How often to do long toss?

[slugger33]

My baseball season just got over and I want to increase my arm strength for next season. How often should I be doing long toss? And how far should the throws be? Thanks.

[Mark H]

Google Jaeger long toss.

[Centerfielder2]

well im a freshman in highschool n during our season for varsity we threw three times a week at 135
and then if we had no games itd be 150
now that summer ball is going on its less but during the offseason i try to do it three times a week


but it depends on ur postion i play outfield

if ur a pitch or catcher or inflieder its differnet

[Baseball gLove]

My son's high school team long tosses before each game. They have won their conference in all three divisions this year: Varsity, JV and Freshman. As far as distance they go as far as they can. My son has gone over 320 feet on his tosses.

[Baseball gLove]

well im a freshman in highschool n during our season for varsity we threw three times a week at 135
and then if we had no games itd be 150
now that summer ball is going on its less but during the offseason i try to do it three times a week


but it depends on ur postion i play outfield

if ur a pitch or catcher or inflieder its differnet

135 feet a long toss? Shortstops have to make longer throws from the hole behind third base.

[Centerfielder2]

235**

mybad

[Centerfielder2]

n 250


sorry about that

[Baseball gLove]

235**

mybad

LOL No problem

[Go Cardinals]

how far is a good throw for high school?

[Baseball gLove]

how far is a good throw for high school?

300 feet or more.

[Go Cardinals]

so if you can throw from 300-330 as an 8th grader, you should be fine?

[Baseball gLove]

so if you can throw from 300-330 as an 8th grader, you should be fine?

Yes. It also means that you are currently capable of throwing 80 mph.

[Go Cardinals]

Yes. It also means that you are currently capable of throwing 80 mph.

sweet! i've never been clocked before

[slugger33]

so if you can throw from 300-330 as an 8th grader, you should be fine?
If you think you can throw 300 feet, please post a video.

[Go Cardinals]

If you think you can throw 300 feet, please post a video.

i was playing long toss on a lacrosse that is 330ft from line to the other goal which is 295 ft. i made it once on 1 hop, but the next 4 times i threw it, it was on 1 hop, then my arm got tired. oh, and the throw were online. and, i would if i knew how to put videos from a digital camera online.

[Baseball gLove]

sweet! i've never been clocked before

You do need proper & practice mechanics to get there. Notice I used the word "Capable."

[Go Cardinals]

You do need proper & practice mechanics to get there. Notice I used the word "Capable."

never mind i see what you meen. well that is with a crow hop and everything. but, i crow hopped behind the line.

[Baseball gLove]

If you think you can throw 300 feet, please post a video.

Why? You think it serves him to not tell the truth? I believe him and he doesn't have to prove anything.

[Go Cardinals]

Why? You think it serves him to not tell the truth? I believe him and he doesn't have to prove anything.

thank you, i hate it when people don't believe what you say. you don't know how much i appreciate that, tymv

[Go Cardinals]

see honestly when i decided to try to throw that far, i hd no clue that i was going to be able to. i have a question, what muscles should you work out to throw farther?

[Baseball gLove]

never mind i see what you meen. well that is with a crow hop and everything. but, i crow hopped behind the line.

I mean you have the arm strength, but you need to connect the mechanics with that strength. I had a kid on my team that was powerful and was able to throw the ball 330-350 feet, but could not put the mechanics together to pitch. My son had more velocity and accuracy because of his practiced mechanics.

[Go Cardinals]

so what are the proper mechanics

[kylebee]

so what are the proper mechanics

Everyone has their own ideas what proper mechanics are. Chris O'Leary has interesting theories - search for his posts and check them out.

[Baseball gLove]

thank you, i hate it when people don't believe what you say. you don't know how much i appreciate that, tymv

A lot of people did not believe me when I said that a lot of high schoolers in my area could throw in the 90's. Google Mike Moustakas, Matt Dominguez & Trent Jones. They all attend the same school, throw in the 90's with Moustakas touching 97 mph. Barring injury & Scott Boras' Greed, Moustakas will be a millionaire by the end of summer. Casey Fry who attends the same school is a junior that throws in the low 90's as well.

[Baseball gLove]

see honestly when i decided to try to throw that far, i hd no clue that i was going to be able to. i have a question, what muscles should you work out to throw farther?

I would try to go to Alan Jaeger's camp. I think he has a video, but I don't think you get the same feel as going in person. When I took my son at the end of December, there were players from all over the country including pitchers from D-1 schools.

[Baseball gLove]

so what are the proper mechanics

An excellent pitching coach is invaluable in getting those mechanics where they need to be. My son has been fortunate in having excellent coaches, that also happen to swear by Jaeger's long toss.

[Go Cardinals]

I would try to go to Alan Jaeger's camp. I think he has a video, but I don't think you get the same feel as going in person. When I took my son at the end of December, there were players from all over the country including pitchers from D-1 schools.

who is this alan guy? and where can i find him....

[Baseball gLove]

who is this alan guy? and where can i find him....

I don't think we can post links

Google Jaeger long toss.

[Go Cardinals]

thank you...

[J-MAC]

has anyone see that video where vlady throught from home plate to deep in the seats in left filed before a game? i was amazed

[Baseball gLove]

has anyone see that video where vlady throught from home plate to deep in the seats in left filed before a game? i was amazed

Over 100 times and counting.

[adamsowell]

Yes. It also means that you are currently capable of throwing 80 mph.

So 300 feet means you are capable of throwing 80mph

Anyone know how many feet you would throw to say you were capable of throwing 90mph?

[Go Cardinals]

I would try to go to Alan Jaeger's camp. I think he has a video, but I don't think you get the same feel as going in person. When I took my son at the end of December, there were players from all over the country including pitchers from D-1 schools.

yeah thanks, many people have suggested that camp, i am looking into it. tyvm.

[slugger33]

i was playing long toss on a lacrosse that is 330ft from line to the other goal which is 295 ft. i made it once on 1 hop, but the next 4 times i threw it, it was on 1 hop, then my arm got tired. oh, and the throw were online. and, i would if i knew how to put videos from a digital camera online.
I'm not trying to come off as rude, but I doubt you can throw 300 feet on a line. You would have pitching speed around 90 mph. My grandma can throw 300 feet, but it won't be on a line.

[Go Cardinals]

I'm not trying to come off as rude, but I doubt you can throw 300 feet on a line. You would have pitching speed around 90 mph. My grandma can throw 300 feet, but it won't be on a line.

actually, it meens that you can throw 80mph assuming you have correct technique.

[AcidLake]

Alright, it means if you can throw long toss strong, it means you can throw on the mound strong. This doesn't make any sense since good mechanics is about using the whole body and arm is for good release point/control.

If that's the formula for more velocity, then why wouldn't pitchers like Glavine or Moyer work on more long toss for more velocity??

[GoingPRO]

doing long toss with a soft ball is really god for your arm. as long as you do it the right way.

[Baseball gLove]

Alright, it means if you can throw long toss strong, it means you can throw on the mound strong. This doesn't make any sense since good mechanics is about using the whole body and arm is for good release point/control.

If that's the formula for more velocity, then why wouldn't pitchers like Glavine or Moyer work on more long toss for more velocity??

There is a cap on how hard any one individual can throw. They, Glavine and Moyer, are also on the downside of their careers. My son's cap could be 85 mph or 95 mph, until that happens who knows. Long toss just helps one to reach that peak. Glavine's old pitching coach Leo Mazzone is also a strong proponent of long toss.

[Baseball gLove]

I'm not trying to come off as rude, but I doubt you can throw 300 feet on a line. You would have pitching speed around 90 mph. My grandma can throw 300 feet, but it won't be on a line.

No one said they threw 300 feet on a line. The clip of Vladdy throwing the ball is not thrown on a line. I doubt your grandma could throw 300 feet or even 127 feet.

[Baseball gLove]

doing long toss with a soft ball is really god for your arm. as long as you do it the right way.


Not if you are trying to throw baseballs faster.

[XFactor]

So how does it exactly allow one to achieve their maximum potential velocity?

[Baseball gLove]

So how does it exactly allow one to achieve their maximum potential velocity?

Don't call Mills.

[jima]

BLove, I met Vatcher when he was visiting the east coast. Impressive baseball guy. We've been using the band workout ever since. Do you long toss with your son daily? Our winters here prohibit long toss year round. jima

[XFactor]

I'm not calling Mills

I would call Rushall and science though.

Don't tell me you're in the same boat as that new muesuem that shows dinosaurs on Noah's Ark

[Baseball gLove]

I'm not calling Mills

I would call Rushall and science though.

Don't tell me you're in the same boat as that new muesuem that shows dinosaurs on Noah's Ark



Dr. Brent Rushall is a Sports Psychologist and a dietitian.

Psychologist: psy·chol·o·gy
Pronunciation: -jE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -gies
Etymology: New Latin psychologia, from psych- + -logia -logy
1 : the science of mind and behavior
2 a : the mental or behavioral characteristics of an individual or group b : the study of mind and behavior in relation to a particular field of knowledge or activity
3 : a theory or system of psychology <Freudian psychology> <the psychology of Jung>

I don't see a degree in physiology, anatomy, biomechanical engineering, nor is he an orthopedist, nor a doctor of sports medicine.

I would refer high level atheletes to him if they had self confidence issues.

[AcidLake]

...he's also professor of exercise

More of his resume. If you did research about him, I don't see why you'd state that he's only psychologist and nutrition :noidea
http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/dept/coachsci/rushall/index.html

Don't call Mills.
Seems like you didn't have any valid answer...

[jima]

Acid, what's your point? Did this Rushall say that long toss wasn't beneficial for baseball players? X, I already know that you will say that long toss is a waste of time because the "Rebel" says its so. jima

[AcidLake]

Acid, what's your point? Did this Rushall say that long toss wasn't beneficial for baseball players?

Maybe he did. But I have to see 'The Science Of Pitching' by Mills and Rushall (which I don't have right now). It supposedly includes scientific 'proofs' in the book. And I know some people would go defensive if something they believe is not right

EDIT: Instead of bringing out Dr. Rushall's excerpt, here's an article from a Korean book written by Il-Sung Ha (a famous Korean baseball expert, youth baseball teacher/coach and broadcaster) and what he has to say about long toss. I translated it

"With the opinion that states 'improving shoulder strength with long toss', there are some pitchers who thoroughly practice long toss in basis, but instead of throwing down to the plate on mound, throwing up or (on the level) on the flat ground actually has no assist by the gravity, therefore producing the stress on shoulder and elbow. It can also distract the pitching motion and increase the risk of injury"
-Il-Sung Ha. "Baseball Power Book". April 2004. Samho Media (publishing group). Page 17

If anyone's suspicious, I'll take a picture of the page that I found the article on

[jima]

Maybe he did. But I have to see 'The Science Of Pitching' by Mills and Rushall (which I don't have right now). It supposedly includes scientific 'proofs' in the book. And I know some people would go defensive if something they believe is not right

EDIT: Instead of bringing out Dr. Rushall's excerpt, here's an article from a Korean book written by Il-Sung Ha (a famous Korean baseball expert, youth baseball teacher/coach and broadcaster) and what he has to say about long toss. I translated it

"With the opinion that states 'improving shoulder strength with long toss', there are some pitchers who thoroughly practice long toss in basis, but instead of throwing down to the plate on mound, throwing up or (on the level) on the flat ground actually has no assist by the gravity, therefore producing the stress on shoulder and elbow. It can also distract the pitching motion and increase the risk of injury"
-Il-Sung Ha. "Baseball Power Book". April 2004. Samho Media (publishing group). Page 17

If anyone's suspicious, I'll take a picture of the page that I found the article on

AcidLake, I'm not sure that I'll buy into Sung Ha's theories. Who has he coached that's in the majors?;) It would be interesting to find out whether there have been studies on the effect of long toss on mph. Anyone know of one? jima

[AcidLake]

AcidLake, I'm not sure that I'll buy into Sung Ha's theories. Who has he coached that's in the majors?;)
Is Major League everything? No. There are more than MLB in baseball world right now. F.E.: Last year's WBC. No offense to Americans (I love USA), but failing to make semifinals even with the umpires behind was... not good. Il-Sung himself is really committed to growing baseball prospects in Korea and it seems to work :thumbsup:

It would be interesting to find out whether there have been studies on the effect of long toss on mph. Anyone know of one?
It supposedly builds arm strength. But think logically, if pitching is about arm strength, EVERY pitchers who throws really hard would have big arms ala Gabe Kapler. Giambi have good amount of muscle on his arm but he's one of terrible throwers in baseball. If you take a look at any classic hard-throwers
arm (Koufax, Gibson, Feller, your choice) their arm look like high-schooler's compared to the ones that have good amount of muscles.

One benefit of long toss is that if you do alot of long toss... you'll get better at long toss. But for pitchers, it'd be more benefitive if they pitch on the mound and work on mechanics. How would long toss help mechanics?

Oh, and I've seen the testimonials of Jaegar sports, and funny thing is that long toss supposdly improves pitching arm's health while it doesn't work for Mark Rogers (shoulder surgery last year) and Randy Wolf (injury prone). I never did long toss since March and it seems like I have no trouble practicing my mechanics with only 1 or 2 days of rest for 4 weeks in a row

[Baseball gLove]

...he's also professor of exercise

More of his resume. If you did research about him, I don't see why you'd state that he's only psychologist and nutrition :noidea
http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/dept/coachsci/rushall/index.html


Seems like you didn't have any valid answer...


Sorry for the delay, I have been at a few high school playoff games. In today's game there were 4 players that throw over 90 MPH. Of those four, 2 players will be 1st round draft picks and a 3rd will go in the top 5 rounds.

Seems you are the one without a valid answer. Except for a book published with Dick Mills, Rushnall has no other work or experience with High School, College, or MLB Pitchers or any higher level baseball team. His experience is primarily with swimming. He has no scholarly reviewed work regarding pitching or baseball. He does have experience as team psychologist for swimming, rugby and rowing.

[Baseball gLove]

Is Major League everything? No. There are more than MLB in baseball world right now. F.E.: Last year's WBC. No offense to Americans (I love USA), but failing to make semifinals even with the umpires behind was... not good. Il-Sung himself is really committed to growing baseball prospects in Korea and it seems to work :thumbsup:


It supposedly builds arm strength. But think logically, if pitching is about arm strength, EVERY pitchers who throws really hard would have big arms ala Gabe Kapler. Giambi have good amount of muscle on his arm but he's one of terrible throwers in baseball. If you take a look at any classic hard-throwers
arm (Koufax, Gibson, Feller, your choice) their arm look like high-schooler's compared to the ones that have good amount of muscles.

One benefit of long toss is that if you do alot of long toss... you'll get better at long toss. But for pitchers, it'd be more benefitive if they pitch on the mound and work on mechanics. How would long toss help mechanics?

Oh, and I've seen the testimonials of Jaegar sports, and funny thing is that long toss supposdly improves pitching arm's health while it doesn't work for Mark Rogers (shoulder surgery last year) and Randy Wolf (injury prone). I never did long toss since March and it seems like I have no trouble practicing my mechanics with only 1 or 2 days of rest for 4 weeks in a row


Mark Rogers was prevented by his team from throwing more than 120 feet; they also played with his mechanics. He had complained to Jaeger about it prior to getting hurt. Randy Wolf, a local boy, used long toss to recover from his injury as did Matt Whisenant who had injured his shoulder with the under "120 foot max throwing distance" limit imposed by his team.

[MarinersFan51]

real men long toss every day

[PJ-34]

Haha, nice.

[AcidLake]

real men long toss every day

Then hard throwers prior to long toss would be all girls then...

His experience is primarily with swimming
Okay, so? Swimming and pitching have their similarities using the body's big muscles to promote forward momentum, therefore producing velocities. Some people might bawl that swimming is a strength activity, then there's world's fastest swimmer, Michael Phelps. This is a passage from NY Times magazine 8/4/2004 article:

In testing conducted by physiologists from USA Swimming, Phelps scored as one of the weakest elite swimmers they had ever measured, but that was on such traditional test as the bench press and how much weight he can lift with his legs

What does Michael Phelps's swimming coach Bob Bowman use for a training philosophy for the world's best swimmer?

"His philosophy is simple: there is no substitute for being in the water. Not running, or weight lifting and certainly not resting." Which is exactly a Mills philosophy

[jima]

Is Major League everything? No. There are more than MLB in baseball world right now. F.E.: Last year's WBC. No offense to Americans (I love USA), but failing to make semifinals even with the umpires behind was... not good. Il-Sung himself is really committed to growing baseball prospects in Korea and it seems to work :thumbsup:


It supposedly builds arm strength. But think logically, if pitching is about arm strength, EVERY pitchers who throws really hard would have big arms ala Gabe Kapler. Giambi have good amount of muscle on his arm but he's one of terrible throwers in baseball. If you take a look at any classic hard-throwers
arm (Koufax, Gibson, Feller, your choice) their arm look like high-schooler's compared to the ones that have good amount of muscles.

One benefit of long toss is that if you do alot of long toss... you'll get better at long toss. But for pitchers, it'd be more benefitive if they pitch on the mound and work on mechanics. How would long toss help mechanics?

Oh, and I've seen the testimonials of Jaegar sports, and funny thing is that long toss supposdly improves pitching arm's health while it doesn't work for Mark Rogers (shoulder surgery last year) and Randy Wolf (injury prone). I never did long toss since March and it seems like I have no trouble practicing my mechanics with only 1 or 2 days of rest for 4 weeks in a row

AL - my reference to MLB wasn't meant to be a nationalistic jab...it was meant to be funny because everyone on this site will ask purported pitching gurus who their students are (just ask the Marshall supporters)...listen, you must be aware that virtually every elite athlete cross trains in some manner in order to help themselves perform. The stronger your core and legs the better able you will be to support the specific movements of the arm. Anything that can help the core rotation while throwing will support speeding up the arm and the whipping motion needed to throw fast. No one is suggesting that long toss, by itself, is all a pitcher needs to do to fufill potential anymore than just pitching bullpens ala Mills. Dismissing long toss and interval training is just a Mills tactic to carve out a difference between him an other teachers...alas, the "rebel". jima

[AcidLake]

The stronger your core and legs the better able you will be to support the specific movements of the arm. Anything that can help the core rotation while throwing will support speeding up the arm and the whipping motion needed to throw fast.
I'm aware of it, yes. In fact, core exercises/leg excercises that promotes muscle explosiveness is found in Mills conditioning program. But is long toss part of the solution for it?

. No one is suggesting that long toss, by itself, is all a pitcher needs to do to fufill potential anymore than just pitching bullpens ala Mills. Dismissing long toss and interval training is just a Mills tactic to carve out a difference between him an other teachers...alas, the "rebel". jima
First of all, Mills doesn't dismiss interval trainings. In fact, his wife is a strength coach who promotes interval trainings except for those heavy liftings. But you should understand that you can get reverse result by doing long toss

[Baseball gLove]

I'm aware of it, yes. In fact, core exercises/leg excercises that promotes muscle explosiveness is found in Mills conditioning program. But is long toss part of the solution for it?


First of all, Mills doesn't dismiss interval trainings. In fact, his wife is a strength coach who promotes interval trainings except for those heavy liftings. But you should understand that you can get reverse result by doing long toss

Anecdotal evidence proves otherwise. I have already provided it and I'm not going to rehash it because you chose to ignore it.

[AcidLake]

Anecdotal evidence proves otherwise. I have already provided it and I'm not going to rehash it because you chose to ignore it.
Where? I'd appreciate it if you can provide where you wrote it

[hawkiirock]

you are completely overlooking the importance of muscle insertion points wrt strength. Is Major League everything? No. There are more than MLB in baseball world right now. F.E.: Last year's WBC. No offense to Americans (I love USA), but failing to make semifinals even with the umpires behind was... not good. Il-Sung himself is really committed to growing baseball prospects in Korea and it seems to work :thumbsup:


It supposedly builds arm strength. But think logically, if pitching is about arm strength, EVERY pitchers who throws really hard would have big arms ala Gabe Kapler. Giambi have good amount of muscle on his arm but he's one of terrible throwers in baseball. If you take a look at any classic hard-throwers
arm (Koufax, Gibson, Feller, your choice) their arm look like high-schooler's compared to the ones that have good amount of muscles.

One benefit of long toss is that if you do alot of long toss... you'll get better at long toss. But for pitchers, it'd be more benefitive if they pitch on the mound and work on mechanics. How would long toss help mechanics?

Oh, and I've seen the testimonials of Jaegar sports, and funny thing is that long toss supposdly improves pitching arm's health while it doesn't work for Mark Rogers (shoulder surgery last year) and Randy Wolf (injury prone). I never did long toss since March and it seems like I have no trouble practicing my mechanics with only 1 or 2 days of rest for 4 weeks in a row

[AcidLake]

you are completely overlooking the importance of muscle insertion points wrt strength.

You meant the arm muscle?

[Baseball gLove]

Then hard throwers prior to long toss would be all girls then...


Okay, so? Swimming and pitching have their similarities using the body's big muscles to promote forward momentum, therefore producing velocities. Some people might bawl that swimming is a strength activity, then there's world's fastest swimmer, Michael Phelps. This is a passage from NY Times magazine 8/4/2004 article:



What does Michael Phelps's swimming coach Bob Bowman use for a training philosophy for the world's best swimmer?

"His philosophy is simple: there is no substitute for being in the water. Not running, or weight lifting and certainly not resting." Which is exactly a Mills philosophy


Swimming and pitching are very different. Long toss and pitching are very similar because it involves throwing a round object, that weighs approximately 5 ounces. I'm not going to hire a swim coach to teach my son how to pitch. It's my understanding that the incidence of shoulder injuries is higher in swimmers than pitchers. Source is from a orthopedic site that specializes in sports injuries including the shoulder and elbow.

[AcidLake]

Swimming and pitching are very different.
I never said anything about similarities on swimming physical actions and pithcing actions. I agree on swimming very different than pitching in terms of arm actions (swimming is not the best activity for pitchers to do), but what to understand is using body's muscle to increasing forward momentum. It is very important since a lot of pitchers in past (and Tim Lincecum) know how to use their large muscles of their body (hip adductor is one) to increase forward momentum, which lets the loose arm go fast.

Oh yes, and the training philosophy on doing nothing but practicing for goal also remains the same since pitching is skills activity like swimming or golf. Growth and development will progress too.

Long toss and pitching are very similar because it involves throwing a round object, that weighs approximately 5 ounces.
Yes, but as Mr. Il-Sung Ha stated, long toss involves different release point rather than throwing downhill but throwing at the flat ground without a support of gravity stresses the elbow and shoulder. Seems like I've been saying this forever

[Baseball gLove]

I never said anything about similarities on swimming physical actions and pithcing actions. I agree on swimming very different than pitching in terms of arm actions (swimming is not the best activity for pitchers to do), but what to understand is using body's muscle to increasing forward momentum. It is very important since a lot of pitchers in past (and Tim Lincecum) know how to use their large muscles of their body (hip adductor is one) to increase forward momentum, which lets the loose arm go fast.

Oh yes, and the training philosophy on doing nothing but practicing for goal also remains the same since pitching is skills activity like swimming or golf. Growth and development will progress too.


Yes, but as Mr. Il-Sung Ha stated, long toss involves different release point rather than throwing downhill but throwing at the flat ground without a support of gravity stresses the elbow and shoulder. Seems like I've been saying this forever


Part of the Long Toss routine designed by Jaeger includes adjusting the release point which can and is adapted for pitching. When throwing long toss, emphasis is placed on using the legs, hips, torso, shoulders and arms to throw the ball. When you use the whole body to throw, as opposed to just using the arm, there is less wear on the arm. A side benefit to this long toss rhythm being incorporated into the pitching motion was a major improvement to saleability of the change-up. By the way, there are a lot of games that are played with little or no mound.

Leo Mazzone is know as one of the best pitching coaches in baseball and he says Long Toss is important.