Searching for the "Universal Swing Sequence"

[joof]

Tom G.

I thought the clip below with numbered frames might assist in describing your "Universal Swing Sequence".

http://members.aceweb.com/joutlaw/PFRAMED.gif

http://members.aceweb.com/joutlaw/PF10.gif




Others thoughts are also welcomed !!

joof

[baseball2234]

its so annoying for me because i have a hard time looking at swings and trying to do what the pro's do. Like i see exactly what pujols and all the power hitters do..transfer weight, use their hips, circular bath path, tilt...but its so hard to do. Im really considering getting one of those hitting videos to help like epstien or something...but that clip still is NICE

[Mark H]

I suggest spending some time reading on the free public side on englishbeyhitting before you spend any money. You will have to register but it is free. And yes, learning to "see" more when you look at a clip and relate that to what you look like in your clips is a learned skill.

[Go Cardinals]

Look how much albert moves his head forward. You see him moving it alot! My hs coaches said that it was bad..... even though I hit better when it moved a little......

[wogdoggy]

Look how much albert moves his head forward. You see him moving it alot! My hs coaches said that it was bad..... even thought I hit better when it moved a little......

how much does his head move after the front foot hits? thats what matters..

[Mark H]

Head and left hip...I agree with Woggy though I would assume he means front heel.

[TG Coach]

I find analyzing and discussing videos to be interesting. But for the average parent and youth player they can drive themselves crazy.

For all I believe I know about hitting, 90% of my kid's instruction after basic stance, stride and ready position has been "See the ball, hit it." They've done a lot of tee work. They've done a lot of soft toss. They've taken a lot of BP. They've made their own adjustments. They've developed their own style. Their stances don't look anything like I first showed them when they were little or how I would have them stand now if it were my choice. About the only thing I have to tell the youngest (14U) one now is if his hands are coming forward too soon when he gets overaggressive. You can have all the training videos and hitting clips as you want, but it really comes down to innate talent and hard work.

[Mark H]

Hard smart work in an attempt to reach your innate talent/genetic potential limit. I see a lot of ill advised hard work going on too.

[tom.guerry]

joof -

the superslomo is overkill and loses the sense of flow.

it can be good for looking for microsequence sort of stuff.

How about a 30 fps clip of Pujols or whoever starting a little earlier/more upstream.

Then I can go through the usual sequence here. the other thread might be good for continuing requirements based on perfect swing being about adjustment which involves otpimizing timing and adjusting plane,etc.

It's always:

inward turn
hip c-ock
hand c-cok
windrubber band
drop and tilt
swing.

The mechanics of the
"swing" portion are similar to double pendulum mechanics as discussed here:

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=63805

Lau,peavy,epstein,yeager,mankin, Hodge, Slaught and many others will fit this sequence of motions/positions.
Dixon less so.
Nyma-n not much at all

[DunninLA]

joof -

the superslomo is overkill and loses the sense of flow.

it can be good for looking for microsequence sort of stuff.

How about a 30 fps clip of Pujols or whoever starting a little earlier/more upstream.

Then I can go through the usual sequence here. the other thread might be good for continuing requirements based on perfect swing being about adjustment which involves otpimizing timing and adjusting plane,etc.

It's always:

inward turn
hip c-ock
hand c-cok
windrubber band
drop and tilt
swing.

The mechanics of the
"swing" portion are similar to double pendulum mechanics as discussed here:

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=63805

Lau,peavy,epstein,yeager,mankin, Hodge, Slaught and many others will fit this sequence of motions/positions.
Dixon less so.
Nyma-n not much at allShoot, that is the sequence I teach, and I thought it *was* from Nyman/Englishbey. Perhaps I have unintentionally synthesized concepts that make sense to me and that I see in the MLB slomo vids.

I guess the devil is in the details of the tilt/turn-swing

[XV84]

its so annoying for me because i have a hard time looking at swings and trying to do what the pro's do. Like i see exactly what pujols and all the power hitters do..transfer weight, use their hips, circular bath path, tilt...but its so hard to do. Im really considering getting one of those hitting videos to help like epstien or something...but that clip still is NICE

I think the problem is that we see what the sequence the bones are going through, but we don't know what muscles they are using and when.

[Bumpy_CZE]

What technique is this batter using? The one from Epstein?

[Mark H]

I think the problem is that we see what the sequence the bones are going through, but we don't know what muscles they are using and when.

Exactly. That is one of the inherent problems with video analysis and comparison. Pre conceived viewpoints and prior training are two more. These limitations should be kept in mind when analyzing video.



I know there is a guy somewhere in the NE right now irritated I didn't give him attribution. ;)

[Mark H]

What technique is this batter using? The one from Epstein?


Any program violently executed will help most young hitters. Scott can speak to this as well but I see parts of Epstein's program that are not "teaching what we see" at least from my viewpoint and my experience is kids who work his drills hard end up having to change things later to keep progressing. I don't suggest that. I suggest Steve Englishbey's approach. You can read much about it for free on the public side at englishbeyhitting with the dot com after it. You do have to register.

[FiveFrameSwing]

joof -

Lau,peavy,epstein,yeager,mankin, Hodge, Slaught and many others will fit this sequence of motions/positions.
Dixon less so.
Nyma-n not much at all

What are your thoughts on Englishby?

[tom.guerry]

Englishbey I would put above Nyman and below Dixon I would consider all three of these teaching/"believing" a non mlb pattern while all being aware they are not producing an mlb pattern if their guidelines are followed.

Dixon was a breakthrough guy who had the visual imagination (professional large animal photographer) to recognize the inherent patterns and how they were similar and developed in the same sequence for both throwing and hitting.

In hitting he tried to flesh out some additional details to supplement the Lau Sr "absolutes" approach. His focus on "posture" which was NOT bend at waist or how to adjust for location, but rather how to develop "activated torso muscle tone" that is an important aspect of "cocking the hips" and "horizontal loading" were good contributions.

His sequence details are flawed enough to make a good swing impossible if followed.

I followed Nyman until he had his epiphany that the "absolutes" approach was not working for him (because he couldn't understand the absolutes/denied existence of several key universals/backed himself in a corner with claims about how adjustment was made with posture and xfactor and torque did not exist,etc)) and he abandoned it for the inductive/functional approach (which is really hope to get lucky with trial and error since there are patterns the body will be attracted into or else there would not be the patterns Dixon highlighted).

Englishbey followed Nyman to the letter up until this point, but since then I do not know how things have been revised.

I do know that whatever changes have been made have not been admitted as significant revisions (which they would have to be IF progress was being made toward teaching the mlb patern) because the original assumptions were fatally flawed (something along the lines of a Tom House mea culpa would probably be in everyone's interest).

[deaconspoint]

Englishbey I would put above Nyman and below Dixon I would consider all three of these teaching/"believing" a non mlb pattern while all being aware they are not producing an mlb pattern if their guidelines are followed.

Dixon was a breakthrough guy who had the visual imagination (professional large animal photographer) to recognize the inherent patterns and how they were similar and developed in the same sequence for both throwing and hitting.

In hitting he tried to flesh out some additional details to supplement the Lau Sr "absolutes" approach. His focus on "posture" which was NOT bend at waist or how to adjust for location, but rather how to develop "activated torso muscle tone" that is an important aspect of "cocking the hips" and "horizontal loading" were good contributions.

His sequence details are flawed enough to make a good swing impossible if followed.

I followed Nyman until he had his epiphany that the "absolutes" approach was not working for him (because he couldn't understand the absolutes/denied existence of several key universals/backed himself in a corner with claims about how adjustment was made with posture and xfactor and torque did not exist,etc)) and he abandoned it for the inductive/functional approach (which is really hope to get lucky with trial and error since there are patterns the body will be attracted into or else there would not be the patterns Dixon highlighted).

Englishbey followed Nyman to the letter up until this point, but since then I do not know how things have been revised.

I do know that whatever changes have been made have not been admitted as significant revisions (which they would have to be IF progress was being made toward teaching the mlb patern) because the original assumptions were fatally flawed (something along the lines of a Tom House mea culpa would probably be in everyone's interest).

FiveFrame,

Keep in mind at all times that this is an anonimous discussion board and some here have little or no clue what they're talking about. That would include myself when it comes to analyzing someone elses teahcing methods or beliefs. That's why I don't do it. If I do it should be ignored and taken for what it is. Anonimous ramblings with little or no consructive value.

Joof, the clips are great.

[joof]

Tom,

Here is a quickened version of the initial clip I posted. I believe it shows the flow of the overall swing process.

http://members.aceweb.com/joutlaw/PF10.gif

Would like to see components of your "USS" matched to the numbered frames so we can relate to movement pattern specifics.




joof

[Jake Patterson]

In fact many on here have no clue what they are talking about. That would include myself when it comes to analyzing someone elses teahcing methods or beliefs. That's why I don't do it. If I do it should be ignored.


Disagree.... All the coaches who participate here have a clue, how far their knowledge (clue) goes and whether or not their "clues" are reasonable is another story.

[tom.guerry]

joof -

try posting a 30 fps clip of same view of Pujols and I will proceed.

I agree with JAke that many know it when they see it and can do it which helps a lot when teaching but doesn't necessari;y make communicating about teaching any easier becasue you tend to think you are doing something different given the nature of "feel" being different from appearance or function.

As an example, tweenarock discovered the "disconnected" feel in his shoulders for golf (2 plane golf) somewhere along the line.

This is very similar to the "bypassed" shoulder feel of the MLB swing as opoosed to the shoulders actively turning arms/bat in the PCR swing.

very subtle, but a HUGE difference.

[Kevin G]

Any program violently executed will help most young hitters.

This is soooo right.

Almost instant short term results can be realized where the focus is narrow.
A plug in...so to speak where all attention is on a portion of the total system to get at the problem area. The SYSTEM,however, can be degraded during this work.

My son is a case in point.

Problem to the naked eye: contact hitter... but no power. Power maybe not even correct...can't drive the ball at all.

Solution from ex MLB hitting instructor: Be QUICK QUICK QUICK...Pull the knob right off the bat.... right from the start! Faster..faster.....

Result to naked eye: Driving the ball much better....IF it was inside and down. Best hits pulled way foul...Ex MLB father inlaw bonds with instructor and very pleased with excellent instruction. Mysteriously he begins striking out...



Real Problem based on video: Quitting at contact to facilitate golf style foarearm rollover. All torso rotation stops...bat lines up (after this rollover) parrallel with batters box line (knob to catcher/end to pitcher) completely to the plate side of his body. Bathead make a loop out of the delivery plane. Every hit is glancing blow. He doesn't understand the "hook" or around the corner aspect of the baseball swing.

Real Result: Swinging hard and fast from the start... no time to "aim" the momentum path. "Where are we pulling the knob to?" was my question. No proper load. No adjustability..hand path down..down..contact.. then more down... Just terrible. Started missing balls by a mile... but a couple of foul balls were smashed.. still no "hook" in swing. Improper release.

I had to get my son away from there.
Father inlaw thinks we gave up too soon... we were making some real progress.
He would excuse much of what he said with "of course he didn't MEAN THAT".

Moral of story.
My son hit 2 balls in a six week span harder than anything before... both foul.
But was this something which can progress naturally to a long term quality swing.. or will components need to be undone for long term quality progress?

[tom.guerry]

sounds like your son lacks a good torso coil preventing "early batspeed".

Attempts to quicken this by shortening are the wrong way to go.

Instead need more/earlier preparation to enable later adjustment with quicker acceleration which means better coil in torso and hands staying back to set plane/stretch and fire.

Video would be good.

Location contact and ball flight will tell just like in golf.

[DunninLA]

joof -

I noticed something in the sped up version that I didn't see before....

at toe touch, concurrent with the inward rotation of his lead knee, he further stretches/hip cocks. For some reason I thought he finished his hip cok prior to his toe touch.

funny what you notice at higher speed.

[Kevin G]

sounds like your son lacks a good torso coil preventing "early batspeed".

Attempts to quicken this by shortening are the wrong way to go.

Instead need more/earlier preparation to enable later adjustment with quicker acceleration which means better coil in torso and hands staying back to set plane/stretch and fire.

Video would be good.

Location contact and ball flight will tell just like in golf.

You really need to learn the difference between the declarative and the questioning.

You've revealed to me over time that sadly you are at your best when simply doing your cut and paste thing from your vast archive of published works by others.

You are not even close in the arena of real performance....with all due respect.

[tom.guerry]

how about some video or more specifics tweena and I will try to provide content.

[joof]

Tom,

This is the best I can do on fps. Hope this works.


http://members.aceweb.com/joutlaw/PF33.gif



joof

[tom.guerry]

tweena-
I am not claiming any original thought here.

That is just the point.

It's already been done and it fits becasue it's the same.

The ones who know MLB are describing the same basic pattern.

Joof if this is just baiting, then I will pass.

If you want a summary, get up a 30 fps clip numbered.

The video in the last post of yours isn't working

[joof]

Tom

The clip is working now. I believe if you describe your USS with reference to the numbered frames then it would help define your model of the swing.

joof

[korp]

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/RethinkingHitting/Essays/RotationalHitting.html
That website explains everything that a pro swing consists of as well as pictures and slideshows of how the swings look before during and after.

[Armstrong]

After all the loading, the first thing I see is the front knee opening to lead the swing.

[Mark H]

Correlation is not causality. IOW, it's about the pelvis. As long as the knee doesn't do something to screw up momentum development and transfer into rotation it's not important. Doesn't impact rotation any more than squishing the bug with a watusi move by the back knee impacts rotation. From a developmental standpoint, you tell kids to initiate rotation by fanning open the front knee it's usually going to get ugly.

[joof]

This view of A. Pujols helps show pelvic action and related(reactive) sequencing.

http://members.aceweb.com/joutlaw/P10Frt.gif


joof

[Armstrong]

I see the same thing. Several frames of the lead knee and hip opening prior to launch.

Isn't that what Epstein talks about? The winding of the rubber band? The lower half opening as the upper half stays back/closes?

[korp]

I see the same thing. Several frames of the lead knee and hip opening prior to launch.

Isn't that what Epstein talks about? The winding of the rubber band? The lower half opening as the upper half stays back/closes?

Yes this is what he teaches. My link above in my last post talks more about "rotational hitting" which is the style its called. If you stand in a batters stance and you open up that front hip/knee (don't open upper body yet) you will feel that torque built up in the midsection and it wants to pull your hands and upper body with it. This allows you to get maximum torque and power because otherwise you hips haven't rotated as far as they can when you swing which means the swing is using both upper and some lowerbody ... we all know your lower body is a lot stronger than your upperbody. I don't know about anybody else but with this type of swing I feel to hit the ball far it doesn't require as much effort as when using the "old style" of hitting. I wish people were stressing this type of swing when I was starting out because honestly the long ball is here to stay now that people hit the weight room so hard. "The swing starts with the lower body"

Epstein Hitting (http://www.baseball-hitting.com/index.html)

That is a link to Epstein's hitting videos if people are interested. As quoted by Ted Williams "Hips lead the hands".

[tom.guerry]

joof -

now that's a nice 30 fps clip from pitcher !

frame #34 contact, pretty noncontroversial, but after that, put on your seatbelts, interpretation controversy will mean a bumpy ride.

frame #32, about "lag" position. bat roughly pointing front/back, pitcher to catcher.

so, about 2 frames from lag to contact which consists primarily of double pendulum/rope on string type extension unhinging wrists.

lead arm stays stable/internally rotated in front shoulder socket.

front shoulder stays stably connected to torso.

not much front scap pinch/hook, but scaps stay loaded until contact (or there would be deceleration)

once wrists have unhinged some, bat lines up with forearm, lead wrist in neutral position so for last frame, forearm can extend at elbow and forearm can twist/supinate without deceleration in reaction to bathead accelerating to max speed at contact in well matched plane.

back foot dragged forward, then starts to turn back clockwise at end in reaction to bathead release (and scaps unloading).

Now, let's back up some more, when has cusp reversed/firing bathead ?

about frame 30, bat in plane, back forearm not lowering much yet, back toe just starting to drag. pujols could check his swing up to about this point, less than 4 full frames to contact (contact already happened by frame #34).

now let's briefly hit an earlier highlight:

bat fully tipped/cocked/stride foot showing sole/end of carry is frame #20.

immediately after this the handle torquing starts untipping/uncocking the bat.

the front knee starts flaring at the same time, taking the slack out as the body starts to coil/rotate into toe touch.

shoulders do not TILT until they are seen to have started tilt by about frame #24, bat blurs

note at the same time as they tilt, the weight flows to the front heel and hips fire, AKA drop and tilt.

torso then continues to coil/wind up into frame #29 as hips turn open faster and in somewhat different plane.