Most overrated player in MLB?

[Mission27]

Who do you think is the most overrated player in the MLB?

I haven't thought about this much yet, so ill give my opinion later on

[slugger33]

David Wright

[john1972]

Alfonso Sorryano..oops..Soriano!

[Mission27]

Soriano overrated?......

[Francoeurstein]

Derek Jeter

or

Barry Bonds, because they think he can hit 30 homers a season but hes 40+..

[Mission27]

Derek Jeter ovverated? NOW ive heard it all

Thru his career his season average has been
.317 BA, .389 OBP, .463 SLG, .852 OPS, 208 H!!!, 34 2B, 83 RBI, 24 SB

In the playoffs hes hitting .314, 17 homers, 48 RBIs and has reached base 105 of 119 games.. MLB record for playoff hits at 150

and hes one of the most clutch players in MLB history

[ARISTOCRAT]

Pat Burrell, based on his contract.
Roger Clemens at this point in his career is also overrated.

[Mission27]

Clemens, last year, at 44 years old

113 IP, 89 H, 34 R, 29 BB, 102 K, 7-6 (no run support), 2.30 ERA... overrated?

[Dalkowski110]

Roger Clemens.

[oaklandman666]

Jason Grilli. No, Pat Burrell.

[ARISTOCRAT]

A year older and he is not in the National League this year. With his already fatigued groin being a problem before he pitched this season, I saw that as foreshadowing for future issues with Clemens. I guess he isn't a very good example considering he hasn't had an official let down as of yet, I just personally don't feel he is going to be any kind of savior.

[EdmondsFan#1]

Derek Jeter's defense.

and

Jose Reyes.

[Mission27]

Im thinking either Pierre or Zito, altho Burrell is a good choice

[Mission27]

Jose Reyes, is that a joke?


and Jeter's D? He's got the last 3 AL Gold Gloves and a career .974 fielding %

[oaklandman666]

No, the Jason Grilli reference was a joke...

[EdmondsFan#1]

Jose Reyes, is that a joke?

No, his park adjusted OPS+ is 99. Also, his defense is Very over-rated, IMO. He has a great arm though. And contrary to popular belief, being a good player isn't all about hitting! His only real good year was last year, and now everyone is all over him. He doesn't draw many walks at all either, except for this year. And (excluding this year) he doesn't hit for an incredible BA and doesn't drive in that many runs. He gets alot of hits, and XBH, and he's fast. Thats all I really see in him. And part of the reason he gets so many XBH and hits is because he's fast...

He's a great player but people think he is much better then he is. He's no better then Hanley Ramirez but rarely do people talk about Hanley... Especially compared to Reyes.


I think Jose is over-rated probably because he is playing for a great, popular team. Just like (most) Yankee Players are over-rated.

[Mission27]

How many RBI's do you want from a lead off guy and he's also the most dangerous player in baseball once he's on base? And obviously he did nothing till last year, it was his breakout year and hes like, what, 23?

Basically, this year and last year don't count, even tho they were the first times he was 'on the map' and ppl knew who he was and he was playing great baseball... interesting

[EdmondsFan#1]

and Jeter's D? He's got the last 3 AL Gold Gloves and a career .974 fielding %

Yeah, Jeter's D.

In my opinion, he's no better then an average defensive shortstop. But he has a great arm.

And, IMO, if his defense wasn't so over-rated he would'nt have those 3 GGs.

[Mission27]

.974 Fielding % is pretty good

He has great range, a great arm... there's prolly 5-7 times a season that im disappointed in something that Jeter did on defense lol

[EdmondsFan#1]

How many RBI's do you want from a lead off guy and he's also the most dangerous player in baseball once he's on base? And obviously he did nothing till last year, it was his breakout year and hes like, what, 23?

Basically, this year and last year don't count, even tho they were the first times he was 'on the map' and ppl knew who he was and he was playing great baseball... interesting

Good point about the RBI's I don't know what I was thinking.

And when you say he's "the most dangerous guy in baseball when he's on base" I'm sure that some other players could be just as or more dangerous on the basepath but some teams don't like to steal as much as others.

[Mission27]

If the Mets wanted Reyes to steal 120 bases this year, he could and would, maybe even more

[EdmondsFan#1]

If the Mets wanted Reyes to steal 120 bases this year, he could and would, maybe even more

And he would have quite a few CS's too.

Even though 64 SB's last year he still had 17 CS's and Jose Reyes' carrer SB% is 76.1% ... That's not bad but Ichiro has a SB% of 76.2%, basically equal. So if Ichiro wanted to steal 120 bases this year he probably could and probably would. It's not like Jose is the only guy that can do it.

And Ichiro is just one example, I'm sure I could find more but Ichiro was just a fast guy I just thought of off the top of my head.

Since we both seem pretty stubborn about this and I don't think either of us will sway each other's opinion I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree..

[ChrisLDuncan]

Yeah, Jeter's D.

In my opinion, he's no better then an average defensive shortstop. But he has a great arm.

And, IMO, if his defense wasn't so over-rated he would'nt have those 3 GGs.

Well he may have three undeserved gold gloves, but there were two years where he was the best player in baseball and didn't win the MVP...I'll go easy on you and call that a push. However, I agree that Reyes is overrated too, but overrated does not mean a bad player. Reyes' steal totals get him a lot of press because he's exciting, but that still doesn't mean best player. I just don't think Reyes is as good as Hanley. But right now I'd say that Jim Edmonds, Juan Pierre, Andruw Jones, and Barry Zito are the most overrated players. If Sizemore keeps getting all this press I'll add him to this list too. Some make an agrument for Ichiro...but I don't buy it.

[slugger33]

I agree with Reyes as number 2, but number one goes to Wright as I said earlier.
A number of the Mets are over rated.

[catbox_9]

No mention of Justin Verlander? It seems that up until a few days ago everyone said he was way overrated.

[slugger33]

No mention of Justin Verlander? It seems that up until a few days ago everyone said he was way overrated.
I did, and I'm a Tigers' fan.

[scootermojo]

living in pittsburgh and considering the coverage of this player gets and the occasional national media stating him being underappreciatted....jason bay.

i like him and i'm sure his stats would be better if he actually had some players around him but the more and more i watch him play i think he's not what a lot of people and sportswriters around here make him out to be. strikes out WAY too much and is an average fielder at best.

[natsnsoxfan]

Jeter. Anyone who watches him play defense knows he is no better than average and that Alex Gonzalez was more deserving of the Gold Glove last year by miles.

".974 Fielding % is pretty good

He has great range, a great arm... there's prolly 5-7 times a season that im disappointed in something that Jeter did on defense lol"

Are you kidding me? Great Range? Half the balls he has to jump and throw off his back foot Ozzie Smith, Alex Gonzalez, Yunieski Betancourt, or Omar Vizquel would all get there, plant, and make a good throw to get the runner by a few steps. 5-7 times, huh? I can guarantee its a whole lot more than that since hes averaged about 17 errors a year over his career, not counting '95 because he played in only 15 games, and is on pace for over 20 errors this season. Don't even think about bringing up him falling into the stands in 2004 because that was incredibly over dramatized. Was it a nice play? Yeah, but that was effort not range and another example of a ball that any actual Gold Glove quality SS would have gotten to and not messed up their face going after.

[catbox_9]

I did, and I'm a Tigers' fan.

If I remember correctly, you prefer Bonderman over Verlander. I think Bonderman is pretty good, but I've always like Verlander better. They're similar in age but Bonderman has yet to have a really great season. He's gotten better ERA wise 4 straight years (and he's on pace to do it again) but he's yet to live up to what I think he's capable of. He's never won 15 games (not a super meaningful stat especially given the teams he's played for, but last year he should have been able to and didn't). He struck out over 200 last year which was good and something Verlander is going to need to improve upon a bit (along with his BBs). Given all that, I still wouldn've taken Verlander even before Tuesday.

Last year was his first year and he won 17 games - 3 more than Bonderman has ever won. He posted a better ERA than Bonderman and it was only his first year. I think they're both great right now but I think Verlander is a little better. What's also exciting is that both of them are very young so barring injury they should only continue to get better. It's fun being a Tigers fan for the first time in a long time.

[slugger33]

If I remember correctly, you prefer Bonderman over Verlander. I think Bonderman is pretty good, but I've always like Verlander better. They're similar in age but Bonderman has yet to have a really great season. He's gotten better ERA wise 4 straight years (and he's on pace to do it again) but he's yet to live up to what I think he's capable of. He's never won 15 games (not a super meaningful stat especially given the teams he's played for, but last year he should have been able to and didn't). He struck out over 200 last year which was good and something Verlander is going to need to improve upon a bit (along with his BBs). Given all that, I still wouldn've taken Verlander even before Tuesday.

Last year was his first year and he won 17 games - 3 more than Bonderman has ever won. He posted a better ERA than Bonderman and it was only his first year. I think they're both great right now but I think Verlander is a little better. What's also exciting is that both of them are very young so barring injury they should only continue to get better. It's fun being a Tigers fan for the first time in a long time.
Yes I prefer Bonderman over Verlander. Last year I thought Verlander was over rated. This year I am beginning to change my mind.

[lampshade333]

def barry bonds! :homeplate:

[Mission27]

I didn't say anything about him falling into the stands cause it has nothing to do with any of this. And he still makes those plays doesnt he? Im not gonna get into this cause youre clearly just a yankee hater lol

[RubeBaker]

Alfonso Soriano. Everyone looks at his homerun totals, and ignores the fact that he's a poor defensive player and his lifetime OBP is a weak .321.

[natsnsoxfan]

I didn't say anything about him falling into the stands cause it has nothing to do with any of this. And he still makes those plays doesnt he? Im not gonna get into this cause youre clearly just a yankee hater lol

Just thought you should know that your view of Jeters defense is highly overrated and he is undeserving of all those GG's.

[Future:Greatest2BofAll-Time]

Scott Rolen is overrated. People still talk about how he's one of the best and he isn't.

And Roger Clemens is overrated and overhyped.

[natsnsoxfan]

Scott Rolen is overrated. People still talk about how he's one of the best and he isn't.

Offensively, yes. Defensively, no. And just for the record I almost never hear anyone refer to his as one of the best anymore.

[Future:Greatest2BofAll-Time]

Offensively, yes. Defensively, no. And just for the record I almost never hear anyone refer to his as one of the best anymore.

People on ESPN still say he's one of the best at 3rd.

[digglahhh]

Look, Jeter is above average in the hole and the worst in the league up the middle. The Hardball Times has him as the worst defensive shortstop in the league this year (he did get off to very bad start so that may be true now, but he's not that bad). He's probably a little better than average, especially in the AL.

Offensively, he is very good, but not great. The clutch thing is a myth, he converts RBI chances at the same clip as Scott Spezio. The playoff accolades are part and parcel of playing for a dynasty in the era of expanded playoffs, no rocket science there.

He's a very good hitter on his own merits, great in relation to being a middle infielder. He is a slightly above average defensive player. He is fast and athletic. He is charismatic and a motivator. He is incredibly savvy and has great instincts. He also has a very good eye at the plate, drawing a lot of walks for a guy who is not a huge power threat.

Derek Jeter is a legitimately great player, but never once was he among, say, the five best players in the game. He is polarizing. He is one of the most overrated players by his ardent supporters. He is one of the most underrated players by his detractors. He is a first ballot HOFer, regardless.

Mets fans will see this soon enough with David Wright. He is getting the overrated reputation, and that is somewhat deserved. But, he is very similar to Jeter, in character, marketability and being that "man about town." Soon there will be a strong Wright backlash, and he will become underrated, the same way Jeter does.

As far as the most overrated player in the game, my choice is Alfonso Soriano.

[natsnsoxfan]

You might be hearing it out of context because they still talk about how amazing he is defensively, which he still is, but rarely talk about his offense unless its negatively from what I see and hear.

[natsnsoxfan]

Derek Jeter is a legitimately great player, but never once was he among, say, the five best players in the game. He is polarizing. He is one of the most overrated players by his ardent supporters. He is one of the most underrated players by his detractors. He is a first ballot HOFer, regardless.

Lets leave it at that.

Just to get off the topic of Jeter I will give my 2nd most overrated player. David Eckstein, he gets so much praise for being underrated that it makes him overrated in my mind, kind of a circular way of thinking but thats just my thought.

[digglahhh]

I will give my 2nd most overrated player. David Eckstein, he gets so much praise for being underrated that it makes him overrated in my mind, kind of a circular way of thinking but thats just my thought.

Yes. Absolutely! Any of the firejoemorgan whipping boys go without saying.

[538280]

never once was he among, say, the five best players in the game.

I don't know that I agree. It's hard to say he wasn't last year. He was probably the best or 2nd best player in the AL last year. He was absolutely better than undeserving MVP Justin Morneau. Jeter isn't a very good defensive SS, but he still brings more defensive value than any defensive 1B. And offensively he was actually better IMO than Morneau. Jeter had a 138 OPS+ compared to Morneau's 140, but Jeter also stole 34 bases at an awesome 87%. His competitior was Joe Mauer, who was a very good defensive player at catcher and a little better hitter than Jeter, but not nearly the baserunner and had over a hundred less PA, even though part of that can be no doubt attributed to the toughness of playing catcher everyday.

I would say that Jeter is a great, great player, one of the best in the game today at his position, and a first ballot HOFer. However it's hard for me to say he isn't a little overrated. I agree with Diggs that he's one of the most underrated by his most ardent detractors, but he DOES get probably more media attention than any baseball player today, gets a ton of credit from ESPN "analysts" and the like for the clutch stuff, and has been named the "face of baseball" a few times I believe. I think he is underrated with some, and he's an awesome, awesome player, but like I said it's hard for me to say he's not at least a little overrated, with the total consensus opinion.

My most overrated player today has a lot of candidates, I don't know that I could single out one but there are quite a few guys who deserve a mention. Soriano is certainly up there. So is Ichiro. David Ortiz, as much as I like him, is extremely overrated especially where I live. Justin Morneau's winning the MVP last year was one of the worst choices of all time. Carlos Lee is nothing more than a so-so hitter who has some power, is put in the middle of orders, and can drive in 100 runs a year in this offensive environment, he's nothing special at all, his career high OPS+ is 125, that for a player being paid like he's one of the game's primier sluggers. Michael Young is NOT part of a new "SS offensive revolution" (which BTW doesn't even really exist, it's a context illusion and one player, A-Rod), he's a league average hitter whose one strength happens to be BA and isn't even good defensively.

For underrated players, I'd choose Miguel Cabrera, Brian Roberts, and most of all Carlos Guillen.

[scootermojo]

And Roger Clemens is overrated and overhyped.

i would agree that he is overhyped but overrated?

38-18, 505 k's, 2.44 era since 2004 seems pretty impressive to me.

[538280]

Lets leave it at that.

Just to get off the topic of Jeter I will give my 2nd most overrated player. David Eckstein, he gets so much praise for being underrated that it makes him overrated in my mind, kind of a circular way of thinking but thats just my thought.

I agree on this too, though I think everyone still realizes he's not really a star caliber player. Every game he plays in it's a guarantee that at some point the announcers will start gushing over his "grit". The thing about the gushing over Eckstein is that it's clear (at least to me) that most of it has to do with race. They would never talk about him even close to how they do if he was the same but black. In fact, all the guys who they praise for having "grit" are almost always white, and so are the "glue" guys and all that. White players are great because they're students of the game, black players are just great because they're natural gifted. Shows that the way people perceive things is still often driven by race IMO, and it's not right.

[scootermojo]

I agree on this too, though I think everyone still realizes he's not really a star caliber player. Every game he plays in it's a guarantee that at some point the announcers will start gushing over his "grit". The thing about the gushing over Eckstein is that it's clear (at least to me) that most of it has to do with race. They would never talk about him even close to how they do if he was the same but black. In fact, all the guys who they praise for having "grit" are almost always white, and so are the "glue" guys and all that. White players are great because they're students of the game, black players are just great because they're natural gifted. Shows that the way people perceive things is still often driven by race IMO, and it's not right.

i wouldn't say you are wrong but i don't understand how that's really a problem...it's not like they are saying something negative about black/white players..it's just being descriptive of their respective playing ability from afar and being descriptive in a flattering way. i think you may be looking for a spark in something that's not and never was lit.

i personally don't infere that when someone calls someone scrappy or gritty as being a student of the game and i don't personally infere that all black or non-white athletes are naturally gifted...cecil fielder???? he was about as smooth and graceful as a sack of dirt rolling down a jagged cliff...jim edmonds...using your analogy one could say he was a black man trapped in a white man's body for how smooth his swing is/was and how graceful he is/was in the field.

[ChrisLDuncan]

Jeter. Anyone who watches him play defense knows he is no better than average and that Alex Gonzalez was more deserving of the Gold Glove last year by miles.

".974 Fielding % is pretty good

He has great range, a great arm... there's prolly 5-7 times a season that im disappointed in something that Jeter did on defense lol"

Are you kidding me? Great Range? Half the balls he has to jump and throw off his back foot Ozzie Smith, Alex Gonzalez, Yunieski Betancourt, or Omar Vizquel would all get there, plant, and make a good throw to get the runner by a few steps. 5-7 times, huh? I can guarantee its a whole lot more than that since hes averaged about 17 errors a year over his career, not counting '95 because he played in only 15 games, and is on pace for over 20 errors this season. Don't even think about bringing up him falling into the stands in 2004 because that was incredibly over dramatized. Was it a nice play? Yeah, but that was effort not range and another example of a ball that any actual Gold Glove quality SS would have gotten to and not messed up their face going after.



Vizquel isn't what he used to be defensively. The one thing I hate about "on pace" is that Jeter got a rough start so I would say he makes less than 20 errors this season...however errors are pretty meaningless if you ask me to an extent As to Alex Gonzalez being better than him last season? FRAA has Jeter at +7 FRAA and Gonzalez at -5 last season...Jeter wins. As to Betancourt he is at -10 FRAA, I'm not saying that's the end all be all...but Jeter I would say is about a B- defender...and with his offense from Short that's a great player. He is the face of baseball, the most popular player in the game but that doesn't meant that he is the best. IMO he deserved the MVP in 2006 and 1999. The fact that people bring him up as the most overrated in the game IMO means he is the most UNDERRATED in the game. A book you may want to check out is The Stark Truth (yes I know that he only covers players from about 1960 on, but he does get Jimmy Wynn there :thumbsup: ) Jayson Stark covers the Jeter thing pretty well...I couldn't have put it better myself.



The thing about Derek Jeter is that he doesn't just "Happen to be a Yankee" He is the heart and soul fo that Yankee team and he has been for all of the dynasty...with out him I don't think they win for chips in the 90s...and for those of you that think his clutch hitting is a myth???? I suggest you speak with any manager or GM in the game.

[ChrisLDuncan]

My most overrated player today has a lot of candidates, I don't know that I could single out one but there are quite a few guys who deserve a mention. Soriano is certainly up there. So is Ichiro. David Ortiz, as much as I like him, is extremely overrated especially where I live. Justin Morneau's winning the MVP last year was one of the worst choices of all time. Carlos Lee is nothing more than a so-so hitter who has some power, is put in the middle of orders, and can drive in 100 runs a year in this offensive environment, he's nothing special at all, his career high OPS+ is 125, that for a player being paid like he's one of the game's primier sluggers. Michael Young is NOT part of a new "SS offensive revolution" (which BTW doesn't even really exist, it's a context illusion and one player, A-Rod), he's a league average hitter whose one strength happens to be BA and isn't even good defensively.

For underrated players, I'd choose Miguel Cabrera, Brian Roberts, and most of all Carlos Guillen.

I agree with you on a few of those things, with maybe the execption of Ichiro...he's a very good player, but I don't think anyone thinks he's top five or ten in the game. As to Carlos Lee, anyone who knocks in that many runs with Fantasy Baseball as big as it is will be a bit overrated. Also I would say that Miguel Cabrera is MUCH more underrated than Guillen...I would also add Jeremey Bonderman, Joe Nathan, Trevor Hoffman, and Jake Peavy (probably not after this season) to that list.

[538280]

i wouldn't say you are wrong but i don't understand how that's really a problem...it's not like they are saying something negative about black/white players..it's just being descriptive of their respective playing ability from afar and being descriptive in a flattering way. i think you may be looking for a spark in something that's not and never was lit.

i personally don't infere that when someone calls someone scrappy or gritty as being a student of the game and i don't personally infere that all black or non-white athletes are naturally gifted...cecil fielder???? he was about as smooth and graceful as a sack of dirt rolling down a jagged cliff...jim edmonds...using your analogy one could say he was a black man trapped in a white man's body for how smooth his swing is/was and how graceful he is/was in the field.


I'm not saying that white athletes are actually better or that black athletes are actually better, I'm just annoyed that when players get praised for being "gritty" or "students of the game", in my observation, they're almost always white. Black players never get the same credit for being dedicated or working hard or being determined. That's just in my observation.

But the whole idea of "grit" and determination having any factor in a player's value to his team is untrue anyway, whatever determination he has makes up his actual performance, so it doesn't really matter, it's just that I realize that people perceive white athletes in different ways than black athletes, and I don't think that's right. Black athletes, though, have had more success, person for person, and that's a fact (10 of the top 20 players based on WS since integration are black or hispanic; yet since integration blacks/hispanics have only made up about a quarter to a third of the overall number of players), but still I think that all players should be viewed the same no matter their race.

[RubeBaker]

What was wrong with Morneau as MVP?

[ChrisLDuncan]

What was wrong with Morneau as MVP?

Jeter deserved it more, as did Johan Santana and Joe Mauer.

[Zito75]

Barry Bonds and Barry Zito are both overrated... But not as much as Roger Clemens. He's a drama queen to boot.

[ChrisLDuncan]

To those of you who say Bonds is overrated I give you this:


.491 OBP

[Knick9]

Clemens
Jeter (when fielding)
Crisp (when batting)
Pierre
Soriano

In that order.

[redlegsfan21]

This may be the Reds fan in me but Gary Majewski is vastly overrated, even if you rate him as the worst player in the majors, he's overrated.

In real life, I consider Barry Zito as the most overrated. I don't know if I would want Zito on the Reds but would LOVE to have Roger Clemens on the Reds. To all those who say that Clemens is overrated, I sure if you had the chance, I would want Roger on your team.

[Charger567]

I really don't think Jeter deserved it more than Morneau.

And there is no way Bonds is overrated.. He is IMO the greatest all-around player in the history of the game.

[Zito75]

I used to think that Bonds was UNDERRATED. Now that it's an established fact that he's a cheater, and that fact that there is too much emphasis on HRs makes him OVERRATED.

[Mission27]

About the black/white gritty thing.. there arent very many black players in the game anymore to begin with so how you expect there to be very many black players that are gritty or w/e

Jeter.. How can a first ballot HOF'er be overrated? The worst SS in the league up the middle, that's not even a legitimate comment cause that's just absurd.. How is Jeter's clutch hitting a myth? He's got more postseason hits then anyone in the history of the game, and without him there's no way that the Yankees win those 4 championships. Like someone already said, ask any manager or GM in the game... and he IS the face of baseball how can you even deny that? He's the gatorade/jordan guy lol.. He was never one of the top 5 players in the game? How about last year, for starters? If you think he didn't deserve the AL MVP last year you're smokin somethin.

[digglahhh]

About the black/white gritty thing.. there arent very many black players in the game anymore to begin with so how you expect there to be very many black players that are gritty or w/e

Jeter.. How can a first ballot HOF'er be overrated? The worst SS in the league up the middle, that's not even a legitimate comment cause that's just absurd.. How is Jeter's clutch hitting a myth? He's got more postseason hits then anyone in the history of the game, and without him there's no way that the Yankees win those 4 championships. Like someone already said, ask any manager or GM in the game... and he IS the face of baseball how can you even deny that? He's the gatorade/jordan guy lol.. He was never one of the top 5 players in the game? How about last year, for starters? If you think he didn't deserve the AL MVP last year you're smokin somethin.

Well, I may be smoking something, but that's about the only true statement in this post.

His range up the middle is awful. That is an empirical fact.

Name me, specifically, a SS with less glove side range. Don't give me my statement is wrong because it is wrong.

Yes, he has tons of postseason hits. He's also atop the leaderboard for post season games, and postseason at bats. Jeter has been very good in the postseason, as good as he has been in the regular season, but you can't just cite his hit totals without acknowledging that divisional play didn't begin until 1969 or that his career has has been played on a dynasty and began at the time of the introduction of the wild card.

I personally did not think Jeter deserved the MVP last year. I would have voted for Morneau. I think the MVP is a combination of what you do and how you do it. Morneau just had so many big hits for the Twinkies down the stretch.

Here's the beginning of a list of players who, at least arguably had a better season that Jeter last year: Pujols, Howard, Mauer, Sizemore, Berkman, Miguel Cabrera, Beltran, Reyes, Hafner, Ortiz, Utley, Morneau...

How can a first ballot HOFer be overrated? Ask the people who voted for Nolan Ryan as the greatest pitcher ever.

And as far as asking a GM about Jeter's clutch abilities, just make that GM isn't Billy Beane or any of the other newer generation GMs who are not beholden the empirically disproven romanticisms invented and peddled by the media for their own interests.

[ChrisLDuncan]

I really don't think Jeter deserved it more than Morneau.

And there is no way Bonds is overrated.. He is IMO the greatest all-around player in the history of the game.

Well you're wrong on the first one...but since this is baseball you're batting .500 that's pretty damn good :thumbsup:

[RubeBaker]

And there is no way Bonds is overrated.. He is IMO the greatest all-around player in the history of the game.

As much as I despise that man, I would have to agree with you. I think he's been so under the microscope since the home run record, that a lot of people see that big behemoth that just kinda waddles around in right field and forget that he was once the ultimate 5 tool player. He did win 8 gloves. He used to steal on average 25-30 bases a year, and he is a part of the exclusive 40-40 club.

If he did take steroids, I'll never understand why. By the time he broke McGwire's record in 2001, he was practically a shoo in for the hall.

[Mission27]

You can't say that he's the worst in the league up the middle that's just a ridiculously ignorant statement and that's what I was pointing out.. And I can't give you a SS with less range cause I don't know about every SS in the league and don't see them play all the time and neither do you... A good part of the reason why it was a dynasty is because of Jeter, if you're gonna dispute that, im not even gonna bother replying to you anymore.. Jeter had better years than just about all of those guys last year, I think you might be the only person that believes that

BTW, using big words doesn't make you right lol

[ChrisLDuncan]

I personally did not think Jeter deserved the MVP last year. I would have voted for Morneau. I think the MVP is a combination of what you do and how you do it. Morneau just had so many big hits for the Twinkies down the stretch.

Here's the beginning of a list of players who, at least arguably had a better season that Jeter last year: Pujols, Howard, Mauer, Sizemore, Berkman, Miguel Cabrera, Beltran, Reyes, Hafner, Ortiz, Utley, Morneau...

How can a first ballot HOFer be overrated? Ask the people who voted for Nolan Ryan as the greatest pitcher ever.

And as far as asking a GM about Jeter's clutch abilities, just make that GM isn't Billy Beane or any of the other newer generation GMs who are not beholden the empirically disproven romanticisms invented and peddled by the media for their own interests.

Yes, and Jeter had no big hits for the Yankees down the stretch, and he totally didn't carry that team one bit.

As to your list, right right, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. Jeter lead the AL in VORP, Win Shares, and WARP. I don't see how Morneau, a lesser offensive player than Jeter at first base, can possibly be constrewed as the better player. You're a biased hater and a fool if you believe that.

On to the "new breed" of GMs, they all seem to like Jeter though. Billy Beane and several of his underlinks were quoted as saying something to the effect of "Defense is one area where I ignore the numbers, I watch a guy day in and day out...I know I want the ball hit to Jeter he makes the play" and they all cite his clutch awesomeness. If you want to deny that Jeter is a clutch player go ahead, and while you're at it you can also deny gravity.

[Mission27]

Second the notion of a biased hater and a fool^ lol... all Mets fans hate Jeter

[ChrisLDuncan]

As much as I despise that man, I would have to agree with you. I think he's been so under the microscope since the home run record, that a lot of people see that big behemoth that just kinda waddles around in right field and forget that he was once the ultimate 5 tool player. He did win 8 gloves. He used to steal on average 25-30 bases a year, and he is a part of the exclusive 40-40 club.

If he did take steroids, I'll never understand why. By the time he broke McGwire's record in 2001, he was practically a shoo in for the hall.

Don't forget he had two OPS+ seasons of 200 where he wasn't expected of doing anything, when he was that little guy who hit for power and stole bases, while there were still guys like McGwire and Sosa that were suspected of jucing. Mays never had an OPS+ season of over 200. No way in hell is Bonds overrated.

[Brooklyn]

Barry Zito. Turned the hype into a huge contract. Had one great year, his Cy year in 2002. Had good years to surround the Cy year in 2001 and 2003, but has been a slightly above average pitcher ever since. A nice #3 guy in the rotation, maybe even #2, but not the stud ace that the Giants are paying him to be.

Bobby Abreu. He isn't as bad as he looked earlier this year, but highly overrated before that.

Alfonso Soriano. Strikes out way too much. Like Zito, cashed in on name recognition.

JD Drew. This guy has continuously gotten contracts based on potential, but don't you think, by age 31, it is finally time to put up some numbers?

Derek Jeter. All these underrated / overrated threads seem to get hijacked by Jeter discussion. People feel strongly either way. But the poster who threw out stats to defend Jeter not being overrated does not understand the definition of overrated. Overrated does not mean not good. It means not as good as the general consensus. Jeter is a very good player, possibly ever great for a middle infielder. But he is not as good as the accolades that he gets, which is why he is on my overrated list. And the fact that he has 3 gold gloves does not prove he was good defensively. If you believe he is at best an average short stop (like I do), then those gold gloves are further proof that he is overrated.

[Brooklyn]

... and they all cite his clutch awesomeness. If you want to deny that Jeter is a clutch player go ahead, and while you're at it you can also deny gravity.

GMs may all cite his clutch awesomeness, but do they ever really look at the stats to back that up? He has played in 119 post-season games. he has had 2, maybe three truly memorable hits. But that sounds about right for 3/4 of a season worth of games.

Here are some stats for Jeter:


overall .317 / .389 / .463
RISP. .312 / .407 / .437
2 outs, RISP .315 / .418 / .449
7th inning or later, tied, up by one, or with tying run at least on deck. .280 / .374 / .407
all situations, innings 7-9. .281 / .368 / .406


for all these "clutch" stats, his batting average and slugging are lower in the clutch situations than non-clutch situations. with RISP and 2-outs RISP, his OBP goes up, and in all these situations his walk rate goes up. That may be a function of being pitcher around, but is that really what you want from a clutch player, someone who hits less, hits for less power, and walks more?

I don't have post-season stats broken out the same, but I had read that the disparity is even greater in the post-season.

I don't have a problem with people saying Jeter is a great player. I can even accept people thinking his is good defensively, because that is tough to measure, but I don't see it. But it bothers me that he is thought of as being clutch, when there is no back-up to that claim. Every sports show host in new York, and I'd venture ESPN too, will throw Jeter's name out there when talking about the most clutch players in the game. And that is why I have him on my overrated list.

Also, at one point late into the 2006 season, Jeter was leading the lead in time ending a game with the tying runs on base or in the batter's box. Not sure if he finished as the absolute leader, but he was clearly near the top. Doesn't sound like a stat a clutch player would lead the league in.

[RubeBaker]

Here are some stats for Jeter:


overall .317 / .389 / .463
RISP. .312 / .407 / .437
2 outs, RISP .315 / .418 / .449
7th inning or later, tied, up by one, or with tying run at least on deck. .280 / .374 / .407
all situations, innings 7-9. .281 / .368 / .406


for all these "clutch" stats, his batting average and slugging are lower in the clutch situations than non-clutch situations. with RISP and 2-outs RISP, his OBP goes up, and in all these situations his walk rate goes up. That may be a function of being pitcher around, but is that really what you want from a clutch player, someone who hits less, hits for less power, and walks more?


You cite his slugging %, which is down, but ignore his OBP which is way up or about the same. No, he's not the most powerful hitter, but he doesn't blow a scoring opportunity by swinging for the fences. But he does buckle down, find the gap, and drive it in the hole to knock in one or two runs with a single.

Career Postseason:
.314/.383/.479

Almost identical to the regular season. Although I don't have his career post season splits either, there is a lot to be said for someone who hits just as well in the post season as he does in the regular season.

[ChrisLDuncan]

GMs may all cite his clutch awesomeness, but do they ever really look at the stats to back that up? He has played in 119 post-season games. he has had 2, maybe three truly memorable hits. But that sounds about right for 3/4 of a season worth of games.

Here are some stats for Jeter:


overall .317 / .389 / .463
RISP. .312 / .407 / .437
2 outs, RISP .315 / .418 / .449
7th inning or later, tied, up by one, or with tying run at least on deck. .280 / .374 / .407
all situations, innings 7-9. .281 / .368 / .406


for all these "clutch" stats, his batting average and slugging are lower in the clutch situations than non-clutch situations. with RISP and 2-outs RISP, his OBP goes up, and in all these situations his walk rate goes up. That may be a function of being pitcher around, but is that really what you want from a clutch player, someone who hits less, hits for less power, and walks more?

I don't have post-season stats broken out the same, but I had read that the disparity is even greater in the post-season.

I don't have a problem with people saying Jeter is a great player. I can even accept people thinking his is good defensively, because that is tough to measure, but I don't see it. But it bothers me that he is thought of as being clutch, when there is no back-up to that claim. Every sports show host in new York, and I'd venture ESPN too, will throw Jeter's name out there when talking about the most clutch players in the game. And that is why I have him on my overrated list.

Also, at one point late into the 2006 season, Jeter was leading the lead in time ending a game with the tying runs on base or in the batter's box. Not sure if he finished as the absolute leader, but he was clearly near the top. Doesn't sound like a stat a clutch player would lead the league in.

If you want to deny Jeter's clutchness go ahead...as to Jeter's 2006, he was a freak with RISP and two outs. He had a .506 OBP with two outs and RISP, that means half the time they didn't get him out. The lowest OBP for any of his "clutch stat" is .397, so they have a damned hard time getting Jeter out in the clutch situatioins. Also I can remember a certian five game series that sealed the Yanks in to the post season that Jeter was key in. There is plenty to back up that Jeter is a clutch player, not to mention that I really don't think that clutchness can be "measured" persay...but also here's this. Down the stretch in September Jeter had an OBP of .410 and batted .360, yeah not clutch.

[ChrisLDuncan]

You cite his slugging %, which is down, but ignore his OBP which is way up or about the same. No, he's not the most powerful hitter, but he doesn't blow a scoring opportunity by swinging for the fences. But he does buckle down, find the gap, and drive it in the hole to knock in one or two runs with a single.


His OBP IMO is the most important, he doesn't make outs and get gets on, he's also a very good base runner too.

[natsnsoxfan]

Vizquel isn't what he used to be defensively. The one thing I hate about "on pace" is that Jeter got a rough start so I would say he makes less than 20 errors this season...however errors are pretty meaningless if you ask me to an extent As to Alex Gonzalez being better than him last season? FRAA has Jeter at +7 FRAA and Gonzalez at -5 last season...Jeter wins. As to Betancourt he is at -10 FRAA, I'm not saying that's the end all be all...but Jeter I would say is about a B- defender...and with his offense from Short that's a great player. He is the face of baseball, the most popular player in the game but that doesn't meant that he is the best. IMO he deserved the MVP in 2006 and 1999. The fact that people bring him up as the most overrated in the game IMO means he is the most UNDERRATED in the game. A book you may want to check out is The Stark Truth (yes I know that he only covers players from about 1960 on, but he does get Jimmy Wynn there :thumbsup: ) Jayson Stark covers the Jeter thing pretty well...I couldn't have put it better myself.



The thing about Derek Jeter is that he doesn't just "Happen to be a Yankee" He is the heart and soul fo that Yankee team and he has been for all of the dynasty...with out him I don't think they win for chips in the 90s...and for those of you that think his clutch hitting is a myth???? I suggest you speak with any manager or GM in the game.

Other than errors i think defensive statistics are almost completely meaningless because you can tell whose a better defender more by WATCHING them than looking at numbers, and even errors can be questionable sometimes since there isn't really a clear cut boundary on what is an error and whats not at time since its based on the opinion of the scorer. Any sane person who actually WATCHED a game in which Alex Gonzalez played last year and compared it to a game that Jeter played last year would have said 9 out of 10 times that Gonzalez was by the better fielder than Gonzalez. Same comparing him to Yuni, Orlando Cabrera, and probably Michael Young too.

[slugger33]

Roger Clemens? That has to be a joke. I guess Nolan Ryan and Cy Young are over rated too then.

[philipthegreat]

I would say Lincecum

[cardsfanatic]

soriano & andruw jones

[natsnsoxfan]

soriano & andruw jones

I wouldn't say Jones is the very most overrated. although he is overrated. I would put guys like Bonds, Soriano, Eckstein, and several others ahead of him.

[digglahhh]

nd I can't give you a SS with less range cause I don't know about every SS in the league and don't see them play all the time and neither do you...

Yes I do. In fact, for about two years, watching baseball was my job!

Jeter was a big part of that dynasty. I don't think he was irreplaceable though. I don't think anybody on that team was irreplaceable. In fact, the Yankees replaced important parts of their team over and over throughout that stretch (albeit with a stable nucleus of which Jeter was a huge part).

I do NOT, repeat, DO NOT hate Derek Jeter. You are very fond of sweeping generalizations without any evidence. The statements like the ones you are giving are the epitome of why many people have a bad image of Yankee fans.

You underestimate how close to the game several members of Fever are. You counter carefully composed arguments with ad hominems based on some fabricated persecution complex Yankee fans have about the way Mets fans feel about Derek Jeter. This is like the textbook on how to not fit in here.

[digglahhh]

Roger Clemens? That has to be a joke. I guess Nolan Ryan and Cy Young are over rated too then.

Overrated?

Ryan, yes, near the top of the overrated list.

Young, no. Underrated if anything.

[digglahhh]

not to mention that I really don't think that clutchness can be "measured" persay...but also here's this. Down the stretch in September Jeter had an OBP of .410 and batted .360, yeah not clutch.

If it can't be measured, it can't be proven either.

You seem to want it to work out so that the evidence against Jeter being incredibly clutch is immaterial AND you don't have to provide evidence that he is for your argument to be valid.

[ChrisLDuncan]

Other than errors i think defensive statistics are almost completely meaningless because you can tell whose a better defender more by WATCHING them than looking at numbers, and even errors can be questionable sometimes since there isn't really a clear cut boundary on what is an error and whats not at time since its based on the opinion of the scorer. Any sane person who actually WATCHED a game in which Alex Gonzalez played last year and compared it to a game that Jeter played last year would have said 9 out of 10 times that Gonzalez was by the better fielder than Gonzalez. Same comparing him to Yuni, Orlando Cabrera, and probably Michael Young too.

Thing about errors is a lot of great rangy players get to balls that other players wouldn't even dream of...and sometimes they make a bad play on it, so that's why I tend to take erros with a grain of salt. I've watched a lot of players...IMO the best defender in baseball is Adam Everett. Any stat that doesn't have him as the best IMO is worthless. Even in watching baseball there's the range you see and the range you don't see. Also what if the guy plays around good defenders? Or what if the guy plays around lousy defenders? If a guy short stop plays with a great rangy third basemen with a cannon (e.g. Eric Chavez or Adrian Beltre) there's a chance he won't get as many balls but he'll be more efficient with the balls he gets too because he has an easier job because his 3B man will do alot of the work for him. What about the guy who plays next to a third basemen like Chipper Jones? He has his work cut out for him. He can't guard his "zone" as well because he not only needs to worry about his area but his 3Bman's area. Or what if an infielder doesn't have a first basemen that can scoop out throws as well? He won't make as many plays because he will likely take less chances worrying about throwing the ball away. I'll say it's about 65% visual and 35% stats with defense though. As to Jeter's gold gloves they are voted by bench coaches, managers, thrid base coaches, etc. all former players, and they have no reason to "love" Jeter. I would also say that they know a thing or two about defense.

[ChrisLDuncan]

If it can't be measured, it can't be proven either.

You seem to want it to work out so that the evidence against Jeter being incredibly clutch is immaterial AND you don't have to provide evidence that he is for your argument to be valid.

I think clutchness is a subjective thing, to me it's more of a matter of opinion. But I'll play along. The fact is in 2006 Jeter didn't make very many outs in clutch situations and performed well above league average in those situations. Not to mention that they are getting this from a short stop.

[ChrisLDuncan]

I wouldn't say Jones is the very most overrated. although he is overrated. I would put guys like Bonds, Soriano, Eckstein, and several others ahead of him.

How on earth do the words overrated and Barry Bonds fit together? .493 you are lucky to get this man out half of the time.

[ChrisLDuncan]

I used to think that Bonds was UNDERRATED. Now that it's an established fact that he's a cheater, and that fact that there is too much emphasis on HRs makes him OVERRATED.

Yes...established fact, I would say suspicion, but lets call it that. I agree HRs are to emphasized, which is why I say Andruw Jones is overrated. Also what about that OBP? Or that SLG? Last I checked Bonds did pretty well there.

[ChrisLDuncan]

I would say Lincecum

My fantasy team hopes that you are wrong...he's a rookie for christ's sake.

[Westlake]

So now being clutch is not making outs in clutch situations? Sounds like its not too hard to be clutch these days. In old time, you actually had to pick up an RBI or something to that effect.

[digglahhh]

Yes, and Jeter had no big hits for the Yankees down the stretch, and he totally didn't carry that team one bit.

As to your list, right right, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. Jeter lead the AL in VORP, Win Shares, and WARP. I don't see how Morneau, a lesser offensive player than Jeter at first base, can possibly be constrewed as the better player. You're a biased hater and a fool if you believe that.

On to the "new breed" of GMs, they all seem to like Jeter though. Billy Beane and several of his underlinks were quoted as saying something to the effect of "Defense is one area where I ignore the numbers, I watch a guy day in and day out...I know I want the ball hit to Jeter he makes the play" and they all cite his clutch awesomeness. If you want to deny that Jeter is a clutch player go ahead, and while you're at it you can also deny gravity.

The allegations of foolery coupled with the horrific spelling (on a computer) would make for a nice submission to The Onion.

I said all those guys had arguments as having a better season than Jeter.

I could make arguments in favor of all of those guys. I could make arguments for Jeter over them too. The issue certainly isn't summed up by throwing out a player's VORP or Win Shares. THT has Pujols, Beltran, Cabrera, and Berkman ahead of Jeter for total Win Shares last year, btw. Jeter had 33, the rest of the player who had 30+ are Wright, Mauer, Howard and Soriano. A single win share is supposedly equivalent to a third of a win. Do you really think that this metric can be precise enough for you to claim that Jeter had a better year than David Wright (just using him because he is right below Jeter on the leader board) BECAUSE Win Shares show him to be more valuable to his team by 1/3 of a game!!??

That's a lot of faith to put into a total player metric.


I don't even know why I'm being put on the defensive here, I love Derek Jeter. You could certainly make an argument that he was one of the five best last year. So, in that strict sense, I misspoke. But, I wouldn't consider him one of the best five players of his generation, that is not an insult!

[natsnsoxfan]

Yes, and Jeter had no big hits for the Yankees down the stretch, and he totally didn't carry that team one bit.

As to your list, right right, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. Jeter lead the AL in VORP, Win Shares, and WARP. I don't see how Morneau, a lesser offensive player than Jeter at first base, can possibly be constrewed as the better player. You're a biased hater and a fool if you believe that.

On to the "new breed" of GMs, they all seem to like Jeter though. Billy Beane and several of his underlinks were quoted as saying something to the effect of "Defense is one area where I ignore the numbers, I watch a guy day in and day out...I know I want the ball hit to Jeter he makes the play" and they all cite his clutch awesomeness. If you want to deny that Jeter is a clutch player go ahead, and while you're at it you can also deny gravity.

Jeter had an All Star team around him, and has most of his career. Every single hitter that was on that team last year had made at least one ASG, most of them multiple. Jeter did not, I repeat did not, carry that team not on his own anyways. He had A-Rod, Matsui, Abreu, Sheff, Giambi, Cano, Jorge, and Damon hitting around him. Who does Morneau have hitting around him? Mauer, Hunter, and Cuddyer, none of whom hold a candle to what Jeter had around him.

[digglahhh]

I think clutchness is a subjective thing, to me it's more of a matter of opinion. But I'll play along. The fact is in 2006 Jeter didn't make very many outs in clutch situations and performed well above league average in those situations. Not to mention that they are getting this from a short stop.

So is your clutch-ability to be measured relative to your position too?

I'm not trying to be sarcastic. And I kind of agree with you. It is very hard to define and prove what is clutch. Sometimes, ABs that don't seem clutch at the time turn out to be important in the grand sense of the game. I think "clutch" is more about the fan than the player. It is the sense of confidence you have that your guy will get it done in a specific situation. Sometimes those feelings align with what the numbers say, and sometimes they don't.

[dl4060]

Derek Jeter ovverated? NOW ive heard it all

Thru his career his season average has been
.317 BA, .389 OBP, .463 SLG, .852 OPS, 208 H!!!, 34 2B, 83 RBI, 24 SB

In the playoffs hes hitting .314, 17 homers, 48 RBIs and has reached base 105 of 119 games.. MLB record for playoff hits at 150

and hes one of the most clutch players in MLB history


He is overrated in the same way David Beckham is. He is the face of baseball, but certainly not it's best player. He is a wonderful player, a great leader, and a first ballot hall of famer, but he is not the best player in the game, nor is he a strong candidate. He is not a very good shortstop, the second best on his own team.

There are numerous threads on Jeter, I advise you to look at them if you want to understand why people feel he is overrated. The idea held by some Yankees fans that he is better than Arod is exactly why he is overrated. Like Beckham, he is also underrated by many.

[dl4060]

but there were two years where he was the best player in baseball and didn't win the MVP..

Two years where he had an argument to be the best player in baseball. One of the reasons Jeter is overrated is that his fans anoint him as CLEARLY the best when he is POSSIBLY the best. If you want to see clearly the best look at Ted Williams in 1941 or Barry Bonds from 01-04. Jeter has two seasons where he has an argument, but he is clearly head and shoulders above everyone else only in the eyes of many of his fans, who see him through a special set of glasses.

Jeter is much like Strawberry in the mid-80's, in that he manages to be both overrated and underrated.

[dl4060]

I didn't say anything about him falling into the stands cause it has nothing to do with any of this. And he still makes those plays doesnt he? Im not gonna get into this cause youre clearly just a yankee hater lol

Disagreeing with the opinion that Derek Jeter is a great defensive player does not make someone a Yankee hater. That is precisely the type of behavior which leads to an anti-Jeter backlash and causes many to view him as less of a player than he actually is. The point of his defense is not the plays that he does make, it is the plays he doesn't make.

Jeter and his defense has been discussed here ad nauseum. If you search for it you will find many arguments on both sides.

Wright is an interesting case. For obvious reasons many of the games most polarizing players are New Yorkers. NY teams get so much publicity that many of their players acquire an almost mythic sense about them, one which cannot be backed up by logic. The fan bases for NY teams are very large and very passionate. For many Yankee fans Jeter's coming represents a return of the good times. He is symbolic of a new Yankee dynasty. While he is undoubtedly a great player, the Yankee nation has put him on a pedestal as the main reason for the return of the light. Jeter was not irreplaceable, no one on those teams was. He is a wonderful player, who deserves many of the accolades he is given, but much of Yankee nation became attached the idea of Jeter as a demigod, and many take any criticism of Jeter as a personal attack on a favorite son. The Yankees made a wonderful decision when they drafted him, but that decision alone was not the reason they won 4 rings in five years. Jeter has become a symbol for the Yanks 90's success, much as Arod has become a symbol for the 00's failure.

[Erik Bedard]

Roger Clemens? That has to be a joke. I guess Nolan Ryan and Cy Young are over rated too then.

Yup. You hit the nail on the head. Both Ryan and Young are overrated. BTW, Clemens is overrated too, though not in a career sense.

Two years where he had an argument to be the best player in baseball. One of the reasons Jeter is overrated is that his fans anoint him as CLEARLY the best when he is POSSIBLY the best. If you want to see clearly the best look at Ted Williams in 1941 or Barry Bonds from 01-04. Jeter has two seasons where he has an argument, but he is clearly head and shoulders above everyone else only in the eyes of many of his fans, who see him through a special set of glasses.

Jeter is much like Strawberry in the mid-80's, in that he manages to be both overrated and underrated.

This guy gets it.

As for my opinion, if Jeter is the worst SS going up the middle, Miguel Tejada is by far the worst going in the hole between third and short. His right knee is so sore that he can't get anything on his initial jump, and a grounder with any kind of velocity is going to get right by him and Melvin Mora, who's really an outfielder playing third base. Tejada, while he hits for a high BA, hasn't really had much power in a while. And if you think Jeter isn't clutch, then watch Tejada. He can't hit in the ninth when it's close, he grounds into a ton of DPs, and, well, he's just overrated in general.

Other guys who are overrated: Clemens, Jeter (though not as grossly as some would suggest), J.D. Drew, Hamels, Reyes, Wright.

[Brooklyn]

I think clutchness is a subjective thing, to me it's more of a matter of opinion. But I'll play along. The fact is in 2006 Jeter didn't make very many outs in clutch situations and performed well above league average in those situations. Not to mention that they are getting this from a short stop.

If you think clutchness is subjective, how can you call me out for saying he is not clutch? I watch a lot of Yankees games, and he doesn't strike me as being particularly clutch. I then went to the stats to see if I was right, and from what I saw, I was.

You quoted stats from 1/2 a season, not a very large sample size. my stats are from his career. And don't get me wrong - his stats in clutch situations are still good, but worse then his stats in non-clutch situations. I'm not saying he is terrible in clutch situations. But to be "clutch", you need to elevate yourself in those situations, which he has never done.


See this prior thread (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=38499&highlight=jeter+clutch). It is about a year and a half old, so it ignores the last few post seasons, but I think you'll see the point. Jeter has been anything but clutch in the post season.

While stats may not really show clutch situations, I need something better then "he is clutch because I say so" to change my mind.

[Baseball Guru]

His only real good year was last year, and now everyone is all over him. He doesn't draw many walks at all either, except for this year. And (excluding this year) he doesn't hit for an incredible BA and doesn't drive in that many runs. He gets alot of hits, and XBH, and he's fast. Thats all I really see in him. And part of the reason he gets so many XBH and hits is because he's fast...




Well besides last year which was very good, he is also having a very good year THIS year so last year was not his only good year... He had 190 hit in 2005 and 194 last year... Keep in mind, he's ONLY 24 and this is only his 3rd full year in the majors... You are making it sound like he's been in the league many years... When he came up he rarely took a walk and every year he has been up his walks, batting average and obp% have gone up... Not sure why anyone would think he's overrated because he is one of the most exciting players in baseball and is doing nothing to discredit that notion... He's just getting better every year... All he's done since playing a full season is lead the league in SB's and triple and that includes this year...

What is it that people are saying about him that makes him overrated in your view?

[tearforamariner]

Well besides last year which was very good, he is also having a very good year THIS year so last year was not his only good year... He had 190 hit in 2005 and 194 last year... Keep in mind, he's ONLY 24 and this is only his 3rd full year in the majors... You are making it sound like he's been in the league many years... When he came up he rarely took a walk and every year he has been up his walks, batting average and obp% have gone up... Not sure why anyone would think he's overrated because he is one of the most exciting players in baseball and is doing nothing to discredit that notion... He's just getting better every year... All he's done since playing a full season is lead the league in SB's and triple and that includes this year...

What is it that people are saying about him that makes him overrated in your view?


I think he's overrated only because recently I had two different discussions with two different people here on Fever. The first was somebody telling me that Reyes is better right now than Miguel Cabrera and the second was someone telling me that Reyes had a better shot right now of making the Hall of Fame than Cabrera does. To me this makes Reyes overrated.

[natsnsoxfan]

I think he's overrated only because recently I had two different discussions with two different people here on Fever. The first was somebody telling me that Reyes is better right now than Miguel Cabrera and the second was someone telling me that Reyes had a better shot right now of making the Hall of Fame than Cabrera does. To me this makes Reyes overrated.

Its too early to be talking about that for either of them. The only guys who are still playing who are eventual without a doubt locks for the Hall of Fame right now are Maddux, Bonds, Manny, Trevor Hoffman, A-Rod, Jeter, Clemens, Mariano Rivera and a few others that I probably missed.

[digglahhh]

I think he's overrated only because recently I had two different discussions with two different people here on Fever. The first was somebody telling me that Reyes is better right now than Miguel Cabrera and the second was someone telling me that Reyes had a better shot right now of making the Hall of Fame than Cabrera does. To me this makes Reyes overrated.

Or maybe it makes Cabrera underrated?

Reyes can close as big an OPS+ gap as anybody. Being a good defensive shortstop who steal tons of bases at a high success rate can make up some ground. Closing the gap on Cabrera is a tall order though; we are talking about one of the very best hitters in the game right now. I could see Reyes making up an OPS+ gap of something like 150 to 130. But if Cabrera is going to continue to produce at the 170 level he's at, Reyes just can't make that up.

Any talk about HOF chances of players this young should be dismissed anyway.

The claims I hear most about Reyes are: 1)that he is very good and seems to be getting better every year; 2)one of, or the most, exciting player in the game; 3)he will probably be an NL MVP candidate.

I don't think that any of those claims are untrue.

[The Great Nom]

David Wright

I'm not sure what's more overrated, his .952 OPS in May or his 1.128 OPS in June.

I have a hard time believing you're a Tiger fan when your username is Johnny Damon and you think Wright and Reyes are the two most overrated players in baseball.

Did you sleep through the Tigers/Mets series when Wright batted .400 with 3 HRs and a 1.838 OPS?

[Edgartohof]

And he would have quite a few CS's too.

Even though 64 SB's last year he still had 17 CS's and Jose Reyes' carrer SB% is 76.1% ... That's not bad but Ichiro has a SB% of 76.2%, basically equal. So if Ichiro wanted to steal 120 bases this year he probably could and probably would. It's not like Jose is the only guy that can do it.
..

Minor qualm here, but Ichiro actually has an 80.8% success rate in his career (and is 89% this year).

(Reyes actually has a success rate of 80.7%, so while the numbers are different than what you used, the point is still the same!)

[ChrisLDuncan]

See this prior thread (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=38499&highlight=jeter+clutch). It is about a year and a half old, so it ignores the last few post seasons, but I think you'll see the point. Jeter has been anything but clutch in the post season.

Because they give the WS MVP to the guy who doesn't perform well.

[ChrisLDuncan]

Two years where he had an argument to be the best player in baseball. One of the reasons Jeter is overrated is that his fans anoint him as CLEARLY the best when he is POSSIBLY the best. If you want to see clearly the best look at Ted Williams in 1941 or Barry Bonds from 01-04. Jeter has two seasons where he has an argument, but he is clearly head and shoulders above everyone else only in the eyes of many of his fans, who see him through a special set of glasses.

Jeter is much like Strawberry in the mid-80's, in that he manages to be both overrated and underrated.



I never said clearly the best, also if you want to say Williams was clearly the best in 1941 take a look at DiMaggio's win shares or WARP. And I agree with you on Bonds.

[ChrisLDuncan]

So is your clutch-ability to be measured relative to your position too?

I'm not trying to be sarcastic. And I kind of agree with you. It is very hard to define and prove what is clutch. Sometimes, ABs that don't seem clutch at the time turn out to be important in the grand sense of the game. I think "clutch" is more about the fan than the player. It is the sense of confidence you have that your guy will get it done in a specific situation. Sometimes those feelings align with what the numbers say, and sometimes they don't.

I'm saying that offense from a shortstop is more valuable...and yes I agree with you on clutch. I don't care what people say if you try to tell me that guys like Reggie Jackson, Derek Jeter, Carlos Beltran, and David Ortiz aren't clutch...CHECK PLEASE.

[ChrisLDuncan]

Jeter had an All Star team around him, and has most of his career. Every single hitter that was on that team last year had made at least one ASG, most of them multiple. Jeter did not, I repeat did not, carry that team not on his own anyways. He had A-Rod, Matsui, Abreu, Sheff, Giambi, Cano, Jorge, and Damon hitting around him. Who does Morneau have hitting around him? Mauer, Hunter, and Cuddyer, none of whom hold a candle to what Jeter had around him.

Ummm...lets see in 2006 both the Yankees corner OFs (who usually make the all star team) were hurt A-Rod was struggling (by his standards), and Cano was hurt for a few weeks too. This was the everyday line up for Jeter for most of 2006:


Johnny Damon: Good player not as good as Cuddyer in 2006...probably not even hunter
Alex Rodriguez: Had an off year by his standards he was still a good player
Posada: Mauer killed him last season
Robinson Cano: He was hurt for six weeks I believe in his place Miguel Cairo played
Andy Phillips: Go ahead tell me he Morneau was better
Melky Cabrera: Cuddeyer and Hunter were better than he was
Bernie Williams: Love him, but...
Jason Giambi: Dunno if he's better than Morneau/.

Now Abreu came in August, so yes Jeter had him then, but for a good chunk of the season Jeter carried the team. Down the stretch the Twins were a better team than the Yankees.

[ChrisLDuncan]

The allegations of foolery coupled with the horrific spelling (on a computer) would make for a nice submission to The Onion.

I said all those guys had arguments as having a better season than Jeter.

I could make arguments in favor of all of those guys. I could make arguments for Jeter over them too. The issue certainly isn't summed up by throwing out a player's VORP or Win Shares. THT has Pujols, Beltran, Cabrera, and Berkman ahead of Jeter for total Win Shares last year, btw. Jeter had 33, the rest of the player who had 30+ are Wright, Mauer, Howard and Soriano. A single win share is supposedly equivalent to a third of a win. Do you really think that this metric can be precise enough for you to claim that Jeter had a better year than David Wright (just using him because he is right below Jeter on the leader board) BECAUSE Win Shares show him to be more valuable to his team by 1/3 of a game!!??

That's a lot of faith to put into a total player metric.


I don't even know why I'm being put on the defensive here, I love Derek Jeter. You could certainly make an argument that he was one of the five best last year. So, in that strict sense, I misspoke. But, I wouldn't consider him one of the best five players of his generation, that is not an insult!

I don't see the argument for Morneau over Jeter, I can see an argument for Mauer (I disagree) but in the AL the only player that I would see as a good choice over Jeter is Johan Santana, though when it's close I say take the everyday player...but Santana was freakishly good. I am talking for AL MVP I see him as deserving two....now compare that to two "undeserved" gold gloves (I see him as a good defender after 2005 not the greatest in baseball though). With the MVPs I agree that it is close but I still see him as the winner.


Also I turned on the spell check option in Opera for you ;)


Other guys who are overrated: Clemens, J.D. Drew, Hamels, Reyes, Wright.


Okay let's see the best right handed pitcher in baseball last season in the second half is overrated, everyone on ESPN says that Clemens won't be that good in New York, just an average five or six inning pitcher. JD Drew??? If anything I see him as underrated...everyone makes fun of him because he gets injured so frequently but people forget that he had 100 RBIs last season...I'd say he managed to stay healthy enough last season. Cole Hamels??? You realize that his chief export is Ks???? Reyes...agree, Wright? I dunno, In what sense?

[The Great Nom]

If Wright and Reyes are overrated, I'd love to hear all the SSs and 3Bs who are better.

[ChrisLDuncan]

If Wright and Reyes are overrated, I want to hear all the SSs and 3Bs who are better.

Overall?? I would say that for SS: Hanley Ramirez, Orlando Cabrera, Derek Jeter for 3B: A-Rod, and Miguel Cabrera for sure.

[The Great Nom]

Overall?? I would say that for SS: Hanley Ramirez, Orlando Cabrera, Derek Jeter for 3B: A-Rod, and Miguel Cabrera for sure.

I'll pretend you didn't say Orlando Cabrera. You could make a case for the other guys though. They're still two of the best at their position in the game and they're 24 years of age.

[EdmondsFan#1]

If Wright and Reyes are overrated, I'd love to hear all the SSs and 3Bs who are better.

Shortstops: Orlando Cabrera (this year), J.J. Hardy, Carlos Guillen, Hanley Ramirez, Derek Jeter, Miguel Tejada (maybe not better but pretty dang close), Edgar Renteria (this year), Micheal Young (might have a case), and defensively; Yuniesky Betancourt.

3rd basemen: Alex Rodriguez, Miguel Cabrera, Chipper Jones, Ryan Zimmerman (might have a case), and Aramis Ramirez.

But I don't think that Wright is overrated.

[dl4060]

I never said clearly the best, also if you want to say Williams was clearly the best in 1941 take a look at DiMaggio's win shares or WARP. And I agree with you on Bonds.

Williams beat DiMaggio by 51 points of OPS+ in 1941, which is absolutely astronomical. Win Shares also rates Will Clark's 1989 season as better than Williams 1941 season, which I find even more absurd than the idea that DiMaggio's 41' was better. Needless to say it is far from a perfect system. I am curious to see how many times in history the gap between the top two players in OPS+ has been 51 points, I would bet very few.

I don't know whether or not you have said Jeter was clearly the best, I am not speaking to you in particular, but that is a common refrain. I've read opinions on this board that Jeter was by far the best player in 1999 and 2006. He certainly had an argument in both years, but to say that he was head and shoulders above the league either year is ridiculous.

[Westlake]

Yup. You hit the nail on the head. Both Ryan and Young are overrated. BTW, Clemens is overrated too, though not in a career sense.


Cy Young is overrated? In what sense? Or are you just saying that cause some of your buddies at school say things like "Well he has an award named after him, so he's duh bestest!"

If you look into his career, everything he went through, and even at his statistics, you'll see he's anything BUT overrated.

[Westlake]

I never said clearly the best, also if you want to say Williams was clearly the best in 1941 take a look at DiMaggio's win shares or WARP. And I agree with you on Bonds.

It's weird that you would put so much stock into a statistic when you don't even know what it includes. Especially one that tells you that DiMaggio was better that year. Or, as dl said, Will Clark in 89 was better as well.

.357/.440/.643 184 OPS+

.406/.553/.735 235 OPS+

Now lets try and be honest here and tell me which player you would vote for.

[Baseball Guru]

I think he's overrated only because recently I had two different discussions with two different people here on Fever. The first was somebody telling me that Reyes is better right now than Miguel Cabrera and the second was someone telling me that Reyes had a better shot right now of making the Hall of Fame than Cabrera does. To me this makes Reyes overrated.

Well that is one opinion of a fan but IMO doesnt make Reyes the most overrated player in baseball... I'm a huge Mets fan and Reyes fan but I wouldnt say Reyes is BETTER than Cabrera.. Cabrera IMO is one of the BEST players in all of baseball.. I'd pick Cabrera on a fantasy team over Reyes if I had the shot at both of them... They are 2 different types of players and play totally different games...

[Seattle1]

Cy Young is overrated? In what sense? Or are you just saying that cause some of your buddies at school say things like "Well he has an award named after him, so he's duh bestest!"

If you look into his career, everything he went through, and even at his statistics, you'll see he's anything BUT overrated.


Also, I don't think Nolan Ryan is overrated. It would be virtually impossible to "overrate" a fellow who has the most no-hitters and most strikeouts in the history of the game.

[iPod]

You underestimate how close to the game several members of Fever are. You counter carefully composed arguments with ad hominems based on some fabricated persecution complex Yankee fans have about the way Mets fans feel about Derek Jeter. This is like the textbook on how to not fit in here.

Typing "lol" in every post doesn't help his cause either, to be honest.

Mission, I really don't know what to tell you if this is honestly the first time you've heard someone say Jeter's defense is overrated. This is an opinion that has been floating around a long time. Do some basic reading on the subject; to start, I'm sure you can find several threads devoted to the topic on this board.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Roger Clemens.

How is he overrated, have you looked at his stats from last year, with very little run support. Or do we base it on only two game pitched this year. The book is still open in this year, no way to tell how he will do at this age after that layoff. But overrated is stretching it.

He was already being put down in his first game this year because it was the Pirates he beat.

Well now he pitches a very good game against a very good team the Mets and gets no run support.

I can't say he will be a plus or not do the job, it's only two games pitched.

Lets face it, at this point no way to tell how he will do this season we have to wait, thats the only real answer, we don't know.

[Westlake]

Any pitcher that rarely throws over 5-6 innings anymore and is making 28 million dollars a year is overrated, IMO.

[iPod]

Also, I don't think Nolan Ryan is overrated. It would be virtually impossible to "overrate" a fellow who has the most no-hitters and most strikeouts in the history of the game.

Almost every casual fan puts Ryan in his top 5, and tons of people rate him as the best ever. But the guy issued SO MANY WALKS. Besides leading the league in walks 8 times and being the all-time leader in allowing them, he allowed 52% more walks than Steve Carlton, who allowed more walks than anyone in history except Nolan Ryan himself. The difference in Ryan's and Carlton's walks totals for their careers, 962, is greater than the number of walks allowed in Robin Roberts' entire career. It's sickening to see how many men Ryan put on, but for some reason, the fans only look at the 7 complete game shutouts.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Any pitcher that rarely throws over 5-6 innings anymore and is making 28 million dollars a year is overrated, IMO.

Two different worlds.... over paid and overrated.
One involves money paid and the other evaluating the players worth on the field of play, how he compares to others, his performance.

[Westlake]

Two different worlds.... over paid and overrated.
One involves money paid and the other evaluating the players worth on the field of play, how he compares to others, his performance.

How does one get to be overpaid? By being overrated. A GM overrates Gary Mathews Jr.'s ability, and therefor over pays him. That's the same way I feel about Clemens.

[natsnsoxfan]

Overall?? I would say that for SS: Hanley Ramirez, Orlando Cabrera, Derek Jeter for 3B: A-Rod, and Miguel Cabrera for sure.

Orlando Cabrera? I love him for what he did for us in '04 but hes not even on the same planet as Reyes and probably never will be. Hanley is almost an exact copy of Reyes and I'd even say Hanley is better despite his sometimes suspect fielding. I have a hard time agree with Jeter since Reyes is right on par with him offensively and is better defensively. A-Rod is better than anyone to ever step on a diamond so I'm not even going to count him because its not really fair. Cabrera is definately a better hitter by miles but Wright is a little more complete in that he will steal some bases and is probably a little better with the glove. I would give Zimmerman an edge on Wright because hes not too far off with the bat and hes one of the top 3 best defensive 3rd basemen in baseball. Other than the guys that have been mentioned theres no one really on that level except for maybe Chavez but I don't think so......

[Erik Bedard]

Okay let's see the best right handed pitcher in baseball last season in the second half is overrated, everyone on ESPN says that Clemens won't be that good in New York, just an average five or six inning pitcher. JD Drew??? If anything I see him as underrated...everyone makes fun of him because he gets injured so frequently but people forget that he had 100 RBIs last season...I'd say he managed to stay healthy enough last season. Cole Hamels??? You realize that his chief export is Ks???? Reyes...agree, Wright? I dunno, In what sense?

Drew and Clemens are overrated by GMs in baseball, as well as the general public (Drew not so much, though any Yankee fans expecting Clemens to be the one who saves their season are mistaken). Hamels was hailed as the savior of pitching when he came up last year, he's shown himself to be an above average pitcher who strikes out a lot of people, plus I think K's are overrated when used by themselves. ESPN thinks Wright is the best 3B in New York. What?

Also, I don't think Nolan Ryan is overrated. It would be virtually impossible to "overrate" a fellow who has the most no-hitters and most strikeouts in the history of the game.

True, Ryan has the most strikeouts in history. However, in K/BB, which is vastly more important, he is tied for 221st on the all-time list, with such luminaries as Floyd Bannister and Kyle Lohse. In K/9, more important than counting K's, he's fourth. Not bad, but that K/BB is awful for someone with that many K's.

Any pitcher that rarely throws over 5-6 innings anymore and is making 28 million dollars a year is overrated, IMO.

Agreed.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

How does one get to be overpaid? By being overrated. A GM overrates Gary Mathews Jr.'s ability, and therefor over pays him. That's the same way I feel about Clemens.


You want to look at it that way, no problem. They are going on Roger's past performance including his performance in the NL last season.

In their view he appears to be worth what they give him. In the end after the season is over will they be proven to have made the right decision, I don't know, no one knows. Going into the situation they base their decision on past performance, thats what they go by.

As for your view I think the front office in any team is not as influenced by the press reports as the fans are. They do a much thorough job evaluating players. Do they make mistakes sure they do, both ways, over paying some and letting others slip away go to other teams where they shine.

My opinion, I think it may be difficult over the long haul for Roger at his age to keep a peak performance but I thought the same when he left N.Y. for Houston.

[Seattle1]

Nolan Ryan:

324 Wins, 773 GS, 222 CG, 61 SHO, 5,714 SO, 7 No-Hitters

In reality, there is not a way to take numbers like that and try to spin a negative out of them, or construct a credible claim of "overrated." It doesn't really wash.

[slugger33]

If Wright and Reyes are overrated, I'd love to hear all the SSs and 3Bs who are better.
Better third basemen than Wright:

1. A-Rod
2. Miguel Cabrera
3. Chipper Jones

[natsnsoxfan]

Nolan Ryan:

324 Wins, 773 GS, 222 CG, 61 SHO, 5,714 SO, 7 No-Hitters

In reality, there is not a way to take numbers like that and try to spin a negative out of them, or construct a credible claim of "overrated." It doesn't really wash.

When people consider him the best pitcher ever or even top 5 or 10 it is. By even putting him in the top 5 or 10 you are putting him on a level with Walter Johnson, Cy Young, Roger Clemens, Tom Seaver, Pedro Martinez, Christy Mathewson, Sandy Koufax, Warren Spahn, and Greg Maddux. He doesn't even hold a candle to those guys. Hes definately a top 100 pitcher, maybe even top 50, which is a great place to be, but hes not on the level some people think he is.

[RubeBaker]

Any pitcher that rarely throws over 5-6 innings anymore and is making 28 million dollars a year is overrated, IMO.

Actually, it's 18 million. 28 Million is what it would have been had he played a full season.

Nolan Ryan:

324 Wins, 773 GS, 222 CG, 61 SHO, 5,714 SO, 7 No-Hitters

In reality, there is not a way to take numbers like that and try to spin a negative out of them, or construct a credible claim of "overrated." It doesn't really wash.

No way to spin these numbers either:

-2795 BBs (almost a thousand more than 2nd place Steve Carlton)

-292 losses is third all time

-13 times finished in top 10 in hit batsmen, ranks 9th all time

-1st all time in wild pitches

Let's also not forget that in 25 years in the bigs, he never led his league in wins, only had 2 20 win seasons, never won a Cy Young, and never won an MVP. He is definitely Hall of Fame worthy though, and was truly something to see in his day, but is very much overrated when people claim him as the best all time when he was never considered the best in his league in any given year.

[Westlake]

Actually, it's 18 million. 28 Million is what it would have been had he played a full season.



I know that. I guess next time I'll put the word pro-rated in there to avoid a misunderstanding.

[ChrisLDuncan]

Orlando Cabrera? I love him for what he did for us in '04 but hes not even on the same planet as Reyes and probably never will be. Hanley is almost an exact copy of Reyes and I'd even say Hanley is better despite his sometimes suspect fielding. I have a hard time agree with Jeter since Reyes is right on par with him offensively and is better defensively. A-Rod is better than anyone to ever step on a diamond so I'm not even going to count him because its not really fair. Cabrera is definately a better hitter by miles but Wright is a little more complete in that he will steal some bases and is probably a little better with the glove. I would give Zimmerman an edge on Wright because hes not too far off with the bat and hes one of the top 3 best defensive 3rd basemen in baseball. Other than the guys that have been mentioned theres no one really on that level except for maybe Chavez but I don't think so......


Dude, O-Cab is having an amazing season...as to Jeter and Reyes; if anything they are equal defensively, if not Jeter is better. I would also say Jeter is better offensively, but that will only last for another season at the most. I've changed my mind on Reyes...he's the most exciting player in baseball...he may even lead the NL in VORP, if not tied with Hanley...after that it's kind of hard to say that he's overrated. I don't think Reyes is overrated so much as I think Hanley is underrated. To me if you can make a solid argument that someone is the best player in a certain league, and there are people that think that said player is the best player in the league...then I can't say he's overrated.

[ChrisLDuncan]

How does one get to be overpaid? By being overrated. A GM overrates Gary Mathews Jr.'s ability, and therefor over pays him. That's the same way I feel about Clemens.

Payment isn't all about what they're getting on the field...so does that mean a guy like Cole Hamels who makes 400 K and leads the league in strikeouts is underrated?

[GotMelk?]

Chone Figgins -Overrated offensively and defensively. Bad arm.
Coco Crisps-Defense(great range horrlible Damon-ese type arm)
Barry Bonds

[ChrisLDuncan]

Drew and Clemens are overrated by GMs in baseball, as well as the general public (Drew not so much, though any Yankee fans expecting Clemens to be the one who saves their season are mistaken). Hamels was hailed as the savior of pitching when he came up last year, he's shown himself to be an above average pitcher who strikes out a lot of people, plus I think K's are overrated when used by themselves. ESPN thinks Wright is the best 3B in New York. What?



I don't think GMs overrated Clemens, they may overpay him...but realistically I don't think Cash expects more than six innings a night...as to Yankee fans thinking Clemens will be their savior, well one pitcher won't do that...but the intangible things that Clemens brings to the team will go a long ways to help. Also every personality on ESPN has been saying the addition of Clemens is like putting a band-aid on a stab wound, and seeing as ESPN is where most people get their sports information...I don't see how Clemens is overrated. Hamels is still a very young pitcher, I think this will be his full first season. He has 230 career innings pitched. If he's leading the league in Ks now, 8th in the league in QS, 9th in WHIP, and first in the league in K/BB amongst pitchers with 60+ innings (RJ is ahead but he hasn't pitched enough yet.) I don't see how that is overrrated, I think in the future he will be very very good. I think he has the potential to be Johan Santana squared, but if he wins the Cy Young award thi season instead of Peavy (assuming they keep the pace) then yes I will agree with you that he is overrated.

[Westlake]

Payment isn't all about what they're getting on the field...so does that mean a guy like Cole Hamels who makes 400 K and leads the league in strikeouts is underrated?

If you're going to go into players that still haven't had the chance to be FA, then you're barking up the wrong tree.

[Westlake]

Chone Figgins -Overrated offensively and defensively. Bad arm.
Coco Crisps-Defense(great range horrlible Damon-ese type arm)
Barry Bonds

Not in your wildest dreams is Coco's arm as bad as Johnny's. Even when he was with the Sox, many articles (supposedly based on scouting reports) cited him as having "the worst major league outfield arm." And it hasn't gotten any better.

[natsnsoxfan]

I don't think I've ever seen someone with an arm as bad as Damon. He puts his whole body into his throws and he still has trouble getting it to the infield. Coco's isn't very good either, average at best, but its not nearly as bad as Damon's.

[RubeBaker]

If you're going to go into players that still haven't had the chance to be FA, then you're barking up the wrong tree.

Forget free agency, he's still being paid the minimum because he isn't eve eligible for arbitration yet.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Nolan Ryan:

324 Wins, 773 GS, 222 CG, 61 SHO, 5,714 SO, 7 No-Hitters

In reality, there is not a way to take numbers like that and try to spin a negative out of them, or construct a credible claim of "overrated." It doesn't really wash.

If he is overrated it's not by that many fans. On the internet it seems like many times when someone puts him high on the list it's followed by a good number of posters who drop him down a good many notches.

I don't consider him to be that great of a pitcher, credit him with having a great fast ball for a good number of years, durable.

I certainly did enjoy watching him, always a high number of strikeouts and those 7 no-hitters but not my choice for the one big game.

[Seattle1]

I guess some people just have it in for him or something. :shrug:

[Edgartohof]

Also, I don't think Nolan Ryan is overrated. It would be virtually impossible to "overrate" a fellow who has the most no-hitters and most strikeouts in the history of the game.

Oh it's possible all right. He was good and he lasted a long time, and when he was at his best, he shown as bright as the rest of them, but he had as many (actually a lot more) not so great moments as well (which those who overrate him seem to just ignore and forget about).

[Baseball Guru]

Shortstops: Orlando Cabrera (this year), J.J. Hardy, Carlos Guillen, Hanley Ramirez, Derek Jeter, Miguel Tejada (maybe not better but pretty dang close), Edgar Renteria (this year), Micheal Young (might have a case), and defensively; Yuniesky Betancourt.



You think ALL of those SS's are having better years than Reyes?:noidea

They are all different kinds of players and asked to do different things for their teams...

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/stats/playercompare?sort=22&cat=Batting&pids%5B5406%5D=1&pids%5B5900%5D=1&pids%5B5602%5D=1&pids%5B7488%5D=1&pids%5B7066%5D=1&pids%5B5888%5D=1&pids%5B6105%5D=1&pids%5B7511%5D=1&pids%5B6613%5D=1&pids%5B7283%5D=1

[digglahhh]

Shortstops: Orlando Cabrera (this year), J.J. Hardy, Carlos Guillen, Hanley Ramirez, Derek Jeter, Miguel Tejada (maybe not better but pretty dang close), Edgar Renteria (this year), Micheal Young (might have a case), and defensively; Yuniesky Betancourt.

3rd basemen: Alex Rodriguez, Miguel Cabrera, Chipper Jones, Ryan Zimmerman (might have a case), and Aramis Ramirez.

But I don't think that Wright is overrated.

Are you guys out of your mind?

There's one SS that is clearly better than Reyes and another that's like a pick 'em at this point. The pick 'em is Jeter, the no doubter plays 3B on Jeter's team.

There is no way Cabrera (in the midst of his career year) is better.

Miggy hasn't made a play in the hole in about four years and I'll pass on his league average OBP; he has NO case for being better than Reyes.

Michael Young is another average defender at best who has had one season with an OPS+ over 106, again - NO case

Renteria is having a very good year this year. He is in the middle of the pack with the glove among NL SSes. He has an OPS+ below league average for his career. NO case.

Betancourt is good with the glove. We'll ignore for a second that his SLG looks like Reyes's OBP. THT's Runs Saved Above Average actually has Reyes as the best defensive SS in the game this year. With the glove, he's got a case. As an overall player, well, Juan Pierre is faster than Albert Pujols...

Hardy has come back to earth. His OPS+ is lower than Reyes's by 18 points. Reyes is a better defender. Oh, and yeah, 0/2 vs. 37/45 that's SBs. Next!...

Guillen is a very good player, and very underrated. He's a butcher with the glove though, and oft injured. This year he's got a 3 point edge on Reyes by OPS+. He is 4 for 9 on the bases, Reyes is 37 for 45. Basically, you can argue that purely in the batter's box, Guillen is better. Every other facet of the game is Reyes in a runaway.

Ramirez does not yet have a case as better than Reyes. He could certainly develop to be better though. Offensively, they are similar palyers. Reyes may be slightly faster, Hanley looks to have better power, at least than Reyes from the left side. Hanley is very much like Reyes from the right side. But, Reyes is a much better defender.

So, you have Jeter with an argument and Hanley on his heels. That's it! There is no logically grounded argument arguing for any of the other guys over Reyes. And, every GM in the game would trade their SS for Reyes (objectively, minus the connection and identity, that includes Cashman, basically only for the age difference though).


Onto Wright.

Cabrera's better. There's no arguing that.

That A-Rod guy is pretty good, I've heard.

Chipper when healthy has an argument. Though THT has Wright as the best defensive 3B this year. Wright has also swiped 16 without being caught. It's close. David Wright has not yet reached the level of Chipper in his prime though.

Puts up pretty numbers, but he is a career below league average OBP guy. In Wright's short career, he's been 40 points above the league average. Ramirez has a little more power, but plays in a better power hitter's park too. Wright can run, Ramirez can't. Wright's a better defender too.

For all Zimmerman's pretty numbers last year's OPS+ was lower than Jose Valentin's. Zimmerman could be pretty good. He's good with the glove too. The level that Wright is at already looks to be Zimmerman's ceiling.

Again, find me a GM not in the Bronx or Florida who wouldn't trade their 3B for David Wright.

[ChrisLDuncan]

Are you guys out of your mind?

There's one SS that is clearly better than Reyes and another that's like a pick 'em at this point. The pick 'em is Jeter, the no doubter plays 3B on Jeter's team.

There is no way Cabrera (in the midst of his career year) is better.



I'll take Reyes over O-Cab for the long haul, but O-Cab is having a hell of a season. Agree on the other points, I think Jeter/Reyes will remain a 'pick em' until next season, but after that Reyes is to young...it would be unfair to expect Jeter to keep up with a guy ten years younger than him.


Miggy hasn't made a play in the hole in about four years and I'll pass on his league average OBP; he has NO case for being better than Reyes.

Michael Young is another average defender at best who has had one season with an OPS+ over 106, again - NO case

Renteria is having a very good year this year. He is in the middle of the pack with the glove among NL SSes. He has an OPS+ below league average for his career. NO case.

Betancourt is good with the glove. We'll ignore for a second that his SLG looks like Reyes's OBP. THT's Runs Saved Above Average actually has Reyes as the best defensive SS in the game this year. With the glove, he's got a case. As an overall player, well, Juan Pierre is faster than Albert Pujols...

Hardy has come back to earth. His OPS+ is lower than Reyes's by 18 points. Reyes is a better defender. Oh, and yeah, 0/2 vs. 37/45 that's SBs. Next!...

Guillen is a very good player, and very underrated. He's a butcher with the glove though, and oft injured. This year he's got a 3 point edge on Reyes by OPS+. He is 4 for 9 on the bases, Reyes is 37 for 45. Basically, you can argue that purely in the batter's box, Guillen is better. Every other facet of the game is Reyes in a runaway.


I agree with you on most of this, but I don't think Reyes is the best defender at short...FRAA has him at +3, which is good but not the best.


Ramirez does not yet have a case as better than Reyes. He could certainly develop to be better though. Offensively, they are similar palyers. Reyes may be slightly faster, Hanley looks to have better power, at least than Reyes from the left side. Hanley is very much like Reyes from the right side. But, Reyes is a much better defender.

So, you have Jeter with an argument and Hanley on his heels. That's it! There is no logically grounded argument arguing for any of the other guys over Reyes. And, every GM in the game would trade their SS for Reyes (objectively, minus the connection and identity, that includes Cashman, basically only for the age difference though).



I would actually say that Hanley is better compared with Reyes, looking at Hanley's rookie year last season and the fact that he is having a good year this season too. Hanley is bigger and IMO has more power potential, I think Hanley is better but I would call it a toss up right now.



Onto Wright.

Cabrera's better. There's no arguing that.

That A-Rod guy is pretty good, I've heard.

Chipper when healthy has an argument. Though THT has Wright as the best defensive 3B this year. Wright has also swiped 16 without being caught. It's close. David Wright has not yet reached the level of Chipper in his prime though.

Puts up pretty numbers, but he is a career below league average OBP guy. In Wright's short career, he's been 40 points above the league average. Ramirez has a little more power, but plays in a better power hitter's park too. Wright can run, Ramirez can't. Wright's a better defender too.

For all Zimmerman's pretty numbers last year's OPS+ was lower than Jose Valentin's. Zimmerman could be pretty good. He's good with the glove too. The level that Wright is at already looks to be Zimmerman's ceiling.

Again, find me a GM not in the Bronx or Florida who wouldn't trade their 3B for David Wright.

I agree with you here too...I think Wright and Reyes are 'overrated' in the same way that Jeter is 'overrated' over hyped maybe, but ESPN sucks...we all know that. I've changed my mind on Reyes, I don't think he's overrated so much as Hanley is underrated...same goes for Wright and Cabrera.

[JRJohnson6]

Derek Jeter

or

Barry Bonds, because they think he can hit 30 homers a season but hes 40+..

Man, that's just dumb. He has more hits than Pete Rose did through the same amount of games. This guy will go down as one of the greats. No, I will admit that playing for the Yankees has helped, but you still can't take his talent away from him.

[JRJohnson6]

The whole overrated/underrated arguments are tough. It basically boils down to who do you think gets more press. When I think of guys who are overrated I think of guys who move around from team to team because everybody thinks that they are finally going to be good because they are finally on the right team. Some guys that come to mind are J.D. Drew and Jeff Weaver. These guys always seem to be guys who are going to be difference makers for their new teams. However, every year they just absolutely suck.

[slugger33]

Does anybody agree that Albert Pujols is under rated? He hit .331 with 49 home runs and 137 rbi and should of won the MVP.

[STLCards2]

Does anybody agree that Albert Pujols is under rated? He hit .331 with 49 home runs and 137 rbi and should of won the MVP.

I don't think Albert is underrated. You would find very few knowlegable baseball fans who would not agree that he is one of the 3 best players in baseball today. If he played in new York or Boston he would get more attention, yes.

By the way, anybody notice after a horrible start(the worst stretch of his career) and zero support around him, Pujols is putting up a 151 OPS+ season?

[ChrisLDuncan]

I don't think Albert is underrated. You would find very few knowlegable baseball fans who would not agree that he is one of the 3 best players in baseball today. If he played in new York or Boston he would get more attention, yes.

By the way, anybody notice after a horrible start(the worst stretch of his career) and zero support around him, Pujols is putting up a 151 OPS+ season?


Yeah I still think he's primed for a .500/.700/1.200 run to get back to his career norms.