Inverted W

[Billybob622]

This kid on my summer baseball team does the inverted w, almost like anthony reyes. He was throwing in the mid to high 80s, however, with little to medium control.

However, he is only about 5'4, and 105lbs. Does the inverted w, make you throw that hard?

I thought that the inverted w, also caused injury. (he was constantly moving his arm up and down, holding his elbow)

[RagArm]

I don't know what the inverted W is.

[Jake Patterson]

I don't know what the inverted W is.

Chris O'Leary has done some work on this check this out - http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/ThePitchingMechanic/Archive/ThePitchingMechanic_200704.html

It should give you an idea...

[RagArm]

Ah. Never heard it called that.

[Jake Patterson]

Ah. Never heard it called that.

By the way most agree the inverted M and W are bad for younger pitchers.

[RagArm]

I don't particularly like it because it seem to me that it would put massive stress on the shoulder and elbow. I have no evidence to back that up though.

[XFactor]

I'm sure there are other things going on that make him throw that hard, but yes it can help, but yes it does put more strain on the shoulder area

However, if the elbow is below shoulder height, it lessens the danger

[Chris O'Leary]

I don't particularly like it because it seem to me that it would put massive stress on the shoulder and elbow. I have no evidence to back that up though.

Yes it does.

It's also not necessary to throwing well or hard.

You DO NOT see the M/Inverted W in the mechanics of...

- Nolan Ryan
- Randy Johnson
- Roger Clemens
- Greg Maddux
- Tom Glavine

[Chris O'Leary]

I'm sure there are other things going on that make him throw that hard, but yes it can help, but yes it does put more strain on the shoulder area

However, if the elbow is below shoulder height, it lessens the danger

I agree with all of this.

I think that the M/Inverted W is like running a car past the red line.

It gives you a power boost for a while, but it increases the rate at which you destroy your engine (or arm).

IOW, it only works in the short term.

[Chris O'Leary]

This kid on my summer baseball team does the inverted w, almost like anthony reyes. He was throwing in the mid to high 80s, however, with little to medium control.

However, he is only about 5'4, and 105lbs. Does the inverted w, make you throw that hard?

I thought that the inverted w, also caused injury. (he was constantly moving his arm up and down, holding his elbow)

One of my 12U pitchers does this. I've been working with him all year to change his arm action. He finally seems to be listening to me and to his pitching coach.

It helps that he was extremely inconsistent with his Inverted W arm action. That made him more receptive to my suggestions.

[Chris O'Leary]

Chris O'Leary has done some work on this check this out - http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/ThePitchingMechanic/Archive/ThePitchingMechanic_200704.html

It should give you an idea...

Here's an essay that I recently completed that discusses this subject at length...

- Death To The Inverted W (http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/RethinkingPitching/Essays/DeathToTheInvertedW.html)

Here's a link to another article that discusses what I think are the right and the wrong ways to load one's scaps...

- Scapular Loading (http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/RethinkingPitching/Essays/ScapularLoading.html)

[jima]

I sent Chris a short vid of my son, who is 13, pitching. He has what Chris and others call an inverted W. That is, when he breaks and takes the ball back, his pitching hand (with ball) is below elbow and shoulder. This is the way he has always thrown the baseball...infield, outfield and pitching. He is blessed with a strong arm, but not in the class of BLove's son or others who can hit over 80mph at 13 or 14. He maxes out at 75 and throws a good 12/6 curve. He's been succesful at the travel team level a couple notches below the quality of teams that TG Coach plays. His pitching coach does not see a problem with how my son takes the ball back. His concern is what happens when he moves forward. Our coach says that you can't hurt your arm while its moving back. He believes that the inverted W can cause injury if the pitcher is not careful to synch the arm, core and legs. He is constantly working with Will on making sure that his core does not "out run" his arm since it takes longer for the arm to catch up with the inverted W motion. Will has never had an arm injury (knock on wood) therefore, I'm not going to insist that he change his natural throwing style...I do believe that he will have to work more on his mechanics than a pitcher who breaks with the ball hand up because timing will be more difficult. jima

[Encinitas]

So people want to teach breaking with the ball--hand up-- on break? Not sure why that's a good think. Are we back to making L's with the kids?

[justthefacts]

How many of you so called "experts" have Nyman's material:

Rotational Throwing For Numbies

SETPRO Instructors Throw Training Program

SETPRO Ultimate Pitching Coaches Boot Camp Houston, Texas 2006 Instructional CD

And more importantly have any of you actually used it to develop pitchers throwing 90+ MPH who are on college scholarships and or have been drafted?

I doubt anyone who has posted their "expert" critcisms of the inverted W really underderstands what it is and more importantly how to teach it.

For anyone who REALLY wants to improve, I suggest you begin by reading:

http://www.setpro.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5274&highlight=Collegiate+Baseball+News

And here's the unedited version:

http://www.setpro.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8833

[Jake Patterson]

How many of you so called "experts" have Nyman's material:
Rotational Throwing For Numbies
SETPRO Instructors Throw Training Program
SETPRO Ultimate Pitching Coaches Boot Camp Houston, Texas 2006 Instructional CD
And more importantly have any of you actually used it to develop pitchers throwing 90+ MPH who are on college scholarships and or have been drafted?
I doubt anyone who has posted their "expert" critcisms of the inverted W really underderstands what it is and more importantly how to teach it.
For anyone who REALLY wants to improve, I suggest you begin by reading:
http://www.setpro.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5274&highlight=Collegiate+Baseball+News
And here's the unedited version:
http://www.setpro.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8833

So are you suggesting the inverted M and W are good for young prepubescent arms???

[Chris O'Leary]

So are you suggesting the inverted M and W are good for young prepubescent arms???

And are you suggesting that pitchers like...

- Nolan Ryan
- Greg Maddux
- Randy Johnson
- Roger Clemens
- Sandy Koufax

...make the M or Inverted W?

[justthefacts]

So are you suggesting the inverted M and W are good for young prepubescent arms???

Do you really know know what the inverted W is?

Or is it what you "think" you know??

Again do you have and more importantly have you studied Nyman's materials?

Until you can say yes to both of these questions it is a waste of time "debating" with you or anyone else.

And while you are at it why don't you check what DMac and others think about O'leary's (thepainguy) mechanical "expertise".

http://hsbaseballweb.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1491034941/m/5661062822



bbscout
HSBBWeb Old Timer

Posted May 17, 2007 11:02 PM

quote:
Originally posted by thepainguy:

quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:
Are there any accurate statistics available of M's vs W's = shoulder and elbow injuries?


Not yet.

Everything I have is anecdotal so far.

This is one of the things I am working on for the team I am working with. They think there may be something to the "M" versus "W" distinction, but my contact isn't yet completely convinced.

However, it is interesting to look at guys who are in the HOF. You see far more W's than M's, and the guys who make the M (e.g. Drysdale) tended to have shoulder problems.

To say that Drysdale tended to have shoulder problems is nonsense.He never had any arm problems until his last year. He pitched 12 consecutive years without missing a start, which is an all time record. He pitched well over 3000 innings during that time. He had 167 complete games. His career ended because the doctors back then did not know how to repair the injury that he sustained. Clemens had shoulder surgery in the late 80's, Randy johnson has had elbow and back surgery. Greg Maddux has taken about a dozen cortizone shots. Nolan Ryan had elbow surgery. Marichal retired due to back and shoulder problems. Koufax had to call it quits due to elbow problems that would have been fixed in about a month today. Clemens, Ryan and Johnson came back due to the advances in medicine.

On your site you mention that Jeff Weaver has a delivery that should hold up.....well, he is on the DL with shoulder problems.

Tekulve, Vandermeer,Quisenberry, Myers and many other side armers never had back problems.

Heck, Smoltz has been pitching pro ball since he was drafted in 1985......you should pray that the kids you hang out with should have such a great delivery, great stuff and last as long. he is 40 years old and still throwing gas and winning.

And


bbscout
HSBBWeb Old Timer

Posted May 18, 2007 05:06 PM

Painguy, Also, on your site you list Bert Blyleven as a delivery with serious elbow and shoulder problems. Where did you come up with this???? Blyleven pitched for 22 years in the big leagues until he was 41 years old. He pitched nearly 5000 innings and had 242 complete games. He was injured one year.....at age 31 he missed most of the season and then came back to pitch 10 more years.

How long did you expect him to pitch? until he was 50?
You are handing out misinformation and it makes me hot. Using Blyleven as an example of how not to deliver a baseball is just plain dumb.

[Chris O'Leary]

Do you really know know what the inverted W is? Or is it what you "think" you know??

Again do you have and more importantly have you studied Nyman's materials?

Until you can say yes to both of these questions it is a waste of time "debating" with you or anyone else.

And while you are at it why don't you check what DMac and others think about O'leary's (thepainguy) mechanical "expertise".

Welcome Chameleon, my old friend. I recognize you by your relentless personal attacks and by your utter lack of substance.

Rather than pointing people to your master's web site and writings, which do not answer the question, why not just answer it directly?

How about starting out with a simple "Yes" or "No".

[Jake Patterson]

So are you suggesting the inverted M and W are good for young prepubescent arms???

Do you really know know what the inverted W is?
Or is it what you "think" you know??
Again do you have and more importantly have you studied Nyman's materials?
Until you can say yes to both of these questions it is a waste of time "debating" with you or anyone else.
And while you are at it why don't you check what DMac and others think about O'leary's (thepainguy) mechanical "expertise".



You didn't answer my question. Are you suggesting that the Inverted W and M is good for a young arm?

I will answer yours... Yes I do know what the inverts are. I have spent extensive time with Kenesiologists, PT's, former pro pitchers and Orthopedist specializing in sports medicine and I have yet to have one of them demonstrate that the exessive strains placed on the elbows and shoulders are good.

So again I will ask... Are you suggesting inverts are good for young arms??

[Jake Patterson]

And are you suggesting that pitchers like...

- Nolan Ryan
- Greg Maddux
- Randy Johnson
- Roger Clemens
- Sandy Koufax

...make the M or Inverted W?

I am not suggesting anything I am merely asking a question about the Inverts.

To answer your question I feel the way Johnson extends the elbows behind the plane of the body (by at least 6" according to your estimations) is injurious to young arms. I feel it puts exessive strain on the anterior parts of the shoulder, but I readily admit -I'm no doctor.

I hate it when these discussion bounce from guys like the above to the average young pitcher. The guys listed above are freaks of nature not some 13 y/o trying to figure it out. Randy Johnson is 1 in a million, maybe many millions. Why would we teach inverts of any kind to youngsters???

[justthefacts]

I have spent extensive time with Kenesiologists, PT's, former pro pitchers and Orthopedist specializing in sports medicine and I have yet to have one of them demonstrate that the exessive strains placed on the elbows and shoulders are good.

What is the definition of excessive strain? How do you measure it? Where is the line between excessive strain and necessary strain? The entire argument posed by those who are against the inverted W is based upon their opinion with not a single fact to support it.

Again I ask how much do you actually know about the inverted W in terms of the why and what fors?

And how do your credentials stack up against Paul Nyman's?


"Paul Nyman has looked at throwing the the baseball like no other has. His unique way of looking at how the arm and body learn to throw from the most efficient way to how one learns to throw is truly remarkable. No one, and I repeat no one, has looked at more video, done more research and left no stone unturned in the quest of finding out about the throwing process than he has. Step aside and let you ego go for a moment and see what he has to offer. As a professional coach I did and it has opened up a whole new view for me. While I have gained my pitchers have been the ones who have benefited and in essence isn't that our job as coaches."

Brent Strom ( Brent Strom, former Major League Pitcher, Major League Pitching Coach and Pitching Co ordinator Washington Nationals)

"My name is Ron Wolforth and I own an Academy in Houston Texas and work with 96 pitchers on a weekly basis. I have written 3 books on pitching and consult for 19 other Academies, 7 NCAA DI schools and 3 Major League Organizations. Our school has produced 20 drafted pitchers in the last four years including Scotty Kazmir, Sam Demel & Troy Patton. We have sent 36 pitchers on to college scholarships in that time frame. In 2000 I was certified in the Tom House system.

I consider Paul Nyman the premeir expert in the world today on the science of throwing a baseball. No one single person has had more impact or influence in our teaching methodology and philosophy than does Paul Nyman. I hold him with tremendous amount of esteem and respect. Simply put, when Paul Nyman speaks...we listen. In my mind he has no peer with regards to understanding and explaining the way the arm & body throw the baseball...and that certainly includes Tom House, Dick Mills or Mike Marshal. His ideas have helped hundreds of our pitchers go to the next performance level AND create more durable and healthy arms."

Ron Wolforth (Ron Wolforth, developer of the nationally recognized The Athletic Pitcher program, Pitching Central, and The Teaxas Pitching Ranch)


Paul,
You are absolutely the best as far as presenting a pragmatic strategy relative to throwing the baseball. Your cause and effect explanations are not only science based but they make sense.Most of all they work.I have been doing this over 40 years and I think I know what is "eyewash" and what works. I have changed more for the good in the last three years as a result of interfacing with you than any other time in the previous 37+ years. The thing that I really like about you is that you are consumed by the journey knowing that the destination is always going to be just beyond our reach.Please feel free to edit this as you see fit and use my name whenever and wherever it will help you.

Jerry Weintein (Jerry Weintein, California Rockies, Los Angeles Dodgers, member of the California Community College Baseball Hall of Fame and Sacramento City College Sports Hall of Fame)

I have known Paul Nyman for approximately 3 years. My first encounter with him was at a pitching seminar where he described many of the methodologies that he currently uses to train pitchers. At first, Paul's techniques seemed radical and misplaced in what I knew/believed to be "true" in the world of baseball. After a 2 hour discussion with him at the opening of an elevator door, his techniques and methodologies seemed less radical and more appealing than before, and my sense of what was "true" in baseball became less believable. At best, Paul will change the way you coach and train throwers. At the very least, Paul will make you think about the way you coach and train throwers! Baseball needs more Paul Nyman's, that is to say, out of the box thinkers/practitioners who do not adhere to the "that's the way it has always been done in baseball" mentality.

Derek Johnson (Pitching Coach Vanderbilt University. Derek Johnson is now in his sixth season as an assistant coach for the Commodores and is widely considered one of the top pitching coaches in the country. Three of his last four three staffs have led the Southeastern Conference in ERA while also being ranked nationally at No. 15 (2003), No. 7 (2004) and No. 17 (2005) respectively.)

[Chris O'Leary]

I am not suggesting anything I am merely asking a question about the Inverts.

To answer your question I feel the way Johnson extends the elbows behind the plane of the body (by at least 6" according to your estimations) is injurious to young arms. I feel it puts exessive strain on the anterior parts of the shoulder, but I readily admit -I'm no doctor.

I hate it when these discussion bounce from guys like the above to the average young pitcher. The guys listed above are freaks of nature not some 13 y/o trying to figure it out. Randy Johnson is 1 in a million, maybe many millions. Why would we teach inverts of any kind to youngsters???

Jake, I was agreeing with you.

I think the M/Inverted W isn't just bad for YOUNG pitchers. I think it's bad for ALL pitchers.

Also, I have looked at Randy Johnson at length and while he makes the Horizontal W, he doesn't make the Inverted W. His elbows never get above the level of his shoulders (the yellow line in the image below). This can be a little hard to see (I was fooled myself) by the fact that he leans forward toward 1B (the white line in the image below).



The above frame is from this clip...

[Chris O'Leary]

What is the definition of excessive strain? How do you measure it? Where is the line between excessive strain and necessary strain? The entire argument posed by those who are against the inverted W is based upon their opinion with not a single fact to support it.

Again I ask how much do you actually know about the inverted W in terms of the why and what fors?

I define excessive strain as strain that...

1. Exceeds the limits of the body and thus increases the risk of injury.
2. Is not necessary to throwing well or hard.

Chameleon, you have never answered my question why the M/Inverted W is so important if you don't see it in the arm action of...

- Nolan Ryan
- Roger Clemens
- Randy Johnson
- Sandy Koufax
- Greg Maddux
- Tom Seaver
- Tom Glavine
- Roy Oswalt
- Dan Haren

Are you saying that none of those guys throw well or hard?

[Jake Patterson]

I have spent extensive time with Kenesiologists, PT's, former pro pitchers and Orthopedist specializing in sports medicine and I have yet to have one of them demonstrate that the exessive strains placed on the elbows and shoulders are good.

What is the definition of excessive strain? How do you measure it? Where is the line between excessive strain and necessary strain? The entire argument posed by those who are against the inverted W is based upon their opinion with not a single fact to support it.

Again I ask how much do you actually know about the inverted W in terms of the why and what fors?

And how do your credentials stack up against Paul Nyman's?

Ahh now I see who you are.....

You just won't answer the question. You answer questions with questions, yet you ask for credentials. Same ole same ole. I'll ask it again if it needs to be repeated..

To answer yours (for the benefit of others)... we had an orthopedist surgeon at our clinic this past season that demonstarted the dangers of posterior over-extension, and the dangers of the inverts with arthroscopic pics. This doc has done extensive work with ASMI and is a former Team physician for the Mets. He has also performed Tommy Johns on an ever-increasing number of youngsters listening to traditional pitching coaches. His finding were supported in the same clinic by PT's who also presented at the clinic. The pics of the damage were graphic enough that several coaches had to leave the room.

Earlier this year this again was supported by Dr. Michael Joyce at the 2007 World Baseball Convention. Dr Joyce is one of the leaders in orthopedic sports medicine. And again the graphics were bad enough where coaches had to leave the room.

But enough about what I know... You'll have me chasing the credential ghost forever without ever answering the question if I allow it - some things never change...

So I'll ask once again.. Are you suggesting we teach inverted M's and W's - and I'll add this... are you suggesting we teach posterior shoulder over-extension in young pitching???

[Chris O'Leary]

Ahh now I see who you are. You just won't answer the question. You answer questions with questions, yet you ask for credentials. Same ole same ole. I'll ask it again if it needs to be repeated..

To answer yours (for the benefit of others)... we had an orthopedist surgeon at our clinic this past season that demonstarted the dangers of posterior over-extension, and the dangers of the inverts with arthroscopic pics. This doc has done extensive work with ASMI and is a former Team physician for the Mets. He has also performed Tommy Johns on an ever-increasing number of youngsters listening to traditional pitching coaches. His finding were supported in the same clinic by PT's who also presented at the clinic. The pics of the damage were graphic enough that several coaches had to leave the room.

Earlier this year this again was supported by Dr. Michael Joyce at the 2007 World Baseball Convention. Dr Joyce is one of the leaders in orthopedic sports medicine. And again the graphics were bad enough where coaches had to leave the room.

Jake, good luck getting him to answer the question. I haven't been able to.

By way of backing up my point of view on the M/Inverted W and and a related problem that I call Hyperabduction (http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/RethinkingPitching/Essays/Hyperabduction.html), here is an e-mail that I recently received from a fairly prominent orthopedic surgeon...

Chris I am an orthopedic surgeon, and would like to offer you a theory on why the inverted W is bad to the long term health of the shoulder.

In the position of hyper abduction, elevation and extension of the distal humerus above the shoulder (inverted W) the inferior glenohumeral ligament is placed on stretch. The humeral head must lever against it to advance the arm forward. This ligament is the primary anterior stabilizer of the glenohumeral joint with the arm elevated (i,e. pitching). In other words, this position places this ligament under tension, then it is levered against in order to throw. This eventually will either loosen the shoulder, or tear the anterior labrum. It should be recognized this ligament is under stress during the "normal" delivery. If you traumatically dislocate your shoulder, this ligament is a key part of the pathology. Shoulder instability in turn leads to impingement, and other problems. Conversely, when the elbow is below the shoulder, this ligament would not be as stressed.

Also, the specific use and timing of the muscles about the shoulder is critical. They have done muscle activity studies during throwing, and there are distinct differences between amateurs and professionals. There is also evidence for muscle use differences in the healthy shoulders, and the ones that aren't.

I am not a shoulder guru, certainly not a pitching guru, but am interested in pitching mechanics. Like you, I learned from others while coaching little league/AAU, and agree there is a lot of misinformation out there.

If you don't believe me, then believe him.

[Encinitas]

That dooode is not Chameleon my friends.

[Mark H]

Don't have a dog in the fight but I do think anyone serious about this subject would do well to include Nyman and Wolforth in their reading.

[Chris O'Leary]

That dooode is not Chameleon my friends.

Well, the style is certainly the same...

1. The personal attacks.
2. The answering of questions with questions.
3. The general lack of substance.

[stever]

Most people today don't understand the "birth" of the scap load debate.
The awareness resulted from the need to know why DMills said to circle-up and don't allow the elbows to go behind the shoulders....hence his circle-up fence drill. Most of our time was spent debunking Mills "philosophies" because he could not/would not explain the mechanics of the high velocity pros that were of lesser stature that didn't follow his $million recipe. Unfortunately, not allowing for early scap load (elbows being pulled behind the shoulders earlier) resulted in excessive strain on the front of the throwing shoulder, ie., the shoulder was taking most of the force/strain when the shoulders turned/rotated to throw.

Today, Chris (and others I suppose) has a theory (and that's all it is) to try to explain shoulder and elbow injuries based on the direction and amount of internal rotation of the shoulder, the ability to abduct up, perpendicular to or down relative to the spine...how much is too much, how high is too high, or conversely, how low is too low to gain the most efficiency and avoid injury.

Point being, scap abduction is an important upper torso load to unload in order to throw hard....don't take away the value of the load as seen in most all hard throwing pros. The physical makeup of the individual IMO dictates the direction of the load.

[Jake Patterson]

Don't have a dog in the fight but I do think anyone serious about this subject would do well to include Nyman and Wolforth in their reading.

Agree .

[GFK]

Stever, good to hear you weigh in!

[Chris O'Leary]

Most people today don't understand the "birth" of the scap load debate. The awareness resulted from the need to know why DMills said to circle-up and don't allow the elbows to go behind the shoulders....hence his circle-up fence drill.

This is an idea that Mills likely "borrowed" from Mike Marshall.

As I have said repeatedly, I think Marshall (and thus Mills) is wrong about this. If you look at guys like...

- Maddux
- Ryan
- Johnson
- Clemens
- Koufax
- Seaver

...their elbows DO go behind their backs.

It's a fact.

However, and I think critically, their elbows DO NOT go above the level of their shoulders.

While pitchers like Mark Prior do make the M/Inverted W, it's not an accurate description of the arm action of guys like...

- Maddux
- Ryan
- Johnson
- Clemens
- Koufax
- Seaver









Also, I just saw some video of Pedro Martinez throwing and his arm action is now pretty much identical to the above (where before it was more of an M).

[stever]

DMills invented the smelting pot of mechanics, and appeared to me that he used what he thought was the most common postures and mixed those together to formulate his set of desirable mechanics.

But just for grins.......why don't you mix apples with apples and take a look at all of the pros you think have undesirable elbow lifts (or scap loads) and compare their postures with those above at the same point in time, ie, ball/hand nearing or passing through the high zone.

[Chris O'Leary]

But just for grins.......why don't you mix apples with apples and take a look at all of the pros you think have undesirable elbow lifts (or scap loads) and compare their postures with those above at the same point in time, ie, ball/hand nearing or passing through the high zone.

Here you go.

Notice the height of the PAS elbow as the forearm is vertical. I don't think it's a coincidence that these guys have had problems with their shoulders.

Papelbon...



Wainwright...



Hamels...



Also, in terms of Reyes...



...and Prior...



...the height of the PAS elbow -- while not necessarily being bad in and of itself -- sets up problems later on, in particular increasing the distance and force with which the PAS upper arm externally rotates.

[stever]

No one here fits the bill. Hand must be passing through the high zone.....Prior and Reyes are no where close. Consider the shoulder tilt as well. Just because the glove shoulder is lower than the throwing shoulder, doesn't mean the elbow is higher than that plane of the shoulders.

[tom.guerry]

Some of you have been very naughty and earned the ire of N#!$^/s-e-t-p-r-o

http://www.setpro.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8842

The internet and video are ruining throwing, unless,of course it's Nyman using the internet and video.

Same with golf. Don't use golf info unless it comes from Nyman.

he's far worse in hitting, but in throwing, as always, he has 2 BIG problems he's blind to, trying to overcome them by emphasis on "Trial and error" raher than understanding body sequence well.

turn back hip into front - better forget that "cue".

and total lack of understanding lead arm action - see Wolforth or especially Hodge to fill in this dark area.

Even in his animation in this link he can not even adequately emulate what is seen in the clip for the front arm.

You wonder why he hides behind the pay perview option ?

[Jake Patterson]

It's too bad... There is much to learn, especially as it applies to teaching youngsters. The problem seems to be there are those who would rather discuss how unqualified others are versus engage in any meaningful discussion.

Based on my personal knowledge I could easily say that unless you have read all of Dr. Michael Joyce's work you are unqualified to discuss this issue, but what value does that bring to the table?

The thread goes on and on and Justthefacts/PN won't answer the question...

Are you suggesting that the Inverted W and M is good for a young arm?

Please I am trying to learn.

Jake

[AcidLake]

I actually had a session today and I did have some urge to try inverted W with the good timing... I actually had a feel that my shoulder kind of hurted than my normal arm swing, so I just went back. Maybe it's not for me

[tom.guerry]

Jake-

Just pony up at setpro and Nyman will reveal all, but it's proprietary so don't tell anyone.

[Jake Patterson]

Jake-

Just pony up at setpro and Nyman will reveal all, but it's proprietary so don't tell anyone.


pro·pri·e·tar·y

ADJECTIVE:

Of, relating to, or suggestive of a proprietor or to proprietors as a group: had proprietary rights; behaved with a proprietary air in his friend's house.

Exclusively owned; private: a proprietary hospital.

Owned by a private individual or corporation under a trademark or patent: a proprietary drug.

Source: Heritage

[justthefacts]

It's too bad... There is much to learn, especially as it applies to teaching youngsters. The problem seems to be there are those who would rather discuss how unqualified others are versus engage in any meaningful discussion.

And just what are your credentials/qualifications that allow you to judge the inverted W? What throwing mechanics information, specifically arm action, have you brought to the table?

Based on my personal knowledge I could easily say that unless you have read all of Dr. Michael Joyce's work you are unqualified to discuss this issue, but what value does that bring to the table?

Other than telling us that a player who exceeds their normal range of motion capabilities increases their risk to increase susceptibility, exactly what does Dr. Michael Joyce's work do for the player or parent in terms of improving their abilities to throw the baseball?

The thread goes on and on and Justthefacts/PN won't answer the question...

I'm not sure what thread you're reading but the one on SETPRO contains more information than you've ever provided regarding the inverted W.

Are you suggesting that the Inverted W and M is good for a young arm?Please I am trying to learn.

How does anyone judge what is good or bad? Is it bad because some doctor says that too much stress potentially causes injuries? The question I asked previously is a valid one how does one measure too much stress on the arm? And where are the studies that say a particular arm action is less stressful than another type of arm action? And is it possible that depending upon the athletes genetics, that one type of arm action may be more suitable than another (see the illustration on a separate website showing the difference and flexibility between a championship class butterfly swimmer and a lesser performer http://www.setpro.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8842 )?

Supporting your belief that the inverted W is bad for young players based upon the general premise that stress beyond normal limits is bad is suspect at best.

It appears that Derek Johnson, pitching coach at Vanderbilt University, who coached the first player selected in the Major league draft as well as the eighth player selected in the Major league draft, has more faith in Paul Nyman's knowledge and information then you do.

[randy]

So, to keep this simple as I am not a baseball expert...in your opinion, justthefacts, is the inverted W safe for my sons? They are 9 and almost 12 and pitch a little. The oldest throws pretty darn hard at this stage, so I do not want to put more stress on his growth plate and rc, etc, than they can handle...
I tried to read some of Nyman's stuff, but was way over my head.

[Jake Patterson]

How does anyone judge what is good or bad? ???? How? Surgical experience, biological studies, biomechanical research, kenesiology, experience, etc, etc, etc.

Asking this question just further complicates what most youth coaches already struggle with. Why cloud the issue further?


Is it bad because some doctor says that too much stress potentially causes injuries?
YES, especially those who have thoroughly researched the issue. It is unreasonable for anyone to expect that each and every coach MUST fully understand every biological or kenesiological aspect of the game.

If your auto technician tells you to keep oil in your car do we need to fully understand the inner workings of the combustion engine to feel comfortable about his advice or do you take it at face value based on HIS qualifications?


Supporting your belief that the inverted W is bad for young players based upon the general premise that stress beyond normal limits is bad is suspect at best.
Then offer some information that says different. Is it good to teach children this or not??

BTW I am NOT a doctor, kenesiologist or bio-mechnical expert, just a coach who continues to learn.

[Jake Patterson]

So, to keep this simple as I am not a baseball expert...in your opinion, justthefacts, is the inverted W safe for my sons? They are 9 and almost 12 and pitch a little. The oldest throws pretty darn hard at this stage, so I do not want to put more stress on his growth plate and rc, etc, than they can handle...
I tried to read some of Nyman's stuff, but was way over my head.

Randy, based on the information available, from a long-term arm safety standpoint it is not good. Joyce, Fleisig, Andrews, Marshall and many others have researched this and I have yet to see one say it's good thing to teach. This does not mean injurious methods are not effective, many are. I think you are asking if they are safe and many feel the Inverts are not.

[justthefacts]

Randy, based on the information available, from a long-term arm safety standpoint it is not good. Joyce, Fleisig, Andrews, Marshall and many others have researched this and I have yet to see one say it's good thing to teach.

Are you saying that Joyce, Fleisig, Andrews, Marshall has specifically researched the inverted W and have demonstrated that is not good from a safety standpoint? If so please point me to their studies. Also please point me to the studies that show how much stress is being placed on the arm by the inverted W as opposed to other types of arm actions.

This does not mean injurious methods are not effective, many are. I think you are asking if they are safe and many feel the Inverts are not.

"many" again please be specific by citing exactly who these many are and where they specifically address the inverted W. I've yet to see any study that demonstrates the danger of the inverted W.

I tried to read some of Nyman's stuff, but was way over my head.

randy, I put far more credibility to your remarks. I doubt that very many people do understand Nyman's stuff. My guess is about the same percentage the number of players making it from Little League to the major leagues.

BTW I am NOT a doctor, kenesiologist or bio-mechnical expert, just a coach who continues to learn.

just a coach who continues to learn. I don't think so. Looks more to me that you are looking for ways to validate your postings.

[Jake Patterson]

just a coach who continues to learn.[/I] I don't think so. Looks more to me that you are looking for ways to validate your postings.
Then please... I'm begging you - for the fifth or so time- answer the question - Are you suggesting teaching inverted W's and M's is good for a young arm?

[randy]

That's what I'm trying to find out-is it or is it not? Most are saying no, and I'm trying to find out if anyone says yes...I can't tell if JTF's answer is a yes or a no or a maybe...

[Chris O'Leary]

So, to keep this simple as I am not a baseball expert...in your opinion, justthefacts, is the inverted W safe for my sons? They are 9 and almost 12 and pitch a little. The oldest throws pretty darn hard at this stage, so I do not want to put more stress on his growth plate and rc, etc, than they can handle...
I tried to read some of Nyman's stuff, but was way over my head.

I'll tell you this.

The inverted W is obviously NOT necessary to throwing well or hard. I say that based on the fact that you do not see the Inverted W in the arm actions of...

- Greg Maddux
- Tom Glavine
- Nolan Ryan
- Roger Clemens
- Tom Seaver
- Bob Gibson
- Randy Johnson

[justthefacts]

Then please... I'm begging you - for the fifth or so time- answer the question - Are you suggesting teaching inverted W's and M's is good for a young arm?

Believe it or not I am trying to answer your question. I am also trying to show that this question is surrounded by smoke and mirrors by those who claim that they KNOW the inverted W is worse than any other type of arm action.

From your response it appears that you are unable to cite any specific negative references by your experts (Fleisig, Andrews, etc) pertaining specifically to the inverted W? And your negativity regarding the inverted W quite possibly is nothing more than YOUR opinion. Am I correct in this?

I'll tell you this.

The inverted W is obviously NOT necessary to throwing well or hard. I say that based on the fact that you do not see the Inverted W in the arm actions of...

Chris, please show me where Nyman says that the inverted W is the only way to throw the baseball hard or effectively. Do you really understand what Nyman sees in the inverted W? Please show us how much you know by first telling us why Nyman feels the inverted W is of value. If you, or anyone else for that matter, can't do this please shut up regarding the inverted W.

I as everyone, either inverted W pro or con, do you really know what the inverted W is other than your perception of what you think it is? Do you really understand what constitutes he inverted W other than what you think you are seeing. For those who are critics of the inverted W (Nyman), how many of you have read Rotational Throwing For Numbies. Specifically the section where Nyman discusses arm action and explains for different general types including long I mean, short arming, inverted W, and slinging.

- Greg Maddux
- Tom Glavine
- Nolan Ryan
- Roger Clemens
- Tom Seaver
- Bob Gibson
- Randy Johnson

Contrary to Chris it is my opinion that all of these pitchers incorporate elements of the inverted W.

If you disagree, I ask the question again, do any of you really understand what the inverted W is? And can you explain exactly why Nyman thinks the inverted W has value? Before you critcize, please demonstrate that you actually know something about the inverted W other than what you think you know.

And last but not least please show me where you have worked with high-level players and or have coaches who have developed major-league prospects who have publicly stated that they use your methods. And that they respect your knowledge of how to develop high-level players. And Chris, saying that you worked as a pitching adviser for some scout of an some unnamed major-league team doesn't quite satisfy this requirement.

Answer these questions and I'll answer yours.

Then please... I'm begging you - for the fifth or so time- answer the question - Are you suggesting teaching inverted W's and M's is good for a young arm?

Or maybe you'll answer it for me.

[randy]

Instead of arguing, can you just answer my question-is it safe to teach my almost 12 year old and my 9 year old? YES or NO? Everyone else is saying no, and I'm trying to give you a chance to say yes, but you won't....maybe that tells me your answer.

[Jake Patterson]

And your negativity regarding the inverted W quite possibly is nothing more than YOUR opinion. Am I correct in this?
Ok - This is my opinion. Now will you answer the question?

[randy]

I asked you a simple yes or no question. Jake stated his position and tried to back it up with his experiences. Instead of attacking his position, how about answering the question and tryng to support it from your experiences.
People who have nothing to offer usually respond by trying to tear down the beliefs of those who do.
If you have a position, please tell me what it is and support it, so I can make a decision on what is best for my sons at THIS stage of their development, not 5 years from now AFTER puberty.

[justthefacts]

I tried to read some of Nyman's stuff, but was way over my head.

randy, I think you and Jake answered your own questions. If you don't know what you are doing, then don't do it.

[tom.guerry]

the most persuasive description I have seen is by Hodge in his BIOMECHANICBASEBALL tape.

He recommends a universal sequence where the hands break primarily by internal rotation and aBduction of the arm with varying degrees of associatedpronation being OK.

He finds that this seats the head of the humerus more stably into the socket and provides thr right amount of clearance for the tuberosity on the humearl head.

The next important loading requirement is for a smooth stretch/load of the tissues, not an interrupted off and on action at the shoulder.

I would review his tape if you can find a copy.

The appearance/"W" is variable. There can be good and bad "W".

The WORST "W" is probably when you break the hands wrong with the palms up and the elbows down as opposed to palms down and elbows up.

[randy]

thank you Tom, for a straightforward and sensible answer.
Just the facts, you answered no questions about the subject, but you answered all kinds of questions about your character...

[AcidLake]

I'm not skeptical, but doesn't getting the elbow over the shoulder stresses the arm?

[tom.guerry]

very hard to get elbow above shoulder withfull arm internal rotation first.

[GFK]

so I can make a decision on what is best for my sons at THIS stage of their development, not 5 years from now AFTER puberty.

Randy, the arm action that your kids develop pre-puberty will be very difficult to change 5 years down the road. Try to teach them such that they will not have to un-learn motor programs down the road. (Try changing the way you tie your shoes. See how long it will take before doing it the new way is automatic.)


If you don't know what you are doing, then don't do it.

I have got to agree with justthefacts on this one. I think no instruction is a better option than faulty instruction.

[Jake Patterson]

I have got to agree with justthefacts on this one. I think no instruction is a better option than faulty instruction.

So what do you and JTF tell the 300,000 volunteer coaches in America? Don't teach? I asked JTF a simple question and he has yet to answer it. I know what Dr. Michael Joyce has said about the inverts as they apply to youth pitching. I know what Mike Marshal has said. JTF like many who consider themselves learned in the art of pitching would rather tell you what you don't know rather than answer straight forward questions like; "Are you suggesting we teach inverted W and M to youth pitchers." Based on the information I have to date - I don't.
Jake

[GFK]

So what do you and JTF tell the 300,000 volunteer coaches in America? Don't teach? I asked JTF a simple question and he has yet to answer it. I know what Dr. Michael Joyce has said about the inverts as they apply to youth pitching. I know what Mike Marshal has said. JTF like many who consider themselves learned in the art of pitching would rather tell you what you don't know rather than answer straight forward questions like; "Are you suggesting we teach inverted W and M to youth pitchers." Based on the information I have to date - I don't.
Jake

Jake, I wasn't taking a stand for or against the inverted W. I agree with JTF and Nyman that it is one of several viable arm action options. My oldest uses it, my youngest is nearer to short arm or slinger and my middle son has the dreaded long arm action. I have a few drills I picked up while at Setpro that I used to help them develop their arm action. They fell into what they use today. The youngest one's arm action is transitioning to a short arm as he does more short stop and catcher than he does P.

I am not concerned with "the 300,000 volunteer coaches in America". IME, those that are truely searching will find the information that they are looking for. I would suggest to Randy that he purchase some of Nyman's material on throwing. They background information alone would be money well spent. If anyone counts on "the 300,000 volunteer coaches in America" to teach proper mechanics to their kid, the odds are very much stacked against them.

Jake, I do applaud your desire to improve coaching as a whole. I think we have different game plans. Infect a few with good information. Then that few will go out and infect a few more with good information. Spread it like a virus.

Just to let everyone know, I am not a saleman for Nyman. I think he has some very good information. Truth be known, I haven't been able to get onto his site for a long time. Don't know why. Still, the information I have seen him present is top shelf.

[randy]

Please explain long-arm and slinger...I kinda get the short-arm(catcher,ss).

[GFK]

Please explain long-arm and slinger...I kinda get the short-arm(catcher,ss).

The following animation was created by Paul Nyman as part of a demo presentation. I saved this portion of the demo as a gif.



You don't want the boy using the motion labeled "long arm". Beyond this, you best bet is to go to the source and get some of the Setpro stuff on pitching.

[tom.guerry]

TheseNyman demos as usual show the typical poor timing and lead arm ynch and sequence that Hodge explains.

When the throwing hand comes up via back arm external rotation, the lead thigh shoulder turn over at the same time (external rotation/knee flare) for good upper/lower body timing/coil.

Also as the back arm external rotation starts to bring the throwing hand up, the lead arm must continue to internally rotate. Nyman does not understand how the lead arm action assists in coiling which is why he falls back on the usually counter-productive "turn back hip into front" cue.

[randy]

Okay I'll bite...how is the long arm bad? With all 4 going at once and not being able to freeze the, I can't really tell..

[Jake Patterson]

Boy I sure do hope all this wasn't a veilled attempt to sell Nyman books.

[GFK]

Okay I'll bite...how is the long arm bad? With all 4 going at once and not being able to freeze the, I can't really tell..

From what I understand, the "long arm" action limits velocity. I do know that I have never seen an MLB player using it.


Boy I sure do hope all this wasn't a veilled attempt to sell Nyman books.

Jake, I don't sell books. I am an engineer. I can put much more food on the table with my engineering skills. I would starve as a salesman.

[justthefacts]

Boy I sure do hope all this wasn't a veilled attempt to sell Nyman books.


Hypocrite, a person who professes beliefs and opinions that he or she does not hold in order to conceal his or her real feelings or motives.



http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=63216

Englishbey recommendation for lurkers

Hey all.........

After hanging around here for a year or so, posting a little now and then, and mostly sifting through the noise.....

I bought the Englishbey stuff.

I am very excited about it.
It's a systems approach, and that's how I think about it.
Can't find any significant fault with it thus far...... that is IF you listen to exactly how he presents it. It's all about functionality...understanding the function as more important than the form.

No junk science that I can find.

I started my posting here with a challenge about what I felt was a misapplication of physics to support a belief.

Steve is about making sure that it makes sense from a kinestheology approach. Things need to make sense to me from a biomechanical standpoint.
His stuff does.

It also needs to stand up to comparison to MLB video.
It does to me.
The only difference I can see so far is in the absolute degree in which you see compliance with what I would say is his optimal motion.
Notice how I say it is what I WOULD SAY is his optimal motion.
He is more about OPTIMAL FUNCTIONALITY.
I see his functionality in most all the MLB swings I've looked at.
I can also see where searching for the Englishbey SET OF MOVEMENTS may leave you confused.

Anyone on the fence ..as I have been..... take it for what it's worth....one man's opinion. cheers.

Jake says:


I believe there are many similarities and Steve would be the first to credit Paul for his work. What I find the biggest difference is however is Steve's ability to train the trainer in language and methods that are easier to understand.

and


The measure of a good clinician isn't how well he knows how to hit - it's how well he can teach it.

My only conclusion is that Jake considers "veiled attempts" are worse than "overt attempts".

[randy]

If it is, they're drilling a dry hole here. A house payment, car payment, and child support for two kids on a teacher's salary doesn't leave a lot left for such-that's why I'm on this free forum asking questions...

[stever]

Boy..............this makes for some great nostalgic entertainment.:atthepc

[tom.guerry]

long arm is fine in sense of throwing arm getting extended at elbow at some point after handbreak. Before the arm externally rotates much, however, it needs to get back to about a 90 degree angle at the elbow as this gives the best leverage for loading and unloading the arm loop primarily by external rotation/layback and then internal rotation/rapid acceleration.

The feel of "staying on top" through the throw comes from unloading the arm loop primarily by internal rotation and only secondarily by arm extension.

Deeper flexion at the elbow than about 90 degrees is very stressful as this puts too much emphasis on arm extension in the rapid acceleration and tends to force excessive "forearm twist" at the same time to make the ball go toward the target. This combo of forearm twist and deep flexion at the elbow is very stressful to the flexor mass attachment (medial epicondyle).

Instead you want the acceleration primarily by internal rotation and as this proceeds there is more range of motion available to pronate the throwing forearm through release. If you pronate the throwing forearm at handbreak and keep it pronated (show ball tocenter fiel/keep fingers on top) and then pronate more through release as range of motion is freed up for good pure underspin, this minimizes forearm twist and flexor mass stress.

Arm action will be quicker if you do not do the arm extension after handbreak, important for catcher/other types of position throws.

heavy objects also require the better leveraged 90 degree angle at the elbow for load/unload of arm loop - soft ball/football.

[Jake Patterson]

My only conclusion is that Jake considers "veiled attempts" are worse than "overt attempts".

Steve offers a public forum at no cost and no trial period. He frequents this site and offers advice to those who ask. Most important he, like many other very qualified coaches here, does not skirt questions with a, "Your not qualified to ask," answer. He goes out of his way to help. He does not overtly or otherwise sell EH on BBF. I personally recommend him because of his products, his philosophies, his ability to make things easy to understand and his willingness to answer questions whether it promotes his stuff or not. I also recommend other coaches who participate here for free for the betterment of the game.

P, You would be better served by just answering questions when posed. Most of your material is ground breaking and most would love the opportunity to discuss. It's just too much work to get by the condescension and mystery created by the ever-ellusive answers. Not a new problem.

[randy]

I'm just trying to figure out how to keep the oldest kid from wrapping the ball back around his hip and out behind him...especially from windup, not as often from stretch, and never when he slide steps(which I wish he wouldn't do). I need to figure what is the proper arm path...

[DamageG]

Steve offers a public forum at no cost and no trial period.

Oh really, he banned me from the day it opened - without ever reading or making a post.

[Jake Patterson]

Oh really, he banned me from the day it opened - without ever reading or making a post.

Now we have completly morphed from a Inverted W question to discussing a hitting site... And Randy still has not recieved a clear answer from JTF.

[justthefacts]

Now we have completly morphed from a Inverted W question to discussing a hitting site... And Randy still has not recieved a clear answer from JTF.

This thread began with the following:


Billybob622
Registered User Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 114

Inverted W

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This kid on my summer baseball team does the inverted w, almost like anthony reyes. He was throwing in the mid to high 80s, however, with little to medium control.

However, he is only about 5'4, and 105lbs. Does the inverted w, make you throw that hard?

I thought that the inverted w, also caused injury. (he was constantly moving his arm up and down, holding his elbow)

Followed by opinions regarding the safety of the inverted W my response was specifically to address opinions that could not be substantiated by fact. To raise questions as to the viability of those opinions. Might participation here was NOT to answer specific questions regarding the inverted W. I did not answer or post in an evasive manner. What I attempted to do is ask questions regarding the accuracy of postd made by those who speak with such great conviction and authority regarding inverted W.

Just the facts, you answered no questions about the subject, but you answered all kinds of questions about your character...

Both Randy and Jake asked if I thought the inverted W was something you should teach the young players. My answer is only if you know what you're doing. And that can be said about any aspect of throwing or hitting. Not sure how I can be any more specific than that. There is no clear yes or no answer as it all depends upon a number of factors not the least of which is the players physical capabilities, desire on his part to improve, how much the person instructing the player knows regarding developing arm action, etc., etc..

It appears that many who post here think that there is some simple process to achieving a final movement goal. For events that are as ballistic as throwing, there is no such thing. The biggest advantage that you can offer to a player is to start him very young using what you consider optimal mechanics. The real question then becomes you really understand or know what optimal mechanics are?

The difficulty in making mechanical changes varies almost geometrically to age/experience. Past the age of 12 or 13, very few if any can make significant changes to the way that they throw.

Pitching instruction is possibly the most sensitive of all issues because of the fear that exists today largely due to people who present their opinions, such as those expressed regarding inverted W, as if they are facts and in the process engage in fear mongering.

It is my opinion that to properly teach any type of throwing or hitting for that matter, takes years of dedicated effort on both the part of the player and the parent.

It frustrates me to see postings on forums such as this one where opinions are presented with such absolute certainty. Especially when there is a wealth of data says that these opinions are in conflict with reality. Case in point the inverted W.

If you want specifics regarding the best ways to develop a players throwing, it requires far more than answering the question of whether the inverted W should be taught the young players. And if you want specific answers regarding inverted W I suggest that you go to the source and not rely on second hand interpretations and opinions.

And if you are not willing or able to put in this time and effort then you should not attempt to teach what you think is the inverted W. I don't know how to be any more specific than that.

But if the player is naturally throwing within inverted W, and again the real question is do you really know what the inverted W really is, then I would not attempt to change it. Which can be said about any arm action because based on my experiences, arm action is the most difficult part of the delivery to change. I suspect this is why Tom House and others believe that arm action is something you are born with, that you are either born to throw hard or you are not.

The advantages of the inverted W. have to do with how effectively the sequencing of arm action can be coupled to the action of the body. All pitchers must somehow get through the high hand position. With a slinger the throw begins from the high hand position. With the inverted W, the throw begins prior to the high hand position. This offers an advantage in that there is the potential for creating greater momentum along with the possibility of more effective timing. Not to mention the ability to capture momentum in the form of a elastic energy stored in the connective tissues.

Also if one does the physics simulations, there appears to be a benefit to creating a dynamic "loop" in the arm action that the inverted W creates. All whipping actions work on the principle of creating a loop which then acts as an inertial transformer which converts momentum to velocity.

If you take time to search and read the free postings that are available on the SETPRO website you'll see that it is believed the inverted W allows better breaking ball action. This is anecdotal in that it appears that slingers are much more prone to throwing sliders where ads inverted W arm actions seem to have the better curveballs. Again there are exceptions but this is a reasonable generality. These observations are also supported by those who are involved with working with college and minor-league players.

Again I emphasize that very few who have commented on the inverted W. really understand what the inverted W is. As an example Chris O'Leary harps on the elbow being elevated above the shoulder. This is NOT a criteria for the inverted W.

In closing, I think GFK hits the nail on the head when he says there's a world of difference between the Little League coach and the parent who wants to do the very best he can for his son or daughter. Little League coaches do the best they can with very limited time and resources. I doubt that any major-league player ever got there because of a Little League coach. In general Little League coaching is babysitting for the masses, my opinion. There are exceptions but these exceptions are not the rule. At least not in my town.

[randy]

thank you sir, for your information. I retract my earlier comments.

[justthefacts]

randy, said I'm just trying to figure out how to keep the oldest kid from wrapping the ball back around his hip and out behind him...especially from windup, not as often from stretch, and never when he slide steps(which I wish he wouldn't do). I need to figure what is the proper arm path...

One of the main reasons for my "infatuation" with the inverted W, is that it is the most effective way to teach a player to take a ball of the glove using his scapula and upper arm. The reason why this action is important is because if you look at just about every high-level throwr they maintain a flexed forearm i.e. they do not allow the arm to typically drop back locking up the elbow. And I will again for the benefit of those who think differently, that the inverted W is NOT the same as elevating the elbow above the shoulder. The inverted W. refers to the way that a pitcher uses his upper body, in conjunction with both arms to throw the baseball.

It is my belief that one of the reasons why players long arm is because they are focused on using their hand to throw the baseball as opposed to high-level players who throw the ball with their elbow. Mariano Rivera, in his video tape, "Rolling Thunder, refers to throwing with a rag loose forearm. My interpretation of this is throwing with the elbow and allowing the forearm and ultimately the wrist to act like a whip.

Today at the professional level there is less concern about what some would refer to a short arming than there used to be. I believe one of the reasons for this is because if you look at pitchers such as Bartolo Colon who is a classic short armer, he creates a very effective loop (remember you have to have a loop to create a whipping action) by tucking the ball behind his ear. Which I believe is far better than reaching back and straightening the arm out.

There are pitches to do reach back, but they then recover by lifting the elbow informing the loop by allowing the forearm the band as a throw the baseball. One of the more negative aspects of long arming is the potential to create "hand grenade throwers".

The symptoms that you describe are consistent with the player thinking that he needs to throw the ball with his hand. This condition becomes aggravated by a full windup because there's too much time available i.e. he doesn't know what to do with his hand. So that you got the time he dropped it back and around behind him. This also indicates a potential tempo problem i.e. is taking too long in the windup to throw the baseball and therefore everything gets out of synchronization. Again this is supported by your comments regarding how he throws out of the stretch.

I agree with you that slide stepping is bad. But there is something called a rotational slide step that is good. Derrick Johnson at Vanderbilt uses this technique when working with his pitchers. Specifically to work on developing a better sequence and timing. When asked what the greatest problems Derek has with pitchers such as Price and Weathers, he said arm action and tempo. And that I'm action was almost impossible to change once they got the Vanderbilt. That changes in tempo while difficult to implement yielded significant dividends.

Hopefully this gives you a better understanding of why there are no SIMPLE yes or no answers to anything having to do with throwing a baseball. And why in most instances is better to leave the player alone, but urged them to throw with very specific goals. And to stress athleticism (throwing the crap out of the baseball) as opposed to looking like a pitcher.

[Jake Patterson]

Now these posts are helpful.

[randy]

Yes indeed. Sir, I do apologize for my remarks about your character. How do I teach him to not go back behind his hip? Shorten his leg kick, break his hands earlier or later,etc. He is only 11(almost 12) and I don't want to get too technical and confuse him or me. He is pretty athletic(except foot speed) and throws pretty hard, although I have seen some harder. I've been told by a pretty knowledgeable guy(just a friend) that his ball appears heavy, whatever the hell that means.
I would like to know more about how to teach the "using the upper arm" to take the ball back, if you can share that with me.

[tom.guerry]

Nyman's latest ignorant and arrogant post:

http://www.setpro.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8842

has his horizontal abduct and adduct confused.

shows inverted "W", says it's OK. the problem here in my opinion is that you can't get the elbows that much higher than the shoulders without having started out with too little internal rotation of the back arm at handbreak.

This fails to seat the ball of the humerus deeply ehough in the socket and makes for too much instabiltiy/floating.

It may or may not then proceed to impingment as the ball of th humerus rotates in the socket.

[XV84]

From what I understand, the "long arm" action limits velocity. I do know that I have never seen an MLB player using it.



Jake, I don't sell books. I am an engineer. I can put much more food on the table with my engineering skills. I would starve as a salesman.

There are plenty of MLB'ers who have a long arm action. Here are Roy Oswalt, Ben Sheets, and Mariano Rivera, to name a few.

[justthefacts]

XV84 said There are plenty of MLB'ers who have a long arm action. Here are Roy Oswalt, Ben Sheets, and Mariano Rivera, to name a few.

The ability to read is not the same as the ability to comprehend.

Previously I stated:

There are pitches to do reach back, but they then recover by lifting the elbow informing the loop by allowing the forearm the band as a throw the baseball. One of the more negative aspects of long arming is the potential to create "hand grenade throwers".

Still photographs of a dynamic sequence (throwing) usually don't mean squat in terms of understanding the entire action, especially when it comes to arm action.

has his horizontal abduct and adduct confused.

This is a classic example of why most medical doctors (in this case Tom Guerry) think they know a lot more than they actually do (do all doctors have a God complex?) about throwing a ball. This doctor doesn't know basic anatomical kinesiology.

And in general the doctors have really screwed up language in terms of describing movement of body parts. flection-extension-abduction-abduction-retraction-protraction are all used to describe the same things.

In the case of the shoulders, it's even more screwed up. Horizontal abduction refers to movement of the humerus away from the midline of the body in the transverse horizontal plane.

Scapula retraction describes movement of the scapula away from the midline of the body in the transverse horizontal plane.

Where things get screwed up (confusing to be unaware/uninformed) is when you read research papers such as those done by the ASMI where, because the limitations of their measurement capabilities (three-dimensional measurement of joint movements) they lump both horizontal abduction and scapula retraction into a single entity which they referred to as horizontal adduction (see picture below from Escamilla RF, Fleisig GS, Barrentine SW, Zheng N, Andrews JR. Kinematic comparisons of throwing different types of baseball pitches. Journal of Applied Biomechanics 14(1):1-23, 1998):



Referring to illustration "D" which is defined as shoulder horizontal adduction. The implication of this diagram that movement of the arm "backwards" is referred to as horizontal adduction. What they don't tell you in the fine print is that the negative angle (-40°) actuality means that they act illustrating horizontal abduction. It took me a while to figure this one out. And it took me a lot longer than I care to admit to understand that what horizontal abduction is really referring to is movement of the humerus in the transverse horizontal plane. And that is the combination of horizontal abduction of the shoulder combined with retraction of the scapula that actually (correctly, from an anatomical description standpoint) captures the movement of the shoulder/arm for this portion of the throwing/pitching delivery. For more illustrations of anatomical movement I refer you to.

http://www.exrx.net/Articulations/Shoulder.html

http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/anatomy/shouldersanatomy1.htm

Many of you may consider all this irrelevant minutia, I mean according to XV84, all one has to do is post a couple of still photographs and that proves everything there is to prove about long arming being a good thing.

The point of this whole dissertation is that the average parent has virtually no hope of making a significant impact/changes to how their son or daughter throws the baseball short of just throwing repetitions under various conditions. Be it throwing in the backyard, practices, scrimmages, game situations. The average parent has little or no comprehension first of what high-level throwing mechanics are all about and secondly the will or desire to do what is necessary to effect mechanical changes. But he shouldn't feel bad neither does professional baseball.

For 99% of the players what you see by the age of 12 is what you going to get for the rest of their playing. What you hope for is that simply through the process of trial and error with a lot of luck thrown in your child finds a way to use his or her body to effectively for the ball.

And it is well documented that attempts by professional baseball to "improve" a draftee's abilities to pitch usually end up in failure (a major league baseball club feels they've done a good job if they get 2 players from a draft class of 50 or so players to the major leagues).

My original reason for posting here was an attempt on my part to show how easy it is for those who have little or no knowledge to sound knowledgeable (opinions regarding the inverted W). Anyone who thinks that they are going to make any significant improvements using information from forums such as this one are delusional or just plain lucky at best.

Please don't take this as a general condemnation of everyone who posts. From what I've observed Jake has very altruistic motives in what he does here. And that most of visit here do so because they want to help their son or daughter improve. But it is also been my experience that forums such as this one are dominated by a few individuals (identifiable by the number of post they make) whose real motive is to promote a personal agenda which often times has very little to do with altruism (attempting to help other people) and more to do with satisfying their own personal needs.

Developing high-level throwing capabilities is a lot like religion or politics. It is driven by a belief system. Because there are so many times were your belief system is the only thing that is going to keep you going. Making movement changes to something as ballistic as throwing her swing is a long drawn out process. How often do you see what is being done in practice or under the eye of an instructor totally disappear under game conditions?

What forums (any forum) typically do for the average parent is to either confuse them or to stiffen (reinforce) one's existing belief system. Yes once in awhile a piece of advice will be given that does produce a change in performance. But performance quite often is transitory. What only counts in the long-term is what is referred to as learning. Being able to repeat forever changes under any and all conditions. Performance and learning are not the same things. It is also my very pessimistic view that in the immortal words of Jack Nicholson (Colonel Jessep) while being cross examined by Tom Cruise (Lt. Kaffee) in the movie "A Few Good Men", that the average parent "can't handle the truth".


Jessep: You want answers?
Kaffee I think I'm entitled to them.

Jessep: You want answers?

Kaffee: I want the truth!

Jessep: You can't handle the truth! Son, we live in a world that has walls. And those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago and you curse the Marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives...You don't want the truth. Because deep down, in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall. You need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty...we use these words as the backbone to a life spent defending something. You use 'em as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it! I'd rather you just said thank you and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you're entitled to!

[Chris O'Leary]

You don't want the boy using the motion labeled "long arm".

Why not?

Roy Oswalt is a long-armer and is doing just fine. Plus, he's been injury free.

[Chris O'Leary]

- Greg Maddux
- Tom Glavine
- Nolan Ryan
- Roger Clemens
- Tom Seaver
- Bob Gibson
- Randy Johnson

Contrary to Chris it is my opinion that all of these pitchers incorporate elements of the inverted W.

If you look at clips of Randy Johnson and Greg Maddux, you will see that their PAS elbow never gets above the level of their shoulders after they break their hands and only reaches the level of their shoulders at the release point.

This is very easy to see in this clip of Randy Johnson...



In the photo below, the white line represents the forward lean of the torso and the yellow line is the level of the shoulders.

[Chris O'Leary]

long arm is fine in sense of throwing arm getting extended at elbow at some point after handbreak. Before the arm externally rotates much, however, it needs to get back to about a 90 degree angle at the elbow as this gives the best leverage for loading and unloading the arm loop primarily by external rotation/layback and then internal rotation/rapid acceleration...Deeper flexion at the elbow than about 90 degrees is very stressful as this puts too much emphasis on arm extension in the rapid acceleration and tends to force excessive "forearm twist" at the same time to make the ball go toward the target. This combo of forearm twist and deep flexion at the elbow is very stressful to the flexor mass attachment (medial epicondyle).

I used to believe this, but then I realized that Greg Maddux could be considered a short-armer.





You can see the same thing in the arm action of Roger Clemens...



I don't this this bend of the elbow is as bad as people think it is.

[tom.guerry]

Nyman's original observation that the way the body and arms connect through the shoulder complex is a good one. This connection should not be ignored, even if the swing, for example is "hips and hands"/ You still need to know how the shoulders get "bypassed". Certainly in the throw, you need to know how they work, But in the throw, arm action is still king.

Better understanding of mechanics in golf confirm that there are significantly different overall kinetic chain patterns that are largely dependent on how the body/arm connection is made through the shoulder, for example:

1 plane golf - arms are swungup into the shoulder plane and then stay in shoulder plane for downswing

2 plane golf, arms swing up and down staying in front of body which turns back and forth.

2 successful ways to swing, but 2 vastly different patterns/details/sequences.

MLB hitting, which Nyman is far more ignorant about, involves handle torque and shoulder tilt as hips turn body, again an entirely different pattern, vastly different from PCR or PCRW.

Nyman is better at throwing, but misses the things I have detailed.

The scap "loading" concept was originally described as "pinching" the scap toward the spine which, following kinesological principles, we have described for years as "horizontal aDduction because, kinesiologically, aDduction means moving toward the midline.

In this case the scapula is considered a posterior body structure and the midline it moves to is the spine. we are not talking humerus here.

Unloading of the scap is horizontal AB duction, away from the spine.

Loading/pinching the scap is horizontal AD duction toward the spine.

Loading is actually something somewhat different from kinesiological movement which Nyman does understand.

What Nyman does not understand is the arm action sequence in throwing.

In the mlb hitting pattern, he and Englishbey do not understand how the shoulder or arms work which is a devastating problem for teaching/learning. Nyman tries to make it look like only Englishbey is the ignorant one here, but his understanding of the motion is the same, it's just that he tries to depend on "trial and error" to get the correct (VERY different mlb) pattern.

"Trial and error". Yeah, that's it. And feedback !! Wheehaaaa!!

The trouble with terminology is that "shoulder" is confusing.

The "shoulder" is not a bone.

So when we talk about "internal rotation" we are talking about internal rotation of the humerus in the glenoid of the scap.

When we talk scap, that is a different thing.

It has nothing to do with being a "doctor".

It's "just the facts".

Same with not understanding the pattern in enough detail to not confuse learning.

Same with not knowing your own limitations and screwing kids up.

MAybe Nyman will continue to learn from Stock. Maybe not.

[MadHatter]

Isn't an inverted "W" just an "M""?

[Chris O'Leary]

Isn't an inverted "W" just an "M""?

Basically.

[Jake Patterson]

Please don't take this as a general condemnation of everyone who posts. From what I've observed Jake has very altruistic motives in what he does here. And that most of visit here do so because they want to help their son or daughter improve. But it is also been my experience that forums such as this one are dominated by a few individuals (identifiable by the number of post they make) whose real motive is to promote a personal agenda which often times has very little to do with altruism (attempting to help other people) and more to do with satisfying their own personal needs.
While I appreciate the altruistic compliment, my intent is not to promote any one person or site, and in fact I recommend many. And those tend to be sites that are capable of helping youth coaches in a manner that provides concise, understandable and readily applicable information.

You are correct in one item. I do have an agenda. That is to help provide a site where the average youth coach/parent can participate and obtain sound age/skill appropriate advice while learning to become better coaches comfortably. While I do not consider myself an expert in any aspect of the game I have learned a great deal from many on the internet, to include yourself. But most of what I have learned has been learned on the field and in talking to learned experts in the game. Much of this advice comes from speaking with professional coaches at spring training, attending yearly baseball conventions, taking the time to visit renowned experts like Mike Marshall and others, reading, watching, etc...

My agenda...
Approximately 10 years ago while coaching HS ball I recognized the skill level of our tryout squads declining and set out to understand why. I found that the popularity of the game combined with other social changes have had a negative effect on the level of coaches we now see at the youth levels. With the ever-increasing popularity of the game (2.3 M playing LL alone), we found the talent pool of coaches is dry, leaving many novice coaches, novice in both the art of coaching and the game, to fend for themselves. And while I am not an expert in pitching I do have an M.Ed. with some post-graduate work completed in Education specializing in Andragogy - the study of how adults learn, and have done a fair amount of work studying specialists like Dr, Malcolm Knowles and others (I recommend you read the book The Adult Learner by Knowles). It is my hopes to eventually finish my Ph.D. in this area. This coupled with a successful careers in the military and business does make me somewhat knowledgable in the area of training adults.

This where the rub lies... While there is a need for gurus, self-proclaimed or not, I feel there is a greater need for simple objective, to the point answers for the guys who are in the ditches struggling with the basics each and every day. When they ask a simple question they do not need a five page dissertation on the bio-mechanics of the human body. This is counter productive and the reason why many shy away from guru sites, they simply do not help.

Many baseball gurus feel that in order to do the job properly you need to have an in-depth understanding of each and every skill we use in baseball and are disgusted when coaches just simply go away. They take a, "Well I guess he wasn't serious about learning" attitude. I would posit that if you are serious about learning how to teach these skills to adults YOU are the one who should be doing the work to gain an in depth understanding of the andragagistic methods you should be employing when teaching adult coaches. The Pedagogistic, methods you use combined with the contenscious nature of many gurus simply do not work! This is the reason why many new coaches shy away from those gurus who feel they have the knowledge. It can be so much easier, and so much more pleasent...

[wogdoggy]

Okay I'll bite...how is the long arm bad? With all 4 going at once and not being able to freeze the, I can't really tell..

actually the long arm aint bad..its the short arm whipper that ends up with arm and shoulder problems.not using the body to its fullest creates undue stress on arm and shoulder..

[justthefacts]

You are correct in one item. I do have an agenda. That is to help provide a site where the average youth coach/parent can participate and obtain sound age/skillBut most of what I have learned has been learned on the field and in talking to learned experts in the game. appropriate advice while learning to become better coaches comfortably. While I do not consider myself an expert in any aspect of the game I have learned a great deal from many on the internet, to include yourself. Much of this advice comes from speaking with professional coaches at spring training, attending yearly baseball conventions, taking the time to visit renowned experts like Mike Marshall and others, reading, watching, etc...

I'll be now less than altruistic. Quite less. Totally lacking.


That is to help provide a site where the average youth coach/parent can participate and obtain sound age/skill appropriate advice while learning to become better coaches comfortably.

I don't believe that reaching highest levels of performance has anything to do with comfort. It's a grind. You have to learn how to deal with adversity.


While I do not consider myself an expert in any aspect of the game I have learned a great deal from many on the internet, to include yourself. Much of this advice comes from speaking with professional coaches at spring training, attending yearly baseball conventions, taking the time to visit renowned experts like Mike Marshall and others, reading, watching, etc...

I assume, a bad word, that by a "great deal" then you must have known very little when you started. Because based on the post that I have seen and the post that you allow on this website you know virtually nothing about developing high-level players. Yes Little League coaching is where you belong. That's about your level of expertise, but nothing that even approaches what is necessary for high level player development, again my opinion.


This where the rub lies... While there is a need for gurus, self-proclaimed or not, I feel there is a greater need for simple objective, to the point answers for the guys who are in the ditches struggling with the basics each and every day. When they ask a simple question they do not need a five page dissertation on the bio-mechanics of the human body. This is counter productive and the reason why many shy away from guru sites, they simply do not help.

When it comes to ballistic movements such as throwing, there are very few simple answers. At least very few simple answers that lead to high-level player development. And again this is where you missed the boat in my postings. I only care about those who wish to reach the highest levels of performance. Simple answers simply provide a false sense of security. Simple answers do not require any deep thought. Simple are a copout.


Many baseball gurus feel that in order to do the job properly you need to have an in-depth understanding of each and every skill we use in baseball and are disgusted when coaches just simply go away. They take a, "Well I guess he wasn't serious about learning" attitude. I would posit that if you are serious about learning how to teach these skills to adults YOU are the one who should be doing the work to gain an in depth understanding of the andragagistic methods you should be employing when teaching adult coaches. The Pedagogistic, methods you use combined with the contenscious nature of many gurus simply do not work! This is the reason why many new coaches shy away from those gurus who feel they have the knowledge. It can be so much easier, and so much more pleasent...

A a string of self righteous sounding words which have virtually no practical value. Something that is very common on these forums as evidenced by the discussions regarding the inverted W. comments by people who have actually no clue as to what the inverted W is yet speak with such great authority.

I've yet to meet a coach at ANY level (before being "indoctrinated") who has an in depth knowledge as to how the body actually throws a baseball. And more importantly how to maximize that process in terms of developing a player.

All you have to do is look at the posts on these forums.

For the most part, they are a waste of time for anyone who hopes to maximize their potential.

Case in point:

wogdoggy
Registered User Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: chicago area
Posts: 1,147

Quote:
Originally Posted by randy
Okay I'll bite...how is the long arm bad? With all 4 going at once and not being able to freeze the, I can't really tell..

actually the long arm aint bad..its the short arm whipper that ends up with arm and shoulder problems.not using the body to its fullest creates undue stress on arm and shoulder..

Spoken by someone whose only hope at credibility is emotional appeal to injury prevention. How does the average parent waits for this crap? How does the average totally coach Wade through this crap.

Maybe, just maybe, for Little League play, what is posted on these forums may help a player enjoy the Little League experience. But in terms of long term player development, forget it, my opinion.

The only way that you can judge the value of any "guru" is based upon your own personal experiences. I have always said that if you know enough to evaluate the information on face value you would not need it because you are already there. The only way that you and 99.99% of the world can evaluate the good or bad of information is based upon reputation of the person providing information.

Speaking of reputations, Mike Marshall makes it (reputation) solely on his achievements as a player, in 30 years of working with players, has one player with a cup of coffee at the major-league level, Jeff Sparks. Tom House, with his Ph.D. from the Ph.D. rent-a-center, 25,000+ players later, as possibly one player, Mark Prior that he can point to. I say possibly because it is virtually impossible to demonstrate what house actually did for Prior. I can show you hundreds of players have been destroyed by House. The same can be said for Marshall.

The bottom line is Jake, from the post that I've seen you make, you don't have anything that approaches understanding what constitutes high-level performance. Not only from the standpoint of understanding what high-level performance is from a biomechanical, kinesthetic perspective. And you definitely have no understanding of how to impart an understanding into a player. And if you're happy with your socialistic philosophy that Little League coaching development is a communal effort where everyone is judged to have equal capabilities to contribute, so be it.

But for you to sit in judgment of me anyone else with respect to developing high-level players, how I go about it, the information that is posted on these forums is for the most part a joke.

You talk about trenches, exactly what trenches of you been in? How many players have you gotten to Division I baseball? How many players have you gotten to the minor league's? How many players who at a high school level and had virtually no chance of playing beyond high school have you sent the Division I college baseball?

These are the trenches that I carry the fight from.

Jake if you want to spend your time attempting to save the Little League coaching world, that's your decision. 99.99% of them ain't going to get there no way no how.

The only significant persons that matters in a player's life (and to me) are their parents. What I am interested in is helping the .01% who really want to increase the possibility that their son will come close to maximizing his pitching/throwing potential. This is not a democratic process. You to buy into it or you don't. As I said previously it's a religion, a belief system. There is no room for being nice for the sake of placating egos. Therefore most coaches are virtually useless in terms of wanting to learn, paraphrasing Jack Nicholson "they can't deal with the truth".

It requires hard work on everyone's part. Those that are unwilling to buy into a system either fail or move on to another guru. I do believe that any system is better than no system. The problem is finding the right system.

Everyone has an agenda. Not everyone makes it clear as to what their gender is. Mine is simply to ferret out the best possible information and then try to figure out a way of conveying it so that the .01% who are willing to make do whatever necessary to maximize their son's chances

It's as simple and/or as complicated as that.

[wogdoggy]

I'll be now less than altruistic. Quite less. Totally lacking.



I don't believe that reaching highest levels of performance has anything to do with comfort. It's a grind. You have to learn how to deal with adversity.



I assume, a bad word, that by a "great deal" then you must have known very little when you started. Because based on the post that I have seen and the post that you allow on this website you know virtually nothing about developing high-level players. Yes Little League coaching is where you belong. That's about your level of expertise, but nothing that even approaches what is necessary for high level player development, again my opinion.



When it comes to ballistic movements such as throwing, there are very few simple answers. At least very few simple answers that lead to high-level player development. And again this is where you missed the boat in my postings. I only care about those who wish to reach the highest levels of performance. Simple answers simply provide a false sense of security. Simple answers do not require any deep thought. Simple are a copout.



A a string of self righteous sounding words which have virtually no practical value. Something that is very common on these forums as evidenced by the discussions regarding the inverted W. comments by people who have actually no clue as to what the inverted W is yet speak with such great authority.

I've yet to meet a coach at ANY level (before being "indoctrinated") who has an in depth knowledge as to how the body actually throws a baseball. And more importantly how to maximize that process in terms of developing a player.

All you have to do is look at the posts on these forums.

For the most part, they are a waste of time for anyone who hopes to maximize their potential.

Case in point:

wogdoggy
Registered User Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: chicago area
Posts: 1,147

Quote:
Originally Posted by randy
Okay I'll bite...how is the long arm bad? With all 4 going at once and not being able to freeze the, I can't really tell..

actually the long arm aint bad..its the short arm whipper that ends up with arm and shoulder problems.not using the body to its fullest creates undue stress on arm and shoulder..

Spoken by someone whose only hope at credibility is emotional appeal to injury prevention. How does the average parent waits for this crap? How does the average totally coach Wade through this crap.

Maybe, just maybe, for Little League play, what is posted on these forums may help a player enjoy the Little League experience. But in terms of long term player development, forget it, my opinion.

The only way that you can judge the value of any "guru" is based upon your own personal experiences. I have always said that if you know enough to evaluate the information on face value you would not need it because you are already there. The only way that you and 99.99% of the world can evaluate the good or bad of information is based upon reputation of the person providing information.

Speaking of reputations, Mike Marshall makes it (reputation) solely on his achievements as a player, in 30 years of working with players, has one player with a cup of coffee at the major-league level, Jeff Sparks. Tom House, with his Ph.D. from the Ph.D. rent-a-center, 25,000+ players later, as possibly one player, Mark Prior that he can point to. I say possibly because it is virtually impossible to demonstrate what house actually did for Prior. I can show you hundreds of players have been destroyed by House. The same can be said for Marshall.

The bottom line is Jake, from the post that I've seen you make, you don't have anything that approaches understanding what constitutes high-level performance. Not only from the standpoint of understanding what high-level performance is from a biomechanical, kinesthetic perspective. And you definitely have no understanding of how to impart an understanding into a player. And if you're happy with your socialistic philosophy that Little League coaching development is a communal effort where everyone is judged to have equal capabilities to contribute, so be it.

But for you to sit in judgment of me anyone else with respect to developing high-level players, how I go about it, the information that is posted on these forums is for the most part a joke.

You talk about trenches, exactly what trenches of you been in? How many players have you gotten to Division I baseball? How many players have you gotten to the minor league's? How many players who at a high school level and had virtually no chance of playing beyond high school have you sent the Division I college baseball?

These are the trenches that I carry the fight from.

Jake if you want to spend your time attempting to save the Little League coaching world, that's your decision. 99.99% of them ain't going to get there no way no how.

The only significant persons that matters in a player's life (and to me) are their parents. What I am interested in is helping the .01% who really want to increase the possibility that their son will come close to maximizing his pitching/throwing potential. This is not a democratic process. You to buy into it or you don't. As I said previously it's a religion, a belief system. There is no room for being nice for the sake of placating egos. Therefore most coaches are virtually useless in terms of wanting to learn, paraphrasing Jack Nicholson "they can't deal with the truth".

It requires hard work on everyone's part. Those that are unwilling to buy into a system either fail or move on to another guru. I do believe that any system is better than no system. The problem is finding the right system.

Everyone has an agenda. Not everyone makes it clear as to what their gender is. Mine is simply to ferret out the best possible information and then try to figure out a way of conveying it so that the .01% who are willing to make do whatever necessary to maximize their son's chances

It's as simple and/or as complicated as that.

personally i think anybody who believes in nymans pitching model is lost..how bout you richard,,i guess you dont buy his hit and spin but hes doba with his pitching..short armers have have pitching problems and soreness way more frequently than long armers...you should know that!..geez:highfive:

I can see it in 6, 13 yr old pitchers..the whippers cant pitch more than 3 innings and the long armers can pitch for days.

[Chris O'Leary]

The advantages of the inverted W. have to do with how effectively the sequencing of arm action can be coupled to the action of the body. All pitchers must somehow get through the high hand position. With a slinger the throw begins from the high hand position. With the inverted W, the throw begins prior to the high hand position. This offers an advantage in that there is the potential for creating greater momentum along with the possibility of more effective timing. Not to mention the ability to capture momentum in the form of a elastic energy stored in the connective tissues.

The problem with the highlighted line is that you end up teaching pitchers to habitually rush their throws. They start rotating the shoulders before the forearm is vertical.

As a result, you increase the rate and distance with which the PAS upper arm externally rotates, which increases the load on both the elbow and the shoulder.

I will grant you that this model works, but only for a while. What you tend to see in guys like this is the Chris Carpenter, Mark Prior, or Kerry Wood model where they have a few good years but continually struggle with arm problems.

You also do not see this arm action in guys like Greg Maddux. His shoulders do not start to rotate until his forearm is vertical. Perhaps this costs him a few MPH, but I don't care. Greg Maddux knows how to actually pitch rather than trying to just throw the ball as hard as possible.

Assuming you can throw 85 or so (and Jamie Moyer shows that isn't a hard and fast limit), there's more to life than velocity.

[tom.guerry]

"just the facts" -

You are sounding like another Nyman lapdog incapable of escaping the Nyman "fog machine".

Do you believe like Nyman does that there's no such thing as good mechanics ?

If so, try getting your elbows way above the shoulders like he shows in his inverted "W" with your arms fully internally rotated first.

Getting the elbows that much higher than shoulders will prevent adequate internal rotation which will unecessaruly stress the shoulders and a number of other "bad things".

[XV84]

justthefacts,

I was merely responding to GFK because he "had never seen an MLB pitcher do it". Now, maybe he meant to write "I had never seen an MLB pitcher "successfully" do it". In that case, these 3 pitchers "succesfully" long arm the ball because they recover by getting their elbows flexed.

Then of course there are long armers who don't successfully do it.

But I do agree with you that "long arming" does have the potential to create a "hand grenade throwers". Are you putting down long arming then? Are you advocating one action over another though? I don't think you are. I'm not going to assume that you are. I'm not going to put words in your mouth. You are simply pointing out that the inverted w is an effective way of breaking the hands, if done correctly.

[randy]

Had my son try the thought posted earlier of "using the upper arm to bring the ball out of the glove" during some dry windup and stretches last night. He said it definitely felt better and more natural than worrying about what his hand was doing. We'll see tonight at practice. Mind you, I'm not talking about going above or bhind his shoulder line.
In thinking about all the times I've watched him throw, he may already kind of pinch his shoulder blades together when his arm is Not behind him...never taught him that or even knew there was a name for it("scap loading" I think yall call it). I guess another thing to look for, I guess, but I am pretty sure he does not ge in an extreme M or W position. Like I said, we'll see...
off to practice....

[Jake Patterson]

What I am interested in is helping the .01% who really want to increase the possibility that their son will come close to maximizing his pitching/throwing potential.

Then I think Paul you need to find another forum to find this .01% because the 99.99% who are out there struggling at the youth level are looking for answers that can help them at tonight's practice.

On this we need to agree that we have a difference of opinion and approach.


As I said previously it's a religion, a belief system. No to most it's just a game.


A a string of self righteous sounding words which have virtually no practical value.
And this is where your delivery methods fail. You fail to understand what those self-righteous words are suggesting and/or your arrogance won't allow you to understand that while there may be room for improvement in our teaching methods there is certainly room for improvement in yours (And I am not referring to your baseball information).


But for you to sit in judgment of me anyone else with respect to developing high-level players...
I have never sat in judgement of your methods with respect to developing high level players as I've stated before I feel it's good stuff, I sit in judgement of your delivery methods and how you convey it over the internet... You turn people off.


Everyone has an agenda. Not everyone makes it clear as to what their gender is. Mine is simply to ferret out the best possible information and then try to figure out a way of conveying it so that the .01% who are willing to make do whatever necessary to maximize their son's chances
Then we need to agree there is a mismatch with you and the mission/vision of 101 @ BBF. I will make you this deal however, when the .01% contact me I will send them your way. In the mean time if you can't find a way to contribute and help the other 99.99% in a less than contenscious way then you'll have to take it elsewhere.

[Mark H]

Jake,

Your point about the nature of this board is well taken and not to defend Paul's people skills but, as a point of order, didn't he come on here in defense of his teachings as a result of criticism thereof? I can't blame a man for that regardless of who he is. It IS pretty funny to see Tom attacking Paul's throwing ideas when in the past he has praised them. Carry on folks.

[Jake Patterson]

Jake,

Your point about the nature of this board is well taken and not to defend Paul's people skills but, as a point of order, didn't he come on here in defense of his teachings as a result of criticism thereof? I can't blame a man for that regardless of who he is.

Mark,
No I think Paul drew first blood with his "BS and more BS" post. He sows the seeds of conflict in a veilled attempt to sell product. I simply asked him a question that took him several days to answer. My answer to that question was no don't teach it, his answer to the question was no if you don't know what you are doing don't teach it. Sounds the same to me.

Many, myself included do not know what he knows and based on his information he's produced it is clear he has accomplished considerable work in this area, but getting that information out by attacking everything non-Nyman brings little value to those trying to learn, if fact I would offer it drives people away.

[tom.guerry]

Mark-

Nice to see you continuing to read my posts.

As usual, however, you misrepresent them.

This is no different than what I have said all along.

Nyman has a good model for overhand throw except for his lack of understanding arm action which is supplemented well by Wolforth and Hodge.

His model for hitting is a pathetic departure from what MLB hitters actually do.

Why don't you tell us about your understanding of different "W" 's, or what's different between your current guru and Nyman or what you think of as scap loading or any useful content at all ?

[Erik]

What's up Paul? I haven't heard much from you. How's the site doing? :shhh: :shhh: :shhh:







EL, Shocker

[Erik]

I'll be now less than altruistic. Quite less. Totally lacking.



I don't believe that reaching highest levels of performance has anything to do with comfort. It's a grind. You have to learn how to deal with adversity.



I assume, a bad word, that by a "great deal" then you must have known very little when you started. Because based on the post that I have seen and the post that you allow on this website you know virtually nothing about developing high-level players. Yes Little League coaching is where you belong. That's about your level of expertise, but nothing that even approaches what is necessary for high level player development, again my opinion.



When it comes to ballistic movements such as throwing, there are very few simple answers. At least very few simple answers that lead to high-level player development. And again this is where you missed the boat in my postings. I only care about those who wish to reach the highest levels of performance. Simple answers simply provide a false sense of security. Simple answers do not require any deep thought. Simple are a copout.



A a string of self righteous sounding words which have virtually no practical value. Something that is very common on these forums as evidenced by the discussions regarding the inverted W. comments by people who have actually no clue as to what the inverted W is yet speak with such great authority.

I've yet to meet a coach at ANY level (before being "indoctrinated") who has an in depth knowledge as to how the body actually throws a baseball. And more importantly how to maximize that process in terms of developing a player.

All you have to do is look at the posts on these forums.

For the most part, they are a waste of time for anyone who hopes to maximize their potential.

Case in point:

wogdoggy
Registered User Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: chicago area
Posts: 1,147

Quote:
Originally Posted by randy
Okay I'll bite...how is the long arm bad? With all 4 going at once and not being able to freeze the, I can't really tell..

actually the long arm aint bad..its the short arm whipper that ends up with arm and shoulder problems.not using the body to its fullest creates undue stress on arm and shoulder..

Spoken by someone whose only hope at credibility is emotional appeal to injury prevention. How does the average parent waits for this crap? How does the average totally coach Wade through this crap.

Maybe, just maybe, for Little League play, what is posted on these forums may help a player enjoy the Little League experience. But in terms of long term player development, forget it, my opinion.

The only way that you can judge the value of any "guru" is based upon your own personal experiences. I have always said that if you know enough to evaluate the information on face value you would not need it because you are already there. The only way that you and 99.99% of the world can evaluate the good or bad of information is based upon reputation of the person providing information.

Speaking of reputations, Mike Marshall makes it (reputation) solely on his achievements as a player, in 30 years of working with players, has one player with a cup of coffee at the major-league level, Jeff Sparks. Tom House, with his Ph.D. from the Ph.D. rent-a-center, 25,000+ players later, as possibly one player, Mark Prior that he can point to. I say possibly because it is virtually impossible to demonstrate what house actually did for Prior. I can show you hundreds of players have been destroyed by House. The same can be said for Marshall.

The bottom line is Jake, from the post that I've seen you make, you don't have anything that approaches understanding what constitutes high-level performance. Not only from the standpoint of understanding what high-level performance is from a biomechanical, kinesthetic perspective. And you definitely have no understanding of how to impart an understanding into a player. And if you're happy with your socialistic philosophy that Little League coaching development is a communal effort where everyone is judged to have equal capabilities to contribute, so be it.

But for you to sit in judgment of me anyone else with respect to developing high-level players, how I go about it, the information that is posted on these forums is for the most part a joke.

You talk about trenches, exactly what trenches of you been in? How many players have you gotten to Division I baseball? How many players have you gotten to the minor league's? How many players who at a high school level and had virtually no chance of playing beyond high school have you sent the Division I college baseball?

These are the trenches that I carry the fight from.

Jake if you want to spend your time attempting to save the Little League coaching world, that's your decision. 99.99% of them ain't going to get there no way no how.

The only significant persons that matters in a player's life (and to me) are their parents. What I am interested in is helping the .01% who really want to increase the possibility that their son will come close to maximizing his pitching/throwing potential. This is not a democratic process. You to buy into it or you don't. As I said previously it's a religion, a belief system. There is no room for being nice for the sake of placating egos. Therefore most coaches are virtually useless in terms of wanting to learn, paraphrasing Jack Nicholson "they can't deal with the truth".

It requires hard work on everyone's part. Those that are unwilling to buy into a system either fail or move on to another guru. I do believe that any system is better than no system. The problem is finding the right system.

Everyone has an agenda. Not everyone makes it clear as to what their gender is. Mine is simply to ferret out the best possible information and then try to figure out a way of conveying it so that the .01% who are willing to make do whatever necessary to maximize their son's chances

It's as simple and/or as complicated as that.



Paul,
this sounds good but you kick people off your site and create enemy's FNR. Please explain how you reach parents and players with this control tactic. I think you have a lot to offer but you sank your battle ship IMO! Apoligize for your past.



EL,

[randy]

So, as I try to make my son's arm motion more efficient and consistent, IS the thought of "use the upper arm to take the ball ot of the glove and back" a good thought for him to try to put into action???

[Mark H]

Mark,
No I think Paul drew first blood with his "BS and more BS" post. .

I'm uncomfortable in this position of defending Paul but in the interests of accuracy I took the post you speak of as a reaction to criticism of his teachings.

[Mark H]

Mark-

Nice to see you continuing to read my posts.



I don't think I've been able to sustain interest in one of your posts long enough to make it all the way through in years. I HAVE read the first part of some of them. It's just not time well spent IMO.

[Mark H]

Paul,
this sounds good but you kick people off your site and create enemy's FNR. Please explain how you reach parents and players with this control tactic. I think you have a lot to offer but you sank your battle ship IMO! Apoligize for your past.



EL,

Yes. As many enemies as he has garnered, he is his own worst. One of my pet peeves is wasted potential of which he is the poster child as demonstrated in this thread where he has done some very nice work and managed to irritate a bunch of people all in one thread.

[Stealth]

I get lost in all of this stuff..............but it is fun reading!:)

[randy]

Excuse me, but in case you guys don't remember me, I'm the dad who was asking for advice...remember??? If you guys can put the "guru pissing match" on hold for a sec, could someone give me their OPINION about the question I posted 2 or 3 posts earlier about "using the upper arm to bring the hand out of the glove and back". Would this help my son develop a more efficient, consisten, safe arm motion?

[Erik]

Randy,
I think it's a combination of the elbow and the upperarm working together. This would help set the elbow and the shoulder in a more functional safe position.





EL,

[justthefacts]

Your point about the nature of this board is well taken and not to defend Paul's people skills but, as a point of order, didn't he come on here in defense of his teachings as a result of criticism thereof?

I can only hope there are few more people who can wade through the BS that gets passed off as patriotism, motherhood and apple pie. How often does Paul Nyman get slammed on his website. And yet so much the information and principles developed by SETPRO shows up here here, especially in a hitting area and most the time with absolutely no reference to where it came from.

Talk about hypocrisy.

The only reason I came here was to show that all of the inverted W criticism posted in this thread is smoke and mirrors. And that claims made by O'Leary, Jake and others are not true when they say that the inverted W creates more susceptibility to injury AND is supported by fact. It's not. No doctor, researcher, nor anyone else with a shred of credibility has ever said anything regarding inverted W. Most don't even understand the concept. Which brings me to the point that I tried to make that those who are most vocal criticizing it haven't even taken the time or made the effort to invest in the information explaining what the inverted W is and how it works. That's the problem I have with these forums.

And to those who need greater clarification, people who post their opinions as facts are screwing you and your kids.

People criticize me for being "dictatorial". If dictatorial means not allowing what I know or believe to be false information, hearsay, fabrication, ramblings to be posted on the SETPRO forums that I am guilty as charged. And I make no apologies.

Jake said


Then I think Paul you need to find another forum to find this .01% because the 99.99% who are out there struggling at the youth level are looking for answers that can help them at tonight's practice.

On this we need to agree that we have a difference of opinion and approach.

I will repeat again for those who have a hard time comprehending, My ONLY reason for coming here was that I got tired of people who did not know what they were talking about (inverted W) passing themselves off as if they did. And for those who don't see this, I suspect that you are so blind that you'll never ever find the accorn (as even blind squirrels fight in acorn once in a while) necessary to maximize your players capabilities.


Quote:
As I said previously it's a religion, a belief system.

No to most it's just a game.

Jake you definitely see things much differently than I do. 95% of the posts I see on this website are from people seeking information to improve their capabilities. I don't think it's a game to them. I think they take it very seriously as in wanting to improve their performance either as a player, parent or coach.


Quote:
A a string of self righteous sounding words which have virtually no practical value.

And this is where your delivery methods fail. You fail to understand what those self-righteous words are suggesting and/or your arrogance won't allow you to understand that while there may be room for improvement in our teaching methods there is certainly room for improvement in yours (And I am not referring to your baseball information).

Right or wrong it is my opinion that if you want to be the very best you have to learn how to deal with adversity. As flawed as I think most baseball instruction is especially the major-league player development system (for that matter the entire culture (religion) of baseball instruction), I have said many times that maybe that's the way it needs to be. Because of the player can get through (survive) all the instructional BS that he is going to encounter along the way and still succeed then probably he has the right stuff to succeed at the major-league level.


Quote:
But for you to sit in judgment of me anyone else with respect to developing high-level players...

I have never sat in judgement of your methods with respect to developing high level players as I've stated before I feel it's good stuff, I sit in judgement of your delivery methods and how you convey it over the internet... You turn people off.

Again Jake, with respect to this issue, you are blinder than a blind squirrel. Your comments regarding inverted W are a judgment of my methods. And you compounded it by implying that they were experts who felt the same way you did. Not being able to see this possibly explains why you take such exception to what I have posted.


Quote:
Everyone has an agenda. Not everyone makes it clear as to what their gender is. Mine is simply to ferret out the best possible information and then try to figure out a way of conveying it so that the .01% who are willing to make do whatever necessary to maximize their son's chances

Then we need to agree there is a mismatch with you and the mission/vision of 101 @ BBF. I will make you this deal however, when the .01% contact me I will send them your way. In the mean time if you can't find a way to contribute and help the other 99.99% in a less than contenscious way then you'll have to take it elsewhere.

I will explain again, for the blind squirrels, in a moment of weakness, weakness being that I got sick and tired of people who know nothing about the inverted W. speaking with such authority, I decided to try and show how little these people really knew. But then again I should've known better because most of the people who post here with any frequency are blind squirrels and couldn't see the acorn if it was right in front of the nose.

I DID NOT COME HERE TO CHANGE THE CULTURE OF THIS FORUM.

I came here to try to demonstrate to anyone who has even the smallest ability to recognize rational logic, that Chris Oleary's, Jake Peterson's hearsay and opinions regarding inverted W have no factual support. First and foremost because neither of them knows what the inverted W is other than what they think it is.

Which boiled down to Jake Peterson asking the question do I think the inverted W is harmful for young players. And yes I could've simply answered by saying they'll I do not think it is harmful "if"...... But the problem is in explaining the "if". To make my point regarding the "if" and to support my opinion regarding inverted W, I felt it necessary to demonstrate that it was simply Chris O'Leary and Jake Peterson offering their opinions on something they actually knew nothing about (inverted W). And Jake Peterson stirred the pot when he attempted to support his position by implying that other people such as Fleisig, Andrews, etc had come out against the inverted W. Which is totally false. And that the "if" is "if you know what you are doing". Which 99.99% of the people here don't. So the answer is if the player exhibits the inverted W on his own don't change it. But if you don't know what you're doing don't try to teach it.

Offering opinions disguised as fact was not tolerated on the SETPRO forums. Neither were incessant attacks with no foundation other than to show how much the person making the attacks thought they knew. Hearsay, opinion, is fine but not when it is presented as fact. Fact as I define it is peer-reviewed research and/or opinion by those who are recognized experts in the field.

I will also say again what I said many times, baseball is the most primitive of all sports with respect to adhering to anything that resembles scientific method or rational logic. Baseball instruction is built almost exclusively on hearsay and hand-me-downs from days gone bye. This problem has been compounded by video and the Internet where everyone and anyone becomes an expert. And by this I mean that they see what they are capable of seeing.

One of biggest comedies on the Internet with respect to attempting to prove a point is when someone attempts to support their theory on hitting or pitching by saying go look at a videotape of a major-league player. The only thing that persons going to see is what they already know or perceive. As in we are only capable of seeing what we are capable of seeing.

Jake your agenda here appears to be and attempt to be the United Nations baseball instruction and coaching. You might also call this a baseball coaching and instruction democracy where everybody has their say no matter what. That's fine are the moderator and therefore whatever the forum is the result of your actions or in actions as it may be.

I prefer what might be termed "Israeli approach" to getting the job done (developing players), short on words long on action.

I have said many times it is my personal belief that "democratic forums" (bordering on anarchy) achieveme little or nothing with respect to quantifiable results. Possibly their greatest value is the point someone in another direction. Again this is based on my premise that if you're coming here looking for information (opinions), and given 15 different answers, you're most likely going to choose the answer that already corresponds to what you know something about. With respect to changing human movement such as throwing and swinging, I will repeat again what I said before, there are no simple answers.

And I think Randy supports my perspective:


Excuse me, but in case you guys don't remember me, I'm the dad who was asking for advice...remember??? If you guys can put the "guru pissing match" on hold for a sec, could someone give me their OPINION about the question I posted 2 or 3 posts earlier ....

Because for the .01% parent or player who really is on a mission and is prepared to make the sacrifices necessary, posters whose only mission is to show how much they know by showing how much they don't know are a waste of time. I simply would not let long drawn out, unsupported, exercises in chest pounding occur. And a lot of people got pissed off because I wouldn't. And many of those people found this website.

Enough said.

[wogdoggy]

Your point about the nature of this board is well taken and not to defend Paul's people skills but, as a point of order, didn't he come on here in defense of his teachings as a result of criticism thereof?

I can only hope there are few more people who can wade through the BS that gets passed off as patriotism, motherhood and apple pie. How often does Paul Nyman get slammed on his website. And yet so much the information and principles developed by SETPRO shows up here here, especially in a hitting area and most the time with absolutely no reference to where it came from.

Talk about hypocrisy.

The only reason I came here was to show that all of the inverted W criticism posted in this thread is smoke and mirrors. And that claims made by O'Leary, Jake and others are not true when they say that the inverted W creates more susceptibility to injury AND is supported by fact. It's not. No doctor, researcher, nor anyone else with a shred of credibility has ever said anything regarding inverted W. Most don't even understand the concept. Which brings me to the point that I tried to make that those who are most vocal criticizing it haven't even taken the time or made the effort to invest in the information explaining what the inverted W is and how it works. That's the problem I have with these forums.

And to those who need greater clarification, people who post their opinions as facts are screwing you and your kids.

People criticize me for being "dictatorial". If dictatorial means not allowing what I know or believe to be false information, hearsay, fabrication, ramblings to be posted on the SETPRO forums that I am guilty as charged. And I make no apologies.

Jake said



I will repeat again for those who have a hard time comprehending, My ONLY reason for coming here was that I got tired of people who did not know what they were talking about (inverted W) passing themselves off as if they did. And for those who don't see this, I suspect that you are so blind that you'll never ever find the accorn (as even blind squirrels fight in acorn once in a while) necessary to maximize your players capabilities.



Jake you definitely see things much differently than I do. 95% of the posts I see on this website are from people seeking information to improve their capabilities. I don't think it's a game to them. I think they take it very seriously as in wanting to improve their performance either as a player, parent or coach.



Right or wrong it is my opinion that if you want to be the very best you have to learn how to deal with adversity. As flawed as I think most baseball instruction is especially the major-league player development system (for that matter the entire culture (religion) of baseball instruction), I have said many times that maybe that's the way it needs to be. Because of the player can get through (survive) all the instructional BS that he is going to encounter along the way and still succeed then probably he has the right stuff to succeed at the major-league level.



Again Jake, with respect to this issue, you are blinder than a blind squirrel. Your comments regarding inverted W are a judgment of my methods. And you compounded it by implying that they were experts who felt the same way you did. Not being able to see this possibly explains why you take such exception to what I have posted.



I will explain again, for the blind squirrels, in a moment of weakness, weakness being that I got sick and tired of people who know nothing about the inverted W. speaking with such authority, I decided to try and show how little these people really knew. But then again I should've known better because most of the people who post here with any frequency are blind squirrels and couldn't see the acorn if it was right in front of the nose.

I DID NOT COME HERE TO CHANGE THE CULTURE OF THIS FORUM.

I came here to try to demonstrate to anyone who has even the smallest ability to recognize rational logic, that Chris Oleary's, Jake Peterson's hearsay and opinions regarding inverted W have no factual support. First and foremost because neither of them knows what the inverted W is other than what they think it is.

Which boiled down to Jake Peterson asking the question do I think the inverted W is harmful for young players. And yes I could've simply answered by saying they'll I do not think it is harmful "if"...... But the problem is in explaining the "if". To make my point regarding the "if" and to support my opinion regarding inverted W, I felt it necessary to demonstrate that it was simply Chris O'Leary and Jake Peterson offering their opinions on something they actually knew nothing about (inverted W). And Jake Peterson stirred the pot when he attempted to support his position by implying that other people such as Fleisig, Andrews, etc had come out against the inverted W. Which is totally false. And that the "if" is "if you know what you are doing". Which 99.99% of the people here don't. So the answer is if the player exhibits the inverted W on his own don't change it. But if you don't know what you're doing don't try to teach it.

Offering opinions disguised as fact was not tolerated on the SETPRO forums. Neither were incessant attacks with no foundation other than to show how much the person making the attacks thought they knew. Hearsay, opinion, is fine but not when it is presented as fact. Fact as I define it is peer-reviewed research and/or opinion by those who are recognized experts in the field.

I will also say again what I said many times, baseball is the most primitive of all sports with respect to adhering to anything that resembles scientific method or rational logic. Baseball instruction is built almost exclusively on hearsay and hand-me-downs from days gone bye. This problem has been compounded by video and the Internet where everyone and anyone becomes an expert. And by this I mean that they see what they are capable of seeing.

One of biggest comedies on the Internet with respect to attempting to prove a point is when someone attempts to support their theory on hitting or pitching by saying go look at a videotape of a major-league player. The only thing that persons going to see is what they already know or perceive. As in we are only capable of seeing what we are capable of seeing.

Jake your agenda here appears to be and attempt to be the United Nations baseball instruction and coaching. You might also call this a baseball coaching and instruction democracy where everybody has their say no matter what. That's fine are the moderator and therefore whatever the forum is the result of your actions or in actions as it may be.

I prefer what might be termed "Israeli approach" to getting the job done (developing players), short on words long on action.

I have said many times it is my personal belief that "democratic forums" (bordering on anarchy) achieveme little or nothing with respect to quantifiable results. Possibly their greatest value is the point someone in another direction. Again this is based on my premise that if you're coming here looking for information (opinions), and given 15 different answers, you're most likely going to choose the answer that already corresponds to what you know something about. With respect to changing human movement such as throwing and swinging, I will repeat again what I said before, there are no simple answers.

And I think Randy supports my perspective:



Because for the .01% parent or player who really is on a mission and is prepared to make the sacrifices necessary, posters whose only mission is to show how much they know by showing how much they don't know are a waste of time. I simply would not let long drawn out, unsupported, exercises in chest pounding occur. And a lot of people got pissed off because I wouldn't. And many of those people found this website.

Enough said.

God has arrived at baseball fever..lol..:hp or at least 0.1% of him has..

[AcidLake]

Wait, so he IS Paul Nyman???

[Jake Patterson]

I'm uncomfortable in this position of defending Paul but in the interests of accuracy I took the post you speak of as a reaction to criticism of his teachings.

Putting the timing issue aside ... Reacting to criticism is fine, defending yourself is fine, technique discussion is fine... what's problematic is the personal attacks.

[tom.guerry]

Randy-

Could you restate the questions that you are mst interested in ? Sorry for the transwebsite diversion.


Mark H-

You still try to justify Nyman's behavior on the basis of the info being good.

The info is bad and the "science" is bogus.

He "uses" science to confuse and insulate, not clarify.

He is just plain wrong about key aspects of throwing and way moreso hitting.

You would do well to review Hodge about the importance of the arm action sequence in breaking the hands and setting good timing of upper and lower body for coiling. You can not throw well without this no matter how you load your scaps or turn your back hip into the front. Hodge also explains how the sequence/positions relate to lower stress and more consistent release as well as how velocity is improved.

Nyman is hopeless in hitting where he has no clue how the shoulders actually work. The idea that PCR has anything to do with how mlb hitters swing is ludicrous. The idea that when it is tweaked to be PCR/W and the right kind of training apporach is just the fog machine trying to deal with the inadequacy of the building code.

Nyman is just using Stock's success, the same way he "uses" science.

Sort of like he used Steve's student to discredit Steve. Steve is doomed to failure as long as he follows Nyman's info too closely.

You'll figure all this out eventually.

Slaught and Candrea are MUCH closer to the truth with their emphasis on back arm rock skipping action.

Lau Jr and EPstein are WAY closer to the true mlb pattern description of lead arm action (and especially shoulder action as emphasized by Epstein).

Hope you have the epiphany soon.

[wogdoggy]

Randy-

Could you restate the questions that you are mst interested in ? Sorry for the transwebsite diversion.


Mark H-

You still try to justify Nyman's behavior on the basis of the info being good.

The info is bad and the "science" is bogus.

He "uses" science to confuse and insulate, not clarify.

He is just plain wrong about key aspects of throwing and way moreso hitting.

You would do well to review Hodge about the importance of the arm action sequence in breaking the hands and setting good timing of upper and lower body for coiling. You can not throw well without this no matter how you load your scaps or turn your back hip into the front. Hodge also explains how the sequence/positions relate to lower stress and more consistent release as well as how velocity is improved.

Nyman is hopeless in hitting where he has no clue how the shoulders actually work. The idea that PCR has anything to do with how mlb hitters swing is ludicrous. The idea that when it is tweaked to be PCR/W and the right kind of training apporach is just the fog machine trying to deal with the inadequacy of the building code.

Nyman is just using Stock's success, the same way he "uses" science.

Sort of like he used Steve's student to discredit Steve. Steve is doomed to failure as long as he follows Nyman's info too closely.

You'll figure all this out eventually.

Slaught and Candrea are MUCH closer to the truth with their emphasis on back arm rock skipping action.

Lau Jr and EPstein are WAY closer to the true mlb pattern description of lead arm action (and especially shoulder action as emphasized by Epstein).

Hope you have the epiphany soon.







Nyman is hopeless in hitting where he has no clue how the shoulders actually work. The idea that PCR has anything to do with how mlb hitters swing is ludicrous. The idea that when it is tweaked to be PCR/W and the right kind of training apporach is just the fog machine trying to deal with the inadequacy of the building code.

Nyman is just using Stock's success, the same way he "uses" science.



Tom surely has nyman figured out..


im sure a kid like stock would be a success without nyman as well.the whole spiel is old and predictable..:rofl: :thumbsdown:

[randy]

The question was, and still is, as I try to teach my soon-to-be 12 yo a more consistent, efficient, SAFE throwing motion, is the thought posted earlier about "using the upper arm to take the ball out of the glove and back" one that will get him in a good position? Am I better served letting him however feels right to him?
"the only person hurt in a pissing match is the one in the middle"-from a friend of mine

[Mark H]

Right or wrong it is my opinion that if you want to be the very best you have to learn how to deal with adversity. As flawed as I think most baseball instruction is especially the major-league player development system (for that matter the entire culture (religion) of baseball instruction), I have said many times that maybe that's the way it needs to be. Because of the player can get through (survive) all the instructional BS that he is going to encounter along the way and still succeed then probably he has the right stuff to succeed at the major-league level. .

That's kind of interesting. Baseball instruction viewed as an exended pledge hazing. lol





One of biggest comedies on the Internet with respect to attempting to prove a point is when someone attempts to support their theory on hitting or pitching by saying go look at a videotape of a major-league player. The only thing that persons going to see is what they already know or perceive. As in we are only capable of seeing what we are capable of seeing.

.

Wellllllll....let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater, to use an OLD saying, just yet. Your point is well taken to an extent, but, if the average dad has a better truth detector available to him I'd like to know what it is. I agree people tend to see what they expect in video, BUT, if they read all the dissenting opinions and compare them all to lots of video, I think they have a pretty good shot at discerning truth from bs. Doesn't always work as demonstrated by Tom but I haven't found anything better for the average dad trying to sort things out.

[Mark H]

Mark H-

You still try to justify Nyman's behavior on the basis of the info being good.

.

Apparently you don't read my posts through any more than I read yours all the way through. Come to think of it, your statement is ironic coming from someone whose chief ally is Richard/Joebad/Twinengine etc.

[Mark H]

Excuse me, but in case you guys don't remember me, I'm the dad who was asking for advice...remember??? If you guys can put the "guru pissing match" on hold for a sec, could someone give me their OPINION about the question I posted 2 or 3 posts earlier about "using the upper arm to bring the hand out of the glove and back". Would this help my son develop a more efficient, consisten, safe arm motion?

LOL Yeah well this is what happens sometimes on the net. I don't study throwing like I have hitting but I'll offer that you should research the two people's materials I mentioned earlier. Getting on Rick Collins website would be a very good idea as well. PM me if you want the link. Good luck with your favorite ball player there. :)

[Jake Patterson]

The question was, and still is, as I try to teach my soon-to-be 12 yo a more consistent, efficient, SAFE throwing motion, is the thought posted earlier about "using the upper arm to take the ball out of the glove and back" one that will get him in a good position? Am I better served letting him however feels right to him?
"the only person hurt in a pissing match is the one in the middle"-from a friend of mine

Randy,
I apologize for the degrading effects you see. It won't continue much longer. The problem we have here is those willing to answer won't because of the bantering. Check your PM.
Jake

[Mark H]

Putting the timing issue aside ... Reacting to criticism is fine, defending yourself is fine, technique discussion is fine... what's problematic is the personal attacks.

Yeah well NO ONE, including Paul, ever described him as a well balanced nice guy with people skills. It's a shame since he has so much to offer to the debate if he could maintain some semblance of...well some semblance of what he so obviously lacks. I don't view that as excusing his behavior as Tom wants to say but we all tend to wish the talented performers we have seen didn't act like Terrell Owens but rather more like Roger Staubach. The performers with no talent who act like Terrell Owens we don't tend to spend much time thinking about. Or to draw an analogy to the net, we quit reading their posts all the way through.

[tom.guerry]

Randy-

Using the upper arms can be a good feel cue.

Nyman, who has many things right, likes the throw the elbow cue for later in the throw (rapid acceleration), but the concept is the same in the emphasis on "arm action as king".

Nyman structures things in a way that fits best with a "backward chaining" type approach where you start with release and work backward.

You are asking the opposite type question which is how do we start the motion from the beginning/break hands.

Hodge is the gold standard for this in my opinion. You should get his tape. People here who have it can PM you if you want to see it. My copies are loaned out.
Hodge forward chain summary:

Get sideways to target.

break hands using symmetric arm action with a combo of internal rotation and aBduction - break hands with elbows up and palms down ( or palms out if there is MORE associated forearm pronation).

Nyman likes to add scap pinch (horizontal ADduction as we have called it for years) at this point using the cue "lift (arms) and pinch (scaps)".

Stride forward toward target as the arms lift, keeping front knee closed.

when the throwing hand starts up (external rotation of back arm) at the same time (to synch upper/lower body/coil well) the front thigh turns over (external rotation of lead leg). This is when the front knee flares open/front foot starts opening. Whether or not the arms get extended at the elbow after handbreak (long vs short arm) the back elbow needs to get back to about 90 degrees at this point (not narrower as this will force later acceleration by too much extension rather than internal rotation).


At the same time, the front arm which internally rotated at the same time as the back arm in the handbreak, must internally rotate more/stay fully internally rotated, and both arms/elbows must stay up as much as possible although these other more primary actions will force them down some.


This will promote good coil without the front shoulder flying open. As the motion proceeds, the twist will work up the torso and turn the shoulders.

This is necessary upper body detail to go along with the "stepover" (Nyman cue) to get good coiling/rubberbandwinding underway.

Again, when the throwing hand comes up, the front thigh turns over, or perhaps slightly better, when the thigh turns over, the throwing hand starts up.

Keep the weight back until the shoulder turn forward starts.
Then when the shoulder turn starts, bring the weight forward vigorously.

See details on tape about how loading must be done smoothly to avoid anterior shoulder stress.

Land on a firmly flexed front leg. (this lengthens deceleration which lowers posterior shoulder stress).

Pronate arm more through release. This lowers elbow stress.
Try for pure underspin for basic overhand throw mechanics.

Forearms stay more "rag loose" as compared to arms which is why using the arms or throwing the elbow are useful feel descriptions.

A three quarters type arm slot is a good place to start. Arm slot is largely determined by posture, not how much you lift the arms.

Keep the feel of staying on top both in terms of the grip and keeping fingers on top after handbreak, but also keep the feel of staying on top or behind ball through acceleration as this is the "feel" of a good acceleration sequence lead primarily by internal rotation with arm extension being secondary.

The main thing missing in all this in my opinion is a specific description of the "hip c-o-c-k" concept which as Williams said in hitting you just learn naturally. Dixon is about the only one who tries to address how this "baeachball" (Nyman cue) positon is achieved/maintained with "torso activation"/"offcenter balance"/"forward by turning"/"carry".

It is learned naturally WAY more easily in throwing than hitting, but still may have to be consciously taught evn in throwing.

[tom.guerry]

'just the facts' -

you might want to peruse this to understand shoulder kinesiology better and nyman's confusion//senility/fog//revisionism;

http://connection.lww.com/products/Oatis/documents/smch8.pdf

notice the scapula motion as i describd it at the scapulothoracic 'joint' includes adduction toward spine and abduction away from spine. this is also called horizontal abduction and adduction.

now here is a quote from nyman about scap loading/adduction in hitting (hitting in this case since this old post is trying to trash Mankin, but same terminology as throwing) - nyman still has no clue about torquing handle, or is too embarassed to now admit it.

the pompous one said:

http://setpro.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-2516.html

"One of the first books that I purchased is titled "Anatomy of Movement". Probably one of the best books in terms of being able understand something that can be very difficult to comprehend.....

"One of the problems with anatomical movement is the terminology. Terms like flexion, extension, medial, lateral, abduction, adduction, proximal, distal, frontal, coronal, etc. all have meaning that are specific as applied to human movement. Also there is inconsistency in terms of use of the terminology. As an example some text use shoulder flexion others use shoulder adduction. And unfortunately what one would term as "common sense" i.e. trying to apply everyday terminology many times does not work in terms of conveying movement descriptions as compared to what is defined anatomically......

"One of the standards that I have tried to set at SETPRO is to be consistent in terms of concepts and terminology. And wherever possible to use industry excepted terminology and descriptions. One of the great problems that exists in baseball is total ignorance with respect to anything that approaches science or scientific methods.......


"Scapula loading is my way of saying rapid horizontal adduction of the shoulder. And rapid horizontal adduction the shoulder is critical to developing a good swing. Because rapid horizontal adduction the shoulder not only provides significant additional power one unloads but is also important in maintaining connection of the bat to the body during the swing process."



---or it used to be his way of saying it, but now his faulty memory/trying to keep too many lies straight, he says;

'In the early days of SETPRO I recognized the importance of horizontal abduction to the throwing process. Instead of using the technical term horizontal abduction are used what I considered a more descriptive term, descriptive respect to throwing a baseball, at term being scapula loading."


better check with him and see what he really means.

[wogdoggy]

Yeah well NO ONE, including Paul, ever described him as a well balanced nice guy with people skills. It's a shame since he has so much to offer to the debate if he could maintain some semblance of...well some semblance of what he so obviously lacks. I don't view that as excusing his behavior as Tom wants to say but we all tend to wish the talented performers we have seen didn't act like Terrell Owens but rather more like Roger Staubach. The performers with no talent who act like Terrell Owens we don't tend to spend much time thinking about. Or to draw an analogy to the net, we quit reading their posts all the way through.



If he were a terrell owens it would be different..hes no "terrell ownes" Damn I'm old..lol..terrell owens.

[Chris O'Leary]

The question was, and still is, as I try to teach my soon-to-be 12 yo a more consistent, efficient, SAFE throwing motion, is the thought posted earlier about "using the upper arm to take the ball out of the glove and back" one that will get him in a good position? Am I better served letting him however feels right to him?
"the only person hurt in a pissing match is the one in the middle"-from a friend of mine

I think this is bad advice.

It's certainly not what Greg Maddux does.

I am teaching my son, and all the kids I coach, to copy guys like...

- Greg Maddux
- Tom Glavine
- Jeff Suppan
- Dan Haren
- Roy Oswalt
- Jamie Moyer

[wogdoggy]

:hyper: :hyper: Because for the .01% parent or player who really is on a mission and is prepared to make the sacrifices necessary, posters whose only mission is to show how much they know by showing how much they don't know are a waste of time


yad yada yada,,the classic takeaway..hopefully you qualify to be that .01 percent..this guy is so predicatable its absolutely pathetic

SNAKE OIL SALES..

[JJA]

Guys,

I think one of the key points here is that we shouldn't be changing the inverted W arm action of the kids who naturally throw that way. The natural differences between individuals means that the inverted W arm action may be perfectly safe for that person, and for others a slinging motion may appropriate. These isn't anything more than anectodal evidence that the inverted W arm action is any more dangerous than any other. Don Drysdale had a very pronounced inverted W, and yet was one of the most durable pitchers in baseball history (averaging an astonishing 265 innings per year over an 11 year period). Bert Blyleven also had an inverted W (though not as pronounced as Drysdale), yet pitched 22 years and nearly 5000 innings in the big leagues! When you little league coaches have a child on your team with the inverted W, remember that you might have another Drysdale or Blyleven. Just think if someone had changed their arm action in little league. Would they have made the big leagues? Could they have made it with a fastball that was 3-5 mph slower?

Finally, I had to make a comment on the following quote.


You also do not see this arm action in guys like Greg Maddux. His shoulders do not start to rotate until his forearm is vertical. Perhaps this costs him a few MPH, but I don't care. Greg Maddux knows how to actually pitch rather than trying to just throw the ball as hard as possible.

Assuming you can throw 85 or so (and Jamie Moyer shows that isn't a hard and fast limit), there's more to life than velocity.
__________________


Nice sentiment, but it sure isn't reflected in the MLB draft. A guy who throws 93-94 can become an instant multi-millionaire as a first round pick, while a guy throwing 88-89 might not get drafted. Those last few MPH can make the difference between a kid playing pro ball or pumping gas at the local station. Maybe MLB shouldn't feel that way, but draft after draft after draft shows that's exactly how they feel and act. If a kid naturally throws hard using the inverted W, we coaches should absolutely, 100% not change a kids arm action to lose velocity in the misguided attempt to make it safer for them. There is no hard data supporting such a position. It's a classic example of bad coaching being much worse than no coaching at all.

-JJA

[randy]

very good from both of the above posts. Wog, I agree-way too much blah, blah and medical terms. If I wanted that, I would have gone to an ortho or my kinesiology professor. And, JJA, I also agree-just had a little frontyard throwing session with both sons, concentrating on lower body alignment and timing. Amazing that when that is good, everything else works as it should. I'm going to go back to letting them find their natural arm motion. Thanks to everyone who tried to actually help...peace, ya'll.

[wogdoggy]

I'm going to go back to letting them find their natural arm motion. Thanks to everyone who tried to actually help...peace, ya'll.




best idea yet!

[bronxkid]

The natural differences between individuals means that the inverted W arm action may be perfectly safe for that person, and for others a slinging motion may appropriate. These isn't anything more than anectodal evidence that the inverted W arm action is any more dangerous than any other.


Bravo! :applaud:

I really wish Chris would read this line but I seriously doubt it will sink in with him. Oh well I guess comparing still pictures and lack of even playing baseball, or throwing a ball for that matter, will change his tune. :sorry:

[tom.guerry]

JJA/PCR "scientist" -

Still denying hand torque before the shoulders turn in hitting ?

[Mark H]

Well I did read that post all the way through Tom but it appears to be in the wrong thread.

[Chris O'Leary]

I think one of the key points here is that we shouldn't be changing the inverted W arm action of the kids who naturally throw that way. The natural differences between individuals means that the inverted W arm action may be perfectly safe for that person

I disagree wholeheartedly.

I would change a kid's arm action if he made the Inverted W. Fortunately, most kids don't. They have to be taught it.



These isn't anything more than anectodal evidence that the inverted W arm action is any more dangerous than any other. Don Drysdale had a very pronounced inverted W, and yet was one of the most durable pitchers in baseball history (averaging an astonishing 265 innings per year over an 11 year period).

First, why would you advocate the Inverted W when you don't see it in the mechanics of guys like...

- Greg Maddux
- Nolan Ryan
- Roger Clemens
- David Wells

Second, Don Drysdale's career was cut short by shoulder problems.



Could they have made it with a fastball that was 3-5 mph slower?

Nolan Ryan was one of the hardest throwers ever and he DID NOT make the Inverted W.






If a kid naturally throws hard using the inverted W, we coaches should absolutely, 100% not change a kids arm action to lose velocity in the misguided attempt to make it safer for them. There is no hard data supporting such a position. It's a classic example of bad coaching being much worse than no coaching at all.

There is certainly no evidence suggesting that the Inverted W is a good idea. It's clearly not necessary to throwing either well or hard.

Also, you DO NOT see the Inverted W in the arm action of guys whose careers were longer than 20 years.

[Chris O'Leary]

I really wish Chris would read this line but I seriously doubt it will sink in with him. Oh well I guess comparing still pictures and lack of even playing baseball, or throwing a ball for that matter, will change his tune. :sorry:

Please explain why you don't see the Inverted W in the arm action of guys who had careers of 20 or more years.

Also, please explain why you don't see the Inverted W in the arm action of Nolan Ryan, Roger Clemens, or Randy Johnson, three of the hardest throwers ever.

You guys need to be a little more critical when it comes to taking advice. When in doubt, compare that advice to what you see in clips of the best pitchers in the world.

For example, there's no Inverted W whatsoever in this clip of Randy Johnson.



Randy Johnson's arm action in this clip is very similar to Greg Maddux's.

[Chris O'Leary]

Nice sentiment, but it sure isn't reflected in the MLB draft. A guy who throws 93-94 can become an instant multi-millionaire as a first round pick, while a guy throwing 88-89 might not get drafted. Those last few MPH can make the difference between a kid playing pro ball or pumping gas at the local station. Maybe MLB shouldn't feel that way, but draft after draft after draft shows that's exactly how they feel and act. If a kid naturally throws hard using the inverted W, we coaches should absolutely, 100% not change a kids arm action to lose velocity in the misguided attempt to make it safer for them. There is no hard data supporting such a position. It's a classic example of bad coaching being much worse than no coaching at all.

The history of baseball is littered with the stories of guys who were able to throw the ^%@$ out of the ball but who were not successful due to a lack of control.

Just because some teams haven't learned that lesson doesn't make it a moot point.

[JJA]

First, why would you advocate the Inverted W when you don't see it in the mechanics of guys like...

- Greg Maddux
- Nolan Ryan
- Roger Clemens
- David Wells

Second, Don Drysdale's career was cut short by shoulder problems.


Don Drysdale actually pitched more innings (3432) in his 14 year major league career than David Wells has (3362) in his 21 year career. To argue that his career was "cut short" is ridiculous. How many more innings would he need before his career was long enough to qualify as not being "cut short"? Drysdale actually pitched more than 300 innings 4 consecutive years, whereas Wells has never pitched more than 230 innings in a year. 300 innings a year is for 4 consecutive years is more durable than any guy out there today.


Also, you DO NOT see the Inverted W in the arm action of guys whose careers were longer than 20 years.

Nice try, but Blyleven pitched for 22 years in the big leagues with an inverted W.

Finally, no one is saying that you can't throw hard with other arm actions. But there are lots of injuries for guys with other arm actions as well (Jason Schmidt of my Dodgers is now done for the year with a torn labrum and he did NOT have an inverted W). Since Jason Schmidt tore his labrum should I now change the arm actions of kids who look like Jason Schmidt?

Coaches, we have the responsibility for teaching the kids under our care. We should never teach them anything unless we absolutely sure we're right. They're trusting us with their baseball career. To change a child's arm action when there is no hard evidence that it helps them is irresponsible in my opinion. If you're not sure, don't change anything. Once again, this is a classic example of bad coaching being worse than no coaching at all.

-JJA

[Jake Patterson]

Coaches, we have the responsibility for teaching the kids under our care. We should never teach them anything unless we absolutely sure we're right. They're trusting us with their baseball career. ... and their safety.

To change a child's arm action when there is no hard evidence that it helps them is irresponsible in my opinion.
Agree, so we have to search for the evidence... but which expert or bodies of experts do we follow? (Rhetorical)

If you're not sure, don't change anything. Once again, this is a classic example of bad coaching being worse than no coaching at all.
I asked this before and would like your opinion. Given the above, asuming we are starting from scratch, do you suggest we teach the inverted W to young pitchers?

[JJA]

Jake,

I'll answer your question. Personally, I wouldn't teach the inverted W not because I think there is anything wrong with it, but frankly I don't think I'm qualified to do it. If a kid is a natural slinger, I don't try to change him to the inverted W because as Chris and Nyman and many others have pointed out, there are gobs of natural slingers. But if a kid is a natural inverted W, I wouldn't want to change that either. Within those types of arm actions, I do try to work with the kids to improve their throwing, but I absolutely do not try to change the natural arm action.

You're right, of course we're intrusted with the safety of the kids we coach. But by changing their natural arm action to something else, how do we know we're not endangering their safety? That's the problem. Without any hard data - and given the great variability of the human anatomy this data may never be forthcoming - we're rolling the dice. I prefer not to experiment on the kids I coach.

-JJA

[Chris O'Leary]

Nice try, but Blyleven pitched for 22 years in the big leagues with an inverted W.

Do you have a clip or photo of Blyleven that shows him making the Inverted W?

I haven't found one.

I have found this one, which shows the Horizontal W, which I am fine with.



He also looks good in this photo...



At first glance, the photo below looks like the Inverted W until you realize that he's leaning forward, which puts his PAS elbow at or just below the level of his shoulders...



The same thing goes for the other images available through gettyimages.com

[Mark H]

Video. .

[Stealth]

Here is a picture I took last weekend of Reyes;

[Chris O'Leary]

Here is a picture I took last weekend of Reyes;



Ick.

Anthony Reyes is an example of an accident waiting to happen.

[randy]

...and doesn't every kid dream of being where he is. Who knows if he has always pitched that way-but if some well-meaning coach had changed him back in the day, he might not have gotten past LL.
My point is this-to both the pitching and hitting gurus-looking at mlb players and telling an 8 or 10 yo kid to do what they do is ridiculous. I don't have an mlb player, I have a KID hE CAN'T DO WHAT PUJOLS OR ANY OTHER MLB"ER DOES!!! Within certain parameters of proper tchnique, yes.
Sorry, not gonna copy Ichiro or Sheffield or Dontrelle-they're failures, b/c they don't do what every other mlb'er does....sorry.
They made it to the big-time, and if they fail there, well, then they are stiill in the top .ooo1 %-Dizzy Dean, Warren Spahn, Christy mathewson, Cy young-wonder if they fit the "mold"....just food for thought.

[tom.guerry]

randy -

The kinesiological terms are not rocket science.

There IS such a thing as "good mechanics" which means shared essentials of positioning and sequencing across all good throwers.

For throwng from beginning to end it can't be much more simply stated than Hodge does:

-get side ways to target

-break hands with elbows up and palms down

-(perhaps add lift and pinch as stride foot goes forward/lead with heel/"stepover" here after Nyman and traditional keep fingers on top/show ball to center field)

-when the throwing hand comes up, the front thigh turns over and the front arm stays closed (important to understand things in slightly more kinesiological detail as synchd external rotation of back arm and front leg and ongoing internal rotation of glove arm). Elbows get back to but not past 90 degrees of flexion here if they were extendd more and stay up as much as possible, but will come down some as result of these other actions

-keep the weight back until the shoulders start to turn forward

-land on a firmly flexed lead leg

- stay on top, pronate throught release (another simple kinesiological term), "stay on top" (some other important feel cues are good), pure underspin.

The Blyleven picture shows the complicated sounding position where the weight has come forward and the shoulders have started turning forward.

The throwing hand has started up slightl by external rotation of the back arm.

the lead leg has turned open from synched external rotation (this is how good upper/lower body/coil/load timing is set).

the front arm is fully internally rotated. Not a typical association with this is the fully flexed/droopy wrist look. Try that yourself and you will see it goes a long with retaining full internal rotation of the lead arm which is necessary to not "fly open"/degrade load/unload/twist untwist of body.

Look for/encourage hip c-o-c-k.

spinrite is a good way to see spin

throwmax prevents over flexion at back elbow

nerf football with tail is good way to keep track of how handbreak and loading proceed.

Look at video and see how similar they are at the blyleven position

[Chris O'Leary]

...and doesn't every kid dream of being where he is. Who knows if he has always pitched that way-but if some well-meaning coach had changed him back in the day, he might not have gotten past LL.
My point is this-to both the pitching and hitting gurus-looking at mlb players and telling an 8 or 10 yo kid to do what they do is ridiculous. I don't have an mlb player, I have a KID hE CAN'T DO WHAT PUJOLS OR ANY OTHER MLB"ER DOES!!! Within certain parameters of proper tchnique, yes.
Sorry, not gonna copy Ichiro or Sheffield or Dontrelle-they're failures, b/c they don't do what every other mlb'er does....sorry.
They made it to the big-time, and if they fail there, well, then they are stiill in the top .ooo1 %-Dizzy Dean, Warren Spahn, Christy mathewson, Cy young-wonder if they fit the "mold"....just food for thought.

Of course, you're free to copy any old major leaguer regardless of their level of success.

However, the approach I'm taking is to copy major leaguers who had long, successful careers.

To each his own.

[Chris O'Leary]

There IS such a thing as "good mechanics" which means shared essentials of positioning and sequencing across all god throwers...

-break hands with elbows up and palms down

If this is such a good idea, then why don't Greg Maddux, Randy Johnson, or Juan Marichal do it?

[randy]

I agree with what I understood..I did say within certain parameters: but for some people to come on and look a MLB'er and say "he's doing it all wrong" is just silly.. Just like people wo say teach kids the same swing as mlb hitters is silly-a skinny little 19 yo kid does not have the strength or coordination to do as they do. And by the way, has anyone noticed the strikeout totals of today's hitters vs 40 years ago. Middle infielders striking out 100+ times? I would say it is because of the big uppercut swings you see so many of them finish ith...once again, just food for thought.....

[tom.guerry]

chris-

they do the same sequence regardless of how they exactly orien the "W" or set the arm slot with posture.

put a clip up and you will see they break hands with symmetrical internal rotation/abduction, the synchronize external rotation, they have elbow flex that is not too deep. but provides good leverage to emphsize internal rotation as driver of rapid acceleration, they keep the lead arm internally rotated so they don't fly open,etc.

Style/surface appearance varies across players and pitch types, but fundamental "buggywhip" pattern is VERY consistent.

[Chris O'Leary]

I agree with what I understood..I did say within certain parameters: but for some people to come on and look a MLB'er and say "he's doing it all wrong" is just silly

It's not that they are doing it wrong. It's that they are doing something that isn't compatible with the way the human body works (e.g. its limits).

It's the equivalent of running a car past the red line. It works, but only for a while.



Just like people wo say teach kids the same swing as mlb hitters is silly-a skinny little 19 yo kid does not have the strength or coordination to do as they do. And by the way, has anyone noticed the strikeout totals of today's hitters vs 40 years ago. Middle infielders striking out 100+ times? I would say it is because of the big uppercut swings you see so many of them finish ith...once again, just food for thought.....

I have taught my 7YO son to swing pretty much exactly like Albert Pujols and it's working quite well. He's really smacking the ball. 3 doubles last game.

That swing (the major league swing) works because it maximizes the use of the body.

There's no reason kids can't use that swing.

[Chris O'Leary]

Style/surface appearance varies across players and pitch types, but fundamental "buggywhip" pattern is VERY consistent.

I don't know how you define the buggy whip, but I see very distinct differences in the arm action of Greg Maddux and Randy Johnson vs. Chris Carpenter and BJ Ryan.

[tom.guerry]

chris -

I define buggy whip the way Nyman does.

body/spine/torso is handle of whip which bends back and forth - bow-arch-bow.

arm forms loop that is whipped by the handle.

the connection between the arm and handle is the shoulder complex of which the scapula is an essential part via its ability to clamp on to the thorax via the scapulothoracic "joint" (not a true joint).

Nyman has good model but was unable to figure out the mechanics in enough detail to teach throwing, so he bailed out of this approach to pursue his "form vs function" more "inductive approach (which I think is bogus - wishing to perform a function isn;t going to make it happen without adequate understanding of underlying mechanics).

Hodge has a very good understanding of the arm movement sequence and how this demands lower body synch that then produces an effective/consistent whipping of the arm loop by the handle. Describing the biomechanics in kinesiological terms is a very successful way of establishing a universal underlying model to organize analysis and teaching.

Basically, the arm starts forming a loop, the scap unloads to finish laying back the loop, then the loop whips the hand/ball.

important aspects of the model are the bow -arch-bow and the flatbed (linear weight shift) merrygoround and ferriswheel torso motions which blend in many ways giving the many/unique surface styles seen.

Still the underlying essentials as described by Hodge which apply broadly across most successful practitioners.

Again, post a clip here of a classic pitcher that does not seem to adhere to the "absolutes" and I will tell you what I think I see.

[Go Cardinals]

Ick.

Anthony Reyes is an example of an accident waiting to happen.

I was at that game, Reyes gave up 5 runs in the first inning, and his command ....... sucked!

[Chris O'Leary]

I was at that game, Reyes gave up 5 runs in the first inning, and his command ....... sucked!

IMO this is evidence that his elbow (IOW his UCL) is starting to loosen up.

If he follows Prior's pattern, which I think he will given his nearly identical mechanics, then his elbow will go in the next year or so followed 3 or so years later by his shoulder.

[dannyboy]

From justthefacts’ post #91:

"Not everyone makes it clear as to what their gender is.
…….
It's as simple and/or as complicated as that."

[dannyboy]

from #53:

"randy, I think you and Jake answered your own questions. If you don't know what you are doing, then don't do it."
http://www.hittingillustrated.com/teaser1.wmv

[Jake Patterson]

from #53:

"randy, I think you and Jake answered your own questions. If you don't know what you are doing, then don't do it."

Ray On this we agree.


http://www.hittingillustrated.com/teaser1.wmv
Are you suggesting this guy is helping these two players??

[dannyboy]

don't you know who that is?

[Jake Patterson]

don't you know who that is?


I do now .

[dannyboy]

he says:

"What we're gonna do is ......ah.......
I'm put, I'm puttin'...I want....
The reason I brought you here today, is I want to do some filming for a.....
I'm making up some cd's for some people on hitting, OK? And I wanted you guys to be here so I can show how I work with players."

[Stealth]

I was at that game, Reyes gave up 5 runs in the first inning, and his command ....... sucked!

He looked ok after that first inning..............but yes he did suck in the first!

[THop]

Ray,

Who is it?

THop

[Go Cardinals]

IMO this is evidence that his elbow (IOW his UCL) is starting to loosen up.

If he follows Prior's pattern, which I think he will given his nearly identical mechanics, then his elbow will go in the next year or so followed 3 or so years later by his shoulder.

As a fellow cards fan this is what I think....... TRADE HIM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[AcidLake]

Alright... so what's the conclusion? Is Inverted W stressful or what?

[Go Cardinals]

Alright... so what's the conclusion? Is Inverted W stressful or what?

Yes it is...... it is bad for your arm. I tried it once (very slowly) for fun too see what its like...... and it hurts just trying to do it. Yes it helps you get good seperation etc..... but the same yet better seperation etc.... can be acheived by proper techniques. Trust me, don't do it. It's better to be safe than sorry.
Check out Chris's website

http://www.chrisoleary.com/

[Mark H]

All that thread and here we are. LOL

[Go Cardinals]

All that thread and here we are. LOL

lol, while the gurus argue, the 14 year old answers the question.....lol:D

[Go Cardinals]

IMO this is evidence that his elbow (IOW his UCL) is starting to loosen up.

If he follows Prior's pattern, which I think he will given his nearly identical mechanics, then his elbow will go in the next year or so followed 3 or so years later by his shoulder.

Honestly I think reyes' mechanics are worse than Prior's. He brings his elbows so much higher above his shoulders than Prior, it's amazing how high they are.

[Mark H]

lol, while the gurus argue, the 14 year old answers the question.....lol:D


If you ask me a question about nuclear physics or near light speed spacecraft propulsion I could answer that too.

[Go Cardinals]

lol..... :D :D