NL RoY

[ChrisLDuncan]

Lots of good candidates this season...who do you guys think it is? I'd say either Ryan Braun or Hunter Pence right now.

[AstrosFan]

I will not accept any answer that does not say "Hunter Pence".

[ChrisLDuncan]

Right now Braun has the higher EqA so I'll have to go with him.

[AznInvasion]

1. Ryan Braun (very impressive)
2. Hunter Pence (very impressive)
3. Tim Lincecum (needs more consistency in starts, could fall down list with another bad start)
4. James Loney (rising up the list, hitting like a machine)
5. Jarrod Saltalamacchia (starting to get PT at 1b and swinging pretty well right now)
6. Yovani Gallardo (he hasn't had a bad start yet)
7. Josh Hamilton ( for nascarfn5 and i forgot about him)
8. Chris B. Young (under the radar)

[Elvis]

Too bad the Dodgers let James Loney rot in AAA this long.

AVG .500 | HR 3 | RBI 12 | OBP .513 | SLG .947

:(

[The Commissioner]

At this point I'd say that Pence is running away with it. There's still more than half a season to go, though, so anything can happen.

[hudsonharden]

I go with Pence on this one.

[redlegsfan21]

Josh Hamilton

[brewcrew82]

Josh Hamilton

It'd be a really good story if he did, though I'd like to think Braun can keep up his performance and run away with the RoY.

[geezer]

As of today, my NL ROY is Hunter Pence.

[Utter Chaos]

Keep an eye on Mike Fontenot of the Cubs

AVG .408 | HR 3 | RBI 13 | RUNS 15 | SB 2

[Evangelion]

As of today, It's Pence.

Though, I won't be surprised if Braun over-took Pence.

[AstrosFan]

Right now Braun has the higher EqA so I'll have to go with him.

Do you ever take playing time into account?

.319 EqA in 228 PA >>> .327 EqA in 132 PA

Oh, and while we're on the subject of BP stats:

BRAR:

Pence: 23
Braun: 15

FRAR:

Pence: 7
Braun: 3

WARP1:

Pence: 3.3
Braun: 1.9


I'm not saying Braun can't pass Pence. But right now, Pence is clearly ahead, and it's because he's played more. Playing time is meaningful.

[ChrisLDuncan]

I guess if I were to "project" who would win the NL ROY not who wins it now, I'd say Braun.

[AutographCollector]

Just my two cents here: a poll would be a nice feature. :D
P.S.
I vote for Pence.

[KillerBee7]

Hunter Pence, but Braun from the Brewers is starting to make a case for ROY.

[natsnsoxfan]

Right now its easily Hunter Pence, as far as I'm concerned.

[nolanryan5714]

Hunter Pence is "scary-good," in the correct context.

It's been a long time since I've seen someone with that much talent just POP UP and play ball.



Will it last? Let's keep watching. That is what we do. :)


I predict Pence will be the next superstar 4-tool player. Give me 3 years before rebuttal, though. LOL....

[redlegsfan21]

Hunter Pence is "scary-good," in the correct context.

It's been a long time since I've seen someone with that much talent just POP UP and play ball.



Will it last? Let's keep watching. That is what we do. :)


I predict Pence will be the next superstar 4-tool player. Give me 3 years before rebuttal, though. LOL....

Apparently you haven't been watching Josh Hamilton. He was out of professional baseball for 4 years and is now an everyday centerfielder for the Reds. He could be an outfielder on any team. He can hit for power or contact, he has an awesome gun, and he is a speedster. And he leads the NL in write-in votes. If it wasn't for that slump and sickness he had in May, he would be right there with Pence.

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/media/player/mp_tpl.jsp?w_id=570015&w=mms%3A//a1503.v108692.c10869.g.vm.akamaistream.net/7/1503/10869/v0001/mlb.download.akamai.com/10869/2007/open/tp/archive05/050507_colcin_hamilton_4hits_reel_tp_350.wmv&pid=mlb_tp&gid=2007/05/05/colmlb-cinmlb-1&mid=200705061948646&cid=mlb&fid=mlb_tp400&v=2&mType=w&urlstr=&mUrl=&type=v_free&_mp=1
http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/media/player/mp_tpl.jsp?w_id=570205&w=mms%3A//a1503.v108692.c10869.g.vm.akamaistream.net/7/1503/10869/v0001/mlb.download.akamai.com/10869/2007/open/tp/archive05/050607_colcin_hamilton_2hr_reel_tp_350.wmv&pid=mlb_tp&gid=2007/05/06/colmlb-cinmlb-1&mid=200705061950334&cid=mlb&fid=mlb_tp400&v=2&mType=w&urlstr=&mUrl=&type=v_free&_mp=1
http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/media/player/mp_tpl.jsp?w_id=577200&w=mms%3A//a1503.v108692.c10869.g.vm.akamaistream.net/7/1503/10869/v0001/mlb.download.akamai.com/10869/2007/open/tp/archive06/061007_clecin_hamilton_throw_tp_350.wmv&pid=mlb_tp&gid=2007/06/10/clemlb-cinmlb-1&mid=200706102018848&cid=mlb&fid=mlb_tp400&v=2&mType=w&urlstr=&mUrl=&type=v_free&_mp=1
http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/media/player/mp_tpl.jsp?w_id=579597&w=mms%3A//a1503.v108692.c10869.g.vm.akamaistream.net/7/1503/10869/v0001/mlb.download.akamai.com/10869/2007/open/tp/archive06/062207_cinsea_hamilton_def_tp_350.wmv&pid=mlb_tp&gid=2007/06/22/cinmlb-seamlb-1&mid=200706232044045&cid=mlb&fid=mlb_tp400&v=2&mType=w&urlstr=&mUrl=&type=v_free&_mp=1

[eric_p]

i hope james loney makes an 11th hour case for himself
i feel like he could be a potential producer for years to come
but hindsight is 20/20; crossing my fingers for him just to not be the next billy ashley
did anyone see his gnarly encounter with the chavez ravine right field wall the other week?
i'd like to have a word with whoever is responsible for those blindingly unneccessary scoreboards... accident waiting to happen

[DodgerBlue8188]

I like to see how many different responses come September. James Loney is on a tear.

[Dalkowski110]

I'm going with Hunter Pence.

[Mattingly]

If someone can offer 10 reasonable names of 2007 rookies, the team they play for and their position (or if thy're LHP/RHP), then we can have a poll. Just agree or disagree with whether the names are worthy and they'll be added.

[nolanryan5714]

This is really a re-post, but here are the 8 names I'm nominating for a poll. If someone can add to it with a couple or so others, that would be great!

1.) Hunter Pence
2.) Ryan Braun
3.) Josh Hamilton
4.) Tim Lincecum
5.) James Loney
6.) Chris B. Young
7.) Jarrod Saltalamacchia (longest name in MLB history, BTW!)
8.) Yovani Gallardo

[tat2ist77]

I love Saltalamacchia and Carlos Ruiz (I'm partial to catchers)

Greg

[natsnsoxfan]

This is really a re-post, but here are the 8 names I'm nominating for a poll. If someone can add to it with a couple or so others, that would be great!

1.) Hunter Pence OF
2.) Ryan Braun 3B
3.) Josh Hamilton OF
4.) Tim Lincecum RHP
5.) James Loney 1B (although I'm not sure hes rookie eligible)
6.) Chris B. Young CF
7.) Jarrod Saltalamacchia C (longest name in MLB history, BTW!)
8.) Yovani Gallardo RHP

That seems like a good list although I would add Felix Pie and Troy Tulowitzki to the list also.

[AznInvasion]

Troy played last year didn't he? Ahem, I came up with the list. Although, my list's order wasn't perfect. Felix Pie and Mike Fontenot could be added. Isn't Carlos Ruiz a rook? Also Yunel Escobar needs to be added.

[natsnsoxfan]

Tulo did play last year but he is still rookie eligible. All I did was add the positions cause Mattingly or someone wanted them in there.

[nolanryan5714]

Ahem, I came up with the list.

Yes, and I didn't mean to trod on your ground, man. No offense....credit goes to you. :)

[ChrisLDuncan]

If were adding Tulowitzki we should add Drew too.

[nolanryan5714]

With the kind permission of ChrisLDuncan, I have started a poll in this thread.

This should be interesting. :)

[ChrisLDuncan]

Homer Bailey should be on this list. Guy has wicked stuff, there's a good chance he'll rip through the NL like a shiv through the skin of a prison snitch in the second half.

[nolanryan5714]

Homer Bailey added at the thread author's request.

To keep this kinda simple, it would be easier if we just went with a "write-in" ballot for a person not mentioned. If we keep editing the poll, it'll be.....weird! LOL...

Thanks, CLD, for allowing us to add a poll.

[natsnsoxfan]

If were adding Tulowitzki we should add Drew too.

Drew isn't a rookie, he played quite a bit last year.

[MyDogSparty]

I'm going with Ryan Braun. I think over the long haul he'll be the best of the bunch.

[natsnsoxfan]

I'm going with Ryan Braun. I think over the long haul he'll be the best of the bunch.

I agree, over the long haul, but this year its Hunter Pence with a doubt.

[Erik Bedard]

Keep an eye on Mike Fontenot of the Cubs

AVG .408 | HR 3 | RBI 13 | RUNS 15 | SB 2

I can't believe the O's traded away this guy for Sammy Sosa. I'm quite possibly the biggest Sosa fan on this board, but Fontenot was supposed to be the future 2B of the future, once they had decided not to pay Brian Roberts what he was worth.

Anyway, I voted for Pence, though Braun could pass him, and Hamilton and Lincecum also have cases.

[Old Sweater]

Troy Tulowitzki, at the time he is leading all rookies in runs, hits, rbi's and walks. Also has a .988 FP with above average range with a rocket for a arm at the SS position. Hunter and Troy each have 8 hr's.

If Hunter and Troy keep going like they are they should finish 1 and 2 in the voting.

[nolanryan5714]

I'm watching Tulowitzki right now. I must admit, he has some impressive numbers. Old Sweater, I agree with you. It'll be close between those 2 guys.

[Old Sweater]

I'm watching Tulowitzki right now. I must admit, he has some impressive numbers. Old Sweater, I agree with you. It'll be close between those 2 guys.

Troy by far is the most impressive rookie we ever had with the glove. It's like having a Omar with some power at the plate.

Just hope Troy gets a bit more recognition by the writers then he does on this board playing for the Rockies.

[MyDogSparty]

I agree, over the long haul, but this year its Hunter Pence with a doubt.


I meant the long haul of the season, not his career. We're now at the midway point of the season and Braun's numbers may have already passed Pence's numbers since this poll started. I think Braun will be more consistent and end with better numbers over the course of this season.

[natsnsoxfan]

I meant the long haul of the season, not his career. We're now at the midway point of the season and Braun's numbers may have already passed Pence's numbers since this poll started. I think Braun will be more consistent and end with better numbers over the course of this season.

I think there numbers will be very similar, perhaps slightly in favor of Braun, but Braun is an awful defender and Pence is an excellent defensive outfielder, in addition to his good offense.

[janduscframe]

Right now, it would have to be Pence. I'm kicking myself for giving his great uncle Bennie's old lawn mower away. Pence has Minnesota roots. His grandparents used to live a mile away from me.
In the end though, I wouldn't be surprised if it's Braun. Man, that kid is impressive.

[HDH]

Not final as of 7/1/07: Both Rookie SS are the best defensive SS in their league.


C PHI-Carlos Ruiz
1B LAD-James Loney
2B CHN-Mark Fontenot
SS COL-Troy Tulowitzki -NL-ROY
3B MIL-Ryan Braun
CF CIN-Josh Hamilton
CF HOU-Hunter Pence
CF ARI-Cris Young

RSP SDP-Justin Germano
LSP PIT-Tom Gorzelanny

RRP ATL-Peter Mylan

[holyroman]

Hunter Pence now has 11 hits in July with 3 Homers in consecutive games.

:gt

[Westlake]

Apparently you haven't been watching Josh Hamilton. He was out of professional baseball for 4 years and is now an everyday centerfielder for the Reds. He could be an outfielder on any team. He can hit for power or contact, he has an awesome gun, and he is a speedster. And he leads the NL in write-in votes. If it wasn't for that slump and sickness he had in May, he would be right there with Pence.


Actually i've been watching, and Pence has been better. You're a complete homer if you think Hamilton has. Seriously.

Hamilton: .271/.362/.528... 151 OPS+... 56 Runs Created
Pence: .346/.374/.598... 125 OPS+.... 38 Runs Created.

[Old Sweater]

From MLB.com

-----------------------------

Take away Tulowitzki's .285 batting average, and he isn't far off. He has nine homers, including six in the past 13 games. He leads rookies in runs (48) and walks (31), and he only trails Pence in hits (86 to 89). Tulowitzki leads all Major League shortstops with 423 total chances, 283 assists and 135 putouts. He's even raised his batting average 24 points over the last 20 games, as he's gone a Pence-like .355 during the stretch.

[nolanryan5714]

If you look at OPS+, then it's gotta be Pence.

Pence is .948 (incredible!).

Tulowitzki is .793 (VERY respectable!).




BTW - curious question....why do you guys who think Pence cannot do it "over the long haul" do it? I mean, simply put, WHY?

[redlegsfan21]

I like it when people agree with me.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070707&content_id=2073066&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

[SamtheBravesFan]

I gave Saltalamacchia a courtesy vote. :)

[Zagi-CRO]

Based on the season's stats I'll go with this:

1. Hunter Pence, OF (the winner)
2. Chris Young,CF
3. Ryan Braun, 3B
4. Troy Tulowitzky, SS
5. Tim Lincecum, RHP
6. Jarod Saltalamacchia, C
7. Jason Hirsh, RHP
8. Kevin Kuzmanoff, 3B

[Old Sweater]

Based on the season's stats I'll go with this:

1. [b]Hunter Pence, OF (the winner)[b]
2. Chris Young,CF
3. Ryan Braun, 3B
4. Troy Tulowitzky, SS
5. Tim Lincecum, RHP
6. Jarod Saltalamacchia, C
7. Jason Hirsh, RHP
8. Kevin Kuzmanoff, 3B

Guess you just go by offensive stats.

Braun 3B/ FP .916 -50 lg with 64 assists

Tulowitzki SS/ FP .989 +17 lg with 300 assists (leads all SS in assists and DP's) Plus he is right up there with Hunter and Braun in HR's and RBI's.

Doesn't no one value the glove anymore?

[Zagi-CRO]

The NL Rookie All Star Team

SP Tim Lincecum
RP Manny Corpas
C Jarod Saltalamacchia
1B James Loney
2B Mark Fontenot
SS Troy Tulowitzki
3B Ryan Braun
CF Josh Hamilton
CF Hunter Pence NL ROY
CF Chris Young

I can't find better rookie players at all !?

[Zagi-CRO]

Guess you just go by offensive stats.

Braun 3B/ FP .916 -50 lg with 64 assists

Tulowitzki SS/ FP .989 +17 lg with 300 assists (leads all SS in assists and DP's) Plus he is right up there with Hunter and Braun in HR's and RBI's.

Doesn't no one value the glove anymore?

I'm still working, comparing etc. ... :)
In Europe sport's theory the ofense is the best defense.

[Westlake]

Guess you just go by offensive stats.

Braun 3B/ FP .916 -50 lg with 64 assists

Tulowitzki SS/ FP .989 +17 lg with 300 assists (leads all SS in assists and DP's) Plus he is right up there with Hunter and Braun in HR's and RBI's.

Doesn't no one value the glove anymore?

Braun - .350/.391/.663 Away - .348/.367/.674
Tulowitski - .286/.358/.432 Away - .263/.347/.388

Unless Tulowitzki plays D like Ozzie and Braun plays like Manny Ramirez, there's really not even close to a case for Tulo over Braun. Tulo is a below average hitter when he's not in Coors, and Braun still rakes on the road.

[Old Sweater]

Unless Tulowitzki plays D like Ozzie and Braun plays like Manny Ramirez, there

So far he is playing D like Ozzie but with a arm. You don't think 300 assists in 88 games isn't Ozzie like and the .916 FP by Braun isn't worse then Manny?

[Westlake]

So far he is playing D like Ozzie but with a arm. You don't think 300 assists in 88 games isn't Ozzie like and the .916 FP by Braun isn't worse then Manny?

No, he's not playing D like Ozzie. Assists do not equal being the best SS in the league, which he is NOT. He's not as good as Adam Everett. Therefore, not as good as Ozzie. Also, fielding percentage means very little when evaluating defense, outfielders in particular. I've seen Braun play and by no means is he even close to as bad as Manny. Skew what you like, but Braun has been flat out better than Tulo.

[Old Sweater]

No, he's not playing D like Ozzie. Assists do not equal being the best SS in the league, which he is NOT. He's not as good as Adam Everett. Therefore, not as good as Ozzie.

Adam Everett .973 FP 4.56 R

Tulo .989 FP 5.18 R

Plus Tulo has a arm Ozzie could only dream about. The kid to his right in the hole has the most incredible throw to 2nd I have seen, full speed on the run, throws the ball with gas and keeps on running towards 3rd at full speed.

BTW, how many games have you seen Tulo play this year to compare him to Ozzie or Braun?

[Westlake]

Adam Everett .973 FP 4.56 R

Tulo .989 FP 5.18 R

Plus Tulo has a arm Ozzie could only dream about. The kid to his right in the hole has the most incredible throw to 2nd I have seen, full speed on the run, throws the ball with gas and keeps on running towards 3rd at full speed.

BTW, how many games have you seen Tulo play this year to compare him to Ozzie or Braun?

I've seen the set they played against the Sox and Yanks, and I think once against the Mets but im not sure.

Right on the Everett thing, when is your ticket back from Homerville?

[Old Sweater]

No ticket back until you get off Red Sox Express and quit doing your digs at the Yankees. So no time soon I suspect.

[Westlake]

No ticket back until you get off Red Sox Express and quit doing your digs at the Yankees. So no time soon I suspect.

Haha. Cant defend yourself so you throw out a factless sentence like that that has nothing to do with the subject at hand?

[Old Sweater]

Haha. Cant defend yourself so you throw out a factless sentence like that that has nothing to do with the subject at hand?

^ No this is worthless. Braun is awful on defense and Tulo's stats is better this year then Everetts so you come up with this crap. Just like a Texan that jumps on the Red Sox Express.

[Westlake]

^ No this is worthless. Braun is awful on defense and Tulo's stats is better this year then Everetts so you come up with this crap. Just like a Texan that jumps on the Red Sox Express.

Says the Yankee fan in Colorado. You really need to act your age. Tulo's stats? If you're going to look at stats, why not look at ones that actually have meaning towards who's better?

[Old Sweater]

Says the Yankee fan in Colorado. You really need to act your age. Tulo's stats? If you're going to look at stats, why not look at ones that actually have meaning towards who's better?

Yes I'm a Yankee fan but there weren't any teams in Colorado in the 50's Einstein. What is your excuse?

Why don't you try looking at Everetts stats next time before you pop off.

[Westlake]

Yes I'm a Yankee fan but there weren't any teams in Colorado in the 50's Einstein. What is your excuse?

Why don't you try looking at Everetts stats next time before you pop off.

I don't need an excuse. Nice choice of team when there wasn't one in Colorado. I'm pretty sure there are other teams closer than the Yankees. You should be the LAST person to call someone a bandwagon jumper. You pick a team on the other side of the country who is in the middle of winning 10 world series in 16 years.

Everett's stats all prove that he's been the best defensive shortstop in baseball for the last 4 years. You obviously know nothing about any real statistics that prove anything other than how many times someone caught the ball compared to how many times he got to it. Such an expert.

[Old Sweater]

I don't need an excuse. Nice choice of team when there wasn't one in Colorado. I'm pretty sure there are other teams closer than the Yankees. You should be the LAST person to call someone a bandwagon jumper. You pick a team on the other side of the country who is in the middle of winning 10 world series in 16 years.

Everett's stats all prove that he's been the best defensive shortstop in baseball for the last 4 years. You obviously know nothing about any real statistics that prove anything other than how many times someone caught the ball compared to how many times he got to it. Such an expert.

Yeah, there were closer ones but my Grandpa was a Yankee fan.

Tulo 50r 44rbi
Braun 36r 32rbi
Hunter 39r 42rbi

Yeah, you are such a expert it makes me sick. The run is the most important stat in baseball, you can't win without them. Throw in the D and and Braun isn't close.

[Westlake]

Yeah, there were closer ones but my Grandpa was a Yankee fan.

Tulo 50r 44rbi
Braun 36r 32rbi
Hunter 39r 42rbi

Yeah, you are such a expert it makes me sick. The run is the most important stat in baseball, you can't win without them. Throw in the D and and Braun isn't close.

Yeah, runs and RBIs are the most important stats in baseball. Has absolutely nothing to do with the players who hit in front or behind you, or where you are in the batting order. Or nothing to do with the run environment of your home park. If you really think Tulo has been better than Braun offensively (when i've already proved he's below average when you take him out of Coors) than you're sadly mistaken.

If you like RBI, you must like batting average with runners in scoring position.

Braun: .375/.429/.750
Tulowitzki: .218/.317/.345

Troy Tulowitzki, what a run producer.

[Old Sweater]

other than how many times someone caught the ball compared to how many times he got to it. Such an expert.

Again you are wrong, Tulo is a rookie and I even threw in the range factor for him and Everett. Go take a look and see if you can find one defensive stat that Everett is superior in this year.

[Westlake]

Again you are wrong, Tulo is a rookie and I even threw in the range factor for him and Everett. Go take a look and see if you can find one defensive stat that Everett is superior in this year.

Range Factor is terrible as well. Considering Everett's last game was a month ago, that's obviously going to be pretty tough to find.

[Old Sweater]

Yeah, runs and RBIs are the most important stats in baseball. Has absolutely nothing to do with the players who hit in front or behind you, or where you are in the batting order. Or nothing to do with the run environment of your home park. If you really think Tulo has been better than Braun offensively (when i've already proved he's below average when you take him out of Coors) than you're sadly mistaken.

If you like RBI, you must like batting average with runners in scoring position.

Braun: .375/.429/.750
Tulowitzki: .218/.317/.345

Troy Tulowitzki, what a run producer.

About find any offensive stat you want at the bottom. Really surprised that Tulo's stats are that bad with RISP.

Then you got Late and Close games.

Tulo .347 .475 .633 12rbi
Ryan .250 .250 .550 2rbi
Hunter .273 .319 .545 5rbi

So far Tulo has been more productive in tight games at the end. If Fuentes does his job, Tulo would have had 3 game winning HR's within 1 week on the road.

[Colorado Express]

It's nice to see some love for Tulowitzki. He's starting to hit well while playing great at SS. There are a lot of great candidates and there is no doubt that this one will come down to who has the better 2nd half.

[Westlake]

About find any offensive stat you want at the bottom. Really surprised that Tulo's stats are that bad with RISP.

Then you got Late and Close games.

Tulo .347 .475 .633 12rbi
Ryan .250 .250 .550 2rbi
Hunter .273 .319 .545 5rbi

So far Tulo has been more productive in tight games at the end. If Fuentes does his job, Tulo would have had 3 game winning HR's within 1 week on the road.

Had to dig down deep for that one. Of course, if he was hitting with RISP earlier in the game, that really wouldnt be as much of an issue. Lets park adjust those numbers as see what happens.

[AznInvasion]

About find any offensive stat you want at the bottom. Really surprised that Tulo's stats are that bad with RISP.

Then you got Late and Close games.

Tulo .347 .475 .633 12rbi
Ryan .250 .250 .550 2rbi
Hunter .273 .319 .545 5rbi

So far Tulo has been more productive in tight games at the end. If Fuentes does his job, Tulo would have had 3 game winning HR's within 1 week on the road.

Tulo has been clutch and Braun hasn't played in the majors for all that long. To compare RBI's between them is useless. This stat only shows that Tulo is a good clutch player but not better in any other way.

[TonyStarks]

Hunter Pence is running away with it right now!

[Old Sweater]

Had to dig down deep for that one. Of course, if he was hitting with RISP earlier in the game, that really wouldnt be as much of an issue. Lets park adjust those numbers as see what happens.

Just one line to the south of where you dug. Go ahead and adjust the numbers, like I said, Tulo had 3 game winning homers in a week on the road if Fuentes done his job.

[ChrisLDuncan]

No, he's not playing D like Ozzie. Assists do not equal being the best SS in the league, which he is NOT. He's not as good as Adam Everett. Therefore, not as good as Ozzie. Also, fielding percentage means very little when evaluating defense, outfielders in particular. I've seen Braun play and by no means is he even close to as bad as Manny. Skew what you like, but Braun has been flat out better than Tulo.

Isn't Braun their thridbasemen?

[ChrisLDuncan]

Tulowitzki is also a good rookie too though...a fantastic defender, most of the stats I've seen him have as awesome...also of watching him I think he's pretty damn good too. However the RoY is Ryan Braun, he's currently on pace for 36 HRs and 100 RBIs, if he keeps it up he gets my vote.

[Old Sweater]

Tulowitzki is also a good rookie too though...a fantastic defender, most of the stats I've seen him have as awesome...also of watching him I think he's pretty damn good too. However the RoY is Ryan Braun, he's currently on pace for 36 HRs and 100 RBIs, if he keeps it up he gets my vote.

Yeah Braun is great. In the matchup tonight Braun was 2 for 4 with 2 hrs for 4 rbi's and 2 r's scored.

Tulo was 2 for 4 with 1 hr for 2 rbi's and 2 r's scored.

What the box score don't show is the 2 outs that Tulo saved the Rockies with that gun for a arm he's got. Deep in the hole he gets the speedy Rickie Weeks on a back hand stab then he gets Hardy on a chopper that went over Atkins at 3rd from the outfield grass.

Tulo may not win the ROY but if he keeps up his current D he is going to be a top contender for the SS GG. He makes the types of plays that will stick in the opposing managers and coaches heads.

[Erik Bedard]

Triple T is a great player, and far better with the glove than Braun. However, Braun is just so much of a better hitter. Josh Hamilton is also having a darn good year, but he's not on a level with Braun. Right now I have it like this:

1. Ryan Braun, 3B, MIL
--------large gap-------
2. Troy Tulowitzki, SS, COL
3. Hunter Pence, LF, HOU
4. Josh Hamilton, CF, CIN
--------large gap-------
5. James Loney, 1B, LAD

[redlegsfan21]

Triple T is a great player, and far better with the glove than Braun. However, Braun is just so much of a better hitter. Josh Hamilton is also having a darn good year, but he's not on a level with Braun. Right now I have it like this:

1. Ryan Braun, 3B, MIL
--------large gap-------
2. Troy Tulowitzki, SS, COL
3. Hunter Pence, LF, HOU
4. Josh Hamilton, CF, CIN
--------large gap-------
5. James Loney, 1B, LAD

It's hard to have a good year when you keep going to the DL. I think there is a curse on Reds centerfielders, Ryan Freel, Josh Hamilton, Ken Griffey.

[ChrisLDuncan]

Triple T is a great player, and far better with the glove than Braun. However, Braun is just so much of a better hitter. Josh Hamilton is also having a darn good year, but he's not on a level with Braun. Right now I have it like this:

1. Ryan Braun, 3B, MIL
--------large gap-------
2. Troy Tulowitzki, SS, COL
3. Hunter Pence, LF, HOU
4. Josh Hamilton, CF, CIN
--------large gap-------
5. James Loney, 1B, LAD

In no way is there a large gap between Ryan Braun and Hunter Pence (center fielder)

[natsnsoxfan]

In no way is there a large gap between Ryan Braun and Hunter Pence (center fielder)

Totally agree. Pence is looking like he could win the NL batting title, possibly even the over batting title, this year.

[Zagi-CRO]

As I said two-three months ago, Brewers could reach the top of the division.
Fielder, Braun, Hardy, Hart, Jenkins, Hall - a perfect lineup!!

The best rookie is Hunter Pence but Braun is also good, very good.

[Westlake]

Isn't Braun their thridbasemen?

Lol, yeah he is. Brain fart there for sure. :nod:

[Erik Bedard]

In no way is there a large gap between Ryan Braun and Hunter Pence (center fielder)

Why not? Here are their stats:

Braun: .349/.401/.680, 179 OPS+, .347 EqA
Pence: .334/.361/.575, 140 OPS+, .308 EqA

Braun absolutely owns Pence in every single one of these categories.

Totally agree. Pence is looking like he could win the NL batting title, possibly even the over batting title, this year.

The only problem with that is that Braun is hitting better than him. If Braun ends up qualifying, he should win.

[EdmondsFan#1]

Why not? Here are their stats:

Braun: .349/.401/.680, 179 OPS+, .347 EqA
Pence: .334/.361/.575, 140 OPS+, .308 EqA

Braun absolutely owns Pence in every single one of these categories.



Pence has had 100+ more AB's...

[Old Sweater]

Braun better improve his defense or hope the writers don't take a peek at his stats.

He just had 2 more erorrs yesterday giving him 11 in 44 games for a .894 FP

[Tanner]

Hunter Pence

[Erik Bedard]

Pence has had 100+ more AB's...

And yet Braun has still managed to homer more times than Pence.

[Tanner]

And yet Braun has still managed to homer more times than Pence.

Power isnt everything.... and CF is typically not a power position

[Francoeurstein]

Well Pence right now, but I'm sure he's going to end up hitting about 16 homers and batting .305. Ryan Braun is going to turn out better.

[Erik Bedard]

Power isnt everything.... and CF is typically not a power position

But power, getting on base, and running is pretty much everything (at least offensively). Braun does all of them better than Pence.

[HHReloaded]

Tulo!

Improving offensively, great defensively all year......

[Old Sweater]

.Year Ag Tm Lg G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG *OPS+ TB SH SF IBB HBP GDP
............Braun 77 311 59 106 17 5 24 62 10 4 24 70 .341 .387 .659 167 205 0 4 1 2 11
Tulo............ 116 453 69 132 20 3 17 66 6 5 44 94 .291 .361 .453 106 205 4 1 3 6 12

============================================

Player Ag Team Inn GS G PO A E DP .956 *2.68
+--------------------+--+---+-----+----+----+-----+-----+---+---+-------+------+
Abraham Nunez 31 PHI 467 0 82 38 141 7 9 .962 3.45
Pedro Feliz 32 SFG 941 0 109 80 243 8 25 .976 3.09
Scott Rolen 32 STL 881 0 105 79 216 6 22 .980 3.01
Ryan Zimmerman 22 WSN 1099 0 124 107 259 19 32 .951 3.00
Jose Bautista 26 PIT 805 0 94 78 188 10 13 .964 2.97
Aramis Ramirez 29 CHC 788 0 90 67 192 6 16 .977 2.96
Morgan Ensberg 31 HOU 492 0 68 36 107 11 12 .929 2.61
David Wright 24 NYM 1081 0 121 76 236 15 15 .954 2.60
Miguel Cabrera 24 FLA 1001 0 118 70 217 18 22 .941 2.58
Chipper Jones 35 ATL 800 0 93 59 162 8 14 .965 2.48
Edwin Encarnacion 24 CIN 859 0 101 87 147 11 15 .955 2.45
Kevin Kouzmanoff 25 SDP 799 0 98 65 142 15 8 .932 2.33
Mark Reynolds 23 ARI 580 0 72 40 107 8 15 .948 2.28
Garrett Atkins 27 COL 1025 0 118 67 185 12 26 .955 2.21
Ryan Braun 23 MIL 674 0 76 45 115 20 6 .889 2.14
Wilson Betemit 25 LAD 353 0 53 20 60 4 6 .952 2.04
+--------------------+--+---+-----+----+----+-----+-----+---+---+-------+------+

================================================== =========================================


Player Ag Team Inn GS G PO A E DP .974 *4.44
+--------------------+--+---+-----+----+----+-----+-----+---+---+-------+------+
Troy Tulowitzki 22 COL 1033 0 116 201 428 9 93 .986 5.48
Rafael Furcal 29 LAD 995 0 113 199 354 17 79 .970 5.00
Adam Everett 30 HOU 525 0 63 94 193 8 36 .973 4.92
Jack Wilson 29 PIT 946 0 107 138 372 9 86 .983 4.85
Omar Vizquel 40 SFG 962 0 111 163 342 7 71 .986 4.72
David Eckstein 32 STL 690 0 82 118 232 14 42 .962 4.56
Felipe Lopez 27 WSN 657 0 77 111 216 12 37 .965 4.48
Stephen Drew 24 ARI 986 0 113 166 321 12 71 .976 4.44
Jimmy Rollins 28 PHI 1093 0 123 170 366 9 78 .983 4.41
Khalil Greene 27 SDP 1036 0 113 156 346 9 71 .982 4.36
Alex Gonzalez 30 CIN 784 0 91 132 240 15 68 .961 4.27
Ryan Theriot 27 CHC 552 0 72 80 177 4 39 .985 4.18
Edgar Renteria 31 ATL 866 0 103 128 272 10 59 .976 4.16
Hanley Ramirez 23 FLA 995 0 115 171 286 19 72 .960 4.13
Jose Reyes 24 NYM 1091 0 122 153 335 8 71 .984 4.03
J.J. Hardy 24 MIL 980 0 112 124 304 12 57 .973 3.93
+--------------------+--+---+-----+----+----+-----+-----+---+---+-------+------+

[Old Sweater]

Man! Defense absolutely gets no recognition anymore. These odds are near a month old but still before Pence's injury and he is still way ahead of Tulo.

Odds To Win NL Rookie of the Year

Ryan Braun +110

Hunter Pence +150

Troy Tulowitzki +450

Josh Hamilton +500

Henry Owens +500

The Field +500

[holyroman]

Pence is back let's see if he can pick up where he left off a month ago

[Baseball Guru]

I love Pence as I have have been a big fan of his since watching him play during spring training but as of right now I'd give the nod to Ryan Braun..

Basically the same # of AB's with better #'s across the board...

[Colorado Express]

Tulowitzki deserves it for his EXCELLENT defense and very solid bat, but Braun's bat is pretty hard to ignore. Tulo gets my vote as of today!

[Erik Bedard]

Braun now gets my vote. Easily.

[brose3312]

Chris Young , he has gone 20/20 has hit 21 doubles, and is above average defensively. He is also hitting leadoff in a pennant race

[redlegsfan21]

Chris Young , he has gone 20/20 has hit 21 doubles, and is above average defensively. He is also hitting leadoff in a pennant race

It's really hard to think that there is a hitter named Chris Young too. At least it's not like the SS Alex Gonzalez during that 2003 NLCS.

P.S. A .237 AVG isn't good enough for me.

[brose3312]

I think the average is what will hurt him the most, guys like Pence and Braun are hitting 100 points higher although neither one of them has spent the entire season in the bigs.
I think Braun will, and probably should win, but despite his low average Young needs to be in the argument. Bubba Crosby hit under .240 when he was ROY.

[skyking162]

This post (http://jinaz-reds.blogspot.com/2007/09/rookie-of-year-tulowitzki.html) makes a reasonably good argument that Tulo is the runaway rookie of the year. Why? His fielding is so much better than anyone else's, especially Ryan Braun's. In fact, Tulo's been more than 50 runs better than Braun in the field this year. Yikes. There are links in the brief article to the methodology behind the fielding ratings.

[Zagi-CRO]

Ryan Braun or Hunter Pence.
I vote for Braun.

[skyking162]

More fielding data:

Baseball Prospectus (http://baseballprospectus.com/chat/chat.php?chatId=357):
JWR (Chicago): Who should win the NL Rookie of the Year this season-- Braun or Tulowitzki? Who looks better over the next five years?

Nate Silver: My first instinct is certainly to say Braun on the RoY question, but what's interesting is that the DTs perceive an absolutely enormous difference in fielding acumen between the two; Tulo is at +21 (!) while Braun is at -17 (!). I think I'd want to see some independent confirmation of those fielding numbers before I could make any judgment.

I'd rather have Braun going forward. What's interesting about both of them is that PECOTA expected that they'd be pretty darn good this year, but also that they won't experience a lot of growth from here outward -- it think they're both early peak guys.

And the Fans Scouting Report (http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/comments/fans_scouting_report_preliminary_results/#comments), comment #4 from Tango:
Tulo’s 81 compares to the average SS of 60, so that +21 points is roughly +15 runs. Braun’s 40 compared to the average 3B of 54, making him about -10 runs. Throw in the roughly 5 run positional adjustment, and you have a 30 run difference between the two (over 162 games).

The 30 runs here are overall, not relative to position. So you can't just tack them on to VORP.

Anyway, the VORP difference is about 15 runs in Braun's favor. Hardball Times's fielding data puts Tulo +55 fielding runs, BPro's +38, and the Fans are about +25. That's huge -- bigger than Braun's lead in hitting.

[AznInvasion]

It's between Tulo and Braun. I'm still voting for Braun though I'd be willing to switch to Tulo. They are both very respectable. Pence just not healthy enough to be considered a candidate to win in my opinion. Give the GG to Tulo but ROY to Braun. That seems like a good deal for both guys.

[Old Sweater]

At least Tulo leads the league in a lot of D stats other then errors like Braun for his position.

Plus rbi's, walks, runs scored for rookies. Tulo deserves the ROY all the way, he has helped his team the whole year.

[AznInvasion]

How can u penalize Braun for not being called up earlier? He has no control over that. Who knows what kind of numbers Braun would have if he had been called up earlier? He might be an MVP candidate even if he was.

[aik27joema]

i would vote for pence, but the poll is closed. hes hitting .322, thats better than anybody else on this list. i dont see how you can vote for tulowitski, hes only hittin .292.

[skyking162]

How can u penalize Braun for not being called up earlier? He has no control over that. Who knows what kind of numbers Braun would have if he had been called up earlier? He might be an MVP candidate even if he was.

If you define Rookie of the Year as "did the most to help his team win ballgames", then you certainly should penalize players for not playing as much as others. (Actually, it's more like rewarding players who played more.)

If you define Rookie of the Year as "player who showed the most promise for a great major league career", then you probably shouldn't penalize lack of playing time -- except that the more a player played, the less likely his performance was flukey good. Under this definition, Braun has a much better case for RoY. I wonder how many people think this way.

[nerfan]

I think the average is what will hurt him the most, guys like Pence and Braun are hitting 100 points higher although neither one of them has spent the entire season in the bigs.
I think Braun will, and probably should win, but despite his low average Young needs to be in the argument. Bubba Crosby hit under .240 when he was ROY.

Bubba Crosby was the Rookie of the Year? I thought it was Bobby Crosby.

And anyway, Young's EQA is .257, which is what happens when your on-base percentage is under .300.

Bobby Crosby's EQA that year was even lower (.251). But the next best rookie was Japanese White Sox closer Shingo Takatsu. In 2004, there really were no rookies in the class of Ryan Braun.

Braun's EQA is .316, behind only David Wright, Chipper Jones, and Miguel Cabrera in National League third basemen. He also has 29.7 Batting Runs to Chris Young's -10.3.

Bubby Crosby does even worse, putting up an OPS+ of 46 in 269 career plate appearances.

An average doesn't mean much. Adam Dunn batted .234 in 2006, but still put up 9.4 Batting Runs. This was because he walked 112 times. Chris Young has hit homers, but has walked 42 times.

Young and his .298 OBP hurt the D-Backs in the leadoff spot, and therefore he should not be considered over a guy who has far better numbers than him.

[NickU]

The big problem that I’m having is over looking his splits, it’s the same reason Matt Holiday isn’t the MVP in my eyes. I know the Rocky Mountain theories are tired, but up in the thin air Tulowitzki hit .330/.398/.564 with 14 homers and 55 RBI, everywhere else his line dropped too .256/.329/.382 with eight homers and 36 RBI. That’s a huge difference, and therefore inexcusable.

[AznInvasion]

If you define Rookie of the Year as "did the most to help his team win ballgames", then you certainly should penalize players for not playing as much as others. (Actually, it's more like rewarding players who played more.)

If you define Rookie of the Year as "player who showed the most promise for a great major league career", then you probably shouldn't penalize lack of playing time -- except that the more a player played, the less likely his performance was flukey good. Under this definition, Braun has a much better case for RoY. I wonder how many people think this way.

Well Tulowitzki played 25 games in 2006 (called up Aug 30 2006). I know he probably doesn't qualify for ROY with that many games played but I look at this year being his 2nd year then if you look at it technically. Plus he wasn't very good last year. We may need the ROY qualifications to clear things up.

[Old Sweater]

Well Tulowitzki played 25 games in 2006 (called up Aug 30 2006). I know he probably doesn't qualify for ROY with that many games played but I look at this year being his 2nd year then if you look at it technically. Plus he wasn't very good last year. We may need the ROY qualifications to clear things up.

He is a rookie or all the local press is wrong here in Denver.

You just now realize that Tulo had a call up last year? And no way does a cup of coffee make Tulowitzki a 2nd year player unless you want to nitpick.

Last night Tulo hit his 23rd HR for his 92nd and 93rd RBI's and followed that with a double in LA. Announcers said Tulo has had 42 rbi's in his last 44 games down the stretch.

[Old Sweater]

The big problem that I’m having is over looking his splits, it’s the same reason Matt Holiday isn’t the MVP in my eyes. I know the Rocky Mountain theories are tired, but up in the thin air Tulowitzki hit .330/.398/.564 with 14 homers and 55 RBI, everywhere else his line dropped too .256/.329/.382 with eight homers and 36 RBI. That’s a huge difference, and therefore inexcusable.

You guys need to pull your head out of the sand. The Rockies play in a major league ball park and are major league players.

[Zagi-CRO]

He is a rookie or all the local press is wrong here in Denver.

You just now realize that Tulo had a call up last year? And no way does a cup of coffee make Tulowitzki a 2nd year player unless you want to nitpick.

Last night Tulo hit his 23rd HR for his 92nd and 93rd RBI's and followed that with a double in LA. Announcers said Tulo has had 42 rbi's in his last 44 games down the stretch.

Tulowitzky IS A ROOKIE.
If you dont believe http://www.baseballprospectus.com/statistics/sortable/index.php?cid=205449


1. Ryan Braun MIL NL 2007 469 7.8% .322 .367 .630 14 5 .390 0.342 0.480 42.8 37.5 52.7
2. Hunter Pence HOU NL 2007 463 7.5% .323 .361 .541 11 5 .258 0.239 0.367 27.5 25.4 39.1
3. Troy Tulowitzki COL NL 2007 653 10.5% .293 .363 .477 7 6 .117 0.133 0.246 17.2 19.7 36.3
4. Dustin Pedroia BOS AL 2007 563 9.0% .314 .378 .431 6 1 .116 0.113 0.248 14.8 14.4 31.7
5. James Loney LAN NL 2007 354 5.8% .335 .384 .538 0 1 .304 0.209 0.366 24.9 17.2 30.0
6. Josh Hamilton CIN NL 2007 337 5.5% .292 .368 .554 3 3 .245 0.227 0.337 18.9 17.6 26.0
7. Brendan Harris TBA AL 2007 576 9.5% .286 .343 .434 4 1 .041 0.057 0.186 5.4 7.6 24.8
8. Yunel Escobar ATL NL 2007 340 5.5% .331 .391 .452 5 3 .198 0.196 0.312 15.4 15.2 24.2
9. Mark Reynolds ARI NL 2007 395 6.7% .283 .350 .506 0 1 .141 0.097 0.214 13.3 9.1 20.3
10. Kevin Kouzmanoff SDN NL 2007 504 8.3% .279 .334 .463 1 0 .089 0.045 0.171 10.4 5.2 20.1


IMO, I can't see a logical reason Braun will not be the 2007 ROY.

[Old Sweater]

Tulowitzky IS A ROOKIE.
IMO, I can't see a logical reason Braun will not be the 2007 ROY.


What about the logical defense that Tulowitzki has over Braun or the logical lead in rbi's, walks, runs scored and the logic that Tulo leads the NL in D catagories other then errors? Braun is a fine hitter but just not the complete player that Tulo is and Tulo plays at a more demanding position. Tulo also has got his rbi's hitting #7 or #2 in the lineup.

Los Angeles - According to Cal Tech research, the probability of the Rockies securing the wild-card berth sits at 19 percent. It is a simple cold calculation of numbers, devoid of emotion.

Throw rookie shortstop Troy Tulowitzki into the computer and he'd spit fire out of the hard drive. He has captivated fans with a performance that while lacking Dante Bichette's flair and Larry Walker's hair, could lead the Rockies back into the playoffs for the first time since 1995.

Tulowitzki's two-run home run in the sixth, and two critical RBI singles from Todd Helton, lifted the Rockies to a 9-7 victory on Tuesday, their ninth straight, equaling a 10-year-old franchise record.

[Erik Bedard]

If the Brewers make the playoffs, Braun will be just as much a part of that as Tulowitzki would be of a Rockies playoff team. Both are incredible players, but Braun's batting rate stats are just so much more impressive. Tulowitzki is better defensively, and perhaps that equals things out. But Tulowitzki has to be penalized at least a little for his home/road splits. I know Coors isn't the hitter's paradise it used to be, but it isn't anything resembling a pitcher's park yet (PF of 107).

[Zagi-CRO]

What about the logical defense that Tulowitzki has over Braun or the logical lead in rbi's, walks, runs scored and the logic that Tulo leads the NL in D catagories other then errors? Braun is a fine hitter but just not the complete player that Tulo is and Tulo plays at a more demanding position. Tulo also has got his rbi's hitting #7 or #2 in the lineup.

OLD Sweater --- hm, hm... two LOGICAL positions /opinions/ !?
Could it be possible? I think, yes!

Erik --- I have to agree with you, now.
--------------------------------------------------------------
But Hunter Pence has 39% of all voters!! What's that?? :laugh

[AznInvasion]

He is a rookie or all the local press is wrong here in Denver.

You just now realize that Tulo had a call up last year? And no way does a cup of coffee make Tulowitzki a 2nd year player unless you want to nitpick.

Last night Tulo hit his 23rd HR for his 92nd and 93rd RBI's and followed that with a double in LA. Announcers said Tulo has had 42 rbi's in his last 44 games down the stretch.

NO SIR! I knew the whole time. I just didn't state it. I figured I mine as well lay everything out. I had to do some research though to find the exact date. I think you underestimate my knowledge of baseball.

[Erik Bedard]

OLD Sweater --- hm, hm... two LOGICAL positions /opinions/ !?
Could it be possible? I think, yes!

Erik --- I have to agree with you, now.
--------------------------------------------------------------
But Hunter Pence has 39% of all voters!! What's that?? :laugh

The original poll was posted when Braun had only played in 30 games.

[Zagi-CRO]

The original poll was posted when Braun had only played in 30 games.

I remember that. But I must say Pence is good, very good.

[Old Sweater]

Tulowitzki 98 RBI's broke Heltons(97) club record for rookies and set the MLB record for any rookie SS that has ever played the game.

[ElHalo]

You guys need to pull your head out of the sand. The Rockies play in a major league ball park and are major league players.

If you want to consider the National Leage a "Major" league... which is kind of silly, in my view.

(Seriously, take the four best non-playoff teams in the AL -- Detroit, Toronto, Seattle, Minnesota -- put them in the NL... does every single one of them make the playoffs? I think so. Perhaps Minny misses out. Nobody else.)

[Old Sweater]

If you want to consider the National Leage a "Major" league... which is kind of silly, in my view.

(Seriously, take the four best non-playoff teams in the AL -- Detroit, Toronto, Seattle, Minnesota -- put them in the NL... does every single one of them make the playoffs? I think so. Perhaps Minny misses out. Nobody else.)

Not to silly when the 83 win Cards won last year.


With Tulowitzki getting more RBI's and runs scored then Braun I just can't see how the defensive superior SS can lose the NL ROY. For team value for the full year it isn't even close between Braun and Tulowitzki.

[philkid3]

The 30 runs here are overall, not relative to position. So you can't just tack them on to VORP.

Could you tack them on to EqR? Does it work that way?

Or just use THT's RC, since you're trusting them for defense basically?

[philkid3]

If you define Rookie of the Year as "player who showed the most promise for a great major league career", then you probably shouldn't penalize lack of playing time -- except that the more a player played, the less likely his performance was flukey good. Under this definition, Braun has a much better case for RoY. I wonder how many people think this way.

I do, or at least similarly. I look at it as the rookie who showed the most ability, and I think that's Braun. If it's best season, however, I would go for Tulo.

I could go either way, and maybe I'm looking at the award wrong. Am I looking at the award wrong?

[ChrisLDuncan]

Braun is a fantastic hitter who is an atrocious defensive third basemen and missed a couple months of the season. Tulowitzki is a good hitter who is an amazing defensive short stop, the best defender in baseball IMO, and played from day one. So I'll go Tulo.

[skyking162]

Originally Posted by skyking162 View Post
The 30 runs here are overall, not relative to position. So you can't just tack them on to VORP.
Could you tack them on to EqR? Does it work that way?

Or just use THT's RC, since you're trusting them for defense basically?

VORP is hitting plus positional adjustment. The 30 run difference between Braun and Tulo is position plus fielding. The difference between SS and 3B is somewhere near 5 runs over a full season. So these numbers would say Tulo is 25 runs better on fielding, which you could tack on to VORP. In actuality, it's probably more like a 35 or 35 run difference.

***********

Like MVP, I'm not sure there's much of a definition for RoY, so you're free to decide how you view it (and both questions are interesting, but in different ways). If we go with your definition, you could give Braun credit for a full season instead of 2/3 of one:

VORP + fielding (extreme estimate):
Tulo 60
Braun 30
Braun * 3/2 = 45

So Tulo still has the edge. Braun gains a lot of offensive credit for playing a full season, but loses a bunch to more fielding gaffes.

[philkid3]

Hmmm. . . maybe I'll be changing my opinion to Tulo.

It's just that Braun is so impressive with the bat, it's hard to actually imagine him not being the better rookie. But then I guess I'm guilty of becoming the people who voted for Howard over Pujols with that point of view.