If you still think think Jeter is overrated...

[RubeBaker]

Sorry, I just think the idea of calling Derek Jeter overrated is just ridiculous. I know this got a lot of discussion in the overrated players thread, but I thought it was interesting enough to warrant further discussion.

This June, Derek will be turing 33. In April of 1973, Pete Rose also turned 33. Both had 12 full seasons under their belts, lets compare how the two stacked in career stats up by the end of the year in which Rose turned 33 (well, we'll get the final tally for Jeter in October):

Rose: .308 BA/.375 OBP/2237 hits


Jeter: .318 BA/.390 OBP/2241 hits (and counting)


I rest my case.

[iPod]

Heh, I think Pete Rose is overrated too. In all seriousness, Jeter is a great player, a HoF caliber one, but his defense is overrated, I have little doubt of that.

[Old Sweater]

Overrating is overrated.

[natsnsoxfan]

I don't think a single person said he was overrated offensively. We all know hes an excellent offensive player but a lot of people have this misconceived notion that he is an amazing defender, which anyone with half a brain knows hes not, hes an average defender at best and is below average normally. He has very poor range going to his glove side, and isn't a whole lot better going to his throwing side, which is part of the reason you see him making these "amazing" plays in the whole, because his below average range forces him to. I'm not going to deny that hes irritatingly good with a bat in his hand but I've seen people try to make an arguement that hes the best player in baseball.

And then theres things like this that really just make me want to break things......


Several years back when Nomar Garciapara, Alex Rodriquez, and Derek Jeter all played shortstop. How the pundits and fans took sides on who was the best shortstop of the three. Some ranted over Rodriquez, others shouted for Garciapara, but those with great baseball knowledge and acumen had Jeter on top of the heap.

Well, here it is now those several years later, and only one of the three has any World Series rings, only one of the three has had outstanding success in post season play, only one of the three still plays shortstop. And today only one of the three is the best shortstop in the game, if not the best player in the game.

All hail Derek Jeter, the true champion in character, integrity, leadership, and playing baseball for why the game is played, helping his team WIN.

PS: Please come back joek, this forum is dead without you and your vast baseball knowledge.

That is a post from another board that i visit on occasion and you know there are tons more people that think of Jeter like that. That is precisely why hes overrated.

[Westlake]

Yup, Pete Rose is pretty overrated as well.

[J W]

I don't necessarily think Pete Rose is overrated now... it's debatable as to whether or not he belonged on the All-Century Team and that's about where he ended up in the voting if I recall correctly.

I HAVE heard/read Jeter's offense being called into question. I think it's kind of ridiculous. Through 13 seasons, Jeter reminds me a lot compared w/ his environment of 2B Larry Doyle... who belongs in the HOF IMO. Doyle went to a number of World Series but didn't enjoy the success of Jeter. I don't think Jeter is going to stop there though -- he's 33 and not slowing down much, and after a couple more seasons of 150+ hits we'll be discussing 3000 hits with him just like we are now with Craig Biggio.

Defensively, I think the argument is old now and we all know he doesn't have good range. He has consistently been better than average in fielding %, which is likely a more important stat for a SS than any other position... though you could make the claim it's only the case because he has less chances to commit them. I don't make that claim as I don't think there's much correlation.

Bottom line, Jeter does what he needs to do considering the team he plays on, and his offense more than makes up for it considering his position. The Yankees have been able to field incredible offenses by having Jeter and Posada fill two vital holes in the lineup, and purchasing their 1B/OF power.

Because so many people say that he is, I say that Jeter is NOT overrated and that between the two camps he's about where he should be. He will finish with a better career than Garciaparra (who despite the difference in range I don't believe was much better defensively) and may beat out A-Rod by default if people start thinking of the latter as a 3B.

[Brooklyn]

Sorry, I just think the idea of calling Derek Jeter overrated is just ridiculous. I know this got a lot of discussion in the overrated players thread, but I thought it was interesting enough to warrant further discussion.

This June, Derek will be turing 33. In April of 1973, Pete Rose also turned 33. Both had 12 full seasons under their belts, lets compare how the two stacked in career stats up by the end of the year in which Rose turned 33 (well, we'll get the final tally for Jeter in October):

Rose: .308 BA/.375 OBP/2237 hits


Jeter: .318 BA/.390 OBP/2241 hits (and counting)


I rest my case.


Again, you are missing what overrated means.

Overrated doesn't mean he isn't good. I think we can all agree that he is good. Overrated means he isn't as good as he is generally given credit for.

He is a very good offensive player, particularly for a middle infielder. He is an average (at best) defensive short stop. He plays the game hard and runs everything out. He is not a particularly clutch player (I'm not saying he is un-clutch, either, just middle of the road).

The reason I think he is overrated is because I hear his name on New York talk radio (and ESPN for that matter) and they talk about his as the best thing since sliced bread. For example, last week one of the local hosts was running through great players that put their team over the top. The tree they mentioned in recent years (in their respective sports) were Michael Jordan, Tom Brady and Derek Jeter. You have to be kidding me if you think Jeter is in the same class as those two.

Jeter is also frequently thought of by not serious fans as the best player in the game, the same way Rose or Nolan Ryan might have been thought of by non-serious fans. He is, of course, not the best player in the game, nor the best player on his team. It is this perception that leads me to say he is overrated.

Again, by saying his is overrated, I'm not saying he isn't good, nor am I saying he isn't having a fantastic career. I am saying that he is not as good as the amount of press he gets.

[Blackout]

jeter is not over-rated

he's just not under-rated

[sanket]

I think Derek Jeter is underrated. He's a terrible defender, I'll admit that. But, he's amazing with the bat, he's amazing on the bases, he can do just about everything in baseball except for pitching and fielding. He can hit homeruns, he can hit for extra bases, he can get hits at will, he can bunt, he can steal, he can run, and he can draw walks too. I always notice how Jeter always seems to get the clutch hit. If you actually watch one of his games (a close game) you'll notice that unlike a lot of players, he's there to get the big hit when the Yankees need it the most. Derek Jeter is one of the most underrated clutch players in the game today, I put him right there with David Ortiz.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Thats the problem with playing for the Yanks and in N.Y. No matter what some are to be thought of as being overrated, going back to Joe Dimaggio.

In some cases a valid point but the real problem is who decides where earned merit ends and overrating begins.

How much is Jeter overrated if thats the case. Is he not as good as some Yank fans believe him to be.

Is he better than those that believe him to be overrated think he is.

The answer is most likely in the middle.

[Mariano_Rivera]

I think Derek Jeter is underrated. He's a terrible defender, I'll admit that. But, he's amazing with the bat, he's amazing on the bases, he can do just about everything in baseball except for pitching and fielding. He can hit homeruns, he can hit for extra bases, he can get hits at will, he can bunt, he can steal, he can run, and he can draw walks too. I always notice how Jeter always seems to get the clutch hit. If you actually watch one of his games (a close game) you'll notice that unlike a lot of players, he's there to get the big hit when the Yankees need it the most. Derek Jeter is one of the most underrated clutch players in the game today, I put him right there with David Ortiz.

What A-Rod isn't in that category of clutch hitters yet? :D

People think that Jeter is an excellent fielder though including my grandfather and brother who watch every game

[hellborn]

I think that the Jeter-Rose comparison is an excellent one.
Both very good offensive players with high OBPs but not a lot of power, good at hitting 2Bs and going the other way. Neither very fast, but good baserunners who always hustled. They both stayed off the DL and piled up a lot of hits per year. Jeter is the better defender, but the defensive play of both was more heads up and high effort than brilliant. Neither had a rocket arm, but had enough to get the job done. They both had personal qualities that attracted the attention and admiration of fans...Pete was intense and 100% committed to baseball, Derek is dedicated but also very cool and in control. Pete was loved as a regular guy who achieved fame, while Jeter is something of a boundary crosser in associating with celebrities and straddling the black/white cultural divide.
Pete was probably the best player on his team after Frank Robinson was traded, but the team didn't achieve postseason success until even better players like Bench and Morgan came along and a powerhouse team developed. Jeter may have been the best player on the late '90s powerhouse Yanks teams (guess either him or Bernie), but the team has actually not performed as well since superstar players have been added in an attempt to sustain the dynasty.
Both guys got the most out of their talents and you knew that they were always going to show up and give you their best game. Pete pretty much wore his emotions on his sleeve, while Derek is more reserved and PC, but both men were willing to face the cameras and be the public face of their team. I guess that Jeter is nowhere near the physical force that Rose was...Pete loved to slide and tag hard, act intimidating, and fight. Jeter is nothing like that, but he shares Rose's willingness to sacrifice his body.
It remains to be seen if Jeter will suffer a huge fall from grace like Rose and be demonized in the public eye...it's hard to imagine, but it sure seemed like Pete was going to be Mr. Baseball for years to come, didn't it?

[Ubiquitous]

Pete Rose's 12th season was 1974. He had 2337 hits, a .309/.376 line against a league that had this line: .260/.325.

Jeter has done what he did in a league that hit .271/.339. It is actually slightly lower then that if you throw in 2007.

What made Pete Rose so special wasn't his first 12 seasons. It was the fact that he played for 12 more seasons after that (until the age of 45) and was able to stay productive in his old age. Pete at 38 put up a .331/.418.

This kind of comparison is like comparing Babe Ruth's first 4 seasons homer totals to some player todays total and saying he compares favorably to Babe Ruth. Doing that is missing what makes these players so great.

Derek Jeter is a great playe who looks to be having a second peak in his post 30's career. Good for him, but he isn't the greatest player today nor in the top 5.

[ChrisLDuncan]

Well for those of you that say that Jeter's D is overrated...two things. Last night there was only one ball that a great defensive short stop should get to that he didn't and that's a ball that took a bounce off the bag, it happens and that screws a lot of guys up. It wouldn't screw up Ozzie Smith, but not many people say that he's better than Ozzie with the glove.


Right now Derek Jeter is at +7 by FRAA, here is what the other starting defensive short stops are at:


Yunieski Betancourt: -10
Jose Reyes: +3
Adam Everett: +9 (don't even bring up his name in gold gloves, just because Jeter won a few and he hasn't isn't overrating Jeter it's overrating Vizquel, different leagues)
Omar Vizquel: +8
Orlando Cabrera: +10
Rafeal Furcal: +4
Julio Lugo: -1
Troy Tulowitzki: +9
Stephen Drew: +3
Bobby Crosby: -2
Mike Young: +7
Khalil Green: +4
J.J. Hardy: -8
Cesar Izturis: -3
David Eckstein: -8
Jack Wilson: +5
Alex Gonzalez: -4
Edgar Renteria: -2
Jimmy Rollins: -1
Hanley Ramirez: -5
Royce Clayton: -5
Johnny Peralta: +5
Brendan Harris: -4
Carlos Guillen: -7
Juan Uribe: -2
Jason Bartlett: -5
Tony Pena: +8

[Brooklyn]

Well for those of you that say that Jeter's D is overrated...two things. Last night there was only one ball that a great defensive short stop should get to that he didn't and that's a ball that took a bounce off the bag, it happens and that screws a lot of guys up. It wouldn't screw up Ozzie Smith, but not many people say that he's better than Ozzie with the glove.



Jeter should have gotten to Reyes' single up the middle in the 4th inning (the first Mets hit of the game). He many not have thrown out the speedy Reyes anyway, but he should have gotten to that ball.

There was another ball later in the game that went between Jeter and A-Rod. I couldn't tell from the camera angle if someone should have had it, but it looked like they were playing weird positioning, so I wouldn't fault Jeter for that one (I might also be talking about Saturday's game, they all blend together).

Going through the box score, Jeter fielded 3 ground balls cleanly the entire game, meaning he got 75% of the balls he should have. Are you saying that is good?

Of course this is only one game, but he also missed a single by Wright up the middle on Saturday. I have no idea how FRAA works, but every time I watch Jeter play I'm more and more convinced that he just doesn't get to enough ground balls.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Sorry, I just think the idea of calling Derek Jeter overrated is just ridiculous. I know this got a lot of discussion in the overrated players thread, but I thought it was interesting enough to warrant further discussion.

This June, Derek will be turing 33. In April of 1973, Pete Rose also turned 33. Both had 12 full seasons under their belts, lets compare how the two stacked in career stats up by the end of the year in which Rose turned 33 (well, we'll get the final tally for Jeter in October):

Rose: .308 BA/.375 OBP/2237 hits


Jeter: .318 BA/.390 OBP/2241 hits (and counting)

I rest my case.

A-Rod is 13 months younger than Jeter has just 96 fewer hits than Jeter. I'll go out in a limb and say A-Rod ends up with more career hits than Jeter.

[Wade8813]

Just about every player ever is both overrated and underrated. That's what people do - they rate players, and will often be way off in their ratings.

To compare Jeter to Michael Jordan is ridiculous. But I've also heard people rank him too low (often as a backlash against those that overrate him).

[ChrisLDuncan]

Jeter should have gotten to Reyes' single up the middle in the 4th inning (the first Mets hit of the game). He many not have thrown out the speedy Reyes anyway, but he should have gotten to that ball.

There was another ball later in the game that went between Jeter and A-Rod. I couldn't tell from the camera angle if someone should have had it, but it looked like they were playing weird positioning, so I wouldn't fault Jeter for that one (I might also be talking about Saturday's game, they all blend together).

Going through the box score, Jeter fielded 3 ground balls cleanly the entire game, meaning he got 75% of the balls he should have. Are you saying that is good?

Of course this is only one game, but he also missed a single by Wright up the middle on Saturday. I have no idea how FRAA works, but every time I watch Jeter play I'm more and more convinced that he just doesn't get to enough ground balls.

Well the Reyes single up the middle he's not throwing Reyes out, no one is throwing him out. The ball that bounced off the bag, I don't think anyone could have gotten to that. Unless you're playing a shift and you're just barely on the OF grass, but in a "normal" position I don't think so.

[dl4060]

And then theres things like this that really just make me want to break things......




That is a post from another board that i visit on occasion and you know there are tons more people that think of Jeter like that. That is precisely why hes overrated.


Many thanks for that post. The post you quote sums up exactly why there is a Jeter backlash. Yes many people underrate him, but many others(like the original poster) overrate him absurdly. We are tired of hearing inane answers like "well he has four rings Arod has none" or "he was able to stay at short, Arod was not." Derek Jeter is a great player on his merits, he does not need to be one of the five greatest of his era to be a first ballot hall of famer.

As I(and many others) have said before, part of the problem is that the Yankees have a huge fan base, a fan base which looks at Jeter almost as a Moses or Jesus figure who has led them back to the promised land. He also plays in front of more writers than anyone else, who weave subjective yarns about his exploits. Many Jeter supporters who say he is the best in the game laugh at us heretics, and expound about why his greatness cannot be quantified by numbers. Jeter does not need such hyperbole, he is great enough as it is. Jeter is probably the first Yankee in a long time to be looked at like DiMaggio or Mantle, as an all-time Yankee great. He is not in the same league as Mick or Joe D, but he is certainly a wonderful player.

I am not a Pete Rose fan, Jeter's position on the hit list does not change my opinion of him in any way.

[nerfan]

Derek Jeter is the third best hitter on the Yankees behind Posada and A-Rod. He's not close to A-Rod, but he is to Posada.

Posada/Jeter comparison

Awards
4 Silver Sluggers / 1 Silver Slugger
Once Top-5 MVP Voting / Twice Top-5 MVP Voting
Four Time All-Star / Seven Time All-Star

Rate Stats
25 HR per 162 / 17 HR per 162
98 RBI per 162 / 83 RBI per 162
.202 ISO / .154 ISO
86 Walks per 162 / 68 Walks per 162

PLUS Posada plays a more difficult position. Who would you choose for the Hall of Fame?

(Of course, Posada is two years older than Jeter and has 2500 less at-bats, but, hey, the stats speak for themselves!)

[bigtime39]

If they were playing where they should be playing (Pay-Rod at short, Jeter at either 2B or CF) this would be a whole lot easier to figure out.
Jeter took a long climb down in my eyes when he refused to make way for a better defensive player at SS when Pay-Rod arrived.
Jeter is a hustling player with range limitations (please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it's worse to the glove side). His defense is overrated. His offense isn't.
His god status however, is off the charts overrated.

[The Cobb]

You must be one of these Yankees fans I keep hearing about. No one calls him overrated. We're just sick and tired of hearing about him. It's bad enough that we're forced to watch 60 Yankee games a year on ESPN. We also have to listen to Yankee's fans go on and on and on about their team.

Little tip. The only people that care about New York is New York. Did you know there's baseball in Kansas City?

[bigtime39]

You must be one of these Yankees fans I keep hearing about. No one calls him overrated. We're just sick and tired of hearing about him. It's bad enough that we're forced to watch 60 Yankee games a year on ESPN. We also have to listen to Yankee's fans go on and on and on about their team.

Little tip. The only people that care about New York is New York. Did you know there's baseball in Kansas City?

You mean that place the Yankee$ raped repeatedly when the Athletics were there, owned by the former owner of the Yankee$ AAA farm team, which was exactly how the Yankee$ regarded them? That Kansas City?

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Many thanks for that post. The post you quote sums up exactly why there is a Jeter backlash. Yes many people underrate him, but many others(like the original poster) overrate him absurdly. .

Those that underrate Jeter are just as bad as those who overrate him.
Does that make any sense, since some overrate him I'll even things up by underrating him. They are actually saying I'm not being honest I know he's better than that but I won't admit the truth.

I can understand "some" Yankee fans overrating him even though thats not the correct thing, they are wrong but they are fans biased like MANY other fans about their home players.

But for another to diminish Jeter or anyone they think overrated just to counter those who overrate is even more foolish.

[The Cobb]

No. Kansas City, Russia.

[yankeesfan8926]

You must be one of these Yankees fans I keep hearing about. No one calls him overrated. We're just sick and tired of hearing about him. It's bad enough that we're forced to watch 60 Yankee games a year on ESPN. We also have to listen to Yankee's fans go on and on and on about their team.

Little tip. The only people that care about New York is New York. Did you know there's baseball in Kansas City?

I don't know what part of the country you live in, but here in Connecticut, there's no more than 15 Yankee games on ESPN per year, most of them are vs. the Red Sox, and the rest are seen on YES.

[The Cobb]

There have been almost 15 games on ESPN so far this year and it's only June.

[CubNZ]

I'm not sure you can be underrated when you take home $21,600,000 of George's money. That kind of cash can get you some very productive guys.

Derek Jeter is a consistently very good player who achieved icon status because he was lucky enough to become a regular just as the most popular team in the game started to win. However he is the second best on the team at his defensive position and hasn't won a ring for 7 seasons now. So he probably deserves his offensive reputation but is overated as a defender and a "winner".

[dl4060]

Those that underrate Jeter are just as bad as those who overrate him.
Does that make any sense, since some overrate him I'll even things up by underrating him. They are actually saying I'm not being honest I know he's better than that but I won't admit the truth.

I can understand "some" Yankee fans overrating him even though thats not the correct thing, they are wrong but they are fans biased like MANY other fans about their home players.

But for another to diminish Jeter or anyone they think overrated just to counter those who overrate is even more foolish.

I don't think either is right. I certainly did not imply that it is all right to underrate him specifically to counterbalance things. My point was that while there are some people who underrate him, he is still overrated by most of the country, the national media, the New York media, and many of his fans. Most players have have supporters and detractors, I don't know of anyone who uderrates Jeter to balance things out. The segment of Jeter's fan base which tries to argue that he is better than Arod is more delusional than the fan base for any player I can think of. In general, Jeter gets far more overrating then underrating, as evidenced by his being named the face of baseball. He has not been one of the five best players of his era, but he is probably the most recognized player out there. As I said before, the original post quoted by natsnsoxfan was a perfect example of what we are sick of. Neither I nor anyone I know underrates him on purpose. We are simply sick of being inundated by praise for every little thing he does.

Bill James has a great passage in one of the abstracts from the early 80's. I was not quite old enough to read it at the time, but I read it years later. The subject was the media's fascination with Pete Rose. To paraphrase, late in the 1983 world series the camera focused on Rose. Rose was doing nothing of note, standing at his position. His team was losing. Each announcer then went off on a little tangent on why Pete Rose was so great, and what made him special. James' point to the media was to shut up already. Don't keep pouring this garbage down our throat. Jeter is the same way, we have to hear about him over and over, even when he does nothing. We are sick of hearing about how special he is. Every routine play he makes we hear some idiot announcer blather on about Derek Jeter. When he loses an MVP race some of his supporters act as if he was head and shoulders above the league, when in fact he was simply one of many deserving candidates. He is a great player, a first ballot type, but he is not one of the all-time greats. He is not a landmark player in the history of baseball, at this point in his career.

[Brooklyn]

Well the Reyes single up the middle he's not throwing Reyes out, no one is throwing him out. The ball that bounced off the bag, I don't think anyone could have gotten to that. Unless you're playing a shift and you're just barely on the OF grass, but in a "normal" position I don't think so.

So you are saying that there was no need to get to the ball because he wouldn't have thrown him out anyway? What if LoDuca had hit it? Would Jeter have miraculously gotten more range because it was a slow runner? The point is that there are a lot of balls he doesn't get to that other shortstops do. In that particular instance it might not have mattered. But in a different instance, the same ball getting through could be a big difference. But Jeter doesn't look bad because he his jumps are so late that he looks like he just misses it, when in reality he should have gotten to it.

[Seattle1]

Sorry, I just think the idea of calling Derek Jeter overrated is just ridiculous.


I know, calling Derek Jeter "overrated" is sort of akin to calling Nolan Ryan "overrated."

Both perenial all-stars, both first-ballot Hall of Fame shoe-ins. Gimmie a break.

[Westlake]

There have been almost 15 games on ESPN so far this year and it's only June.

Yet according to their schedule there are only 2 ESPN games left. I think yankeefan was just a little closer than you were.

[hellborn]

If they were playing where they should be playing (Pay-Rod at short, Jeter at either 2B or CF) this would be a whole lot easier to figure out.
Jeter took a long climb down in my eyes when he refused to make way for a better defensive player at SS when Pay-Rod arrived.
Jeter is a hustling player with range limitations (please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it's worse to the glove side). His defense is overrated. His offense isn't.
His god status however, is off the charts overrated.

To be fair to Jeter, I don't think that the Yanks ever approached him about changing positions. ARod was approached after Aaron Boone got hurt in the offseason, and the Yanks made it clear in the media that they were looking for a 3B to replace Boone. I obviously don't know what has been going on behind the scenes, but ARod came to the Yanks as a 3B. Jeter pretty clearly wouldn't be a good guy to play 3B...the more I know about Cano, the more I wonder if he might be a good 3B, while Jeter seems like he could be a good 2B. Probably will never happen, but it's a fun fantasy league type discussion.

To me, the big thing with Jeter is overexposure. There is just so much coverage of the guy that casual nonfans are going to tend to assume that he's the best player around, like how many people who did not follow tennis assumed that Anna Kournikova was a dominating player, or nongolfers think that Michele Wie is the best female on the links, or Gretzky was treated as the best player in the game well after it wasn't true anymore. Beckham also comes to mind.
I'd love to see Jeter at SS for the Bosox right now, and he's an easy HOFer with any approaching a normal career progression. I don't see him as the best player in baseball at any point of his career.

[bigtime39]

It's hard to be the "best player in baseball" when you're not even the best SS on your own team...