Obstruction, Poor Coaching, Questionable Play?

[aklum]

Had a sutation come in a an 11U tournament game where a first baseman was holding runner on by straddling the bag and before receiving throw would kneel down placing his lower leg in front of the entire bag (as well as his body). The runner had no path to get back to the bag. I don't think there are are any rules to prevent this but by same token no rules that says a runner couldn't run through the first baseman (or worse, slide back spikes first) to get to the bag. I don't think we want to teach our kids to play this way and noone wants a child to be hurt (runner or fielder).

Are there rules to allow the baserunner a path back to the bag or does anyone have any suggestions for dealing with this? At a minimum, I blame the coach for allowing his player to position himself in this way. I'm sure he realizes that he's going to get a lot of kids thrown out at first by having the first baseman block the bag, but as a parent can't believe he'd constantly put one of his players at risk in this way.


Thanks

Kevin

[jbooth]

Had a sutation come in a an 11U tournament game where a first baseman was holding runner on by straddling the bag and before receiving throw would kneel down placing his lower leg in front of the entire bag (as well as his body). The runner had no path to get back to the bag. I don't think there are are any rules to prevent this but by same token no rules that says a runner couldn't run through the first baseman (or worse, slide back spikes first) to get to the bag. I don't think we want to teach our kids to play this way and noone wants a child to be hurt (runner or fielder).

Are there rules to allow the baserunner a path back to the bag or does anyone have any suggestions for dealing with this? At a minimum, I blame the coach for allowing his player to position himself in this way. I'm sure he realizes that he's going to get a lot of kids thrown out at first by having the first baseman block the bag, but as a parent can't believe he'd constantly put one of his players at risk in this way.


Thanks

Kevin

This was done a few years back in the College World Series, and umps let the F3 get away with it. It is NOT, legal. The intent of the rule is that the fielder must setup OUTSIDE the runner's path, and MAY (umpire judgment) move INTO the path, if it is a necessary act (umpire judgment) in order to glove the ball. The fielder may NOT put his leg down and block the path for no reason other than to block the path. It must be judged as an act necessary to block or glove the throw.

The fielder may setup in the path, and he may put his leg down before the ball arrives, BUT in that case, the ball better enter his glove before the runner gets blocked, otherwise, it is obstruction.

The umpire must judge whether or not, the fielder moved into the path to catch the ball. Separate, discontinuous acts, designed solely for the purpose of blocking the base, before the ball arrives, IS obstruction.

Here is a link to a section of my website, that has photos and explanations;

http://baseball-rules.com/obstruction_photos.htm

The RULE is OBSTRUCTION

OBSTRUCTION is the act of a fielder who, while not in possession of the ball and not in the act of fielding the ball, impedes the progress of any runner.
Rule 2.00 (Obstruction) Comment: If a fielder is about to receive a thrown ball and if the ball is in flight directly toward and near enough to the fielder so he must occupy his position to receive the ball he may be considered “in the act of fielding a ball.” It is entirely up to the judgment of the umpire as to whether a fielder is in the act of fielding a ball. After a fielder has made an attempt to field a ball and missed, he can no longer be in the “act of fielding” the ball. For example: If an infielder dives at a ground ball and the ball passes him and he continues to lie on the ground and delays the progress of the runner, he very likely has obstructed the runner.


The controversy comes from the apparant inability of amateur umps, to understand what "in the act of fielding" is. You don't become "in the act of fielding" just because the ball is thrown to you. "In the act of fielding" is a judgment by the umpire as to whether your actions were necessary to field the ball, or not.

In your game, the umps are judging that he is "in the act of fielding" simply because the ball is in-flight to him. That is NOT the correct judgment. MLB firstbaseman, setup out of the path, and they never drop their leg into the path if the throw doesn't require them to do it. If they did, the MLB ump would call obstruction. You can't block the path unless you have the ball, OR your necessary movements to glove the ball, make you do it.

[aklum]

Mr. Booth,

Thank you. This is the clear, succinct explanation I was hoping for. In the event this comes up again (and I hope it doesn't), I'll be prepared to discuss this with the other coach and umpire in a matter of fact and rules based way.

Best regards,
Kevin

[Ursa Major]

I see this sort of idiocy in 11U ball once in awhile, and the coach of the offending team usually responds with something like, "Hey, show me in the rules where he can't do that!" The temptation is to respond, "Show me where baseball is supposed to be played where you set up players for injury." Even worse is when you see umpires without the common sense to stop play and insist that the defender play it right. That's got to be the first rule of youth umpiring: protect kids from adult stupidity.

There's a further temptation to tell your runners to go back into the base standing up and touching the corner of the base closest to the pitcher, but with their backs to the pitcher to make sure that, if they're hit by the ball, it's not a particularly vulnerable spot. If the pitcher throws the ball at all to the second base side of the bag, chances are the first baseman can't reach it and the ball flies into foul territory. But, that's putting your runner at a bit more risk .... but then, come to think of it, if the first baseman doesn't play in front of the bag, the runner is at risk anyway.

[jbooth]

I see this sort of idiocy in 11U ball once in awhile, and the coach of the offending team usually responds with something like, "Hey, show me in the rules where he can't do that!" The temptation is to respond, "Show me where baseball is supposed to be played where you set up players for injury." Even worse is when you see umpires without the common sense to stop play and insist that the defender play it right. That's got to be the first rule of youth umpiring: protect kids from adult stupidity.

There's a further temptation to tell your runners to go back into the base standing up and touching the corner of the base closest to the pitcher, but with their backs to the pitcher to make sure that, if they're hit by the ball, it's not a particularly vulnerable spot. If the pitcher throws the ball at all to the second base side of the bag, chances are the first baseman can't reach it and the ball flies into foul territory. But, that's putting your runner at a bit more risk .... but then, come to think of it, if the first baseman doesn't play in front of the bag, the runner is at risk anyway.

It boils down to the inability of many people to comprehend this ONE sentence of the rule;

If a fielder is about to receive a thrown ball and if the ball is in flight directly toward and near enough to the fielder so he must occupy his position to receive the ball he may be considered “in the act of fielding a ball.”

Why do they erroneously judge that deliberately dropping the leg for no good reason, satisfies the phrase; "so he must occupy his position ". Why MUST he have a position with his leg down, before the ball arrives? Why MUST he be in the path before he knows where the throw will go?

So, when they say, "Show me in the rules." Simply show them rule 2.00 Obstruction. Dropping your leg before the throw arrives is NOT, "in the act of fielding" it is "in the act of obstructing."

When they continue to argue, I point out the phrase, "It is entirely up to the judgment of the umpire as to whether a fielder is in the act of fielding a ball. And, in MY judgment, he WAS NOT, "in the act of fielding." End of discussion coach.

The problem is; that phrase works against me when I'm the coach, because he will say in HIS judgment, that IS "in the act of fielding." So, I tell him his judgment sucks and he is an idiot, and he ejects me. :)

[digglahhh]

That's got to be the first rule of youth umpiring: protect kids from adult stupidity.


Ain't that the truth!

[bluezebra]

Had a sutation come in a an 11U tournament game where a first baseman was holding runner on by straddling the bag and before receiving throw would kneel down placing his lower leg in front of the entire bag (as well as his body). The runner had no path to get back to the bag. I don't think there are are any rules to prevent this but by same token no rules that says a runner couldn't run through the first baseman (or worse, slide back spikes first) to get to the bag. I don't think we want to teach our kids to play this way and noone wants a child to be hurt (runner or fielder).

Are there rules to allow the baserunner a path back to the bag or does anyone have any suggestions for dealing with this? At a minimum, I blame the coach for allowing his player to position himself in this way. I'm sure he realizes that he's going to get a lot of kids thrown out at first by having the first baseman block the bag, but as a parent can't believe he'd constantly put one of his players at risk in this way.


Thanks

Kevin


I don't think there are are any rules to prevent this but by same token no rules that says a runner couldn't run through the first baseman (or worse, slide back spikes first) to get to the bag.

Can you say, MALICIOUS CONTACT? Spikes in 11U?

Bob

[hiddengem]

Have the baserunner "accidentally" trip and put his forearm right on the 1st baseman's chin and see if he blocks the bag next time. Stupid Tournament ball...Don't get me started again.:mad:

[Ursa Major]

The problem is that, in a technical reading of the rule, the only normal penalty imposed is to give the runner the bag he was heading for: first base. Big whoopdee doo! Is there some discretion to award the runner second base? I can't see it.

I suppose you as the umpire can tell the first baseman (and his manager): "Guess what? You might as well tell your pitcher not to throw over because, if he ever catches a runner napping, I'm going to rule obstruction and give the runner the base anyway. So, all you're doing is risking making a throw down the right field line that will allow the runner to go to third base."

And HG, I think you're right about the tournament ball issue -- it brings out the stupid in coaches. We had a small 11U tournament this weekend and a mediocre team managed to slip into the finals when the better team decided to save it's best pitchers for the final game and changed strategies too late. Our guys just had a field day, winning 20 - 6. When we got up by 12 or so, one of our smarter players turned to his teammates and announced, "Okay, guys, we're playing station-to-station, now." An assistant coach who just gets nuts at tournaments (his regular season team is very weak, so he doesn't get much chance to run up the score) chastised the kid, and instead implored the kids to "keep your petal to the metals". The other coaches straightened him out.

[mike28nc]

This is never called!
I know most people do not like travel ball. AAU here in NC in the past has fielded many complaints about catchers. Two teams was getting away with blocking the plate. UMPS wouldn't do anything to stop it. Here is one example. Kid on 2nd ball hit to fence (9u) 220'. Runner from 2nd going home see's the catcher and slides. But the ball is not at the cut off. He slides catcher 3' up the line blocks the plate and catches the ball after the slide and he is tagged out. Catcher is a hoss. Nothing much could have moved him. No mater what complaints nothing was done. If you tried to run around him he would block you off until he got the ball. The coach of that kid would laugh. That was wrong and one day.......he will get a wake up!!


My son is slow but big. I tell him this and it so far has worked. If the catcher has one leg on each side of the line (3rd base line) and doesnt have the ball. Go in front of him. If he is where he should be. Go behind him. If he is on the plate pick a leg and go thru it. Sounds harsh but catch is out of position. I have seen kids fake tag to get the kids to slide into them so they can keep them from scoring.

Mike


The RULE is OBSTRUCTION

OBSTRUCTION is the act of a fielder who, while not in possession of the ball and not in the act of fielding the ball, impedes the progress of any runner.
Rule 2.00 (Obstruction) Comment: If a fielder is about to receive a thrown ball and if the ball is in flight directly toward and near enough to the fielder so he must occupy his position to receive the ball he may be considered “in the act of fielding a ball.” It is entirely up to the judgment of the umpire as to whether a fielder is in the act of fielding a ball. After a fielder has made an attempt to field a ball and missed, he can no longer be in the “act of fielding” the ball. For example: If an infielder dives at a ground ball and the ball passes him and he continues to lie on the ground and delays the progress of the runner, he very likely has obstructed the runner.


The controversy comes from the apparant inability of amateur umps, to understand what "in the act of fielding" is. You don't become "in the act of fielding" just because the ball is thrown to you. "In the act of fielding" is a judgment by the umpire as to whether your actions were necessary to field the ball, or not.

In your game, the umps are judging that he is "in the act of fielding" simply because the ball is in-flight to him. That is NOT the correct judgment. MLB firstbaseman, setup out of the path, and they never drop their leg into the path if the throw doesn't require them to do it. If they did, the MLB ump would call obstruction. You can't block the path unless you have the ball, OR your necessary movements to glove the ball, make you do it.

[jbooth]

The problem is that, in a technical reading of the rule, the only normal penalty imposed is to give the runner the bag he was heading for: first base. Big whoopdee doo! Is there some discretion to award the runner second base? I can't see it.

That's not correct. 7.06a covers a pick off play. A pick off attempt is "A play is being made on the obstructed runner." He automatically gets second base.

7.06
When obstruction occurs, the umpire shall call or signal "Obstruction."
If a play is being made on the obstructed runner, or if the batter-runner is obstructed before he touches first base, the ball is dead and all runners shall advance, without liability to be put out, to the bases they would have reached, in the umpire’s judgment, if there had been no obstruction. The obstructed runner shall be awarded at least one base beyond the base he had last legally touched before the obstruction. Any preceding runners, forced to advance by the award of bases as the penalty for obstruction, shall advance without liability to be put out.


The last legally touched base, is first, so he is awarded second.

7.06b covers obstruction when the ball is not in-flight to retire a runner. In THAT situation, the ump decides what base to award. Nullifying the obstruction. But, on obstruction with a play, the ball is dead and the runner gets the NEXT base.

I suppose you as the umpire can tell the first baseman (and his manager): "Guess what? You might as well tell your pitcher not to throw over because, if he ever catches a runner napping, I'm going to rule obstruction and give the runner the base anyway. So, all you're doing is risking making a throw down the right field line that will allow the runner to go to third base."

He gets at LEAST one base and could be awarded more. The ump could give him home, although that would be pretty wierd.

[tominct]

call me old school, but if after I drew attention of this to the umpire and if he did nothing about it, I would have the kid slide back feet first!

[bluezebra]

Have the baserunner "accidentally" trip and put his forearm right on the 1st baseman's chin and see if he blocks the bag next time. Stupid Tournament ball...Don't get me started again.:mad:

So you would tell an 11-year-old to deliver a forearm blow to another boys' face. You're a real "sportsman". Unfortunately, I can't tell you what I really feel about your ignorant statement.

I hope you don't work with youth, in ANY capacity.

Bob

[hawkiirock]

why is that any "dirtier" than teaching the 1b to blcok the bag?So you would tell an 11-year-old to deliver a forearm blow to another boys' face. You're a real "sportsman". Unfortunately, I can't tell you what I really feel about your ignorant statement.

I hope you don't work with youth, in ANY capacity.

Bob