Zambrano to the cards??

[Senior skittles]

Rumor: Cardinals Getting Zambrano?
Wow... just wow. It's not often I get shocked by anything in the world of baseball. Not these days anyway. However, the thought "Maybe I shouldn't say that" has clearly never entered Carlos Zambrano's mind and thus, I'm writing this post in a state of shock. Matter of fact, I'm just gonna quote the Chicago Tribune on this one...

"Mark Buehrle still gets heat for wearing a St. Louis Cardinals cap at a World Series game last October, but Carlos Zambrano one-upped Buehrle before Thursday's Cubs game.

Zambrano motioned to reporters standing around the clubhouse and pointed to a box that contained a pair of red shinguards.

"It's a gift from my next catcher, Yadier," Zambrano said.

Zambrano was referring to St. Louis catcher Yadier Molina, although he didn't specify whether he was going to St. Louis or Molina was coming to the Cubs."

See what I mean? I'll try to weigh in on this later with my opinion but just so you know, Yadi's not going anywhere...




That article is from......
http://rumormill.mlblogs.com/the_rumor_mill/st_louis_cardinals_rumors/index.html


heres my 2 cents....ill take buherle and big Z...imagine this

carpenter
buherle
zambrano
mulder
wainwright

omg if they all stayed healthy.....that would be crazy....doubt it happens but i can dream

[Zito75]

Don't count your chickens before the eggs hatch... Isn't Chicago in need of a catcher?

[bluezebra]

Sure. The Cubs will trade Zambrano to their bitterest rival. Don't bet the farm on it.

Bob

[ChrisLDuncan]

Next I see the Red Sox trading Beckett and Papelbon to the Red Sox for Carl Pavano and Kyle Farnsworth. Jim Hendry does dumb things, lots of them, but nothing this dumb.

[rockin500]

Sure. The Cubs will trade Zambrano to their bitterest rival. Don't bet the farm on it.

Bob
well, theoretically he COULD sign with the cards. but the cards dont have nearly enough money to spend on him. they dont have 20 mil per year to spend on a pitcher

[Senior skittles]

I didnt write it........ and like I said, I can dream....

[STLCards2]

Just what the Cardinals need to do...pay 25 million dollers per season over the next however many years for a hot-head, no-control (behavior or ability to throw the ball over the plate), inconsistant, clubhouse problem who has been overused by his managers and heading for a Prior/Woodesque run of injuries - and a slowing down, rate dropping lefty. It reminds me of another time when the Cardinals aquired an ex All-Star lefty who was coming off a bad year while his K rate was dropping yearly almost at the same rate that his BB and HR rates were increasing (Mr. Mulder anybody?)
I am sure the Cardinal could spend their money more wisely.

[cosmo34]

no-control (behavior or ability to throw the ball over the plate)

And here I am thinking 31.2 IP, 4ER, and 35K's over a guys last 4 starts was fairly good. Silly me

[The Cobb]

Sure. The Cubs will trade Zambrano to their bitterest rival. Don't bet the farm on it.

Bob

The Cubs and Cards trade players all the time.

[STLCards2]

And here I am thinking 31.2 IP, 4ER, and 35K's over a guys last 4 starts was fairly good. Silly me

And of course 4 games is an accurate representation of his control problems over the course of his career. Oh wait... you are right. I just checked his stats. His career BB rate is fantastic! How did I miss that?

I never said he wasn't good...just not worth the price he will get by some stupid club that will way overpay him (Burnett, Zito, Schmidt). Maybe the same team that is spending 20 million a year for Marquis and Lily can spend 30 million a year for Burlhe and Zambrano!

[The Cobb]

I can't stand Zambrano. I think he's a hothead and a liability. I read an interview with him in Baseball Digest and the journalist asked "What is something about you that no one knows?" Zambrano answered, "That I'm not a hotheaded guy. I'm actually quite calm on the field." I called BS. He's also, supposedly, a devout Christian (which is kind of neat). I always said that I can't stand Z, but he sure would look great in Cardinal red.

The Cards don't need the money to sign Z. People take paycuts on that team (always have) in order to fit key ingredients into the lineup.

[StanTheMan]

And here I am thinking 31.2 IP, 4ER, and 35K's over a guys last 4 starts was fairly good. Silly me

Would you also say that Johnny Van Der Meer is the greatest pitcher of all-time?

Silly you indeed. :applaud:

[StanTheMan]

Before Zambrano's recent stretch of decent to very good outings...

his ERA was a majestic 5.64 thsi season.

$20 million? Over three years maybe! This Cardinals fan does not want him at what the market will dictate.... (market = crazy teams)

[cosmo34]

Would you also say that Johnny Van Der Meer is the greatest pitcher of all-time?


Would you say that you are biased against Zambrano's 2.43 career ERA against your beloved Cards?

[StanTheMan]

Would you say that you are biased against Zambrano's 2.43 career ERA against your beloved Cards?


Well done Cosmo... you posted what is quite possibly the most ridiculous thing I have read on BBF in a LONG time....

Player A has FANTASTIC success against team B
I'm a big fan of team B (to the tune of having attended 6 World Series games in which they've played)
Player A is rumored to become a part of team B

I am biased AGAINST his excellent success against the Cards? Are you thinking before your type? Zambrano going to the Cards would 1. Eliminate his success AGAINST the Cards and 2. Add to the pitcihng staff.... It's really quite simple.... let me know if you need help with it.

Bottom line is.... Zambrano is simply NOT Cardinals material. Here's why I don't want him.

He's hotheaded and has shown a lack of self-control.

He pitches as much with his emotions as he does with his arm... sometimes this leads to MAJOR problems, horrible outings, and fights with teammates

He's bad for your clubhouse.. see the two above.

He's been overworked for about three seasons now... and my be injury prone.

He makes outrageos claims that he cannot back up.... such as "I'm gonna win the Cy Young".. and then has an ERA of 5.6 after about 10 starts or so.... LOL.

And mostly.....He will be overpriced... plenty of teams will be willing to pay for his "potential" overvaluing his past sucesses, and undervaluing his present deficiencies.... i.e. an ERA this year which is very poor, even by Cardinals standards. He'll cost more than Chris Carpenter is getting.... and that's #1 Completely Nuts and #2 CLEARLY not how the Cardinals operate. As the team with the second most World Championships behind the Yankees..... the Cards philosophy works.... we shouldn't change it for any pitcher with a 4 or 5 era, regardless of past success.

[cosmo34]

Well done Cosmo... you posted what is quite possibly the most ridiculous thing I have read on BBF in a LONG time....


You obviously missed my point. All I stated out was that you seem to have a dislike for Big Z, and I thought it could be because of his 2.43 ERA vs. the Cards.


Player A has FANTASTIC success against team B
I'm a big fan of team B (to the tune of having attended 6 World Series games in which they've played)
Player A is rumored to become a part of team B

I am biased AGAINST his excellent success against the Cards? Are you thinking before your type? Zambrano going to the Cards would 1. Eliminate his success AGAINST the Cards and 2. Add to the pitcihng staff.... It's really quite simple.... let me know if you need help with it.

Again, I think you missed my point. I never said anything about him going to the Cards. And yes I am thinking before I type. Perhaps you should try the same, so you don't have so many grammatical errors.


Bottom line is.... Zambrano is simply NOT Cardinals material.

But Kip Wells and Anthony Reyes are?


He makes outrageos claims that he cannot back up.... such as "I'm gonna win the Cy Young".. and then has an ERA of 5.6 after about 10 starts or so.... LOL.

You wouldn't want that kind of confidence in a player? Sure it sounds stupid when said out loud, but no one has ever had any success by just going out there and hoping to get the job done. Would you want a hitter with the mindset of, "Gee I sure hope I can make contact today". I'm sure there are plenty of guys that feel the same way that Z does. Z is the only one who said it, and when a guy puts himself out there like that, peopke assume he's some super cocky peice of crap, and no one else talks like that. Sure, not too many other major leaguers say it, but they all feel the same way.


And mostly.....He will be overpriced... plenty of teams will be willing to pay for his "potential" overvaluing his past sucesses, and undervaluing his present deficiencies.... i.e. an ERA this year which is very poor, even by Cardinals standards. He'll cost more than Chris Carpenter is getting.... and that's #1 Completely Nuts and #2 CLEARLY not how the Cardinals operate. As the team with the second most World Championships behind the Yankees..... the Cards philosophy works.... we shouldn't change it for any pitcher with a 4 or 5 era, regardless of past success.

Undervaluing present deficiencies? Does that mean the Cards correctly value current deficiencies? Then why haven't Wells and Reyes been shipped back to Single-A.

Also you jumped off the bridge about "how the Cards operate" and "he wouldn't fit in our organization", and "blah blah blah". Please show me where I said Z will, in fact, be traded to the Cardinals.

[Senior skittles]

The games diffrent now.....you cant pull this overpaid card mutch longer...because that is what everyone is gonna be making in the next few years(pitchers anyway). Inflation is not gonna stop, its only gonna get worse. And if the cardinals dont jump on board soon....we may see another 20 year WS drought god forbid 50-100 years! Yes whatever Z gets will be way more than hes worth, but I can promise you that 90% of the players in this years free agencey will be considered "overpaid". I have seen no indication that BIg Z is breaking down or injury prone, so i say he deserves his big long contract....hopefully with the cardinals.

[cosmo34]

The games diffrent now.....you cant pull this overpaid card mutch longer...because that is what everyone is gonna be making in the next few years(pitchers anyway). Inflation is not gonna stop, its only gonna get worse. And if the cardinals dont jump on board soon....we may see another 20 year WS drought god forbid 50-100 years! Yes whatever Z gets will be way more than hes worth, but I can promise you that 90% of the players in this years free agencey will be considered "overpaid".

That's what I was thinking. Everybody is overpaid these days. It's not gonna be too long before utility guys are pulling in $5mil a year.

StanTheMan was talking about how many championships the Cards have won and how "their philosophy works". All but 2 were won in a different era of baseball. Things are drastically different now than they were in the 60's.

[JRJohnson6]

I would like to know where this information about Zambrano to the Cards was found. I checked all over the Tribune website and found nothing. Explain?

[hiddengem]

Everybody is overpaid these days. It's not gonna be too long before utility guys are pulling in $5mil a year.



Do you even have the slightest clue as to how difficult a job the utility man has? I highly doubt it.

[cosmo34]

As a matter of fact, that is what I'm listed as

[StanTheMan]

StanTheMan was talking about how many championships the Cards have won and how "their philosophy works". All but 2 were won in a different era of baseball. Things are drastically different now than they were in the 60's.


Young man........

Where oh where did I ever claim that the Cardinals should try to win in today's era, with say, the philosophy from their many, many triumphs in say, the 1940's? Will the Redbirds suddenly have 40+ farm teams and sign thousands of youth players without watching them play more than a few games?

Do you even know how the Cards have been operating in the last 6 years? They have been one of the most successful NL teams and have

1. NOT overpaid for pitchers.... I can't think of one time (albeit a bit subjective). Jeff Suppan (a career 4.90 guy) was due to make a big payday this past off-season. Despite his heroics in the NLCS and Series, the Cards offerred what they thought he was worth... he balked, and the Cards rightly (imo) said "thanks for your services, good luck to you." Suppan has an ERA of 4.62 this season for Milwaukee. Jeff Weaver? "Thanks for your dominant performance in the World Series... you want how much? Uh yeah, here's your ring, good luck to you."

They started a ROOKIE in game one of the World Series last year for crying out loud. Party due to how the rotation fell, but they are not afraid to take chances with the staff, and with young pitchers.

2. Pick up cheap pitchers that genius Pitching Coach Dave Duncan thinks he can get something out of. See Jeff Weaver last year. Woody Williams, Jason Marquis, Jason Simontacchi, Andy Benes, Matt Morris after surgery. Chris Carpenter went 10-12 and 11-11 in back to back years, one season he had an ERA of 6.26... no that is not a typo. For the Cards, he has won FIFTY ONE, with just 18 losses. Enter Mike Maroth..... we'll see.

3. Trade for good charachter guys (even guys who will become free agents) knowing they will in all likelihood, fall in love with the best baseball town in the USA, and sign with the team. See Scott Rolen, Jim Edmonds, etc.

4. Get players to sign with the "home town" discount, and keep them for less than market value. Matt Morris, David Eckstein, Marquis, Preston Wilson for only $1 million, etc.

5. Shrewd evaluation of talent. This one is tough for every team, but Walt Jocketty is one of the best. Scott Spezio was left for dead after hitting just .215 for Seattle in 2004. He's now one of the best utlity men in the NL. Recognizing Larry Walker still had some gas left in the tank.... and after playing very well for us, winning a pennant, etc. has stayed with the organization, working with young players. Like everyone else, you get some of these wrong... see Kip Wells.

LOTS of teams do these things, and more, very well.

But the Cardinals are successful WITHOUT a big payroll, and WITHOUT a loaded farm system... and very little cash laying around to break the bank with.

It's not just luck. You will never see the Cardinals spend $300 million in an off-season like the Cubs just did, never mind how the Yankees, Red Sox, and Mets operate.
Carlos Zambrano, for $15 million per year or whatever he would command... just does not fit.

When Zambrano's on, he's tremendous, but my point all along is that it's a move I do NOT see the Cardinals making.

**note, this was a long post, not a little bitty one like you prefer... so I did NOT proofread it for you. :laugh

[cosmo34]

Where oh where did I ever claim that the Cardinals should try to win in today's era, with say, the philosophy from their many, many triumphs in say, the 1940's?


As the team with the second most World Championships behind the Yankees..... the Cards philosophy works....

Right there. That implies that the Cardinals "philosophy" is the reason they've won all those championships, and nothing about whether or not is has changed over the years.


When Zambrano's on, he's tremendous, but my point all along is that it's a move I do NOT see the Cardinals making.

Once again, MY point all along is that I NEVER SAID HE WAS GOING TO THE CARDINALS. Not once.


2. Pick up cheap pitchers that genius Pitching Coach Dave Duncan thinks he can get something out of. See Jeff Weaver last year

If he fixed Weaver so well, why hasn't he continued his dominance for Seattle? And you could say the same thing about some Cards pitchers going elsewhere and fixing their mechanics there too. Isn't Marquis doing far better this year without the "Genius"?


Scott Spezio was left for dead after hitting just .215 for Seattle in 2004. He's now one of the best utlity men in the NL.

You forgot that he was the only Cardinals "pitcher" not to give up a run in that game against the A's. I don't think I have to say anything about the current state of their staff, if a utility man can do a better job than an actual pitcher.


Carlos Zambrano... just does not fit.

Hooray for your team. But for the last time. I did not, (say it with me now, d-i-d n-o-t) ever say Zambrano was going to St. Louis. I don't know why you keep trying to get the message across about how he "wouldn't fit" to me.


so I did NOT proofread it for you.

Perhaps if you would have you would have noticed that you have beaten a dead horse for the 5th or 6th time with me.

I'm only gonna say this one more time. I never said Z was going to St. Louis. Stop boring me with reasons why he would be a bad fit for your team

[StanTheMan]

Quote: from Stan The Man
As the team with the second most World Championships behind the Yankees..... the Cards philosophy works....

Quote from CosmoMan
Right there. That implies that the Cardinals "philosophy" is the reason they've won all those championships, and nothing about whether or not is has changed over the years

Are you really that naive? I'm trying to not come off as an azz here, but in all honesty, your posts (yes your REPEATED posts) and continuous responses are quite interesting. MIcormanagement to the extreme, with a healthy dose of nitpicking thrown in.

Yes, the Cardinals philosophy worked.... in the 20's and 30's. As the farm system developed, another mindset worked in the 40's. They were the big spenders in the 60's and won then as well. The 80's were a different team, all speed, defense and pitching, with little or no power.

The 90's and current Cards are a different team once again, relying trades and free agents more than ever before... yet still winning Divisions, NL Pennants, and World Series Rings.

Perhaps I should have posted the Cards philosophy works... and they used a different mindset several times over their history, as well as using different players in the 30's and in the 60's, and in the 90's.

Perhaps I should also post that the sun will rise in the East tomorrow, in case you need to know, and must have a post specifically mentioning it. :nod:



Do you think you are biased against the Cardinals success in a variety of eras, with a variety of philosophies?

Do you think you are biased against those in time zones east of you, as their day starts hours earlier than you?

[cosmo34]

Perhaps I should have posted the Cards philosophy works... and they used a different mindset several times over their history, as well as using different players in the 30's and in the 60's, and in the 90's.



Was that so hard? I thnk not. Now we're getting somewhere.


Do you think you are biased against the Cardinals success in a variety of eras, with a variety of philosophies?

Yes when they have Kip Wells on a Major League roster.

No when they have Willie McGee on a Major League roster.


Do you think you are biased against those in time zones east of you, as their day starts hours earlier than you?

Yes, I am. I'm sick of the French being ahead of me.

BTW you must be running really low on ways to make yourself feel like you are above me. Nice try though.

[StanTheMan]

Yes, I am. I'm sick of the French being ahead of me.

BTW you must be running really low on ways to make yourself feel like you are above me. Nice try though.

If all it takes is being in a time zone ahead of you.... Then I'm golden! I'm definitely not behind you. Boy, it feels good too. So important as you stated above.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Please stick to the topic at hand and stop the sniping.