Kei Igawa update

[wilkerson_rulz-06]

Igawa's "adjustment" stint in the minors is actually shaping up very well, he's in Scranton Wilkes-Barre right now, AAA, and he's doing very well.

Scranton Wilkers-Barre numbers: 1-2, 3.32 ERA, 19 IP, 19 H, 23 K, 5 BB, 7 ER, .260 against
Lower levels: 1-1, 2.00 ERA, 9 IP, 7 H, 6 K, 3 BB, 2 ER, .206 against

For a total of 2-3, 2.89 ERA, 28 IP, 26 H, 29 K, 8 BB, 9 ER, .243 against.

That's looking mighty strong, time to call Kei up and get rid of some of that minor league in your rotatiom.

[DoubleX]

Igawa's "adjustment" stint in the minors is actually shaping up very well, he's in Scranton Wilkes-Barre right now, AAA, and he's doing very well.

Scranton Wilkers-Barre numbers: 1-2, 3.32 ERA, 19 IP, 19 H, 23 K, 5 BB, 7 ER, .260 against
Lower levels: 1-1, 2.00 ERA, 9 IP, 7 H, 6 K, 3 BB, 2 ER, .206 against

For a total of 2-3, 2.89 ERA, 28 IP, 26 H, 29 K, 8 BB, 9 ER, .243 against.

That's looking mighty strong, time to call Kei up and get rid of some of that minor league shiznit in your rotatiom.

The only rookie in the Yankees rotation right now is 22 year old Tyler Clippard, and he's done fairly well, sporting a 3.60 ERA in 20 IP in the big leagues, though he has been hit a bit.

[TonyStarks]

The only rookie in the Yankees rotation right now is 22 year old Tyler Clippard, and he's done fairly well, sporting a 3.60 ERA in 20 IP in the big leagues, though he has been hit a bit.

You still have to respect a Yankee rookie pitcher with a 3-1 record sporting a 3.60 ERA.

He's the 5th starter. And he's pitched MUCH MUCH better than Kei has all season long.

[monkey333]

Clippard > Igawa

I'll be very dissapointed if the team goes back to Kei while T-Clip is still pitching well just because of the money invested in him. But kudos to Nardi Contreas to fixing our Igawa.

[Mariano_Rivera]

What scares me is the surplus of pitching this team has. I`d call him up as a reliever. I`d do the same with Britton. Myers and Vizcaino should be sent down

[monkey333]

I hadn't thought of Kei in the pen. He'd probably be a better Loogy/Longman than Myers/Henn/Villowned.

[JordanDL3891]

I agree, if Villone needs to clear waivers or somthin, let him go, along with Vizcaino - thats what I do.

I think Cashman is afraid of more injuries, so he doesn't want to get rid of those guys yet.

[RubeBaker]

I like the idea of Kei in the pen. Unless you want Scott Proctor pitching another 100+ innings this year, it wouldn't be a bad idea to have Kei as a long reliever/spot starter.

The only problem is, who do you send down to bring him up?

[ChrisLDuncan]

I hadn't thought of Kei in the pen. He'd probably be a better Loogy/Longman than Myers/Henn/Villowned.

I've been suggesting that for a while now, right now we don't need him here unless we insist on having two lefties which IMO is dumb. Maybe if he does well as a reliever (which at the rate Torre goes to the pen that's starter's work anyways) maybe there is a possibility down the road. Right now IMO we should have the pen that consists of:

Igawa
Britton
Bruney
Henn/Myers/Villone(take your pick...always nice to have two lefties in the pen)
Proctor
Rivera

Possibly Clippard if Hughes is able to make a full return.

[Yankeebiscuitfan]

I like the idea of Kei in the pen. Unless you want Scott Proctor pitching another 100+ innings this year, it wouldn't be a bad idea to have Kei as a long reliever/spot starter.

The only problem is, who do you send down to bring him up?


That one's is simple to answer...

What about Kyle Farnsworthless or Ron Villan, ooops Villone.

[Mattingly]

What scares me is the surplus of pitching this team has. I`d call him up as a reliever. I`d do the same with Britton. Myers and Vizcaino should be sent down
To me, given the $26m investment (even though they likely could've had him for $20m or so), Igawa's #5 spot is likely his to lose. If he performs well, fine. If not, then I'd suggest another AAA stint.

Clippard seems to be adjusting nicely. If they were both on equal footing re investment, I'd have Igawa being the longman/spot starter if he were effective. However, since Igawa has been designated as a starter, I'd let Clippard work from the pen and if he can get going and give us 3 innings to rest everyone else, then that's fine.

For some strange reason, I, Carnac the Magnificent, foresees the Yankees eventually ignoring whoever has had more invested in him and in order to get the best results, predicts that it will be Clippard in the rotation and Igawa in the pen. Who cares how much you've bid for a #5 starter or a longman! Let's go win some ball games, then go out and win some more! :D ;) :p

[clipper]

That one's is simple to answer...

What about Kyle Farnsworthless or Ron Villan, ooops Villone.

I feel we should cut our loses with Farnsworth as a mistake and trade him. I always feel pitching prospects (LHP) are like money in the bank. The only way I like him is when we have a 6 run lead (yesterday). I think he had a walk.

Ron should be let go. I am not a fan.

I would replace Vizcaino with Igawa but I still concerned. I only seen one good game in which Igawa came in when Karsten broke his leg. I think it was the only game we won with BoSox.

I really like Clippard and wish him well tonight. I like him better than Moose at this point and would not mind Wang, Andy, Clemens, Hughes, Clippard.

I feel we need a better long reliever 3-5 innings to stop these 1 innings outings that kills our pen - Igawa. and bring back Britton for Meyers and go with Henn. First year and he'd done a decent job.

Clipper

[Mattingly]

I like the idea of Kei in the pen. Unless you want Scott Proctor pitching another 100+ innings this year, it wouldn't be a bad idea to have Kei as a long reliever/spot starter.

The only problem is, who do you send down to bring him up?
Can't answer that, but here's the Active Roster (http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com/team/roster_active.jsp?c_id=nyy)

Yankee bullpen:

Brian Bruney (L)
Kyle Farnsworthless (R)
Sean Henn (L)
Mike Myers (L)
Scott Proctor (R)
Ron Villone (L)
Luis Vizcaino (R)
Mo (R)

Related article:

Notes: Henn beats out Britton
Lefty reliever remains on Yankees roster as Clemens returns (http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070609&content_id=2015896&vkey=news_nyy&fext=.jsp&c_id=nyy)

[Mattingly]

I feel we should cut our loses with Farnsworth as a mistake and trade him. I always feel pitching prospects (LHP) are like money in the bank. The only way I like him is when we have a 6 run lead (yesterday). I think he had a walk.

Ron should be let go. I am not a fan.

I would replace Vizcaino with Igawa but I still concerned. I only seen one good game in which Igawa came in when Karsten broke his leg. I think it was the only game we won with BoSox.

I really like Clippard and wish him well tonight. I like him better than Moose at this point and would not mind Wang, Andy, Clemens, Hughes, Clippard.

I feel we need a better long reliever 3-5 innings to stop these 1 innings outings that kills our pen - Igawa. and bring back Britton for Meyers and go with Henn. First year and he'd done a decent job.

Clipper
It all depends. I can see Vizcaino as being less reliable than Farns. Once Phil Hughes and Igawa both return, we'll have an overflow with either Igawa or Clippard in the pen or rotation, I believe that it would be up to Torre to move Farns out of the setup role, moving him into middle relief, add Proctor as the setup, then move either Clippard or Igawa into the MR/Long/spot start role.

Whoever's performed well should be kept and whoever hasn't should be traded. I'm not sure if anyone will be DFA'd, but I can see a few guys being sent down to the farm if the rules allow.

I believe that Clemens' relaunch is significant, since it frees up a roster spot to go to the pen, and Igawa's returning will also free up either spot. Once Hughes returns, we'll have more strength from the arms:

Wang
Clemens
Pettitte
Moose
Hughes

If this puts Clippard & Igawa into the pen, so be it. Can you imagine how sick and filthy our pen would be with Mo, and the bridge leading to him backed up by Proctor, Clippard and Igawa?! Who says that Yankee pitching isn't what it used to be! :D

[Mariano_Rivera]

Can't answer that, but here's the Active Roster (http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com/team/roster_active.jsp?c_id=nyy)

Yankee bullpen:

Brian Bruney (L)
Kyle Farnsworthless (R) Trade him and replace him with Britton
Sean Henn (L)
Mike Myers (L) Release or send down or trade him and replace him with Igawa
Scott Proctor (R)
Ron Villone (L)
Luis Vizcaino (R) Release or send down or trade him and replace him with Edwar Ramirez
Mo (R)

Related article:

Notes: Henn beats out Britton
Lefty reliever remains on Yankees roster as Clemens returns (http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070609&content_id=2015896&vkey=news_nyy&fext=.jsp&c_id=nyy)

---------------------------------------

[Yankee Legend]

Wow 13 pitchers?? That's a bit excessive. I don't think we need 8 relievers just 5 or 6 good ones. I think Igawa needs some more minor league time so that he can last for 6-7 innings rather than his costumary 3-4. Another note, we should make a trade to get good position player prospects.

[Yankeebiscuitfan]

To me, given the $26m investment (even though they likely could've had him for $20m or so), Igawa's #5 spot is likely his to lose. If he performs well, fine. If not, then I'd suggest another AAA stint.

Clippard seems to be adjusting nicely. If they were both on equal footing re investment, I'd have Igawa being the longman/spot starter if he were effective. However, since Igawa has been designated as a starter, I'd let Clippard work from the pen and if he can get going and give us 3 innings to rest everyone else, then that's fine.

For some strange reason, I, Carnac the Magnificent, foresees the Yankees eventually ignoring whoever has had more invested in him and in order to get the best results, predicts that it will be Clippard in the rotation and Igawa in the pen. Who cares how much you've bid for a #5 starter or a longman! Let's go win some ball games, then go out and win some more! :D ;) :p



I sure hope you are right, but I fear that money talks. So Igawa will regain his fifth starter spot. :grouchy

It is the same with Melky. As soon as Damon has recovered he will be back in center. Even though Melky is the better defensive player.

[monkey333]

Related article:

Notes: Henn beats out Britton
Lefty reliever remains on Yankees roster as Clemens returns (http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070609&content_id=2015896&vkey=news_nyy&fext=.jsp&c_id=nyy)
Lol, Henn Beats out Britton? The only thing Henn has over Britton is the key to Torre's heart.

[Mattingly]

I sure hope you are right, but I fear that money talks. So Igawa will regain his fifth starter spot. :grouchy

It is the same with Melky. As soon as Damon has recovered he will be back in center. Even though Melky is the better defensive player.
Clippard didn't do too well today, but the Yanks won despite this. *FINALLY* the bats are heating up. 2 weeks ago, 6 opposing runs scored would've meant we'd lose by 6-3 at best. Imagine a faulty closer going 4-up, 3-down and getting another save.

Anyway, re Igawa, it all depends upon what happens. He'd looked pretty good one game he'd done in relief. In that, Guidry told him to be aggressive, rather than passive. Someone (John Sterling) mentioned that some Japanese pitchers weren't taught to not be aggressive, and I believe that was throwing to the catcher, rather than challenging the batter. Anyway, if he can challenge guys and have enough stuff to do that, he may be a keeper. I'm willing to be pleasantly surprised.

For Melky, I think we'd be very much a better team if Jason Giambi were out of the picture altogether. That way, the DH spot would be open. Right now, I see the musical chairs thing going this way (ideally):

LF: Matsui, Damon
CF: Melkman
1B: Phelps, Cairo (backup/late inning defense)
DH: Matsui, Damon, Giambi, Phelps

I don't see any reason why Giambi needs to play 1B again unless his hitting has fallen off the radar screen and we're ahead in that particular game. I don't care if it's against the Red Sox, Mets, TB, KC or whoever. We have to be ahead in that game and Cairo hasn't yet played so he can be inserted at 1B.

On Saturday, Damon was the DH, so if Matsui plays LF, that's fine. I wouldn't consider it a platoon, as they're both lefties. I think it's a matter of sharing the spot.

Now then, can Matsui stop grounding out to 2B so often? It's as if all they need out there sometimes is a pitcher, catcher, 2Bman and 1Bman to get him out. :silent: :o :( :rant

[SteveNYY]

If phelps is gonna DH sometimes he needs to get more play at first too.. I dont wanna put him up there at DH once every 4-5 days without playing otherwise.. hes shown he cant produce in spot appearances

I'll vomit if Igawa comes back sending Clippard back

[Mariano_Rivera]

If phelps is gonna DH sometimes he needs to get more play at first too.. I dont wanna put him up there at DH once every 4-5 days without playing otherwise.. hes shown he cant produce in spot appearances

I'll vomit if Igawa comes back sending Clippard back

I think he's shown that he can hit. I wouldn't mind using him as a DH and Damon at first once Cairo remembers it isn't 2004 anymore :D

If Clippard doesn't pitch decent in his next start though I might bring up Igawa. He does have an ERA over 5.00

[SteveNYY]

Well, he didnt have an ERA over 5 til he got rocked that one time.. every pitcher gets shelled every once in a while, he just hasnt had enough starts yet to negate that when it comes to ERA.. look at Mo's era too lol

[SteveNYY]

And yea Phelps has shown he can hit, but hes also shown he needs to be an every day player (or close to it) in order to hit when he does get time.. once a week just doesnt work for him- he needs the flow of constant play to get into his rhythm

[Mariano_Rivera]

Well, he didnt have an ERA over 5 til he got rocked that one time.. every pitcher gets shelled every once in a while, he just hasnt had enough starts yet to negate that when it comes to ERA.. look at Mo's era too lol

Here's a chart of Clippard's ERA through the season:

[Mariano_Rivera]

And yea Phelps has shown he can hit, but hes also shown he needs to be an every day player (or close to it) in order to hit when he does get time.. once a week just doesnt work for him- he needs the flow of constant play to get into his rhythm

In his brief playing time he has batted .270/.333/.378/.244 (BA/OBP/SLG%/EQA). I have to agree with you here. However, these numbers come in a small sample size so he could easily turn this around.

How does every thread somehow become a discussion of the first base situation?

[SteveNYY]

Hes only had like 5 starts lol.. other than his last start hes been great

[Mariano_Rivera]

Hes only had like 5 starts lol.. other than his last start hes been great

On May 20 he gave up one run in 6 innings against the Mets. He struck out six guys and walked 3 people. Obviously that was a great start.

On May 25 he gave up 3 runs in 4 innings against the Angels (I was at that game). He struck out one man and had no BB's. I`d say that was a pretty bad start. It wasn't terrible but it was still pretty bad.

On May 30 he gave up 3 runs in 5 innings pitched. He had 3 strike outs and 5 walks. The runs allowed are decieving. he walked almost twice as many men as he struck out. That was a bad start.

On June 5 he gave up one run in five innings. he struck out four and walked 3. THat was a decent start.

One his most recent start he allowed 6 runs in 3.2 IP and struck out 2 and walked 3. A terrible start.

So he had 3 poor starts and 2 good ones. If he has another one he has to be sent back down.

[SteveNYY]

that June 5 start, do you not remember that? everyone on here was chastising torre for taking him out.. he pitched very very well that night.. he wasnt that bad in that Angels start either, i was also there, pitch count got up so they had to pull him but he wasnt that bad

you cant really be trying to tell me that clippard doesnt deserve the #5 spot in our rotation right now.. and igawa should replace him? go thru igawa's starts!!

[Mariano_Rivera]

that June 5 start, do you not remember that? everyone on here was chastising torre for taking him out.. he pitched very very well that night.. he wasnt that bad in that Angels start either, i was also there, pitch count got up so they had to pull him but he wasnt that bad

you cant really be trying to tell me that clippard doesnt deserve the #5 spot in our rotation right now.. and igawa should replace him? go thru igawa's starts!!

I said that the June 5 start was a good one. The Angels start his pitch count wasn't so high that he had to be taken out in the middle of the fourth inning.

Igawa is a different pitcher now.

[SteveNYY]

you said it was a decent start, it was a great start, possibly his best

if clippard went down to the minors he'd put up numbers just like igawa

[Mariano_Rivera]

you said it was a decent start, it was a great start, possibly his best

if clippard went down to the minors he'd put up numbers just like igawa

Not as good as his Mets start. Fine it was a very good start he stil has more bad starts than good ones

Last year in AA Clippard had a 3.35 ERA with a 3.18 K/BB. Igawa in AAA so far has a 3.32 ERA with a 4.60 K/BB. Remember this is AA and AAA.

[SteveNYY]

those are similar numbers and clippard isnt a strikeout-relying guy as much as igawa is.. k/bb ratio is not the way to distinguish pitchers, esp. if those are numbers from the minors lol.. igawa had 0 good starts (maybe a little exaggeration)

[Mariano_Rivera]

those are similar numbers and clippard isnt a strikeout-relying guy as much as igawa is.. k/bb ratio is not the way to distinguish pitchers, esp. if those are numbers from the minors lol.. igawa had 0 good starts (maybe a little exaggeration)

Yeah but Igawa did that in AAA and Clippard did that in AA. K/BB has a very high correlation to future success by pitchers.

[SteveNYY]

instead of looking at friggin minor league numbers look at the MLB numbers which is all that matters. who cares what igawa's doing in the minors if hes gonna come up and do the same stuff he did last time-nothing.. any struggling pitcher in the majors could go perform in the minors lol

[Mariano_Rivera]

instead of looking at friggin minor league numbers look at the MLB numbers which is all that matters. who cares what igawa's doing in the minors if hes gonna come up and do the same stuff he did last time-nothing.. any struggling pitcher in the majors could go perform in the minors lol

Nardi Contreras and Bill Connors have been working on his mechanics while he's been in the minors though. Igawa in the minors isn't the same pitcher as before he was sent down. He's a better pitcher now. The minor league numbers show that the changes are helping.

[SteveNYY]

And that's to say that when he's facing david ortiz instead of joe schmoe he's gonna be a better pitcher? Clippard is working right now, don't mess with that!

[Mariano_Rivera]

On May 20 he gave up one run in 6 innings against the Mets. He struck out six guys and walked 3 people. Obviously that was a great start.

On May 25 he gave up 3 runs in 4 innings against the Angels (I was at that game). He struck out one man and had no BB's. I`d say that was a pretty bad start. It wasn't terrible but it was still pretty bad.

On May 30 he gave up 3 runs in 5 innings pitched. He had 3 strike outs and 5 walks. The runs allowed are decieving. he walked almost twice as many men as he struck out. That was a bad start.

On June 5 he gave up one run in five innings. he struck out four and walked 3. THat was a decent start.

One his most recent start he allowed 6 runs in 3.2 IP and struck out 2 and walked 3. A terrible start.

So he had 3 poor starts and 2 good ones. If he has another one he has to be sent back down.


And that's to say that when he's facing david ortiz instead of joe schmoe he's gonna be a better pitcher? Clippard is working right now, don't mess with that!

He's had two great starts and three poor starts. That doesn't mean Clippard is working. I`d give Clippard another start but if he doesn't pitch well I`d send him down and call up Igawa. Igawa is not the same pitcher. He is a better pitcher. Past numbers don't always mean a lot if the pitcher has changed the way he pitches. Ideally Clippard pitches well and Igawa can work on his change some more with Nardi Contreras but if Clippard pitches poorly than I believe Igawa will become a better option

[SteveNYY]

So that means Igawa, whose gonna come into the bigs with a new pitching style that he's never even tried against major league hitters, is gonna work better then Clip is right now? No..

From your 5 starter,
3-1, 24 IP, 24 H, 14 R, 14 BB, 16 K..... Im having no problem with that and the way he's pitching. Its undeniable he's helped us out and given us a bit of a spark

[Mariano_Rivera]

So that means Igawa, whose gonna come into the bigs with a new pitching style that he's never even tried against major league hitters, is gonna work better then Clip is right now? No..

From your 5 starter,
3-1, 24 IP, 24 H, 14 R, 14 BB, 16 K..... Im having no problem with that and the way he's pitching. Its undeniable he's helped us out and given us a bit of a spark

Sure why not? He's putting up minor league numbers much much better than Clippard has.

From a five starter it isn't a huge deal but I believe Igawa can do better than that.

[SteveNYY]

Ok then we'll just agree to disagree lol

All im sayin is this... Clippard is working better than his numbers show (his ERA got blown up in his last start and he doesnt have enough innings yet to even that out) and it would be a mistake to take him out right now.. I know we have Igawa and paid a lot for him and he's got the potential, but Clippard has shown hes got a lot of potential himself.. Igawa's gotten a chance, Clippard deserves it too

[Mariano_Rivera]

Ok then we'll just agree to disagree lol

All im sayin is this... Clippard is working better than his numbers show (his ERA got blown up in his last start and he doesnt have enough innings yet to even that out) and it would be a mistake to take him out right now.. I know we have Igawa and paid a lot for him and he's got the potential, but Clippard has shown hes got a lot of potential himself.. Igawa's gotten a chance, Clippard deserves it too

Numbers don't lie, but your perception isn't always the truth. Clippard has not just had one bad start he has more bad ones than good ones. I`m a big fan of Clippard and I think he can be a very good pitcher one day but I don't think he's ready yet,

[farmsystem]

As a fan of a team I definitely would like to have 5 lights out starters but that is rare. The 5th spot in the starting rotation will always be up for grabs. Whoever pitches well will get that spot in the rotation.

[SteveNYY]

The 5th spot doesnt always have to be up for grabs lol its not suppose to be

So why isnt Mussina being sent down? he's had more bad starts then good ones lol

[Mariano_Rivera]

The 5th spot doesnt always have to be up for grabs lol its not suppose to be

So why isnt Mussina being sent down? he's had more bad starts then good ones lol

Not many teams have a decent pitcher for a 5th starter though.

Good point, Mussina has had 6 good starts (I`m counting his injury shortened one were he had 2 IP and no runs allowed as a good one) and 4 bad ones. Not counting his injury shortened start he has 5 good ones and 4 bad ones. Still more good than bad.

[farmsystem]

Cause he's not the 5th starter lol.

[SteveNYY]

Im not suggesting Mussina should really be sent down, im just making the point that Clippard shouldnt be

Clippard has had 3 good starts, 1 bad one, and 1 in which he got taken out before it became bad

[Mariano_Rivera]

Cause he's not the 5th starter lol.

What? I wouldn''t send him down because he has pitched better than both Clippard and Igawa what does Mussina have to do with this anyway?

[SteveNYY]

if youre gonna go by your having more good starts than bad starts... clippard has had more good starts than bad ones lol

igawa's got 3 good ones and 3 MISERABLE ones

[Mariano_Rivera]

if youre gonna go by your having more good starts than bad starts... clippard has had more good starts than bad ones lol

igawa's got 3 good ones and 3 MISERABLE ones

No, as I showed you before Clippard has 3 poor ones and two good ones. Igawa is a new pitcher now to.

[farmsystem]

I didn't bring Mussina into the discussion it was good ol SteveNYY lol. I'm just an innocent bystander caught in the crossfire lol.

What? I wouldn''t send him down because he has pitched better than both Clippard and Igawa what does Mussina have to do with this anyway?

[SteveNYY]

I brought in mussina just to say that hes had as many bad starts too (which i was wrong about cause i forgot hes had 2 good ones in a row now)

Clippard game by game

6 IP, 3 H, 1 R..... good start (esp. vs the mets)
4 IP, 6 H, 3 R.... the one in which he got taken out before it got too bad
5 IP, 4 H, 3 R... and a win... good start
5 IP, 5 h, 1 R.... good start
3.2 IP, 6 H, 6 R... bad start

youre wrong lol

[Mariano_Rivera]

I brought in mussina just to say that hes had as many bad starts too (which i was wrong about cause i forgot hes had 2 good ones in a row now)

Clippard game by game

6 IP, 3 H, 1 R..... good start (esp. vs the mets)
4 IP, 6 H, 3 R.... the one in which he got taken out before it got too bad
5 IP, 4 H, 3 R... and a win... good start
5 IP, 5 h, 1 R.... good start
3.2 IP, 6 H, 6 R... bad start

youre wrong lol


On May 20 he gave up one run in 6 innings against the Mets. He struck out six guys and walked 3 people. Obviously that was a great start.

On May 25 he gave up 3 runs in 4 innings against the Angels (I was at that game). He struck out one man and had no BB's. I`d say that was a pretty bad start. It wasn't terrible but it was still pretty bad.

On May 30 he gave up 3 runs in 5 innings pitched. He had 3 strike outs and 5 walks. The runs allowed are decieving. he walked almost twice as many men as he struck out. That was a bad start.

On June 5 he gave up one run in five innings. he struck out four and walked 3. THat was a decent start.

One his most recent start he allowed 6 runs in 3.2 IP and struck out 2 and walked 3. A terrible start.

So he had 3 poor starts and 2 good ones. If he has another one he has to be sent back down.

I`m right rofl

[Mission27]

The one on May 30th was not a bad start.. and 5 IP with 1 ER isn't good enough to say its a good start? 6 innings 1 run is great and 5 innings 1 run is bad???

[Mariano_Rivera]

The one on May 30th was not a bad start.. and 5 IP with 1 ER isn't good enough to say its a good start? 6 innings 1 run is great and 5 innings 1 run is bad???

I counted it as a good one

May 20 and June 5 were counted as good ones. Two starts

May 25, May 30, and his last start were counted as bad ones. Three starts

I have a math final today so correct me if I`m wrong but isn't three a bigger number than 2?

[mikeymussina35]

I think Torre is going to make the decision on Clippard on Saturday. If he pitches good like 6 IP, 2-3 runs something like that then I doubt he will send him down. There will not be anymore of Matt DeSalvo this season also. If Clippard, has another repeated start like against the Pirates I can see Igawa being called up and Tyler being sent down!:nod: :nod: :nod: :nod:

[Mariano_Rivera]

Igawa had another decent start yesterday

[Mission27]

I counted it as a good one

May 20 and June 5 were counted as good ones. Two starts

May 25, May 30, and his last start were counted as bad ones. Three starts

I have a math final today so correct me if I`m wrong but isn't three a bigger number than 2?

Are you serious? Look what you just said.. you said you conuted May 30th as a good start and now you just counted it as a bad start... dude are you kidding me

[TonyStarks]

Are you serious? Look what you just said.. you said you conuted May 30th as a good start and now you just counted it as a bad start... dude are you kidding me

I see May 20th as a Good and May 30th as Bad. :confused:

[Mission27]

Can you read? Im saying that he originally said May 30th was a bad start, then i said it was a good one and he agreed, then he said it was a bad start again

[Mission27]

Youre proving my point that he contradicted himself and May 30th was a good start, giving Clippard more good starts than bad ones.

[Mariano_Rivera]

The one on May 30th was not a bad start.. and 5 IP with 1 ER isn't good enough to say its a good start? 6 innings 1 run is great and 5 innings 1 run is bad???

I thought you meant May 20 now the 30th. The 20th was good but the 30th was bad. You mixed them up. lol


On May 20 he gave up one run in 6 innings against the Mets. He struck out six guys and walked 3 people. Obviously that was a great start.

On May 25 he gave up 3 runs in 4 innings against the Angels (I was at that game). He struck out one man and had no BB's. I`d say that was a pretty bad start. It wasn't terrible but it was still pretty bad.

On May 30 he gave up 3 runs in 5 innings pitched. He had 3 strike outs and 5 walks. The runs allowed are decieving. he walked almost twice as many men as he struck out. That was a bad start.

On June 5 he gave up one run in five innings. he struck out four and walked 3. THat was a decent start.

One his most recent start he allowed 6 runs in 3.2 IP and struck out 2 and walked 3. A terrible start.

So he had 3 poor starts and 2 good ones. If he has another one he has to be sent back down.

[Mission27]

Oh my god.

I didn't mix them up, i've been saying all along that the May 30th start was a good one (giving him more good starts than bad ones).... are you just disregarding all my posts haha you gotta be kidding me

[Mariano_Rivera]

Oh my god.

I didn't mix them up, i've been saying all along that the May 30th start was a good one (giving him more good starts than bad ones).... are you just disregarding all my posts haha you gotta be kidding me

He walked almost twice as many people as he struck out? Are you kidding me?

[Mission27]

And gave up 3 runs in a winning effort for his team.. Id say that's a good start.

Not like he walked 8 guys lol he was able to work himself out of a decent amount of trouble in that game

[Mariano_Rivera]

And gave up 3 runs in a winning effort for his team.. Id say that's a good start.

Not like he walked 8 guys lol he was able to work himself out of a decent amount of trouble in that game

Nobody survives long term giving up more BB's than K's.

[Mission27]

Clippard did that in 2 games

3 BB, 6 K
0 BB, 1 K
5 BB, 3 K
3 BB, 4 K
3 BB, 2 K

More often good then bad if that's a measure youre gonna rely on right now cause nothing else is workin for ya lol.. The guy isn't walking an incredible amount of batters to the point where that's a reason to send him down

And even so.. we're talking about 1 game there not long term lol

If he was a strikeout pitcher itd be more important that he doesn't walk more guys lol he's not tho, neither number is ever gonna be very high

[Mariano_Rivera]

Clippard did that in 2 games

3 BB, 6 K
0 BB, 1 K
5 BB, 3 K
3 BB, 4 K
3 BB, 2 K

More often good then bad if that's a measure youre gonna rely on right now cause nothing else is workin for ya lol.. The guy isn't walking an incredible amount of batters to the point where that's a reason to send him down

And even so.. we're talking about 1 game there not long term lol

If he was a strikeout pitcher itd be more important that he doesn't walk more guys lol he's not tho, neither number is ever gonna be very high


No, actually every reasonable measure of skill goes with me. He has an ERA over 5.00 on the season, more bad starts than good ones, a 42% GB%, and most importantly a 1.14 K/BB. You don't have a single logical reason in saying that Clippard is a better option than Igawa

[Mariano_Rivera]

Clippard did that in 2 games

3 BB, 6 K
0 BB, 1 K
5 BB, 3 K
3 BB, 4 K
3 BB, 2 K

More often good then bad if that's a measure youre gonna rely on right now cause nothing else is workin for ya lol.. The guy isn't walking an incredible amount of batters to the point where that's a reason to send him down

And even so.. we're talking about 1 game there not long term lol

If he was a strikeout pitcher itd be more important that he doesn't walk more guys lol he's not tho, neither number is ever gonna be very high

And 3 of his starts he has had a horrible K/BB. That's not an exxageration either.

[Mission27]

His ERA is inflamed right now cause of his last start, are you gonna argue that? lol

He's not the kind of pitcher that's gonna strike out a ton of guys so that lessens the importance of the k/bb ratio.. If a guy strikes out 1 guy and walks 2, that makes it a bad game? Even if he's, say, someone like Wang last year who didnt strike out practically anyone?

And I disagree, as ive said about 12 times now, that he's had more bad starts than good ones.. and anyone I knows agrees with me on that one

Not a single reason why he's a better option? Why did Igawa get sent down? Cause he showed nothing... nothing. Before his last start, Clippard was having a good year and Torre loves him.. Other players on the team have publically said they like Clippard and what he's brought..

[Mariano_Rivera]

His ERA is inflamed right now cause of his last start, are you gonna argue that? lol

He's not the kind of pitcher that's gonna strike out a ton of guys so that lessens the importance of the k/bb ratio.. If a guy strikes out 1 guy and walks 2, that makes it a bad game? Even if he's, say, someone like Wang last year who didnt strike out practically anyone?

And I disagree, as ive said about 12 times now, that he's had more bad starts than good ones.. and anyone I knows agrees with me on that one

Not a single reason why he's a better option? Why did Igawa get sent down? Cause he showed nothing... nothing. Before his last start, Clippard was having a good year and Torre loves him.. Other players on the team have publically said they like Clippard and what he's brought..

Absolutely, did you look at the chart I showed you? He's had a below average ERA 50% of his time up here. In three of his 5 starts he had a below average ERA. Wang at least had huge GB tendencies which Clippard has not displayed in the majors. Wang also had a much much better K/BB than Clippard.



Igawa is a new pitcher now. In the minors he's shown a lot. Torre is also a moron. What do you expect them to say, I hate Clippard and Ithink he's hurting the team? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Mariano_Rivera]

Still want Clippard in the rotation? 4 bad starts now and two good ones.

[sanket]

Tell you guys what, I'm getting really sick of Tyler Clippard right now. This is two bad starts in a row right now, I know he's playing against a good team but looks who's hitting off him. Some Ruben Gotay guy is 2 for 2 with a homer and an RBI. Ramon Castro has a homerun off him. He lasted 3 and a third against the Mets giving up 5 runs, 5 hits, 3 walks. If I'm Joe Torre I take him out of the rotation right now. Here's what I believe the Yankees pitching staff should like like after today.

Starting Pitching
Chien Ming Wang
Andy Pettitte
Mike Mussina
Roger Clemens
Kei Igawa

Relief Pitching
Sean Henn (Long Relief)
Mike Myers (Lefty Specialist)
Ron Villone (Early Middle Relief)
Luis Vizcaino (Middle Relief)
Kyle Farnsworth (Late Middle Relief)
Brian Bruney (Set Up)
Scott Proctor (Set Up)
Mariano Rivera (Closer)

This way you have 13 pitchers and 12 hitters. It's not as if the Yankees need more hitters since our line up is stacked. Our bullpen needs a lot of help right now, I'm not at all happy with it. Later in the year (July-August), this is what I think the pitching should like then.

Starting Pitching
Chien Ming Wang
Andy Pettitte
Mike Mussina
Roger Clemens
Phil Hughes

Relief Pitching
Darrell Rasner (Long Relief)
Kei Igawa (Long Relief)
Mike Myers (Lefty Specialist)
Ron Villone (Early Middle Relief)
Luis Vizcaino (Middle Relief)
Jeff Karstens (Middle Relief)
Kyle Farnsworth (Late Middle Relief)
Brian Bruney (Set Up)
Scott Procter (Set Up)
Mariano Rivera (Closer)

Right there is 10 pitchers in relief, 2 of them should be send down to the minor leagues or designated for assignment. I'd like for Kyle Farsnworth to be shown the door and Cashman pull of a trade to pick up a reliever. With the starting pitching, if Hughes has even one bad start, I believe Torre should make the switch and hand the ball to Rasner, Igawa, or Karstens. I really like Igawa and Karstens for the future of the Yankees but Rasner is on my bad side at the moment. If we can avoid injuries for the remaineder of the year I think the starting pitching would be one of the best in baseball and even better than Boston.

[monkey333]

and Cashman pull of a trade to pick up a reliever. .

He already has.

[TonyStarks]

Right there is 10 pitchers in relief, 2 of them should be send down to the minor leagues or designated for assignment. I'd like for Kyle Farsnworth to be shown the door and Cashman pull of a trade to pick up a reliever. With the starting pitching, if Hughes has even one bad start, I believe Torre should make the switch and hand the ball to Rasner, Igawa, or Karstens. I really like Igawa and Karstens for the future of the Yankees but Rasner is on my bad side at the moment. If we can avoid injuries for the remaineder of the year I think the starting pitching would be one of the best in baseball and even better than Boston.

Jeez.

Can you tell me what Rasner has done to deserve being on your bad side?

And why would you pull Hughes after ONE bad start? Do you NOT care what happens to his psyche? I'm sure that Hughes getting yanked from the rotation after one bad start is definately NOT a way to build confidence in the guy who's supposed to be the FUTURE ACE of this staff.

So according to you....Rasner=Bad but Igawa=Good?
How could you possibly trust Igawa over Rasner? All Rasner has done is perform...every time he's been given the ball.

What can you tell me about Igawa?

[DoubleX]

Jeez.

Can you tell me what Rasner has done to deserve being on your bad side?

And why would you pull Hughes after ONE bad start? Do you NOT care what happens to his psyche? I'm sure that Hughes getting yanked from the rotation after one bad start is definately NOT a way to build confidence in the guy who's supposed to be the FUTURE ACE of this staff.

So according to you....Rasner=Bad but Igawa=Good?
How could you possibly trust Igawa over Rasner? All Rasner has done is perform...every time he's been given the ball.

What can you tell me about Igawa?

You've said all I needed to say. :)

[sanket]

Jeez.

Can you tell me what Rasner has done to deserve being on your bad side?

And why would you pull Hughes after ONE bad start? Do you NOT care what happens to his psyche? I'm sure that Hughes getting yanked from the rotation after one bad start is definately NOT a way to build confidence in the guy who's supposed to be the FUTURE ACE of this staff.

So according to you....Rasner=Bad but Igawa=Good?
How could you possibly trust Igawa over Rasner? All Rasner has done is perform...every time he's been given the ball.

What can you tell me about Igawa?

Ok, I'll explain.

This season in his first start he threw into only the fifth giving up 5 earned runs off 8 hits, 2 walks, and a pair of homeruns. We lost 6-4.

Since then he's been okay. He had one start where he let up 3 runs over only 5 innings of work. He hasn't gone deep into games, he starts to let up around the 5th or 6th inning. In his last start he couldn't make a single out on the Mets giving up 2 hits which quickly turned into runs thanks to Mike Myers. He was 1-3 before leaving because of an injury.

But it goes further than that. Last year he posted an ERA of 4.43. That's about one run every two innings. I like pitcher ERA's below 4. He did not pitch well out of relief last year either.

Why would I yank Hughes after one bad start? Because we have Jeff Karstens, Kei Igawa, and Darrell Rasner in the bullpen who are available. Hughes would move to the bullpen just for the season. Next year I place him in the rotation. I don't think it will be a problem because I do believe Hughes will be lights out from the time he gets back. Am I worrying about his confidence? No, not at all, I don't care. It's not about Phil Hughes it's about the New York Yankees. Also, how do you think he got up the major leagues? He didn't do it by losing confidence everytime somebody put him down or took him out of a game.

I also very much am fond of Jeff Karstens. He also has a great career ahead of him. I hope he can stay healthy and be a big part of our future. Hughes will never be the ace of our rotation, I think he'll be our number two guy for the next 5-10 years because I don't see us letting go of Chien Ming Wang. Chien Ming Wang is the best starting pitcher in baseball and that's going to stay that way for many years.

What can I tell you about Kei Igawa? He's inconsistant. That should change once he adjusts to the major leagues just like everything will change for Dice-K Matsuzaka. In his last start Igawa gave up eight runs to a strong Mariners lineup. However, he shut down Boston throwing 6 innings without giving up an earned run and he also shut down the Athletics and and the Indians. I'll admit he's had some pretty ugly starts but I like what I've seen from him in his good starts. Igawa is going to be good, hold me to that.

[monkey333]

Why would I yank Hughes after one bad start? Because we have Jeff Karstens, Kei Igawa, and Darrell Rasner in the bullpen who are available. Hughes would move to the bullpen just for the season. Next year I place him in the rotation. I don't think it will be a problem because I do believe Hughes will be lights out from the time he gets back. Am I worrying about his confidence? No, not at all, I don't care. It's not about Phil Hughes it's about the New York Yankees. Also, how do you think he got up the major leagues? He didn't do it by losing confidence everytime somebody put him down or took him out of a game.
So if you're running the Yankees, you yank your future #1 out of the rotation after one bad start so you can stick him in the bullpen because there are three other guys who will more than likely give you worse production than Phil Hughes and whose development isn't nearly as important to the future of the franchise? If he's going to be lights out the next time in why take him out in the first place? Why toy with your young starter's development?


I also very much am fond of Jeff Karstens. He also has a great career ahead of him. I hope he can stay healthy and be a big part of our future. Hughes will never be the ace of our rotation, I think he'll be our number two guy for the next 5-10 years because I don't see us letting go of Chien Ming Wang. Chien Ming Wang is the best starting pitcher in baseball and that's going to stay that way for many years.
Jeff Karsten's future with the Yankees is very bleak. His ceiling is a #5 starter and with the young, high-ceiling arms coming up he won't stick. His best chance at having a starting job are probably for some NL team. Everything about Phil Hughes screams #1. Even if we retain Wanger for many years if Phil reaches his potential he'll easily become more productive. And no, Wang is not the best starter in baseball, and it's not that close.

[Waitinfor27]

I agree. Karstens will never be anything more than a No. 3 starter for this team. He's better suited for the National League.

But as for the Wang/Hughes discussion, right now Wang is the No. 1 starter. He will be for a very long time. Hughes may have better stuff, but he needs to get the reputation Wang has, that when he gets the ball during a losing streak, he can and usually does stop the bleeding. Until Hughes does that, Wang is the No. 1.

So how about we talk about Igawa some more?

[sanket]

So if you're running the Yankees, you yank your future #1 out of the rotation after one bad start so you can stick him in the bullpen because there are three other guys who will more than likely give you worse production than Phil Hughes and whose development isn't nearly as important to the future of the franchise? If he's going to be lights out the next time in why take him out in the first place? Why toy with your young starter's development?

Yes. I do put him in the bullpen just for this season. I give Rasner an oppurtunity, I'm not worried about the future midway through the season, I'm not worried about his chances as our future ace. If he's really as good as everybody says he is then he'll get through it. I'm not worried about the future I'm worried about catching the Boston Red Sox. We need every win and I don't feel comfortable taking a chance with Hughes after he comes off a bad outing. Maybe if it's Wang, Pettitte, Clemens, or Mussina, then I give them as many chances as their are, but not Hughes. I'm not toying with his development, I'm trying to catch the Boston Red Sox. What's more important?



Jeff Karsten's future with the Yankees is very bleak. His ceiling is a #5 starter and with the young, high-ceiling arms coming up he won't stick. His best chance at having a starting job are probably for some NL team. Everything about Phil Hughes screams #1. Even if we retain Wanger for many years if Phil reaches his potential he'll easily become more productive. And no, Wang is not the best starter in baseball, and it's not that close.

In the future I like Karstens as our bottom starting pitcher or a long relief guy. He did well last year, I never said anything about him being an ace or a number two guy. Also, five years down Chien Ming Wang will be the better pitcher. He'll be more expierenced and he just gets better every start. It's going to be one of the best 1-2 punches in the majors and I'm really excited about it. Both should post ERA's under 3 and get 20+ wins every year. Wang is no doubt the best starter in baseball. Name somebody better. I'll take Chien Ming Wang over anybody. He's got a nasty sinker, a nasty change up, and he's developing a great slider. All that compliments a 90 MPH fastball. He's got great stuff, great control, and not bad velocity.

[ChrisLDuncan]

I say we set up a restraining order for Karstens of five city blocks of 161st and River. The guy sucks, the guy you'd want instead is Darrel Rasner.

[sanket]

I say we set up a restraining order for Karstens of five city blocks of 161st and River. The guy sucks, the guy you'd want instead is Darrel Rasner.

I'll take Rasner over Karstens but I still like Karstens.

[Mariano_Rivera]

In the future I like Karstens as our bottom starting pitcher or a long relief guy. He did well last year, I never said anything about him being an ace or a number two guy. Also, five years down Chien Ming Wang will be the better pitcher. He'll be more expierenced and he just gets better every start. It's going to be one of the best 1-2 punches in the majors and I'm really excited about it. Both should post ERA's under 3 and get 20+ wins every year. Wang is no doubt the best starter in baseball. Name somebody better. I'll take Chien Ming Wang over anybody. He's got a nasty sinker, a nasty change up, and he's developing a great slider. All that compliments a 90 MPH fastball. He's got great stuff, great control, and not bad velocity.

Actually, Wang is in what are usually a players peak years. Maybe Wang really will become that good but I don't think he strikes out enough guys to be the best pitcher in baseball. I think he's a very good pitcher but not the best in baseball.

I think that we already have young guys better than Karstens in Clippard, Rasner, Wang, Hughes, Sanchez, Igawa, Chamberlain, and a few others. Even more if a lot of these draft picks are signed. I realize many of this guys will never make the majors but their will also be FA's the Yankees wil likely sign. I don't think Karstens has a future with the Yankees

[mikeymussina35]

I don't think Karstens has a future with the Yankees

Why not? Injuries?

[Mariano_Rivera]

Why not? Injuries?

Because as I posted in my previous post he is not a good enough pitcher

[sanket]

If Karstens doesn't have a future with the Yankees he'll have a future somewhere else. I'll agree that we have a great minor league pitching staff and I think that in some amount of years our starting pitching will be one of the best in the major leagues.

Wang struck out ten batters from the New York Mets. The color analyst made a good point on Chien Ming Wang last night on ESPN. He said that Wang has been using only his sinker, fastball, and change up last year and early into this year. Now, when he mixes in that fourth pitch, a pretty good developing slider, he keeps hitters even more off balance and this is going to result in more strikeouts. Chien Ming Wang was #2 in American League Cy Young voting last year losing only to Johan Santana who I think he's better than, and espically with the run support that he has behind him he's not going to lose a lot of games if he can pitch like he did last night against the Mets every night.

I also don't think age is a factor for Chien Ming Wang or any pitcher now. The times have changed and we're far more advanced now than we were then. Just look at El Duque, he could be anywhere from his late 30s to his mid 40s, nobody knows. He could be older than Roger Clemens for what anybodies knows. Other good old pitchers, Mussina, Glavine, Maddux, they all take the ball and perform every year.

As you stated, we have seven great minor league pitchers who could someday be great in the future. Hopefully five of those seven will come around, and let's not forget about that Brackmann guy we drafted. A-Rod claims that he's good enough to be on the major league club by next year. I won't buy that, but hey, that's pretty good.

[Mariano_Rivera]

If Karstens doesn't have a future with the Yankees he'll have a future somewhere else. I'll agree that we have a great minor league pitching staff and I think that in some amount of years our starting pitching will be one of the best in the major leagues.

Wang struck out ten batters from the New York Mets. The color analyst made a good point on Chien Ming Wang last night on ESPN. He said that Wang has been using only his sinker, fastball, and change up last year and early into this year. Now, when he mixes in that fourth pitch, a pretty good developing slider, he keeps hitters even more off balance and this is going to result in more strikeouts. Chien Ming Wang was #2 in American League Cy Young voting last year losing only to Johan Santana who I think he's better than, and espically with the run support that he has behind him he's not going to lose a lot of games if he can pitch like he did last night against the Mets every night.

I also don't think age is a factor for Chien Ming Wang or any pitcher now. The times have changed and we're far more advanced now than we were then. Just look at El Duque, he could be anywhere from his late 30s to his mid 40s, nobody knows. He could be older than Roger Clemens for what anybodies knows. Other good old pitchers, Mussina, Glavine, Maddux, they all take the ball and perform every year.

As you stated, we have seven great minor league pitchers who could someday be great in the future. Hopefully five of those seven will come around, and let's not forget about that Brackmann guy we drafted. A-Rod claims that he's good enough to be on the major league club by next year. I won't buy that, but hey, that's pretty good.

We also drafted guys like Peavy and Carpenter who could also end up being better than Karstens. Personally I`m not to high on him (Karstens)

[mikeymussina35]

We also drafted guys like Peavy and Carpenter who could also end up being better than Karstens. Personally I`m not to high on him

What about Rasner?? Future in NY

[monkey333]

I agree. Karstens will never be anything more than a spot starter for this team.
Fixed.


Yes. I do put him in the bullpen just for this season. I give Rasner an oppurtunity, I'm not worried about the future midway through the season, I'm not worried about his chances as our future ace. If he's really as good as everybody says he is then he'll get through it. I'm not worried about the future I'm worried about catching the Boston Red Sox. We need every win and I don't feel comfortable taking a chance with Hughes after he comes off a bad outing. Maybe if it's Wang, Pettitte, Clemens, or Mussina, then I give them as many chances as their are, but not Hughes. I'm not toying with his development, I'm trying to catch the Boston Red Sox. What's more important?
But why Rasner over Phil Hughes? Hughes would give you better production so why demote him to the bullpen? If catching the Red Sox is most important to you why would you take the guy giving you a better chance to win out of the rotation?


In the future I like Karstens as our bottom starting pitcher or a long relief guy. He did well last year, I never said anything about him being an ace or a number two guy. Also, five years down Chien Ming Wang will be the better pitcher. He'll be more expierenced and he just gets better every start. It's going to be one of the best 1-2 punches in the majors and I'm really excited about it. Both should post ERA's under 3 and get 20+ wins every year. Wang is no doubt the best starter in baseball. Name somebody better. I'll take Chien Ming Wang over anybody. He's got a nasty sinker, a nasty change up, and he's developing a great slider. All that compliments a 90 MPH fastball. He's got great stuff, great control, and not bad velocity.
Ever hear of this fellow named Johan Santana? Wang isn't in his league.


What about Rasner?? Future in NY
Very bleak. Similar to Karstens.

[Mariano_Rivera]

Very bleak. Similar to Karstens.

I think Rasner is a bit better than Karstens

[monkey333]

I think Rasner is a bit better than Karstens
As do I. The post meant that their future with the team is similar.

[sanket]

Wang's right there with Santana.

[Mariano_Rivera]

Wang's right there with Santana.

Wang's one of the few pitchers that I believe can be compared to Santana but I don't think he is as good as Santana

[monkey333]

Wang's right there with Santana.
Not even close.

[sanket]

Not even close.

Whatever you say

[Yankeebiscuitfan]

Wang's right there with Santana.

I don't know if Santana is much worse or better than Wang. Probably Santana is fanning a lot more guys than Wang. But does that make Santana a better pitcher?

Can it be that the stats of a strike out rate are a bit overrated? Of course it is a good indication how good a pitcher is.

But I think that if a pitcher makes a lot of batters hit ground balls that can be fielded, he is as effective as a guy that get a lot of K's.

And there is one more thing. Striking out a guy will cost you three pitches at least, while making a batter hit a ground ball can be done with only one pitch. So this might save one's arm too.

Just my :twocents:

[monkey333]

Whatever you say
Darn straight homie.

Santana ERA+: 143(even higher if you adjust for his start in the pen)
Wang ERA+: 119

I'm not knocking Wang, I <3 teh Wanger. Santana is just that good.

[Mariano_Rivera]

Whatever you say

The thing is that Santana is a future HoF'er in the prime of his career. Not many pitchers have matched his run of dominance the past few years. On Mike and the Maddog today they mentioned how Santana was having on off year with an ERA below 3.50.

[Lucifer]

Yea I don't know about the comparison to Johan, he's been too dominant over the last couple years.. but Wang, when he's on, can look as good

[sanket]

Yeh, and Wang is just about always "on".