Question about hitting

[STM4UA]

I've been reading several boards which discuss hitting (mostly this one) and I see references to "maintaining the box" and I've seen Epstein refer to working the front elbow up. Of course, I've also seen the discussions about bat drag and seen the picture and video examples of this swing flaw.

I've been wondering if maintaining the distance between the two elbows during the swing is another way of thinking about these things. If you thought about maintaining the distance between the elbows would this be similar to "maintaining the box" and working the front elbow up? It seems that bat drag is created when the distance between the elbows is not maintained (the back elbow moves in closer to the lead elbow). Does this make any sense or am I off on the wrong track?

[tom.guerry]

ST-

I think Epstein has the best overall description of the widely available commercial systems.

shoulder tilt and back arm slot and how lead arm works are important overall descriptions.

I think mechanically thinking of the need for an early running start of the upper body torquing the handle as in the "tip and rip" has a lot to add because it puts upper body in charge and gets the bat movng early/the way it should.

hittingillustrated is the best place to go to understand tip and rip.

The back arm slotting action tha leads the untipping/handle torque is most emphasized by Slaught/Candrea as the same motion as preparing to throw side arm- up to point of back elbow getting down opposite side seam of jersey.

Once you get to this point with flex still in back elbow and elbow staying at side, not staying up too high (push swing) or continuing/sliding toward bellybutton (pull/drag), the front side needs to take over the primary role continuing handle torque the way Epstein ( work lead elbow up a little then drop and tilt) or Lau/Peavy describe it (pull with lead arm not shoulder/keep hands at back shoulder).

Mankin describes the continung back arm actin well as the lead arm takes over - flex staying in back arm/back forearm staying vertical. then back forearm lowering later on approach to contact while back elbow stays back as long as possible.

Elbows start widely apart for running start torque, then back elbow slots and lead elbow works up a little to give the box appearance which is maintained until this back forearm lowering (widening arm angle at back elbow) starts on the approach to contact which gets the elbows closer together at contact.

"box" cue means back elbow stays in slot at side as long as possible and lead arm stays connected in shoulder until contact and lead elbow angle(BMHinge angle) stays stable until or almost until contact.

but box formation does not mean bat is pulled by box, rather bat handle has running start torque that blends with uncoiling of torso turning connected shoulders/lead arm.

Mankin's new videoanalysis DVD has good arm action detail. especially back arm.

Slaught back arm throw preparation/action idea is described by Candrea in the hitting link in first post of this thread:

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=63113

[jbooth]

I've been reading several boards which discuss hitting (mostly this one) and I see references to "maintaining the box" and I've seen Epstein refer to working the front elbow up. Of course, I've also seen the discussions about bat drag and seen the picture and video examples of this swing flaw.

I've been wondering if maintaining the distance between the two elbows during the swing is another way of thinking about these things. If you thought about maintaining the distance between the elbows would this be similar to "maintaining the box" and working the front elbow up? It seems that bat drag is created when the distance between the elbows is not maintained (the back elbow moves in closer to the lead elbow). Does this make any sense or am I off on the wrong track?

The front elbow does raise up, but Epstein is incorrect in teaching you to conciously lift it. It should not be forced down, BUT it comes up by itself when you turn the knob from pointing at the ground, to pointing at the incoming ball, or pitcher. Most pros think about keeping the elbow down, but they don't when they swing in a game, because it comes up as the hands rotate the knob.

They think about keeping the back shoulder up, but they actually don't because when they tilt their spine and think "hands down" the back shoulder drops and the front elbow goes up. This happens even though their thought process is completely different. They also think "through the ball" so they have to change the down to up quickly, so they never actually go down through the ball.

[BoardMember]

So to answer your question, I'd like not to think of the elbows maintaining separation. To do this might not allow the rear elbow to slot to the side of the torso as one trys and maintain distance between the two points.

I'd rather think that the rear elbow does slot(drop), but must never "catch" the front elbow, and the front elbow "runs away" from the rear elbow slotting.


I've been reading several boards which discuss hitting (mostly this one) and I see references to "maintaining the box" and I've seen Epstein refer to working the front elbow up. Of course, I've also seen the discussions about bat drag and seen the picture and video examples of this swing flaw.

I've been wondering if maintaining the distance between the two elbows during the swing is another way of thinking about these things. If you thought about maintaining the distance between the elbows would this be similar to "maintaining the box" and working the front elbow up? It seems that bat drag is created when the distance between the elbows is not maintained (the back elbow moves in closer to the lead elbow). Does this make any sense or am I off on the wrong track?

[Ursa Major]

To get back to the original question, I don't see how maintaining a certain distance between the elbows can be a helpful cue in any circumstance, much less in trying to "maintain the box". Indeed, one of the most basic drills to help reinforce the "maintain the box" process is the bottom arm swing, where the rear arm and elbow are essentially eliminated from any role in the swing.

[tom.guerry]

ursa - sorta like maintaining the "boardmember hinge" (angle between lead arm and forearm at lead elbow) on approach to contact.

On jbooth's note, Jim somehow knows that mlb hitters don't think of lifting the front arm, but Epstein does mistakenly.

Funny. I thought Esptein was an OK mlb hitter.

He really emphasizes working lead elbow up and adjusting late with the feel of "weathervaning".I guess he's the only one who ever felt that. Or maybe Williams mentioned it when they talked.But what would they know ?

Esptein seems to think it's an essential part of adjusting and the perfect swing is abut how you adjust. But since no players are now talking about it, let's just forget about it.

Or, alternatively, you could try actually taking some hacks and seeing what it does for you.

what if you get point of the lead elbow up into the swing plane (internally rotate lead arm in shoulder socket like glove arm action in overhand throw) and then keep it there from launch to contact (unlike throw where lead arm then folds down).

what if you retain the BM hinge angle too.

what if you get more upright and lift the lead arm (while keeping the elbow pointed into plane and retaining the BM hinge angle) more to level out your swing on a high heater.

what if you work the elbow up more and lean back and don't get so upright and lift the low ball better.

what if you get the speed you are looking for and adjust up/down on the fly and realize that the timing is about the same for up vs down in this case, just stay up with level swing for high with feel of weathervaning/swinging relatively down on high ball vs dropping the bat and staying leaned back for the low one and swinging more up.

GEE, that's way too complicated,even though Epstein who geberally errs on the side of oversimplification takes so much time to describe this.

Just ignore that part of the advice. It's only a "theory" or a "cue".

Epstein is not likely to work unless you really try what he says.

[Mark H]

Epstein has problems with his rotation model and his pitch location adjustment model imo. Searching on here and eteamz will give you plenty to read on the subject.

[FiveFrameSwing]

ST-

Mankin's new videoanalysis DVD has good arm action detail. especially back arm.


http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=63113


Where could I find Mankin's new DVD?

[UGDodgersSS#13]

Epstein has problems with his rotation model and his pitch location adjustment model imo. Searching on here and eteamz will give you plenty to read on the subject.

Can you please provide more info.
Is eteamz a website?
What problems do u see with Epsteins rotation model (he claims the back foot does not push off and that hip rotation is only initiated when the front heel hits the ground)and pitch location adjustment(weathervaning)?

Thanks-Chris

[Mark H]

First do a search on here for Epstein and see what you come up with. Yes, eteamz is a website. The discussions on the subject are on both the fastpitch board and the baseball board. I promise you can find more than you have time to read on the subject.

[UGDodgersSS#13]

First do a search on here for Epstein and see what you come up with. Yes, eteamz is a website. The discussions on the subject are on both the fastpitch board and the baseball board. I promise you can find more than you have time to read on the subject.

Mark,
I have reviewed Epsteins and Yeagers DVDs. What do you see as wrong with Epsteins rotation?
Yeager has discussed back elbow function but nothing about lead arm, shoulders, etc. yet.
Do you believe that Epstein's "weathervane" concept explains accurately the fine tuning hitters make to get to the ball?

Thanks-Chris

[Mark H]

No, I don't. At all. It's all on here and eteamz under the search function. Get hold of some of it and we'll go from there.