Did Sammy Sosa use steroids?

[Mariano_Rivera]

Do you believe that Sammy Sosa used steroids during the '90's to help him hit 60 HR's on multiple occasions.

[SamtheBravesFan]

Quite frankly, I don't think we can ever know for certain, or how long he was using a corked bat, either, so I'm not voting. I refuse to either be cynical or pinned into a corner with anecdotal evidence that I can't disprove.

[The Cobb]

This is a yes. He almost said as much. He also said that he wouldn't apologize for it because what he and Mac did "helped baseball". As if we needed an idiot like Sosa to help the game.

[Edgartohof]

As if we needed an idiot like Sosa to help the game.


While I may not like Steroids in baseball, looking back, I can't say that I didn't thoroughly enjoy watching the Chase between Sosa and McGwire. Even you probably got into it a little didn't you? And it DID bring a lot of people back to the game.

[The Cobb]

What people? I always hear about how the game was dying and that the Sosa and McGwire labfreak drama was good for the game...but I don't understand where people get that. Not trying to be obtuse. I'm a Cards fan and all I wanted was McGwire shipped back to Oakland. I abhor steroids.

[cubsphill]

... And it DID bring a lot of people back to the game.

that it did. it got me into the game. because of sosa, i love baseball

[AMG]

Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. Unless he fails a drug test or admits it flat out, we'll never know.

[Hammerin Hank]

that it did. it got me into the game. because of sosa, i love baseball

I got into it in '96, but I began to love the game during the homerun race.

[rockin500]

I got into it in '96, but I began to love the game during the homerun race.
it certainly helped when i had gotten away from it for a coupla years. good summer for baseball, even if it wasnt legit. it was fun, and thats all i cared about (and for the most part, still care about)

[ARISTOCRAT]

Yes, if you look at him now, he is a slimmer sleaker Sosa. Remeber he came into the league with the Rangers, where Juan Gonzalez, Ivan Rodriguez, and Jose Canseco were doing roids.

[geezer]

Yes, if you look at him now, he is a slimmer sleaker Sosa. Remeber he came into the league with the Rangers, where Juan Gonzalez, Ivan Rodriguez, and Jose Canseco were doing roids.

U forgot Palmeiro tooo.

[ARISTOCRAT]

I wonder if the needles Palmeiro used were longer than the finger he pointed at Congress.

[Hammerin Hank]

it was fun, and thats all i cared about (and for the most part, still care about)

You have to. You're a Cubs fan.

[Dogdaze]

I suspect that he did, but unless he admits it, there's really no way we can know for sure. Therefore I decided not to vote.

Speaking of Sammy, he smacked his 600th career HR against the Cubs today.

I guess congratulations are in order, at least if he's innocent of doing Roids?

[Myankee4life]

To one of the greatest power hitters of all-time

Congrats, Sammy!

[SamtheBravesFan]

I suspect that he did, but unless he admits it, there's really no way we can know for sure. Therefore I decided not to vote.

Speaking of Sammy, he smacked his 600th career HR against the Cubs today.

I guess congratulations are in order, at least if he's innocent of doing Roids?

Congratulayions are in order regardless

[hiddengem]

Congratulayions are in order regardless

Same for Bonds when he passes Aaron

[bryanac625]

One thing I don't understand: people hate Barry Bonds for using steroids, yet many think Sammy Sosa used them as well, but he seems to get better treatment. Why is that?

Someone said they did not like the idea of "a steroid user" holding the most prestigious record in sports; I read somewhere else that a group is trying to put together a fund for the person who catches #756, encouraging that person to throw the ball back after it is hit. Why is Sosa treated differently?

[Mariano_Rivera]

One thing I don't understand: people hate Barry Bonds for using steroids, yet many think Sammy Sosa used them as well, but he seems to get better treatment. Why is that?

Someone said they did not like the idea of "a steroid user" holding the most prestigious record in sports; I read somewhere else that a group is trying to put together a fund for the person who catches #756, encouraging that person to throw the ball back after it is hit. Why is Sosa treated differently?

Bonds gets worse treatment than others because people actually care whether he breaks the all-time HR record or not. Nobody (except Rangers fans obviously) care about what Sosa is doing.

[Captain Cold Nose]

One thing I don't understand: people hate Barry Bonds for using steroids, yet many think Sammy Sosa used them as well, but he seems to get better treatment. Why is that?

Someone said they did not like the idea of "a steroid user" holding the most prestigious record in sports; I read somewhere else that a group is trying to put together a fund for the person who catches #756, encouraging that person to throw the ball back after it is hit. Why is Sosa treated differently?

1. Sosa isn't going after a hallowed record like Bonds is.

2. Sosa's reputation as a human being hasn't been anywhere near maligned as Bonds's rep. The one thing people say about Sosa is at least he would hide his lack of personality. He's never said things that would cause him to be accused of being a racist. The worst things he did onlly came out after he was no longer hitting 60 HRS, the corked bat incident and the walking out during a game. Sosa has detractors. You'd think Bonds has enemies.

3. It's funny, but the players who have actually been caught during testing, like Matt Lawton, etc. have hardly had as much as boo said about them. Like Morrissey sang, we hate it when our friends are successful. Nobody cares about mediocrity. But when someone reaches such a level of success, especially when there is high suspicion they had help, people will resent it. It's not you that did it, it was something else.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

1. Sosa isn't going after a hallowed record like Bonds is.

2. Sosa's reputation as a human being hasn't been anywhere near maligned as Bonds's rep. The one thing people say about Sosa is at least he would hide his lack of personality. He's never said things that would cause him to be accused of being a racist. The worst things he did onlly came out after he was no longer hitting 60 HRS, the corked bat incident and the walking out during a game. Sosa has detractors. You'd think Bonds has enemies.

3. It's funny, but the players who have actually been caught during testing, like Matt Lawton, etc. have hardly had as much as boo said about them. Like Morrissey sang, we hate it when our friends are successful. Nobody cares about mediocrity. But when someone reaches such a level of success, especially when there is high suspicion they had help, people will resent it. It's not you that did it, it was something else.


Thats just the way it is. Nobody cares about the so so pitchers who were highly suspect.... throwing " wet ones". The only guys we hear about are Perry and Ford.

[Erik Bedard]

cubsphill said it, Sosa got me into the game. I was six years old, living in Massachusetts, and I didn't care all that much about major league baseball (I loved the game, just didn't follow it). Then I saw in a newspaper that a guy named Sammy Sosa and another guy named Mark McGwire were about to break the record for home runs. My brother said he wanted McGwire to win, because his name was Mark (coincidentally, my brother's name). So, naturally, I said that Sosa was better. Sosa became my favorite player for that summer, and that's why I like him so much.

As for steroids, I've gone into this way too many times, and I just don't feel like it right now.

[bryanac625]

1. Sosa isn't going after a hallowed record like Bonds is.

2. Sosa's reputation as a human being hasn't been anywhere near maligned as Bonds's rep. The one thing people say about Sosa is at least he would hide his lack of personality. He's never said things that would cause him to be accused of being a racist. The worst things he did onlly came out after he was no longer hitting 60 HRS, the corked bat incident and the walking out during a game. Sosa has detractors. You'd think Bonds has enemies.

3. It's funny, but the players who have actually been caught during testing, like Matt Lawton, etc. have hardly had as much as boo said about them. Like Morrissey sang, we hate it when our friends are successful. Nobody cares about mediocrity. But when someone reaches such a level of success, especially when there is high suspicion they had help, people will resent it. It's not you that did it, it was something else.

I wonder then, if Bonds' steroid use is just a scapegoat for other reasons why people don't like him. I'm no fan of him either, especially if he made racist remarks. But I wonder, if everything was the same about him but no steroids, andro, cream, HGH or whatever, would he still be as hated as he is.

I heard a woman say she wouldn't have a problem with steroids if it would help the Cubs win the World Series. I'm sure others feel this way about their team or their player winning the MVP, a batting title or stats for their fantasy team.

[Captain Cold Nose]

I wonder then, if Bonds' steroid use is just a scapegoat for other reasons why people don't like him. I'm no fan of him either, especially if he made racist remarks. But I wonder, if everything was the same about him but no steroids, andro, cream, HGH or whatever, would he still be as hated as he is.

I heard a woman say she wouldn't have a problem with steroids if it would help the Cubs win the World Series. I'm sure others feel this way about their team or their player winning the MVP, a batting title or stats for their fantasy team.

It well might be. The thing is, a lot of writers did not like Bonds well before steroids became an issue in baseball. Hal McCoy of the Dayton Daily News, who has received the HOF's Spinks Award for writing excellence, was always writing about how little he thought about Bonds, and would always point it out when he was less than genial in handling a question from the media. And Mccoy was hardly the only one. Sure, he won a few MVPs, but his reputation for being a big jerk was already in place. The implication he was achieving what he did through artificial (cheating) methods has made him become easier fodder than somebody who was previously adored or even not noticed.

If Rafael Palmeiro, who was greatly respected, did not issue denials before testing positive or push the reason to another player, he would be applauded for his guts, like Giambi is in some circles. Bonds already had strikes against him before all of this ever went down. Outside of Albert Belle, I can't think of another player from that era with a worse public perception.

[Dogdaze]

Congratulayions are in order regardless

Why would you congratulate someone for cheating?

[bryanac625]

Why would you congratulate someone for cheating?

You mean like they just congratulated Sammy Sosa for hitting .600? The man who supposedly used steroids and got caught red-handed with a corked bat? Why is his cheating OK but Bonds's is not? People make it sound as if Barry Bonds is on steroids right now, that every homer he's hit, that every single thing the man has ever done has been under the influence of performance-enhancing drugs, and that the man is the personification of evil.

[Dogdaze]

You mean like they just congratulated Sammy Sosa for hitting .600? The man who supposedly used steroids and got caught red-handed with a corked bat? Why is his cheating OK but Bonds's is not? People make it sound as if Barry Bonds is on steroids right now, that every homer he's hit, that every single thing the man has ever done has been under the influence of performance-enhancing drugs, and that the man is the personification of evil.

I should have said why congratulate someone if they were a proven cheater. I did not vote in this poll because I don't know id Sosa used Roids or not.

I don't know for sure if either of Sosa or Bonds cheated, I suspect they may have, but until it's proven guilty I'll congratulate both Sosa and Bonds.

Both are naturally talented and would have done extremely well anyway.

But if ever proven that they did cheat, then I personally won't congratulate either one. I dispise cheaters!

[bryanac625]

WE don't know for sure if either of these guys cheated, I suspect they may have, but until it's proven I'll congratulate both Sosa and Bonds. Thus I did not vote in this poll.

Both are naturally talented and would have done extremely well anyway.

But if ever proven that they did cheat, then I personally won't congratulate either one. I dispise cheaters!

There are a lot more forms of cheating in baseball besides steroids. Gaylord Perry was well known for throwing illegal pitches, yet he is celebrated. "The Giants Won the Pennant! The Giants Won the Pennant!" but it has been speculated that they used a telescope from the outfield clubhouse to steal the catcher's signs (this might explain how they went from 13 1/2 games back to winning the pennant, all in only 53 days). And many have used corked bats. I recall that the Ken Burns Baseball series defined the sport as "a game which tolerates cheating." I just think there is a lot of disparity in how we tolerate the cheaters.

[Dogdaze]

There are a lot more forms of cheating in baseball besides steroids. Gaylord Perry was well known for throwing illegal pitches, yet he is celebrated. "The Giants Won the Pennant! The Giants Won the Pennant!" but it has been speculated that they used a telescope from the outfield clubhouse to steal the catcher's signs (this might explain how they went from 13 1/2 games back to winning the pennant, all in only 53 days). And many have used corked bats. I recall that the Ken Burns Baseball series defined the sport as "a game which tolerates cheating." I just think there is a lot of disparity in how we tolerate the cheaters.

I agree, I personally don't like cheaters in any form. And I suspect many others that cheated, using steroids such as McGwire and Clemens, also naturally gifted athletes.

[Ohplayer]

Why would you congratulate someone for cheating?

:confused: I don't get it either. I have no repsect for Bonds or Sosa. Sosa was booed by the crowd each time he batted at GABP this past week. It was great!

[hiddengem]

But if ever proven that they did cheat, then I personally won't congratulate either one. I dispise cheaters!


Then why do you watch the game? Players have been cheating since the 50's and probably before.

[Dogdaze]

Then why do you watch the game? Players have been cheating since the 50's and probably before.

Because I enjoy the game. I know some have cheated, but many have not. I'd prefer that nobody cheats.

Do you like watching players cheat?

[hiddengem]

Because I enjoy the game. I know some have cheated, but many have not. I'd prefer that nobody cheats.

Do you like watching players cheat?

I don't know what your deffinintion is of cheating. But I play everday with guys that have cheated in some form or another.

[slugger33]

Do you believe that Sammy Sosa used steroids during the '90's to help him hit 60 HR's on multiple occasions.
Who cares dang it.

[rockin500]

i watch baseball for two main reasons: to be entertained and to hope my team wins. Sammy did the first part really well for a period of 8 years (when at his peak) and did his best to help the second part (too bad the rest of the team stunk outside of him for the most part)

in the end, sports is about entertainment. Its competition, but its also in the entertainment business.

[holyroman]

I was always annoyed by Corky's little hop when ever he got a hold of one.
Still it take a lot of skill and longevity to hit 600 homers. At least he said in fromt of the congressional commitee that he never took steroids and didn't plead the 5th ammendment. Of course Raffy denied using them too. So.. who knows. But getting caught using a corked bat pretty much ruins his credability. :shrug:

[Hammerin Hank]

You know they x-rayed about pretty much every one of Sammy's bats available that was used in a game by him after the incident and found that none of them were corked. I doubt he hit a significant amount of homeruns using a corked bat, if any at all.

[metfan13]

Yes I think he used steroids. He's a cheat, I hope he never makes the HoF.

[SamtheBravesFan]

Yes I think he used steroids. He's a cheat, I hope he never makes the HoF.

Well, aren't we all high and mighty. ;P

[metfan13]

Well, aren't we all high and mighty. ;P


How so? Isn't this just a poll asking for an opinion?

[Erik Bedard]

Wow, 21 people agree with me. I must have convinced some people.

[Dogdaze]

Yes I think he used steroids. He's a cheat, I hope he never makes the HoF.

Well, Dale Murphy agree with you. He did a radio interview back in February where he was asked about Sosa. In fact Dale believes Bonds and McGwire cheated as well.

Holden Kushner: One guy that’s trying to make a comeback right now, Sammy Sosa; do you think Sammy Sosa used performance enhancing drugs?

Dale Murphy: Yeah I think so.
Here is a link to the interview:

http://www.startribune.com/blogs/christensen/?p=22

[Dogdaze]

By the way, Dale Murphy has a program he started called "I won't cheat"

Here is a link:

http://www.iwontcheat.com/

[SamtheBravesFan]

By the way, Dale Murphy has a program he started called "I won't cheat"

Here is a link:

http://www.iwontcheat.com/

Well, that's good, and I hope it works. To stop a problem like this is to nip it in the bud.

[SamtheBravesFan]

Why would you congratulate someone for cheating?

There is no proof that he cheated besides the corked bat. He could have been using a corked bat in order to try to break out of that slump, or it could have been longer. But how long? We don't know. So I'm just going to give him the benefit of the doubt and say that he was trying to get out of the slump.

[SamtheBravesFan]

How so? Isn't this just a poll asking for an opinion?

Yep, and I was just poking a little fun at that. I happen to believe that he didn't take steroids because I have no proof; people say he does beacause of the guilt by association and the 60-homer seasons. If it comes out that he did take PEDs, I will gladly say I was wrong. But I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt and say, no, he didn't. Isn't it enough that I believe that McGwire and Bonds took them?

[Dogdaze]

There is no proof that he cheated besides the corked bat. He could have been using a corked bat in order to try to break out of that slump, or it could have been longer. But how long? We don't know. So I'm just going to give him the benefit of the doubt and say that he was trying to get out of the slump.

While I suspect he juiced, I agree that there is no absolute proof. And until there is I congratulate Sammy for a great accomplisment of 600 HR's.

But if he did cheat using steroids, then I stand by what I wrote earlier and will not congratulate him.

[SamtheBravesFan]

While I suspect he juiced, I agree that there is no absolute proof. And until there is I congratulate Sammy for a great accomplisment of 600 HR's.

But if he did cheat using steroids, then I stand by what I wrote earlier and will not congratulate him.

Exactly. I agree completely. There is pretty solid evidence with Bonds and some with McGwire, but there really isn't any hard evdience with Sosa; it's truly all circumstancial.

[tommybaseball]

While I may not like Steroids in baseball, looking back, I can't say that I didn't thoroughly enjoy watching the Chase between Sosa and McGwire. Even you probably got into it a little didn't you? And it DID bring a lot of people back to the game.

Yeah, but now we know a lot more, don't we? And we know why they hit all those homeruns. Fools gold!

[tommybaseball]

that it did. it got me into the game. because of sosa, i love baseball

It's great that you love baseball. I love baseball too. It's a great game. Your statement however says that you might like to see Major Leaguers use metal bats. Then you could stare, open jawed when someone launches one out of Yankee Stadium, over the #4 subway train tracks and through the window of Stans Baseball Land and say, "Wow, he really hit the piss out of that one!" "Mantle never hit one like that!"

I'm reminded of this line from Jack Nicholson, delivered to Chief Bromden in "One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest when Nicholson finds out that The Chief was not really deaf and dumb after all:

"You fooled them Chief! You fooled them all!"

They sure fooled us didn't they? And many of us remain dumb to the fools gold that was thrown in our eyes.

[tommybaseball]

While I suspect he juiced, I agree that there is no absolute proof. And until there is I congratulate Sammy for a great accomplisment of 600 HR's.

But if he did cheat using steroids, then I stand by what I wrote earlier and will not congratulate him.

What do you call absolute proof? A positive test result? I know that we're discussing Sosa here but is that what you need to figure out that someone like Bonds, who had his most productive homerun years after the age of 35, cheated?
There was also no absolute truth that the 1919 Black Sox threw the World Series. And if there was, it got "lost" in court.

At the time, newly elected Commissioner Kenesaw "Mountain" Landis didn't need "absolute proof" to ban those eight players because he used absolute common sense. He also had something else that Bumblin' Bud Selig does not have: a sack.

[Skin & Bones]

What do you call absolute proof? A positive test result? I know that we're discussing Sosa here but is that what you need to figure out that someone like Bonds, who had his most productive homerun years after the age of 35, cheated?
There was also no absolute truth that the 1919 Black Sox threw the World Series. And if there was, it got "lost" in court.

At the time, newly elected Commissioner Kenesaw "Mountain" Landis didn't need "absolute proof" to ban those eight players because he used absolute common sense. He also had something else that Bumblin' Bud Selig does not have: a sack.

So I guess if you don't have your most productive years after 35, you didn't cheat?

[SamtheBravesFan]

Yeah, but now we know a lot more, don't we? And we know why they hit all those homeruns. Fools gold!

You're a true cynic if you believe the only reason that people hit a "lot" of home runs now is because they "cheat". What's your home run line for suspicion? I'd love to know that. If it's 50, I've got a great counter example.

I pity you.

[nolanryan5714]

Please, keep it nice, guys.

[SamtheBravesFan]

Please, keep it nice, guys.

That comment really rubbed me the wrong way, to be honest. I'm just sick of that opinion. It's almost a cliche now.

[nolanryan5714]

That comment really rubbed me the wrong way, to be honest. I'm just sick of that opinion. It's almost a cliche now.

It was intended to keep things CIVIL.

No slight intended. NONE.

Post away.... :)

[SHOELESSJOE3]

So I guess if you don't have your most productive years after 35, you didn't cheat?

Don't take it personal but that makes litttle sense. You may cheat and still not be that productive after age 35.Lets drop that word productive thats putting it mildly. Barry went off the chart after age 35 not just for one season but maintained that level over 3 or 4 seasons. Never in the history of the game has any hitter took off like Barry did after age 35, not for 4 seasons.

I think what the poster meant in post #51 was that eyebrows were raised whan Barry exploded after age 35. The word is exploded. Does that mean that Barry used steroids, not positively but he became highly suspect.

When a hitter after age 35 puts up a 3 to 4 year peak after age 35 that rivals any peak put up by Babe Ruth and Ted Williams when they were in their twenties, in their prime how could anyone not wonder.

[metfan13]

So I guess if you don't have your most productive years after 35, you didn't cheat?

No, but the over 35 part is just additional evidence.

[metfan13]

You're a true cynic if you believe the only reason that people hit a "lot" of home runs now is because they "cheat". What's your home run line for suspicion? I'd love to know that. If it's 50, I've got a great counter example.

I pity you.

It's hard not to be cynical about what happened the past 10-15 years.

Very convenient for baseball after screwing the fans with the cancelled World Series, to win them back with homerun chaes, no matter how they were created. It worked though, attendance went up and fans came back. Just shows there are enough people out there who just want entertainment and aren't concerned with the history of the game.

[Dogdaze]

What do you call absolute proof? A positive test result?

Yes, a postive test would be absolute proof. A witness would also be a form of proof, maybe not absolute, but it would add credence.

When I say I suspect a player such as Sosa was a juicer, that means I believe he more then likely cheated. But until there is absolute proof, I'll allow for a possibility that maybe he achieved naturally.

Your from NY, are you a Yankees fan?

Do you think Giambi should be banned?

How about Clemens and Pettit who were accused of cheating by former teammate Jason Grimsley?

Or would you allow for the possibility that Grimsley was not telling the truth?

Back in the days of Jackson, they didn't have a players union and while I agree Selig should be tougher, without absolute proof, he'd never get away with banning players like Sosa just because of suspicion.

[Skin & Bones]

Don't take it personal but that makes litttle sense. You may cheat and still not be that productive after age 35.Lets drop that word productive thats putting it mildly. Barry went off the chart after age 35 not just for one season but maintained that level over 3 or 4 seasons. Never in the history of the game has any hitter took off like Barry did after age 35, not for 4 seasons.

I think what the poster meant in post #51 was that eyebrows were raised whan Barry exploded after age 35. The word is exploded. Does that mean that Barry used steroids, not positively but he became highly suspect.

When a hitter after age 35 puts up a 3 to 4 year peak after age 35 that rivals any peak put up by Babe Ruth and Ted Williams when they were in their twenties, in their prime how could anyone not wonder.

Actually, my post made perfect sense, considering the context in which it was used. Barry should not be the set standard for an obvious steroid user. Most steroid users start using early in their careers, and their "peak years" during their late 20's is usually their major roid years. Barry's case is different because at the end of a HOF career, he decided to roid up as an old man because he was jealous of other roiders.

If it wasn't for Palmerio's positive test, he would have sailed into the HOF with no problem with very little suspiscion of steroid use just because he didn't have his best seasons after the age of 35. He juiced earlier, so it made it seem like he had a "natural" career with no late career spikes.

The truth of the matter is, if Barry's late career success is the standard for obvious steroid abuse, then everyone but Barry didn't roid up. Either that, or Barry is the dumbest of them all by not cheating earlier, so his career arc didn't look so unnatural. Take your pick.

[Back-to-Back-to-Back]

Roger Clemens = HOF
Randy Johnson = HOF
Barry Bonds = HOF :applaud:
Greg Maddux = HOF :applaud:
Frank Thomas = HOF :applaud:
Ken Griffey = HOF :applaud:
Tom Glavine = HOF :applaud:
John Smoltz = HOF :applaud:
Chipper Jones = HOF :applaud:
Derek Jeter = HOF :applaud:
Sammy Sosa? = Steroids :grouchy


Why? :dismay:

[Mattingly]

You're a true cynic if you believe the only reason that people hit a "lot" of home runs now is because they "cheat". What's your home run line for suspicion? I'd love to know that. If it's 50, I've got a great counter example.

I pity you.
Hitting a HR is a combination of many things to me. Great hand-eye co-ordination can be one thing. Having a great hitting coach is another. Feeling comfortable at the plate and overall relaxed is another. Having a great BP session.

In addition to those, there's also how deep the stadium is, and whether or not the ball is "juiced" (that part, I'm not fully knowledgeable about). Tigers Stadium was deeper than Comerica is and the "Death Valley" in Yankee Stadium was deeper than the current OF in the Bronx.

Anyway, I just came to post this cartoon, which I thought was cute and would fit here, so this is it:

http://www.nydailynews.com/img/2007/06/24/gallo24.gif

[Mattingly]

Yes, a postive test would be absolute proof. A witness would also be a form of proof, maybe not absolute, but it would add credence.

When I say I suspect a player such as Sosa was a juicer, that means I believe he more then likely cheated. But until there is absolute proof, I'll allow for a possibility that maybe he achieved naturally.

Your from NY, are you a Yankees fan?

Do you think Giambi should be banned?

How about Clemens and Pettit who were accused of cheating by former teammate Jason Grimsley?

Or would you allow for the possibility that Grimsley was not telling the truth?

Back in the days of Jackson, they didn't have a players union and while I agree Selig should be tougher, without absolute proof, he'd never get away with banning players like Sosa just because of suspicion.
I think that the whole premise of "absolute proof" isn't very easy to get. The reason why I say this is because most of the "designer drugs" that these guys are taking would be more costly than a company President or CEO making $500,000/yr could afford, in that they are undetectable. That and their overall effectiveness explain the cost.

In order to detect them, you'd need a method of detecting them. Be it the testosterone level or whatever other methods used, if there's nothing available right now, unless the IOC has something to detect those, you could have Sen Mitchell, Selig and Fehr as witness during the urine or blood test, and you may still not have proof that the person used PEDs if said PEDs could not be detected.

For Sammy Sosa (http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/sosasa01.shtml), even though he was 29 at the time, from 1997-98, his stats ballooned at a very high level. Going from batting .251, .780 OPS (.480 SLG), 36 HR, 119 RBI to .308 BA, 1.024 OPS (.647 SLG), 66 HR, 158 RBI in a single season, I think that's quite a bit of a stretch to believe w/o any artificial help.

Sosa had hit 40 jacks only once (1996) and 36 twice (1995, 1997), then hits 60+ twice (1998-99), followed by 50 (2000), followed by another 60+ and two 40+ seasons. To me, that's somewhat unnatural to believe. He could've used some strength and conditioning coaching, but the whole thing seems a bit unusual to have such great gains in such a short time period. I can see goign from 35 to 45 HRs and adding another .075 or .100 to one's SLG, but he'd turned from a slugger to a beast and maintained his assault on the baseball for several years.

If you compare that to someone like Manny Ramirez, he's always put up big numbers for several years, didn't all of a sudden put up huge numbers over a certain time period. I guess that's why he goes under the radar.

As to Giambi, do I think he should be banned? I doubt it, unless he's stupid enough to admit to Sen Mitchell that he'd in fact used any steroids. I doubt that Giambi would do this, as Selig may be encouraged to suspend him or try voiding his contract (there'd be a huge fight from the Player's Union, you can be sure of this).

For Clemens and Pettitte, I'd say that if Tejada, who was accused by Palmeiro of using, gets the benefit of the doubt, that these two should also. I haven't seen any change in size from either one over the years and I've seen quite a bit of Andy Pettitte over the years. He's always been a big Texan at 6'5", and so is the adopted Texan, Clemens (he's from Dayton, OH).

Clemens has been the most focus of PED usage, since he's still pitching relatively well at age 44. Despite not pitching many innings while with the 'Stros, he'd kept a low ERA when many pitchers had already retired 5 years younger. Meanwhile, lesser pitchers like Felix Heredia and Guillermo Mota are the ones who've been caught. How does one explain that? :)

[rockin500]

Sosa had hit 40 jacks only once (1996) and 36 twice (1995, 1997), then hits 60+ twice (1998-99), followed by 50 (2000), followed by another 60+ and two 40+ seasons. To me, that's somewhat unnatural to believe. He could've used some strength and conditioning coaching, but the whole thing seems a bit unusual to have such great gains in such a short time period. I can see goign from 35 to 45 HRs and adding another .075 or .100 to one's SLG, but he'd turned from a slugger to a beast and maintained his assault on the baseball for several years.


in 1996, there was a legitimate possibility of him getting 50 homers as he was injured after 124 games and missed the rest of the season at 40 homers.

[SamtheBravesFan]

It's hard not to be cynical about what happened the past 10-15 years.

Very convenient for baseball after screwing the fans with the cancelled World Series, to win them back with homerun chaes, no matter how they were created. It worked though, attendance went up and fans came back. Just shows there are enough people out there who just want entertainment and aren't concerned with the history of the game.

You sound like one of my other friends who was convinced baseball was fixed like pro wrestling when the Boston Red Sox and Chicago White Sox won the World Series in consecutive years.

Like it or not, baseball has had a history of "cheating" in some form or another. That doesn't excuse it, but there are probably a lot more "tainted" records or players' seasons than you'd think.

[Skin & Bones]

I think that the whole premise of "absolute proof" isn't very easy to get. The reason why I say this is because most of the "designer drugs" that these guys are taking would be more costly than a company President or CEO making $500,000/yr could afford, in that they are undetectable. That and their overall effectiveness explain the cost.

In order to detect them, you'd need a method of detecting them. Be it the testosterone level or whatever other methods used, if there's nothing available right now, unless the IOC has something to detect those, you could have Sen Mitchell, Selig and Fehr as witness during the urine or blood test, and you may still not have proof that the person used PEDs if said PEDs could not be detected.

For Sammy Sosa (http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/sosasa01.shtml), even though he was 29 at the time, from 1997-98, his stats ballooned at a very high level. Going from batting .251, .780 OPS (.480 SLG), 36 HR, 119 RBI to .308 BA, 1.024 OPS (.647 SLG), 66 HR, 158 RBI in a single season, I think that's quite a bit of a stretch to believe w/o any artificial help.

Sosa had hit 40 jacks only once (1996) and 36 twice (1995, 1997), then hits 60+ twice (1998-99), followed by 50 (2000), followed by another 60+ and two 40+ seasons. To me, that's somewhat unnatural to believe. He could've used some strength and conditioning coaching, but the whole thing seems a bit unusual to have such great gains in such a short time period. I can see goign from 35 to 45 HRs and adding another .075 or .100 to one's SLG, but he'd turned from a slugger to a beast and maintained his assault on the baseball for several years.

If you compare that to someone like Manny Ramirez, he's always put up big numbers for several years, didn't all of a sudden put up huge numbers over a certain time period. I guess that's why he goes under the radar.

As to Giambi, do I think he should be banned? I doubt it, unless he's stupid enough to admit to Sen Mitchell that he'd in fact used any steroids. I doubt that Giambi would do this, as Selig may be encouraged to suspend him or try voiding his contract (there'd be a huge fight from the Player's Union, you can be sure of this).

For Clemens and Pettitte, I'd say that if Tejada, who was accused by Palmeiro of using, gets the benefit of the doubt, that these two should also. I haven't seen any change in size from either one over the years and I've seen quite a bit of Andy Pettitte over the years. He's always been a big Texan at 6'5", and so is the adopted Texan, Clemens (he's from Dayton, OH).

Clemens has been the most focus of PED usage, since he's still pitching relatively well at age 44. Despite not pitching many innings while with the 'Stros, he'd kept a low ERA when many pitchers had already retired 5 years younger. Meanwhile, lesser pitchers like Felix Heredia and Guillermo Mota are the ones who've been caught. How does one explain that? :)



Palmerio never accused Tejada of roiding, he said that the B-12 shot he gave him caused the positive test. Or something like that. As to Clemens, he's linked to the scandal because his personal strength coach allegedly dealt steroids to Grimsley and Segui. Not to mention his late career success ( No, it wasn't nearly as high as Bonds, but it was late career success nevertheless). Clemens currently boasts the two single season highest ERA+ for a pitcher 34 and older, and from the age of 34 through now, he has posted an ERA+ of 143, despite facing roided up batters. Maybe it's all natural, but many, including myself, don't believe it is. But I still give him the benefit of the doubt, unlike you don't with Sosa.

[SamtheBravesFan]

Palmerio never accused Tejada of roiding, he said that the B-12 shot he gave him caused the positive test. Or something like that. As to Clemens, he's linked to the scandal because his personal strength coach allegedly dealt steroids to Grimsley and Segui. Not to mention his late career success ( No, it wasn't nearly as high as Bonds, but it was late career success nevertheless). Clemens currently boasts the two single season highest ERA+ for a pitcher 34 and older, and from the age of 34 through now, he has posted an ERA+ of 143, despite facing roided up batters. Maybe it's all natural, but many, including myself, don't believe it is. But I still give him the benefit of the doubt, unlike you don't with Sosa.

Hell, that right there says there's more solid evidence that Clemens took steroids than Sosa. But I still give him the benefit of the doubt too.

[Back-to-Back-to-Back]

Firsts 9 Seasons (1989-1997)
150+ Games: 3 ('90-'93-'97)
-125 Games: 5 ('89-'91-'92-'94-'96)

207 HR
206 SB
655 RBI

Power/Speed Number
1990 AL-20.4-4
1993 NL-34.4-2
1994 NL-23.4-3
1995 NL-35.0-1
1996 NL-24.8-10
1997 NL-27.3-6

At Bats per Home Run
1993 NL-18.1-10
1994 NL-17.0-9
1995 NL-15.7-6
1996 NL-12.5-3
1997 NL-17.8-10

Total Bases
1993 NL-290-9
1994 NL-232-10
1995 NL-282-8
1996 NL-281
1997 NL-308-10

Home Runs
1993 NL-33-9
1994 NL-25-9
1995 NL-36-2
1996 NL-40-5
1997 NL-36-7

RBI
1990 AL-70 (64 games batting 1st, 30 Batting 8th)
1993 NL-93
1994 NL-70 (105 games, first half 50)
1995 NL-119-2
1995 NL-100
1997 NL-119-6

HR-SB
1993 33-36
1994 25-22 (105 Games, first half 19-16)
1995 36-34


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