the luxury of a an OBR rule book at hand because the game was being played under NFHS rules.

However, I did remember the gist of the OBR rule if not the precise wording, and did look for its equivalent in the NFHS book. There was none I could find.

An official scorer is not part of the game??

I’ve pretty much learned to live with the attitude of those who think they’re the only one’s necessary for the game to be played, although I think its an ignorant position to take.

As much as people like to think the OSK is little more than some stumblebum of a mindless oaf, the fact is, they are officials, just like an umpire. The only real difference is, they have a different job to do.

Having said all that though, I can certainly understand why so many believe SK’s are such dullards. Just as players, coaches, umpires, and fans at lower levels are, shall we say, less than stellar performers because of simple ignorance, most SK’s at that level too, have a lot to learn. However, be that as it may, in general, I do keep my nose out of the game, other than to try to record what goes on as well as I can.

Something that does really irritate me though, is coaches who want the team or official SK to on their own tell them things like a screw-up in the batting order, pitch counts, who’s coming up, who the other team has left on their bench, etc..

Screw that! If I’m the SK, official or not, if a coach wants me to answer a question about something on the scoresheet, if he doesn’t come right out and ask, I very likely ain’t tellin’ him squat! And even then, whatever information I have on the scoresheet is available to the ump, and to any of the coaches too. IOW, I have nothing to hide.

But prolly by far, the thing that hinders SK’s from doing a much better job than they generally do is, the magnificent coaches and umps seem to want to share information with the SK, as though its Top Secret Extra Sensitive Information, and the SK has no need to know!

You can answer this one having been a coach. How many times did you make sure the SK got full lineup cards with numbers, 1st and last names, and positions, for every player prior to a game being started? And, how many times did you make sure the SK got every single change, no matter how minor? Percentages will do. ;)

I was asked to score a game the other night for our “B” squad. I knew some of the players, but most were completely unknown to me. The coach hands me the lineup card before the game. It had absolutely nothing for the opposing team, and our lineup was :

Will,JD,Ran,Adam,Dave,Kyle,Jack,Jor,Mike,Kev

Unfortunately, the writing was worse than any Dr’s, plus we have 2 Ran’s, 2 Kyle’s, 2 Jor’s, no Jack, and 2 Kev’s. Also, there were no uni numbers or position numbers.

During the game, the coaches made free substitutions, even though it was a “league” game, with at least two times the same batter batted twice in the same inning, and several times the same runner ran twice the same inning, one time scoring 2 runs without an AB, for 2 different BPOS’s! Plus, at least 4 players changed position every inning. The only change give to the ump was the change of pitchers, and then they gave him the wrong number and I had to correct it.

I did get a laugh when I suggested that like basketball, it would be a lot easier on me if the players had to “check in”.
:D

[scorekeeper]

Professional games too!

Trust me, I used to have to correct their mistakes.

MLB is usually pretty good. But, MILB can be a horror show...

Like you, I’d never deny that there were a lot of SK’s who stunk, and for them to be that bad in any level where they get paid is terrible. But when people talk about college and below, it almost seems as though everyone tries to make having crappy SK’s a self-fulfilling. thing.

As I said in my reply to Jake’s post, if everyone would just do a little bit to help the other guy out, it would certainly make the whole thing easier.

Since you weighed in and are the most expert person we have access to on the subject, given my scenario, in the unlikely event of the same thing happening at a MiLB game you were scoring, what would you do?

I realize its not the end of the world, and I’ll likely never see it happen again in my lifetime, but it really bothered me, and as you can tell, still does.

[TG Coach]

How many times did you make sure the SK got full lineup cards with numbers, 1st and last names, and positions, for every player prior to a game being started? And, how many times did you make sure the SK got every single change, no matter how minor? Percentages will do.

100%

In addition to providing a lineup with names, numbers and positions, our lineup cards have the entire roster with numbers at the bottom. When we make changes we provide names and numbers.

[scorekeeper]

100%

In addition to providing a lineup with names, numbers and positions, our lineup cards have the entire roster with numbers at the bottom. When we make changes we provide names and numbers.

That shows how much of a vacuum you live in. I’ve scored perhaps 300 HS games, at least half of those as the OSK, and if 25% of the coaches did that, I’d be jumping with joy! I've also scored prolly at least another 300 tournament games at various levels, and 10% in those venues would be phenomenal!

If you’ve really done that, good on ya!

Did you choose not to answer the 2nd part of my question, or are you gonna say you’ve never failed to give an SK every change? And, how many times did you make sure the SK got every single change, no matter how minor?

[kylebee]

100%

In addition to providing a lineup with names, numbers and positions, our lineup cards have the entire roster with numbers at the bottom. When we make changes we provide names and numbers.

Yeah, when I coach I give the official scorer all of this data as well. I didn't know that this was so uncommon.

[TG Coach]

Did you choose not to answer the 2nd part of my question, or are you gonna say you’ve never failed to give an SK every change?

Q2) And, how many times did you make sure the SK got every single change, no matter how minor?

We provide all the information unless told there's no interest in "position only" changes. This surprises me since position changes often involve pitchers. We'll move a pitcher from EH to P with the removed pitcher becoming the EH. With our team they can ID these pitching changes from the roster at the bottom of the lineup card.

[scorekeeper]

We provide all the information unless told there's no interest in "position only" changes. This surprises me since position changes often involve pitchers. We'll move a pitcher from EH to P with the removed pitcher becoming the EH. With our team they can ID these pitching changes from the roster at the bottom of the lineup card.

I’ll try not to go nuts on this particular thing because it is something that IMHO causes a lot problems.

Take a look in any rule book, other than the LLI book, and you can look in “What’s the Score” for them. Every single rule set I’ve ever seen, requires the scorer to keep track of certain things. In general, they are batting stats, pitching stats, and fielding stats.

There are prescribed way to deal with substitutions, and IMHO, any change from the initial lineup card is a substitution. People may not agree with that, but I don’t know how an OSK can be expected to provide the stats the rules require unless they are notified when where is any kind of substitution.

Can the umpire say he doesn’t care about changes to fielders? Of course he “CAN”, but its also illegal because it means he isn’t “conducting” the game IAW the rules. This is the same kind of thing that happens with fields, mounds especially.

Many umps tell the people prepping the field not to put down the inside batter’s box lines. Can he do that? Of course. But is that following the rules? Not in this lifetime. The problem becomes a standard one. Its more difficult to do things by the rules, so why bother? IOW, its inconvenient, and inconvenience has been translated into nonchalance and finally into unnecessary.

Personally, I’d much rather every rule set other than OBR have everything about scorers taken out of it! Since the only thing that seems to count is how many runs have been score, why bother to do anything else? However, if the stuff about scoring and the records is in the book, then someone has to make sure the people keeping score get the information they need to do what the rules require.

[Whitesoxnut]

Leave the game to the players and coaches. Shame on them if they don't know the game situation.

I agree. You did the right thing. Its almost impossable to believe in a HS game the umps and coaches wouldnt get this right, but, anything is possible I guess.

[Jake Patterson]

That shows how much of a vacuum you live in. I’ve scored perhaps 300 HS games, at least half of those as the OSK, and if 25% of the coaches did that, I’d be jumping with joy! I've also scored prolly at least another 300 tournament games at various levels, and 10% in those venues would be phenomenal!


Not certain what kind of league you scored for, but we didn't start a game before a proper line up card was supplied.

[Drill]

Leave the game to the players and coaches. Shame on them if they don't know the game situation.


you point it out to the coach of the team you are scoring for. But if you are the scorer official of the tournament was told to keep my mouth shut when it came to rules infraction because it it up to the either teams scorers/coach to catch mistakes. Than I read in the rule book it is up to me to notify tournament leader if it was a situation that was going to cause a prolong debate (?) So that was the point I backed out of doing any official score keeping other than at a team level.

But again I have just been official scorer for district tournaments in little league. When it goes to next level I don't have a clue.


drill


good question,

drill

[scorekeeper]

Not certain what kind of league you scored for, but we didn't start a game before a proper line up card was supplied.

Depends on what your standard of “proper” is. :laugh

After every game, I attach whatever I got for lineups from the coaches to the scoresheet and file them. If I hadn’t just tossed out everything but the scoresheets, I swear I’d scan in every single thing I got for each of 31 regular season games just to show you how bad things can be.

The next time I get a lineup card, I’ll send it along.