Todd Helton vs Lance Berkman

[Sockeye]

Who will go down as the better player?

[Lucifer]

Im going with Todd Helton

Per 162 game average:

Helton: 114 R, 193 H, 47 2B, 32 HR, 112 RBI, 100 BB, 78 SO, .333 BA, .431 OBP, .588 SLG, 1.019 OPS
Berkman: 104 R, 170 H, 38 2B, 34 HR, 114 RBI, 106 BB, 112 SO, .301 BA, .414 OBP, .556 SLG, .970 OPS

Plus his Gold Gloves!

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Im going with Todd Helton

Per 162 game average:

Helton: 114 R, 193 H, 47 2B, 32 HR, 112 RBI, 100 BB, 78 SO, .333 BA, .431 OBP, .588 SLG, 1.019 OPS
Berkman: 104 R, 170 H, 38 2B, 34 HR, 114 RBI, 106 BB, 112 SO, .301 BA, .414 OBP, .556 SLG, .970 OPS
Ummm...Coors Field has skewed these stats quite a bit for Helton. Here are their stats in just road games

Helton: .296/.395/.506,
Berkman .297/.406/.566

I'll take Berkman since he has much more power than Helton

[Lucifer]

Home stats count regardless lol.. If Helton was hitting 50 home runs and most of them home, then it would mean more than it does. Helton is a quality hitter more than a power guy, which is what's influenced at Coors

[natsnsoxfan]

I'm going with Helton too. Hes an above average hitter and a gold glove defender. The glove gives him the edge IMO though.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Home stats count regardless lol.. If Helton was hitting 50 home runs and most of them home, then it would mean more than it does. Helton is a quality hitter more than a power guy, which is what's influenced at Coors

My point is that is that his career stats are bloated because he plays at Coors Field. If Helton wasn't a career Rockie his overall career stats would be significantly lower. For his career Helton's line at home is :

.368/.465/.667

You don't think that skews Helton's overal career stats significantly? Do you think Helton is really a .368 hitter? If Helton's overal career stats were exactly as his home stats we'd be arguing if Helton was better than Ted Williams or Babe Ruth. If Helton is really a better hitter than Berkeman then why is his slugging percentage 60 points lower than Berkman's on the road? As for Helton not beng a power guy, Helton has had a 49 HR and a 42 HR season.

[Colorado Express]

I'll say Helton as well. There is something to be said for adjusting to your ballpark too. Wade Boggs made a career off of the Green Monster...if it was so easy to do that, we'd have seen more Red Sox players become legends. Helton's numbers are simply "good" on the road, but they are "incredible" at home.

[Lucifer]

Id say just about ANY player's home stats are higher than his road game stats

Just the first example that came to mind.. Derek Jeter is .374 at home and .314 on the road this year

[Old Sweater]

Why just Coors Field all the time? Since we started using the humidor 5 years ago are park factor has went from 130 to 107 the last 2 years. The Astros is 101.


Take a gander at this list and start bringing up some of these other ball parks for a change.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/parkfactor?season=2007

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Id say just about ANY player's home stats are higher than his road game stats

Just the first example that came to mind.. Derek Jeter is .374 at home and .314 on the road this year
That's just less than half a season, which means nothing. Over his career Jeter has hit .324 at home and .312 on the road.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Why just Coors Field all the time? Since we started using the humidor 5 years ago are park factor has went from 130 to 107 the last 2 years. The Astros is 101.


Take a gander at this list and start bringing up some of these other ball parks for a change.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/parkfactor?season=2007
Why does that matter? "Road" games would encompass all the other ballparks. Helton is a good hitter. He is certainly not a great hitter. By hittin .368 at home he gets to fatten up his career rate stats.

[-Kyle-]

Why just Coors Field all the time? Since we started using the humidor 5 years ago are park factor has went from 130 to 107 the last 2 years. The Astros is 101.


Take a gander at this list and start bringing up some of these other ball parks for a change.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/parkfactor?season=2007

Thats pretty cool. Fenway is the best for hits and doubles but one of the worst for HR and triples.

[Lucifer]

That's just less than half a season, which means nothing. Over his career Jeter has hit .324 at home and .312 on the road.

Still a difference tho lol.. and when you're at Yankee Stadium, for Jeter's first at bat every game they put up on the big screen that he's hitting a career something close to 340, so that's interesting.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Still a difference tho lol.. and when you're at Yankee Stadium, for Jeter's first at bat every game they put up on the big screen that he's hitting a career something close to 340, so that's interesting.
A much smaller difference than Helton's gap.

[slugger33]

Helton has a .333 carer BA, he has HoF caliber numbers.

[Lucifer]

You're right. But still, you can't fault a guy that much for the home field he hits in and his ability to adapt to it's dimensions. It's not like he's hitting a big time home run number which would be very directly effected by Coors field.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

You're right. But still, you can't fault a guy that much for the home field he hits in and his ability to adapt to it's dimensions. It's not like he's hitting a big time home run number which would be very directly effected by Coors field.
I give Helton his due. He is a good hitter but he's no better than Will Clark. If Helton makes the HoF I will vomit.

[Lucifer]

You'll vomit if he makes the Hall? That's harsh and he's got a long way to go before his career is over (probably), hes 33

[Zito75]

Why just Coors Field all the time? Since we started using the humidor 5 years ago are park factor has went from 130 to 107 the last 2 years. The Astros is 101.


Take a gander at this list and start bringing up some of these other ball parks for a change.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/parkfactor?season=2007

Thank you!

It drives me batty when people keeping bringing up the 'ol Coors Field excuse- that's so 1999. But I agree with you, simply because there are several parks out there where more runs were scored.

One last thing- Helton is WAY better than Will Clark... The 2 aren't even on the same plain. Sorry.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Thank you!

It drives me batty when people keeping bringing up the 'ol Coors Field excuse- that's so 1999. But I agree with you, simply because there are several parks out there where more runs were scored.

One last thing- Helton is WAY better than Will Clark... The 2 aren't even on the same plain. Sorry.
Helton is not WAY better than Will Clark.

POST #6,000!!!

[Honus Wagner Rules]

You'll vomit if he makes the Hall? That's harsh and he's got a long way to go before his career is over (probably), hes 33
I was using hyperbole to express my views of Todd Helton. Actually, it's not Helton himself, from what I read he is a fine gentleman, but the agenda to make him more than what he really is. As I said Helton is good hitter but he's not an elite hitter.

[KCGHOST]

Helton has had the better career to date, but is two years older. He is showing signs of decline. If Berkman was having a real Berkman type year I would have picked him.

Helton has a shot at the HoF, but it is going to take a good decline, some campaigning and some savvy on part of the electorate.

[Zito75]

Helton is not WAY better than Will Clark.

POST #6,000!!!

OK dude, whatever you say. You're certainly entitled to your opinion and I respect that.

The fact is, Helton has a career BA about 30 points higher that Clark, and also leads in virtually every offensive category (runs?, 2B, RBI, HR, etc) and he did it in fewer years than Clark.

[538280]

OK dude, whatever you say. You're certainly entitled to your opinion and I respect that.

The fact is, Helton has a career BA about 30 points higher that Clark, and also leads in virtually every offensive category (runs?, 2B, RBI, HR, etc) and he did it in fewer years than Clark.

In context of their era and park Helton and Clark are nearly the same as hitters. Helton has a 143 OPS+ and Clark 138, but Clark has about 500 more games played as of right now. Through about the same amount of games Clark's OPS+ was 143 as well. Both are excellent fielders. Overall I'd say they're probably going to end up very similar, about the same.

[Old Sweater]

Thank you!

It drives me batty when people keeping bringing up the 'ol Coors Field excuse- that's so 1999. But I agree with you, simply because there are several parks out there where more runs were scored.



Drives me crazy to. One thing I liked about the Yankee and Rockies series at Coors Field is that it showed to a lot of fans here on the board that you can have a low scoring series at Coors Field. Coors Field will probably be in the top 5 for runs scored, but damn, are park factor is down to 107 for 2 years. Let the stat hounds pick on some of the other parks also like Cincinnati's that has a 108 park factor.

Yaz
306 402 492 home
264 357 371 away
Rice
320 374 546 home
277 330 459 away
Banks
286 345 530 home
255 309 460 away
Ryne
300 361 491 home
269 326 412 away
Santo
296 385 522 home
257 342 406 away
Michael Young
325 370 491
276 319 409

Now all the above is hitters parks. None of them have the extreme as Coors Field pre 2002 but it shows that good hitters hit better at a hitters park. If Helton came into the league in 2002 his home and away stats would be closer and still be considered a great hitter.

[nolanryan5714]

This is a *truly* unbiased comment / question:

For those of you looking at Gold Glove stats, who has taken into consideration the fact that Berkman has primarily played a position he was not a contender for (right field) during the Bagwell years?

Berkman is having an off-year, and that also may skew some opinions.

[Lucifer]

We realize that he's in the Bagwell years, but Gold Gloves don't go RF CF LF, just OF so that doesn't really matter.

Helton's still gonna make the Hall, it doesn't matter that he plays in Coors, that excuse is overrated and worn out

[Honus Wagner Rules]

We realize that he's in the Bagwell years, but Gold Gloves don't go RF CF LF, just OF so that doesn't really matter.

Helton's still gonna make the Hall, it doesn't matter that he plays in Coors, that excuse is overrated and worn out

Right. So it doesn't matter tha Coors Field has ridiculously bloated his stats. The man has hit over his career has hit .368/.462/.677 at home. He is fricking Lou Gehrig/Jimmie Foxx at home and Will Clark/Keith Hernandez in other ballparks. Why do people emphatically refuse to see that? Let me ask you this. If Helton had played for any other team would he have a career .331 BA? His road stats show him to be a good hitter and nothing more. It will matter that he plays in Coors Field because the voters will take a long hard look. If Helton leaves the Rockies his rate stats will take an immediate plunge.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

OK dude, whatever you say. You're certainly entitled to your opinion and I respect that.

The fact is, Helton has a career BA about 30 points higher that Clark, and also leads in virtually every offensive category (runs?, 2B, RBI, HR, etc) and he did it in fewer years than Clark.
We need to take the different ballparks and different run scoring envirements into account. Helton's best seasons came in the early 2000s in Coors Field while Will Clark's best seasons came in the late 1980s in Candlestick Park. The difference between the NL of the late 1980s and the NL of the early 2000s is huge in terms of run scoring.

[Lucifer]

But, he didn't play in any other park, he played in Coors Field. So, nobody with good numbers as a Rockie should make the Hall? I realize what you're saying, but you can't just not include someone cause of where they play. He's still putting up those numbers, and it's been shown Coors doesn't do as much for you as most people think, a lot of guys are better at home too

[Honus Wagner Rules]

But, he didn't play in any other park, he played in Coors Field. So, nobody with good numbers as a Rockie should make the Hall?
It's not that simple. Coors Field has inflated his overall stats. We know this. Coors Field has created the illusion of Helton being a great hitter. But he is not. I'll give an analogy. The 1920s-30s was a time of great offense. Decent and average players put up ridiculous numbers compared to other eras. In 1930 the entire NL hit .303. Think about that for a moment. The average player was a .300 hitter. Five of the eight NL teams hit over .300. The NY Giants hit .319 as a team. Contrast that to the American League in 1968. Carl Yastrzemski hit .301 to win the batting title. Without taking into accout the context of league is Yaz worse than the average hitter in 1930? I mentioned earlier that Helton is basically the same as Will Clark. I see them as strikingly similar hitters and they are, their OPS+ are the same through the same number of games. Helton has the superfically better stats because he gets to play half his games in Coors Field and Clark didn't. Context is everything when looking at a ballplayer. I'm really not that imoressed with Helton. As I said he is a good hitter.



I realize what you're saying, but you can't just not include someone cause of where they play. He's still putting up those numbers, and it's been shown Coors doesn't do as much for you as most people think, a lot of guys are better at home too
My issue with Helton is that his career numbers are not a accurate reflection of his true skills. He has a career .331 BA but is he really a true .331 hitter? Depending on how Helton ages I may endorse his HoF candidacy if he ages well. And contrary to popular belief I DO NOT discount completely his home stats. But I use his road stats to shed some light on his home stats. But if I believe strongly that for a rockies player we need to take a long and hard look at their road stats. If some future Rockies player has the same home stats as Helton but has road stats like .315/.410/.550, I would endorse such a player for the HOF.

Helton's road stats are

.297/.395/.506

Thse would be great numbers for the 1980s but hardly impressive for a first baseman playing in the mid 1990s-2000s. Think about it this way. Of the first baseman over the past 7-10 years where should we rank Helton? Helton has to compete against Thomas, Bagwell, Thome, Delgado, Pujols, McGwire, and Palmeiro. That's a tough group to match up against.

[Old Sweater]

If some future Rockies player has the same home stats as Helton but has road stats like .315/.410/.550, I would endorse such a player for the HOF.


So in other words, if you were on the HOF voting committee you would be penalizing every great hitter that was drafted and played most of their career for the Rockies. Guess if Matt Holliday keeps going at his current pace for 15 more years he wouldn't get your vote either. Players can't help which team drafts them.

I guess in years past you wouldn't have voted for Yaz, Sandberg or Banks since they also have inflated home stats.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

So in other words, if you were on the HOF voting committee you would be penalizing every great hitter that was drafted and played most of their career for the Rockies. Guess if Matt Holliday keeps going at his current pace for 15 more years he wouldn't get your vote either. Players can't help which team drafts them.
No and don't put words in my mouth. I am specifically talking about Todd Helton for now. As for Holliday for his career:

home: .366/.425/.646
road: .268/.321/.438

So you have a hitter who hits almost 100 points and slugs over 200 points better at home. How do you explain that?



I guess in years past you wouldn't have voted for Yaz, Sandberg or Banks since they also have inflated home stats.
Did they have have career .368/.465/.667 home stats?

And you are conveniently forgetting why Yaz, Sandberg, and Banks are in the HoF; Yaz, Triple Crown winner, 3,000+ hits, long career, Sandberg, power hitting second baseman with many Gold Gloves, an Banks is a 500+ HR hitter with two MVP awards. Helton doesn't have any of these career accomplishments other than Gold Gloves.

[Old Sweater]

Yaz
306 402 492 home
264 357 371 away
Banks
286 345 530 home
255 309 460 away
Ryne
300 361 491 home
269 326 412 away
Helton
368 465 667 home
295 395 505 away

Did they have have career .368/.465/.667 home stats?

No and they certainley didn't have 295 395 505 away stats either.

[Old Sweater]

As for Holliday for his career:

home: .366/.425/.646
road: .268/.321/.438

So you have a hitter who hits almost 100 points and slugs over 200 points better at home. How do you explain that?



Hits better at home. Coors Field's park factor is 107 this year so it can't be all Coors Field hitting anymore.

Jake Peavey pitches at PETCO the anti-Coors Field and his ERA is 3.05 at home and 3.72 away. Still a great pitcher isn't he even with the .67 difference.

[Lucifer]

Can someone get the average road stats for ML players in the Helton era? Those are still good numbers on the road. Id be willing to stake my life that he's above average on the road, and what he's done at home is enough to put him to the Hall

[Old Sweater]

Can someone get the average road stats for ML players in the Helton era? Those are still good numbers on the road. Id be willing to stake my life that he's above average on the road, and what he's done at home is enough to put him to the Hall

Heltons 295 395 505 away stats is above average for home stats of other players.

[Lucifer]

^Seriously. You guys are too into the Coors Field bs

[Old Sweater]

^Seriously. You guys are too into the Coors Field bs

Why's that?

[Lucifer]

I was agreeing with you, as you were aiding to my comment.

(Coors Field bs being the stigma that anyone can hit there, essentially)

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Yaz
306 402 492 home
264 357 371 away
Banks
286 345 530 home
255 309 460 away
Ryne
300 361 491 home
269 326 412 away
Helton
368 465 667 home
295 395 505 away



No and they certainley didn't have 295 395 505 away stats either.
And? As I stated before the other three ballplayers had many other things going for them that got them enducted into the HoF. We are just going to agree to disagree.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Hits better at home. Coors Field's park factor is 107 this year so it can't be all Coors Field hitting anymore.
Well first of all these are Holliday's career home stats not just this season. And just because Coors has a park factor of 107 this year in no way means that it will always be 107 in the future. It can increase in the future just as it has decreased from the past. Just two years ago it was 113 and three years ago it was 120.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Heltons 295 395 505 away stats is above average for home stats of other players.
They are above average but are they HoF caliber for a first baseman playing in the 1990s-2000s? That's the key question. A .505 slug% is this era is NOT impressive for this modern era.

[Lucifer]

They are HoF caliber, when combined with his home stats. You can't just not include those lol

[Captain Cold Nose]

They are above average but are they HoF caliber for a first baseman playing in the 1990s-2000s? That's the key question. A .505 slug% is this era is NOT impressive for this modern era.

What are the road slug% for other HOF caliber first basemen of this era?

[MyDogSparty]

Helton's road stats are

.297/.395/.506



I think it needs to be mentioned that it's not comparing apples to apples when you compare Helton's road stats to most any other NL player's road stats because most any other NL player's road stats will include time spent playing in Coor's field.

[Old Sweater]

What are the road slug% for other HOF caliber first basemen of this era?

Bagwell 521
Thome 531
Palmeiro 502
McGriff 510
Mienkiewicz 387.....j/k

others
Derrek Lee 515
Konerko 455

[Captain Cold Nose]

Bagwell 521
Thome 531
Palmeiro 502
McGriff 510
Mienkiewicz 387.....j/k

others
Derrek Lee 515
Konerko 455

So it's comparable, certainly not a reason to reject someone's case, as if half their career is, anyway.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Bagwell 521
Thome 531
Palmeiro 502
McGriff 510
Palmeiro and McGriff actually reinforce my argument against Helton. Palmeiro and McGriff have an overall career slugging percentages of .515 and 509, respectively. So is it more likely that had Helton played for any other team would his overall career slugging perecentage be closer to .667 or .506? Also both Palmeiro and McGriff started their careers in the 1980s. McGriff won two HR titles with totals of 35 HRs and 36 HRs. Imagine that.



Mienkiewicz 387.....j/k
:rofl:



others
Derrek Lee 515
Konerko 455
Yes, and no one is supporting Lee and Konerko for the HoF.

[Old Sweater]

And you are conveniently forgetting why Yaz, Sandberg, and Banks are in the HoF; Yaz, Triple Crown winner, 3,000+ hits, long career, Sandberg, power hitting second baseman with many Gold Gloves, an Banks is a 500+ HR hitter with two MVP awards. Helton doesn't have any of these career accomplishments other than Gold Gloves.

I"m not forgetting none of this. Each one deserves to be in the HOF. Helton I don't believe will get to 3000 hits but should have 2700+ with a .400+ OBP at the end of his career.

I'm just wondering why their gap in home and away don't effect you as much as Heltons. The gap is not as large but it certainly contributed to their careers. Ryne isn't going to win all those silver slugger awards with that .269 away BA. Banks isn't going to have those 512 HR's if they didn't play at Wrigley, but their careers shouldn't be thought less of just because they did.

[Old Sweater]

Palmeiro and McGriff actually reinforce my argument against Helton.

And weaken it for any other HOF'er or good player that has a large gap in their home and away stats. Don Drysdale's ERA was a full run more on the road and just was a .500 pitcher but I still consider him a deserving HOF'er. Just think if Clemens and Maddux had had a career at PETCO, they both probably would have over 400 wins. Maddux at Petco this year is 2.78 and 4.89 for home and away.