Balk/No Balk???

[redbird73]

Can anyone explain to me why it is not a balk for a pitcher to fake a throw to 2d or 3d when the bases are occuppied or a runner is approaching the base but it is a balk for the pitcher to fake a throw to first?

[Old Sweater]

Can anyone explain to me why it is not a balk for a pitcher to fake a throw to 2d or 3d when the bases are occuppied or a runner is approaching the base but it is a balk for the pitcher to fake a throw to first?

Sure.

8.05
If there is a runner, or runners, it is a balk when --
(a) The pitcher, while touching his plate, makes any motion naturally associated with his pitch and fails to make such delivery;
Rule 8.05(a) Comment: If a lefthanded or righthanded pitcher swings his free foot past the back edge of the pitcher’s rubber, he is required to pitch to the batter except to throw to second base on a pick-off-play. (b) The pitcher, while touching his plate, feints a throw to first base and fails to complete the throw;
(c) The pitcher, while touching his plate, fails to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base;
Rule 8.05(c) Comment: Requires the pitcher, while touching his plate, to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base. If a pitcher turns or spins off of his free foot without actually stepping or if he turns his body and throws before stepping, it is a balk.
A pitcher is to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base but does not require him to throw (except to first base only) because he steps. It is possible, with runners on first and third, for the pitcher to step toward third and not throw, merely to bluff the runner back to third; then seeing the runner on first start for second, turn and step toward and throw to first base. This is legal. However, if, with runners on first and third, the pitcher, while in contact with the rubber, steps toward third and then immediately and in practically the same motion “wheels” and throws to first base, it is obviously an attempt to deceive the runner at first base, and in such a move it is practically impossible to step directly toward first base before the throw to first base, and such a move shall be called a balk. Of course, if the pitcher steps off the rubber and then makes such a move, it is not a balk.
(d) The pitcher, while touching his plate, throws, or feints a throw to an unoccupied base, except for the purpose of making a play;
(e) The pitcher makes an illegal pitch;
Rule 8.05(e) Comment: A quick pitch is an illegal pitch. Umpires will judge a quick pitch as one delivered before the batter is reasonably set in the batter’s box. With runners on base the penalty is a balk; with no runners on base, it is a ball. The quick pitch is dangerous and should not be permitted.
(f) The pitcher delivers the ball to the batter while he is not facing the batter;
(g) The pitcher makes any motion naturally associated with his pitch while he is not touching the pitcher’s plate;
(h) The pitcher unnecessarily delays the game;
Rule 8.05(h) Comment: Rule 8.05(h) shall not apply when a warning is given pursuant to Rule 8.02(c) (which prohibits intentional delay of a game by throwing to fielders not in an attempt to put a runner out). If a pitcher is ejected pursuant to Rule 8.02(c) for continuing to delay the game, the penalty in Rule 8.05(h) shall also apply. Rule 8.04 (which sets a time limit for a pitcher to deliver the ball when the bases are unoccupied) applies only when there are no runners on base.
(i) The pitcher, without having the ball, stands on or astride the pitcher’s plate or while off the plate, he feints a pitch;
(j) The pitcher, after coming to a legal pitching position, removes one hand from the ball other than in an actual pitch, or in throwing to a base;
(k) The pitcher, while touching his plate, accidentally or intentionally drops the ball;
(l) The pitcher, while giving an intentional base on balls, pitches when the catcher is not in the catcher’s box;
(m)The pitcher delivers the pitch from Set Position without coming to a stop.
PENALTY: The ball is dead, and each runner shall advance one base without liability to be put out, unless the batter reaches first on a hit, an error, a base on balls, a hit batter, or otherwise, and all other runners advance at least one base, in which case the play proceeds without reference to the balk.
APPROVED RULING: In cases where a pitcher balks and throws wild, either to a base or to home plate, a runner or runners may advance beyond the base to which he is entitled at his own risk.
APPROVED RULING: A runner who misses the first base to which he is advancing and who is called out on appeal shall be considered as having advanced one base for the purpose of this rule. Rule 8.05 Comment: Umpires should bear in mind that the purpose of the balk rule is to prevent the pitcher from deliberately deceiving the base runner. If there is doubt in the umpire’s mind, the “intent” of the pitcher should govern. However, certain specifics should be borne in mind:
(a) Straddling the pitcher’s rubber without the ball is to be interpreted as intent to deceive and ruled a balk.
(b) With a runner on first base the pitcher may make a complete turn, without hesitating toward first, and throw to second. This is not to be interpreted as throwing to an unoccupied base.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

About clear as mud ain't it?

[brett]

If the pitcher's throwing arm starts to move forward and then backward a second time (a double pump) is that a balk? I seem to remember something about Nen.

[Utter Chaos]

A pitcher is to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base but does not require him to throw (except to first base only) because he steps.I think the original poster is wondering why is there an exception for first base? What is the reasoning behind allowing the pitcher to fake a throw to the other bases but not first base?

[UGDodgersSS#13]

After looking over the rules defining a balk it seems these two situations dont fall under any of the rules...

1. with runners on 1st and 2nd, a right-handed pitcher is in the middle of his delivery and turns slightly (but noticeably) towards 2nd base then continues on to throw the pitch. This is not something that he did in his delivery in any other situation/ it is not a normal part of his delivery with no one on base.

2. the pitcher is on the mound but off the rubber and brings his fingers to his mouth.

Are these balks or not?

[KCGHOST]

2. the pitcher is on the mound but off the rubber and brings his fingers to his mouth.

That is not a balk, but the umpire is permitted to call a "ball" unless he has granted permission for the pitcher to do that. Usually such permission is only given on cold days when a pitcher needs to blow on his fingers to keep them warm.

[brett]

I think the original poster is wondering why is there an exception for first base? What is the reasoning behind allowing the pitcher to fake a throw to the other bases but not first base?


My guess is that a pitcher could just send a guy on first diving back again and again with a fake. They wanted to force him to throw it in those situations.

[bluezebra]

My guess is that a pitcher could just send a guy on first diving back again and again with a fake. They wanted to force him to throw it in those situations.

You never saw a runner dive back into 2B or 3B on a fake throw? Guess again.

Bob

[redbird73]

As far as I know it is a balk if he touches his mouth and in cold weather if both managers agree then the pitchers can breathe on their hands to keep their hands warm but otherwise it is a balk

[redbird73]

The reason why I ask the question is because I was reading Baseball Field Guide by Formosa and Hamburger (yes really his last name) and it said that on the chapter on Pitching Rules....I thought the pitcher couldn't fake a throw period...but if the book is right which I assume it is....then why the difference?

[redbird73]

Sorry KCGhost didn't see your post til now....I think you are right about it being able to be called a ball by ump :nod:

[Old Sweater]

I think the original poster is wondering why is there an exception for first base? What is the reasoning behind allowing the pitcher to fake a throw to the other bases but not first base?

Yeah, I know. Thats why I repiled 'about clear as mud' after reading those confusing balk rules again. My only logical thought is that the runner isn't in scoring position at 1st and it gives more advantage to the runner. Of course if Bob don't know the reason after umping all those years I suppose we all are guessing.

[brett]

You never saw a runner dive back into 2B or 3B on a fake throw? Guess again.

Bob


Yes, but the number of throws to first base in a game have to be 10 times more than to all other bases combined. Also an effecitve fake to second requires the second baseman usually to be significantly out of position and work hard himself.

I think that people realized pretty early on that the ability of a guy on first to lead off was essential to creating the potential for steals to be a part of the game. They knew that steals had fan appeal and that with fakes to first, you would almost eliminate them.

[redbird73]

Yes, but the number of throws to first base in a game have to be 10 times more than to all other bases combined. Also an effecitve fake to second requires the second baseman usually to be significantly out of position and work hard himself.

I think that people realized pretty early on that the ability of a guy on first to lead off was essential to creating the potential for steals to be a part of the game. They knew that steals had fan appeal and that with fakes to first, you would almost eliminate them.

Thanks for that one....that makes sense to me....
Seems right on....

[Bigrcube]

I think the original poster is wondering why is there an exception for first base? What is the reasoning behind allowing the pitcher to fake a throw to the other bases but not first base?

Well, actually.....with a fake throw to 2nd or 3rd base, the pitcher can then
make a fake throw to first base, but ONLY afterwards....
....and by then he no longer has his foot on the rubber (or pitcher's plate).
That would be one exception.

[Bigrcube]

My guess is that a pitcher could just send a guy on first diving back again and again with a fake. They wanted to force him to throw it in those situations.

Well.....it all gets down to deception, and since the 1st baseman is right next
to 1st base and holding the runner on.....unlike the 2nd or 3rd baseman,
or shortstop.....it *IS* a different situation. And besides, that's the rules.

[Bigrcube]

As far as I know it is a balk if he touches his mouth and in cold weather if both managers agree then the pitchers can breathe on their hands to keep their hands warm but otherwise it is a balk

It's *NOT* just the managers agreeing here. It's *BOTH* managers asking
(requesting) of the home plate umpire for that courtesy in cold weather.
After all, the pitchers have to be able to feel and grip the ball, or it's just
gonna slip out of their hands/fingers. And then that leads to a high & tight...
.....in the dirt, etc. ALL night long!?!?

[redbird73]

It's *NOT* just the managers agreeing here. It's *BOTH* managers asking
(requesting) of the home plate umpire for that courtesy in cold weather.
After all, the pitchers have to be able to feel and grip the ball, or it's just
gonna slip out of their hands/fingers. And then that leads to a high & tight...
.....in the dirt, etc. ALL night long!?!?

I'm sorry I should have been a bit more specific in my comment about the two managers requesting rather than agreeing..... I used the term agree because if both managers request then they agree in a certain respect that it is necessary.

Thanks for keeping me on my toes....I'll be more careful the next time.

[Bigrcube]

I'm sorry I should have been a bit more specific in my comment about the two managers requesting rather than agreeing..... I used the term agree because if both managers request then they agree in a certain respect that it is necessary.

Thanks for keeping me on my toes....I'll be more careful the next time.

I just meant that they (the managers) agreed to ask the umpire for permission.
Afterall, it's the man in blue who grants such requests.
Now.....the $64,000 question: Which umpire grants that wish?
Home Plate or Crew Chief? That's a good one, ay?!