Best pitching season ever?

[Blackout]

why not make one of these too

[-Kyle-]

Inning for inning starter I will take Pedro 2000, which is the best pitching season ever imo.

[ChrisLDuncan]

Steve Carlton's 1972 is the best by pWAR.

[geezer]

For me, Randy Johnson's 2002 season and Pedro's 1999 season.

[Aqua]

Admittedly, the game has changed so immensely that it's difficult to compare, but Radbourn pitched 678 innings with a 205 ERA+. In terms of pure statistical value, there's nothing else close to that.

[The Splendid Splinter]

I like Dutch Leonard 1914 season... 22 years old. 225 IP with 279 ERA+

or Silver King at 20 years old in 1888... 586 IP with 199 ERA+ (aqua- i found someone that's close to Radbourn...)

same with Gooden in 1985... 20 years old. 277 IP with 226 ERA+...

[yankeesfan8926]

Al Spalding's 1875.

[LGehrigFan]

Old Hoss in 1884. Unreal.

[DoubleX]

Inning for inning starter I will take Pedro 2000, which is the best pitching season ever imo.

Pedro's season was great, certainly merits being in the argument of best ever, but I wonder what the rate stats of someone like Koufax in '66 or Gibson in '68 if they pitched 100 less innings. Or perhaps Gooden in '85 if he pitched 60 less innings, of even Clemens in '97 if he pitched 50 less innings.

[Blackout]

Pedro's season was great, certainly merits being in the argument of best ever, but I wonder what the rate stats of someone like Koufax in '66 or Gibson in '68 if they pitched 100 less innings. Or perhaps Gooden in '85 if he pitched 60 less innings, of even Clemens in '97 if he pitched 50 less innings.

the year 2000 was one of the highest offensive seasons in the history of baseball keep in mind, and he did it at fenway


and guys pitched alot more innings in the 60's mind you

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Very true blackout. Extremely impressive season. I do think though, that his ERA+ is better than it should be, since pitching talent depth just hasn't been there. In other words, he's certainly the cream of the crop, but the gap between those that understand how to pitch in an offensive environment, and those who don't, is tremendous. Credit him for being one who not only got it, but had the stuff to execute...but still, ERA+ is just comparing to league average, right. And that number would come down had the league not been (and still is) splattered with guys who are either hanging on too long, or who aren't ready for the show.

I'd like to see everybody's top 10 list for righties and lefties.

[rugbyfreak]

I've always been a huge fan of Gibby's '68 season. And don't give me "Year of the Pitcher" stuff. In fact, his ERA+ (which is supposed to adjust for such things) of 258 in a year in which seven MLB starters (five AL, two NL) had ERA's under 2.00 is so extraordinary it defies description. It ranks seventh all-time but--I'm guessing--it would have been an all-time record in a hitter's year (such as 2000, where Pedro's 1.74 set the modern record of 285).

I've said it so many times, but here's what impressed me the most: Forget about the 1.12 ERA, or the 13 shutouts. He completed 28 of 34 starts that year. The other six? Removed for a pinch-hitter each time. Never knocked out of the box all year!

[CTaka]

This isn't really a fair poll because of the differences in conditions, but of the choices available, there's absolutely no question in my mind that it has to be Old Hoss. 205 ERA+ and a WHIP of 0.922 are extremely impressive, although a few on the list had even better numbers. But then you factor in that Old Hoss started AND completed 73 games - yes he started AND completed 65% of all the games played by his team. I'd say that someone pitching with his level of effectiveness in 65% of his team's total games provides far more value than someone with slightly better performance numbers but only pitching in 18-25% of his team's games. Radbourn pitching in that many games just adds far more value to your team than the other choices listed. You could pitch like Superman and it wouldn't help your team at all if you aren't out there playing.

[rugbyfreak]

This isn't really a fair poll because of the differences in conditions, but of the choices available, there's absolutely no question in my mind that it has to be Old Hoss. 205 ERA+ and a WHIP of 0.922 are extremely impressive, although a few on the list had even better numbers. But then you factor in that Old Hoss started AND completed 73 games - yes he started AND completed 65% of all the games played by his team. I'd say that someone pitching with his level of effectiveness in 65% of his team's total games provides far more value than someone with slightly better performance numbers but only pitching in 18-25% of his team's games. Radbourn pitching in that many games just adds far more value to your team than the other choices listed. You could pitch like Superman and it wouldn't help your team at all if you aren't out there playing.

You started to make an excellent point and then, I think, bailed on it. You're right to say that pitching is so much a function of its era. I mean, even by the 1900-1920 era, when baseball began to resemble, somewhat, its modern form, the pitching records from that time are generally not considered comparable, one-for-one. (We do have adjusters now that help.)

But Old Hoss' time? There were so many differences back then--the rules, how they pitched, how the game was played--that enabled Hoss, good as he was, to be that type of workhorse.

So I agree with your original point: Give the man his due, but to even have him on a poll with pitchers who came along 100 years later, would be like comparing times in the Indy 500 from 1911 to today's. Not even worth it.

But we're baseball fans, right? And we love to engage in impossible debates because they keep us going.

[Westlake]

So which one is it for Pedro? Was the pitching bad and therefor his ERA+ is better than it should be, or was the offense just so strong at the time? Or both? Rising so much higher above everyone in your time is a good thing isnt it?

"Pedro's season was great, certainly merits being in the argument of best ever, but I wonder what the rate stats of someone like Koufax in '66 or Gibson in '68 if they pitched 100 less innings. Or perhaps Gooden in '85 if he pitched 60 less innings, of even Clemens in '97 if he pitched 50 less innings."

Why isn't the same said when comparing a Gibson or Koufax season to someone like Cy Young? Why no "Wonder what Young's rate stats would have been if he only have to pitch 300 innings a year?" Very honest question.

[CTaka]

You started to make an excellent point and then, I think, bailed on it. You're right to say that pitching is so much a function of its era. I mean, even by the 1900-1920 era, when baseball began to resemble, somewhat, its modern form, the pitching records from that time are generally not considered comparable, one-for-one. (We do have adjusters now that help.)

But Old Hoss' time? There were so many differences back then--the rules, how they pitched, how the game was played--that enabled Hoss, good as he was, to be that type of workhorse.

So I agree with your original point: Give the man his due, but to even have him on a poll with pitchers who came along 100 years later, would be like comparing times in the Indy 500 from 1911 to today's. Not even worth it.

But we're baseball fans, right? And we love to engage in impossible debates because they keep us going.

The differences in conditions almost make it unfair to include Radbourn's 1884 season, the only 19th century choice listed, with the pitching accomplishments of 20th century pitchers. In terms of the value they provided, there is just no way a 20th century pitcher can compare to the amount of innings pitched in Radbourn's day. If they are included in the same poll, it isn't fair to either side; it isn't fair to the more modern pitchers because the changes in the game don't allow for pitchers to toss 600+ innings in a season. But it also isn't fair to Radbourn or others from his era to just dismiss them because they pitched under different conditions - a practice that I see us baseball fans doing far more often. It is better to keep them on separate polls, but since we baseball fans love to engage in impossible debates, I just don't see any way to vote against Radbourn of the choices given, unless you are just going to ignore him as if he never existed which isn't fair to him.

[Yankee Legend]

I would say Pedro in 99 or 2000 cause this was in the power hitting era and he was just dominant. Plus he pitched in the AL which is better offensively.

[Bill Burgess]

Greatest Pitching Seasons:

I give highest original presumption to ERA+, but do not use only 1 stat. I also look at innings worked, W-L, awards, league leads, etc. This list is in order of sequence according to ERA+.

For convenience, I high-lighted in red the post 1920 seasons for us, for easy reference.


------Name----------yr.---ERA+--Inn.---W-L---ShO--CG-Ratio*-WS*-TPR--PCA

Pedro Martinez-----2000---285---217---18-6----7----4--.617--29--7.3
Greg Maddux--------1995---259---209---19-2---10----3--.609--30--6.2
Walter Johnson-----1913---258---346---36-7---11---29--.667--54--8.0
Bob Gibson---------1968---258---305---22-9---13---28--.771--36--7.0
Mordecai Brown-----1906---253---277---26-6---10---27--.812--35--4.9
Dwight Gooden------1985---226---276---24-4----8---16--.791--33--7.0
Grover Alexander---1915---224---376---31-10--12---36--.757--43--7.0
Christy Mathewson--1909---223---275---25-6----8---26--.735--34--5.8
Lefty Grove--------1931---218---289---31-4----4---27--.787--42--6.3
Cy Young-----------1901---217---371---33-10---5---38--.768--41--5.7
Ron Guidry---------1978---208---273---25-3----9---16--.759--31--5.7
Addie Joss---------1908---205---325---24-11---9---29--.741--35--5.0
Jack Taylor--------1902---203---324---22-11--10---33--.830--32--5.1
Dean Chance--------1964---199---278---20-9---11---15--.825--32--4.6
Spud Chandler------1943---197---253---20-4----5---20--.810--29--5.0
Hal Newhouser------1945---194---313---25-9----8---29--.864--36--6.6
Mort Cooper--------1942---193---279---22-7---10---22--.811--29--5.0
Carl Hubbell-------1933---193---309---23-12--10---22--.820--33--5.1
Tom Seaver---------1971---193---286---20-10---4---21--.795--32--5.7
Randy Johnson------2002---190---260---24-5----8----4--.827--29--6.3
Ed Walsh-----------1910---189---369---18-20---7---33--.733--36--5.8
Warren Spahn-------1953---187---266---23-7----5---24--.805--31--5.3
Lefty Gomez--------1934---185---281---26-5----6---25--.803--31--4.3
Luis Tiant---------1968---185---258---21-0----9---19--.779--28--3.6
Vida Blue----------1971---183---312---24-8----8---24--.787--30--4.8
Jack Coombs--------1910---182---353---31-9---13---35--.886--37--4.2
Steve Carlton------1972---182---346---27-10---8---30--.817--40--6.8
Rube Waddell-------1905---180---328---26-11---7---27--.882--35--5.7
Orvie Overall------1909---179---285---20-11---9---23--.845--30--4.5
Joe Wood-----------1912---178---344---34-5---10---35--.816--44--6.9
Joe McGinnity------1904---178---408---35-8----9---38--.836--42--4.3
Dazzy Vance--------1924---176---309---28-6----3---30--.798--36--6.0
Dizzy Dean---------1934---170---324---30-7----3---29--.867--37--5.3
Stan Coveleski-----1917---167---298---19-14---9---24--.820--29--2.4
Roger Clemens------1986---166---254---24-4----1---10--.762--29--4.9
Ed Walsh-----------1908---163---464---40-15--11---42--.789--47--8.1
Jack Chesbro-------1904---158---454---41-12---6---48--.854--53--4.6
Denny McLain-------1968---157---336---31-6----6---28--.812--33--4.4
Sandy Koufax-------1965---156---335---26-8----8---27--.728--33--4.8
Dave McNally-------1968---154---273---22-10---5---18--.782--26--3.2
Orel Hershiser-----1988---148---267---23-8----8---15--.865--25--3.7
Bob Feller---------1946---145---371---26-15--10---36--.887--32--4.7
George Uhle--------1926---143---318---27-11---3---32--.934--32--3.9
Robin Roberts------1952---141---330---28-7----3---30--.814--32--3.7
Urban Shocker------1922---140---348---24-17---2---29--.873--29--3.7
Don Newcombe-------1956---130---268---27-7----5---18--.793--27--3.1
Nolan Ryan---------1972---120---284---19-16---9---20--.948--24--2.0
Whitey Ford--------1961---117---283---25-4----3---11--.882--22--0.9


*ratio = Relative Onbase Ave.; Opponent's Onbase Ave / L. onbase ave.
WS = Bill James' Win Shares
TPR = Total Baseball's Total Player Rating
-------------------------------------------------
I like to share this chart for these type of poll. There are so many pitching seasons I like, I think it might be more interesting to see one's top 5.

[BigStellyPADRES4LIFE]

Gotta be Walter Johnson, first of those stats are absolutely unreal.... and unlike alot of guys on the list... he did it for a sucky team.

People dont realize when you play for a team that doesnt do as well, you arent going to do as well.

[philipthegreat]

Jack Chresbo's 41 win season. though he lost the pennant for the highlanders he won 27% of the entire seasons games though the highlanders didn't win 154 games he won an even greater percantage of the teams wins. can somebody find how many wins the highlanders won in 1904?

[2Chance]

In 1904 (http://baseball-almanac.com/yearly/yr1904a.shtml), the Highlanders went 92-59 (.609) to finish in 2nd place, 1.5 games behind the Boston Americans.

[Blackout]

i could've included the top seasons by Chesbro, Koufax, Gooden and Clemens

even MAthewson got left off

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Greatest Pitching Seasons:

I give highest original presumption to ERA+, but do not use only 1 stat. I also look at innings worked, W-L, awards, league leads, etc. This list is in order of sequence according to ERA+.

For convenience, I high-lighted in red the post 1920 seasons for us, for easy reference.


------Name----------yr.---ERA+--Inn.---W-L---ShO--CG-Ratio*-WS*-TPR--PCA

Pedro Martinez-----2000---285---217---18-6----7----4--.617--29--7.3
Greg Maddux--------1995---259---209---19-2---10----3--.609--30--6.2
Walter Johnson-----1913---258---346---36-7---11---29--.667--54--8.0
Bob Gibson---------1968---258---305---22-9---13---28--.771--36--7.0
Mordecai Brown-----1906---253---277---26-6---10---27--.812--35--4.9
Dwight Gooden------1985---226---276---24-4----8---16--.791--33--7.0
Grover Alexander---1915---224---376---31-10--12---36--.757--43--7.0
Christy Mathewson--1909---223---275---25-6----8---26--.735--34--5.8
Lefty Grove--------1931---218---289---31-4----4---27--.787--42--6.3
Cy Young-----------1901---217---371---33-10---5---38--.768--41--5.7
Ron Guidry---------1978---208---273---25-3----9---16--.759--31--5.7
Addie Joss---------1908---205---325---24-11---9---29--.741--35--5.0
Jack Taylor--------1902---203---324---22-11--10---33--.830--32--5.1
Dean Chance--------1964---199---278---20-9---11---15--.825--32--4.6
Spud Chandler------1943---197---253---20-4----5---20--.810--29--5.0
Hal Newhouser------1945---194---313---25-9----8---29--.864--36--6.6
Mort Cooper--------1942---193---279---22-7---10---22--.811--29--5.0
Carl Hubbell-------1933---193---309---23-12--10---22--.820--33--5.1
Tom Seaver---------1971---193---286---20-10---4---21--.795--32--5.7
Randy Johnson------2002---190---260---24-5----8----4--.827--29--6.3
Ed Walsh-----------1910---189---369---18-20---7---33--.733--36--5.8
Warren Spahn-------1953---187---266---23-7----5---24--.805--31--5.3
Lefty Gomez--------1934---185---281---26-5----6---25--.803--31--4.3
Luis Tiant---------1968---185---258---21-0----9---19--.779--28--3.6
Vida Blue----------1971---183---312---24-8----8---24--.787--30--4.8
Jack Coombs--------1910---182---353---31-9---13---35--.886--37--4.2
Steve Carlton------1972---182---346---27-10---8---30--.817--40--6.8
Rube Waddell-------1905---180---328---26-11---7---27--.882--35--5.7
Orvie Overall------1909---179---285---20-11---9---23--.845--30--4.5
Joe Wood-----------1912---178---344---34-5---10---35--.816--44--6.9
Joe McGinnity------1904---178---408---35-8----9---38--.836--42--4.3
Dazzy Vance--------1924---176---309---28-6----3---30--.798--36--6.0
Dizzy Dean---------1934---170---324---30-7----3---29--.867--37--5.3
Stan Coveleski-----1917---167---298---19-14---9---24--.820--29--2.4
Roger Clemens------1986---166---254---24-4----1---10--.762--29--4.9
Ed Walsh-----------1908---163---464---40-15--11---42--.789--47--8.1
Jack Chesbro-------1904---158---454---41-12---6---48--.854--53--4.6
Denny McLain-------1968---157---336---31-6----6---28--.812--33--4.4
Sandy Koufax-------1965---156---335---26-8----8---27--.728--33--4.8
Dave McNally-------1968---154---273---22-10---5---18--.782--26--3.2
Orel Hershiser-----1988---148---267---23-8----8---15--.865--25--3.7
Bob Feller---------1946---145---371---26-15--10---36--.887--32--4.7
George Uhle--------1926---143---318---27-11---3---32--.934--32--3.9
Robin Roberts------1952---141---330---28-7----3---30--.814--32--3.7
Urban Shocker------1922---140---348---24-17---2---29--.873--29--3.7
Don Newcombe-------1956---130---268---27-7----5---18--.793--27--3.1
Nolan Ryan---------1972---120---284---19-16---9---20--.948--24--2.0
Whitey Ford--------1961---117---283---25-4----3---11--.882--22--0.9


*ratio = Relative Onbase Ave.; Opponent's Onbase Ave / L. onbase ave.
WS = Bill James' Win Shares
TPR = Total Baseball's Total Player Rating
-------------------------------------------------
I like to share this chart for these type of poll. There are so many pitching seasons I like, I think it might be more interesting to see one's top 5.

I'm not gonna argue that his '16 belongs among the handful of greatest pitching seasons ever, but on any list of strictly lefties, Ruth would belong somewhere. During that season, he had a higher ERA+ than eleven of those pitchers on your list, more innings than twenty three of those pitchers on your list, wins are overrated, but he had more wins than fourteen of those pitchers on your list, more shutouts than twenty eight of those pitchers on your list. I think its high time you consider Ruth's 1916 for your list there. Just one man's opinion.