Shawn Green: Stealing Signs?

[Williamsburg2599]

Blog post from AOL sports:
Brad Penny: Shawn Green Steals Signs (http://sports.aol.com/fanhouse/2007/06/14/brad-penny-shawn-green-steals-signs/)
Posted Jun 14th 2007 10:15AM by Larry Brown
Filed under: Los Angeles, New York, Mets, Dodgers, NL East, NL West, MLB Gossip

There was an odd occurrence in the Dodgers 9-1 win over the Mets on Wednesday night which completed the sweep for LA. After striking out Shawn Green to end the top of the 3rd, Brad Penny decided to approach Green at the plate rather than walk off the field. Penny wanted a few words because he thought Green had been relaying signs to the batter from second base after doubling in the first:
"I was a little mad at the time," said Penny. "[Green] was giving pitch location to the hitter from second base in the first inning. When you do that, and you have a reputation for doing that, people are watching you and you take a chance of getting yourself or your team where you shouldn't be."
Naturally, Shawn Green defended himself:
"I was working on my shin guard, and there he was," said Green. "He said I was giving location of pitches from second base, which wasn't true. A little bit of paranoia on their side. If you think someone is stealing signs, you change the signs. It's that simple."
There are a few issues at work here. For one, I think Penny went about it the right way -- which is to say striking out Green rather than dosing him. Secondly, is Shawn Green violating the baseball code here? And does the reputation for relaying signs as Penny puts it, make Green a cheater? Third, Green says Penny was paranoid -- which is entirely possible. The two were teammates on the Dodgers briefly in 2004 after Penny got traded to LA, which means Penny is probably familiar with Green's tricks. Chances are, he could've been looking for something that wasn't there. Finally, one of my favorite aspects of the incident was the way manager Grady Little protected his player. Grady maneuvered his way around the issue after the game, saying that the ex-teammates might have been working on their dinner plans. Little really is a players' manager, and they love him for it.

Video of Green and Penny's talk after the 3rd inning:
http://losangeles.dodgers.mlb.com/media/player/mp_tpl.jsp?w_id=577792&w=mms%3A//a1503.v108692.c10869.g.vm.akamaistream.net/7/1503/10869/v0001/mlb.download.akamai.com/10869/2007/open/tp/archive06/061307_nynlan_penny_green_tp_350.wmv&pid=mlb_tp&gid=2007/06/13/nynmlb-lanmlb-1&vid=7758&mid=200706132025193&cid=mlb&fid=mlb_tp400&v=2&mType=w&urlstr=&mUrl=&type=v_free&_mp=1

[Mission27]

I think he was, I have no problem with this tho

It's become part of the game.. and like Green said, if you think theyre stealing signs change the signs and dont let them be stolen. I think this is the least-serious form of 'cheating' in baseball

[RubeBaker]

I don't have an answer to this. Is there any video of him acting odd while on second?

This sort of thing comes up every now and then. I think Jason Bay was accused by the Braves maybe a year or two of the same thing. Then there was another player complaining that the White Sox had an elaborate lighting system on their scoreboard that gave away signs.

In football, if the D-Line guess the snap count, or the defense knows what play's coming, nobody complains. In basketball, if you know who the final shot is going to, no one complains of cheating. But in baseball, if you look at something going on right in front of you, the other team whines and complains. Like Mission said, they should have changed the signs so the other team can't figure it out.

[Mission27]

Ill admit I also havent seen whether he did or not, but ill assume he did (because of the pitchers reaction, and also since i dont really care at all if ppl steal signs lol)

[Xeifrank]

I don't have an answer to this. Is there any video of him acting odd while on second?

This sort of thing comes up every now and then. I think Jason Bay was accused by the Braves maybe a year or two of the same thing. Then there was another player complaining that the White Sox had an elaborate lighting system on their scoreboard that gave away signs.

In football, if the D-Line guess the snap count, or the defense knows what play's coming, nobody complains. In basketball, if you know who the final shot is going to, no one complains of cheating. But in baseball, if you look at something going on right in front of you, the other team whines and complains. Like Mission said, they should have changed the signs so the other team can't figure it out.

I don't agree with your football analogy as it is guesswork, not signal stealing. But I do agree that stealing signs in baseball should be no big deal. All you need to do is come up with a better system of signs, one that can't be decoded so easily. And as far as tipping location off, that could be easily checked by having the catcher shift from inside to outside on a few pitches. Once the sign has been given wrong by the runner at second base, they will most likely stop doing it.
vr, Xeifrank

[KHenry14]

This isn't a guy in the bleachers making signals, as far as I'm concerned, Penny has nothing to complain about.

[YankeeDJW]

I have absolutely no problem with players stealing signs. It's part of the game. If the runner on second is quick enough to spot the signs then signal them discreetly to the batter in time for him to swing after processing the location and pitch type, than they earned whatever they get.

[natsnsoxfan]

Its part of the game. Its not like they're doctoring the ball or using a corked bat or something that is going to give them a huge advantage.

[RubeBaker]

Its part of the game. Its not like they're doctoring the ball or using a corked bat or something that is going to give them a huge advantage.

But even the corked bat is questionable as to how big an advantage it gives.

On further thought, I gotta think that maybe Green didn't do it, because nobody even suspected a thing until Penny talked to him. Even then, the announcers really weren't sure what it was about. It wasn't until penny talked about afterword that everyone went, huh?

But I will give Penny props on focusing in and striking him out, rather than plunking him. But, if you were in Penny's position, would you have beaned him? Had Penny been losing, rather than winning, would he have beaned Green?

[natsnsoxfan]

Impossible to say but it should be a non-story anyways.

[Richmond Hill Phoenix]

I really don't get why people become upset about sign-stealing. If you're not supposed to read signs, why are there elaborate signs in the first place? Your signs should be good enough so that a guy can't figure them out while he is at second base.

As for giving the location, the catcher should just tell the pitcher that he's gonna give a false location and then the problem is solved.

[The Cobb]

Managers do this from the dugout all the time. It's a part of the game. Always has been. Quit crying Penny.

[redbird73]

Paul Molitor was infamous for being able to steal another teams signs...if you're smart enough to figure them out why shouldn't you be able to use them?

Like many on here have said...I think it's a part of the game....adds a bit of fun to it.... who cares whether he was or not....makes a good story....and at least it's not another story about steroids.

[NYMets523]

I couldn't tell if he was or wasn't. I'd have to watch the game again to see but I really don't want to see that game again.

[Mattingly]

The Dodgers won by 9-1. However many signs that Shawn Green stole, it only worked once, if he even did this, and he'd scored the Mets' only run after he'd doubled and 3Bman David Wright singled him home.

As mentioned upthread by several others, stealing signs isn't illegal. Catchers can decipher pitcher's selections based upon their hand position, and sometimes the catcher will shift away from the plate right when the pitch is thrown to indicate an outside pitch. That's one thing very hard to relay to the batter once the pitch is thrown (whether the pitch will be intentionally outside based upon the catcher being a moving target by shifting away from the zone).

There are quite a few excellent sign stealers out there. Whatever gives you a competitive advantage and isn't illegal, I'd say is fine, presuming we're not talking PEDs here.

I believe there was a big sign stealing thing back around October 1951 or so. The Shot Heard Round the World may have been a part of this. ;)

[Mattingly]

I really don't get why people become upset about sign-stealing. If you're not supposed to read signs, why are there elaborate signs in the first place? Your signs should be good enough so that a guy can't figure them out while he is at second base.

As for giving the location, the catcher should just tell the pitcher that he's gonna give a false location and then the problem is solved.
Exactly. If it wasn't supposed to be encoded, don't get mad about somebody decoding it. Try hiding it better the next time.

CATCHER TO BRAD PENNY: Yo, throw me a curve ball that's JUST a bit outside! :D ;) :p

BRAD PENNY: Nope, I want something else.

CATCHER: OK, then, changeup?

PENNY: How about a breaking ball?

CATCHER: Yeah, then throw that. Let's get this game over with!

[StanTheMan]

I hope Shawn Green WAS stealing signs and his team benefitted from it.....

If so, his stock just rose a bit in my eyes... I like it.

Now, stealing signs by mechanical means... i.e. with a telescope from the bleachers/scoreboard holes etc is another thing entirely.

Players can and should do absolutely whatever they want with their own eyes and own mind while on the field or in the dugout.

[The Cobb]

If a Yankee was stealing signs we'd all be talking about how brilliant it is. Just like if a player OTHER than Pay-wad (A Rod) ran down to third base and called "I got it" to confuse two merging infielders on a routine popfly...we'd all be talking about how dirty it was.

[flash143817]

In football, if the D-Line guess the snap count, or the defense knows what play's coming, nobody complains. In basketball, if you know who the final shot is going to, no one complains of cheating. But in baseball, if you look at something going on right in front of you, the other team whines and complains. Like Mission said, they should have changed the signs so the other team can't figure it out.


This isn't entirely true. There was a game last year where the Dolphins supposedly "acquired" a video telling them what terminology the Patriots used for certain audibles and check-offs. There was a big backlash in the public, and it was not seen as a positive thing at all, if it was true. The Dolphins at first basically admitted to it, and then once they found out how negative the response was, they tried to deny it.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

So whats the big deal. I can't believe that a player, any player could complain about a runner on second stealing signs... or player in the dugout stealing signs, or any player on the field in any location. Why don't these guys that complain grow up, it's part of the game.

This is one of the reasons for changing signs with a runner on second. More power to any player who can benefit his team by stealing any signs be it from the catcher or one of the base coaches.

[Mariano_Rivera]

Amazing, all that controversy about A-Rod's "HA" and this gets hardly mentioned on ESPN.....

[ReignInBlood]

Amazing, all that controversy about A-Rod's "HA" and this gets hardly mentioned on ESPN.....

Yah, if this was A-Rod this topic would be 10 pages long filled with posts about how dirty A-Rod is.:dance

[NYMets523]

Amazing, all that controversy about A-Rod's "HA" and this gets hardly mentioned on ESPN.....

It's very different. A-Rod obviously did it. Green was accused of it with no proof. Saying something on the basepaths is an unwritten rule. If you can decipher signs, then use it to your advantage, all the Pitcher/catcher need to do is change signs and tell the baserunner to stop.

[Mattingly]

It's very different. A-Rod obviously did it. Green was accused of it with no proof. Saying something on the basepaths is an unwritten rule. If you can decipher signs, then use it to your advantage, all the Pitcher/catcher need to do is change signs and tell the baserunner to stop.
Can they tell the baserunner to stop? To me, unless it's something you can complain to an ump about (as in being specifically mentioned in the rules book), I'm not sure they could ask someone to stop.

To me, you can have one set of signs for the batter at the plate, then change them again for the next ones.

[Williamsburg2599]

Amazing, all that controversy about A-Rod's "HA" and this gets hardly mentioned on ESPN.....

Most likely because it was a west coast team. If the was anyone on the Sox or Yankees, they would most likely have an ESPN original movie already in production.

[NYMets523]

Can they tell the baserunner to stop? To me, unless it's something you can complain to an ump about (as in being specifically mentioned in the rules book), I'm not sure they could ask someone to stop.

To me, you can have one set of signs for the batter at the plate, then change them again for the next ones.

During the game, Ron Darling said if a pitcher thinks a baserunner is doing it, they will turn to them and tell them to stop. Though I think it's more common for the pitcher to call the catcher up and change the signs if they suspect it.

[Mariano_Rivera]

Most likely because it was a west coast team. If the was anyone on the Sox or Yankees, they would most likely have an ESPN original movie already in production.

It was the Mets though

[SHOELESSJOE3]

During the game, Ron Darling said if a pitcher thinks a baserunner is doing it, they will turn to them and tell them to stop. Though I think it's more common for the pitcher to call the catcher up and change the signs if they suspect it.


Tell the base runner to stop.... Ronnie, thats as funny as it gets.

[NYMets523]

Tell the base runner to stop.... Ronnie, thats as funny as it gets.

I watched the game again and I misquoted him. He said the pitcher will turn to the baserunner look at them and sometimes he will tell them to stop. But most of the time the catcher and pitcher will change signs.

[wilkerson_rulz-06]

And what's the big deal if he did?

Everyone's stealing signs these days.

But :shhh:, no one knows. :D

[Richmond Hill Phoenix]

Most likely because it was a west coast team. If the was anyone on the Sox or Yankees, they would most likely have an ESPN original movie already in production.:laugh Too funny...

[Williamsburg2599]

It was the Mets though

True, but the Mets don't get as near as much ESPN time as the Sox or the Yankees. In fact, most of the NL doesn't, unless it's the Cubs..... and they're fighting someone or themselves.

[Elvis]

I don't see what the big deal is about either green stealing signs or Penny saying something about it. It's not like Penny's filing a protest or complaining to the umps about it. Players jaw at each other and with umpires all the time over this and that. I think this thread is making a mountain out of a goosebump. :confused:

[sanket]

But even the corked bat is questionable as to how big an advantage it gives.

On further thought, I gotta think that maybe Green didn't do it, because nobody even suspected a thing until Penny talked to him. Even then, the announcers really weren't sure what it was about. It wasn't until penny talked about afterword that everyone went, huh?

But I will give Penny props on focusing in and striking him out, rather than plunking him. But, if you were in Penny's position, would you have beaned him? Had Penny been losing, rather than winning, would he have beaned Green?

Would have beaned him.

[AutographCollector]

Would have beaned him.

Yep! That would have solved things! :rolleyes: