What is "Tipping"

[adamsowell]

I'm alittle confused as to some of the hitting terms that were used quite often in the "3 Swings (Slow Motion) Review" post.

Can anyone explain to me what exactly Tipping is?

is that like a Hitch in your swing? or is it something else? is the elbow being tipped or it is the bat?

[callyjr]

Watch the bat as these guys go into their load. It tips towards the pitcher or even more to the opposite base. It gives the bat a running start and allows the hitter to have bat speed with the option to pull up at not swing at any time. If your not tipping you have to commit and swing. It also allows the bat if done correctly to get behind the head and arc around the bosy instead of having the barrel coming from the shoulder sown to the body, putting yourself in a top/hand bottem hand position before the barrel even turns the corner.

http://callyjr.hittingillustrated.com/RHoward7.gif

http://callyjr.hittingillustrated.com/Arod92007.gif



http://callyjr.hittingillustrated.com/APujols7.gif

[adamsowell]

CallyJr,

thanks for the explaination, i think i understand now.

Who would you say "tips" the most?
-
Barry Bonds and Gary Sheffield?

Do you know any power hitters that do not tip?

[jbooth]

I'm alittle confused as to some of the hitting terms that were used quite often in the "3 Swings (Slow Motion) Review" post.

Can anyone explain to me what exactly Tipping is?

is that like a Hitch in your swing? or is it something else? is the elbow being tipped or it is the bat?

MLB hitters don't think about the bathead, other than to think that they want to do almost nothing with it, until they throw it at the ball, LATE in the swing process.

They think about their HANDS, a LOT. Where they are, the angle they are at, how to get them started, what path to move them along.

They do NOT put high amounts of force to the bathead at the start of the swing. They essentially set/load the hands and handle where they want, as they get ready to swing, and that causes a little moving around (tipping) of the bathead, but they aren't putting a lot of force into it to accelerate it at the ball. The feeling is kind of like getting the bat angle and hands set, and then yanking the knob out from underneath the bathead, without doing anything to the bathead. The bathead follows the movement of the knob, which is powered by body rotation and hand path.

I've asked 8 different former pro players, 5 MLB, if they conciously think about the bathead, or applying force early, to get it going, and they all emphatically said, "NO". I asked them if they spoke to, or knew anybody who torqued on the handle to get the bathead moving early, and they said, "NO."

As for you, and your swing, you need to work on getting your hands set right, and the bathead in a good position and then just swing pretty much as you are now. Because your bathead is so flat, you have to apply force to move it. The goal that MLB players have, is to make the bathead feel light, and move the handle, not the head. The handle is light, the head is heavy. If you apply force to the handle, the laws of physics will make the bathead catch up. When you get really good, you can add some force just before contact, to help the bathead move, but it doesn't happen early.

[adamsowell]

MLB hitters don't think about the bathead, other than to think that they want to do almost nothing with it, until they throw it at the ball, LATE in the swing process.

They think about their HANDS, a LOT. Where they are, the angle they are at, how to get them started, what path to move them along.

They do NOT put high amounts of force to the bathead at the start of the swing. They essentially set/load the hands and handle where they want, as they get ready to swing, and that causes a little moving around (tipping) of the bathead, but they aren't putting a lot of force into it to accelerate it at the ball. The feeling is kind of like getting the bat angle and hands set, and then yanking the knob out from underneath the bathead, without doing anything to the bathead. The bathead follows the movement of the knob, which is powered by body rotation and hand path.


Wow, thats some good stuff, I like it!

[callyjr]

Most all the power hitters do it, Manny, Barry, Vlady, Sheffield do it a lot, but so did Ruth, Aaron, Williams.

http://callyjr.hittingillustrated.com/AAron1.gif

http://callyjr.hittingillustrated.com/barryted.gif

[jbooth]

Most all the power hitters do it, Manny, Barry, Vlady, Sheffield do it a lot, but so did Ruth, Aaron, Williams.

http://callyjr.hittingillustrated.com/AAron1.gif

http://callyjr.hittingillustrated.com/barryted.gif

Yes, their batheads move around, but it isn't from applying a lot of force from the hands/wrists. As their hands and arms move into different positions to set the knob where they want to launch it from; the bathead moves.

Ted Williams said he held the bat vertical to make it feel light. He then cocked his hands, let the bathead essentially fall back to a flat position, as he changed his elbow positions (front up, back down), and then used his hips and hands to move the knob around at the ball.

When you move the knob the barrel moves, but that doesn't mean the barrel is being torqued from a position between the hands.

When Bonds and Williams load their hands, the bat tips away from them. Then when they change elbow angles the bat tips behind them. The force is coming from the arms changing the knob angle, not from a wrist torque. Once the bat starts to flatten, they start the hips, then they pull the knob with body rotation and arm force.

Ted said that the dropping of the back elbow and the lifting of the front, set the bathead on plane. He never said that he torqued it with the hands to get it flat. In fact, he said to do nothing with the wrists except at contact, to throw the top hand into the ball. Bonds says he throws the bathead to "catch" the ball, I've never heard him say he torques the bathead early to get it going at the ball. He doesn't throw the bathead until after body rotation.

Aaron is the only one who says he used his wrists a lot. But, you can tell by how long his bathead stays back, that the wrist force is late and a means to snap the head into the ball after the body rotation gets the whole bat moving.

[tom.guerry]

I think VIRTUALLY ALL good mlb hitters go thorugh the same loading sequence beginning with as Williams described it, cocking the hips and cocking the hands.

"tipping" is what the bat does when you cock the hands.

Maximum tip is immediately prior to beginning to coil/rotate into toe touch when you start to uncock or untip the bat by torquing the handle, hands STAYING "cocked".

The sequence I almost ALWAYS see in good mlb hitters is:

rhythmic preswing activity - bat circles or goes back and forth

inward turn/hip cock - "tipping starts"

handock/carry - tipping maxes out, rear elbow reaches peak/front sole shows

rotate into toe touch/coil/windrubberband - synched external rotation of back arm and lead leg - handle torques, back elbow starts down to slot, front knee begines to flare open.bat "arcs"/ starts to drop toward developing swing plane/starts accelerating back toward catcher

etc

[callyjr]

Tom,

Could you take a look at my student at hittingillustrated.com, its the tip and rip thread. Let me know your thoughts please.

Cally

[BoardMember]

Bonds says he throws the bathead to "catch" the ball, I've never heard him say he torques the bathead early to get it going at the ball. He doesn't throw the bathead until after body rotation.


Jim, your obviously not on the same "first name basis" with Bonds that Richard and Tom are.

Funny how we all see/feel different things.

Tom/Richard insist on handle torque to start the bat head. This to them explains the circular bat path backward towards the catcher at launch. This would insinuate a purposeful movement of the bat head into the backward path. Not optimal IMO. Although I think handle torque does exist to some extent, I feel it's in the lag to contact phase. I don't believe you can do it "twice" in the same swing.

You have a "new" explaination that I really liked that says the hands "jerk the knob out from under the bat head". This to me would describe a much flatter forward movement of the bat path. More optimal IMO for a shorter quicker path, with "torso tilt" taking care of the "toward the catcher" bat path we see. You also seem to be on my page that the top does provide a little extra kick into contact in a higher level swing.

Yet others say that you set the hands, turn the hips and rest takes care of itself. This gives me the picture of dead-hands hitting with little available adjustability and slicing outside locations.

I've pretty much been on the middle page(paragraph) for a long time with a few adjustments along the way.

2 Very Good posts IMO Jim........

[deaconspoint]

MLB hitters don't think about the bathead, other than to think that they want to do almost nothing with it, until they throw it at the ball, LATE in the swing process.

They think about their HANDS, a LOT. Where they are, the angle they are at, how to get them started, what path to move them along.

They do NOT put high amounts of force to the bathead at the start of the swing. They essentially set/load the hands and handle where they want, as they get ready to swing, and that causes a little moving around (tipping) of the bathead, but they aren't putting a lot of force into it to accelerate it at the ball. The feeling is kind of like getting the bat angle and hands set, and then yanking the knob out from underneath the bathead, without doing anything to the bathead. The bathead follows the movement of the knob, which is powered by body rotation and hand path.

I've asked 8 different former pro players, 5 MLB, if they conciously think about the bathead, or applying force early, to get it going, and they all emphatically said, "NO". I asked them if they spoke to, or knew anybody who torqued on the handle to get the bathead moving early, and they said, "NO."

As for you, and your swing, you need to work on getting your hands set right, and the bathead in a good position and then just swing pretty much as you are now. Because your bathead is so flat, you have to apply force to move it. The goal that MLB players have, is to make the bathead feel light, and move the handle, not the head. The handle is light, the head is heavy. If you apply force to the handle, the laws of physics will make the bathead catch up. When you get really good, you can add some force just before contact, to help the bathead move, but it doesn't happen early.

Thank you for this and your further explanation jbooth. Very helpful stuff here. Great description of what takes place and why.

Tim

[BoardMember]

The feeling is kind of like getting the bat angle and hands set, and then yanking the knob out from underneath the bathead, without doing anything to the bathead. The bathead follows the movement of the knob, which is powered by body rotation and hand path.

That's pretty much what I see here:
http://callyjr.hittingillustrated.com/RHoward7.gif


Ted said.............do nothing with the wrists except at contact, to throw the top hand into the ball. Bonds says he throws the bathead to "catch" the ball,.......

That's pretty much what I see here:
http://callyjr.hittingillustrated.com/Arod92007.gif

And here:
http://callyjr.hittingillustrated.com/APujols7.gif

Again, very good posts Jim..........

P.S. I played with Jerry........Well, more like Jerry played for me......

[jbooth]

I think VIRTUALLY ALL good mlb hitters go thorugh the same loading sequence beginning with as Williams described it, cocking the hips and cocking the hands.

Yes, with varying styles and methods.

"tipping" is what the bat does when you cock the hands.

Yep, I agree.

Maximum tip is immediately prior to beginning to coil/rotate into toe touch

Probably right.

when you start to uncock or untip the bat by torquing the handle, hands STAYING "cocked".

There is no torque applied to the handle, if you mean that pressure is applied in opposite directions to each side of the point between the hands. Rather, the hands stay cocked and the knob/hand unit change position, which in turn, changes the bathead position. This can be done without torquing. The change in elbow positions (particularly the back elbow) causes the bathead to untip and flatten and the rotation makes it move toward the catcher, WITHOUT hand torque.

[adamsowell]

As for you, and your swing, you need to work on getting your hands set right, and the bathead in a good position and then just swing pretty much as you are now. Because your bathead is so flat, you have to apply force to move it. The goal that MLB players have, is to make the bathead feel light, and move the handle, not the head. The handle is light, the head is heavy. If you apply force to the handle, the laws of physics will make the bathead catch up. When you get really good, you can add some force just before contact, to help the bathead move, but it doesn't happen early.

What you've said in this post makes more sense to me than anything I have heard in the past. I have a game today, actually in like 6 hours or so, i'm going to apply this in BP before the game and hopefully I can use this during the actual game and film it. I'll post the swings and we'll see how it helps me.

thanks again!

[opie]

Tom,

Could you take a look at my student at hittingillustrated.com, its the tip and rip thread. Let me know your thoughts please.

Cally

whoever wrote that front page article is high :crazy . the belt line is not horizontal

[BoardMember]

I don't know if he's high, be he seems pretty desperate sometimes......

whoever wrote that front page article is high :crazy . the belt line is not horizontal

[Stealth]

Question;

Whats happening to the bat and hands/forearms when you go from a relaxed grip while getting ready in your stance to a firm grip right at launch?

[callyjr]

whoever wrote that front page article is high :crazy . the belt line is not horizontal


I guess I should have PM's him, not trying to advertise for anyone, just value Tom's opinion and wanted his take.

Cally

[callyjr]

I think there is more to the tipping in the early parts of the swing. the hands seem to come back early in the load, but the hands coming back does not tip the bat towards the pitcher. I have been playing with this with a student and in order to get the bat to tip like these guys are doing we are having to push the knob back more then just bringing the hands back. From there I agree with Jim that your just ripping the knob up with the front elbow and letting the barrel benefit from this.

This student was thru the normal part of what the Epstein program would teach, We decided to plaly with the tip and rip part, looking at a dozen different pros and going back and forth trying different things. Once we got to the end of the hour I honestly feel he was getting an extra frame of batspeed from tipping it. the upper body seems to help the lower body. Here is his clip for review, this is not a finished product but I like it so far.

http://callyjr.hittingillustrated.com/Nick%20day%202%20tip%20and%20rip.mov


BM,mark, any of you guyd feel free and be honest, good? bad?

[BoardMember]

CJ, very nice. Excellent lower and upper body sequence. I'd only be worried about one thing. I think it's too much counter rotation to get that amount of tip. I'd be worried about bringing the big heavy stick back around that far. The whip stick he's using is a little easier to move.

Might try a little more top hand cock instead of bottom hand push. I've found that this much bottom hand push to achieve that amount of tip tends to cause too much counter rotation, instead of just a little down-and-in load with a nice tip of the top hand.

Cab is a big strong dude and he doesn't get quite so turned.
This is MAX Load in both cases(IE next frame is elbow drop):

http://i12.tinypic.com/6b1es8o.jpg

I'd love to see a swing against live pitching coming in at 80 with the big stick.
Might reveal some issues you can't see with the whip stick.

Really, overall, great swing.......

I think there is more to the tipping in the early parts of the swing. the hands seem to come back early in the load, but the hands coming back does not tip the bat towards the pitcher. I have been playing with this with a student and in order to get the bat to tip like these guys are doing we are having to push the knob back more then just bringing the hands back. From there I agree with Jim that your just ripping the knob up with the front elbow and letting the barrel benefit from this.

This student was thru the normal part of what the Epstein program would teach, We decided to plaly with the tip and rip part, looking at a dozen different pros and going back and forth trying different things. Once we got to the end of the hour I honestly feel he was getting an extra frame of batspeed from tipping it. the upper body seems to help the lower body. Here is his clip for review, this is not a finished product but I like it so far.

http://callyjr.hittingillustrated.com/Nick%20day%202%20tip%20and%20rip.mov


BM,mark, any of you guyd feel free and be honest, good? bad?

[hiddengem]

Kinda been on a homer streak here lately. Here are a couple from the last 2 days. Not sure if I was tipping or torquing but I sure as heck wasn't thinking about it. The two things I am thinking about is staying square to the plate and getting my back elbow in the slot so I can release the bathead correctly into the ball.

This one was a fastball probably belt high and away that I hit out to the opposite field.
http://xs215.xs.to/xs215/07216/HR2vsOmaha.gif (http://xs.to)

This was from tonight. A 2-2 fastball where I was in a two strike approach. Hit it out on a line to left center.
http://xs215.xs.to/xs215/07216/HRvsIowa.gif (http://xs.to)

[Erik]

HiddenGem,
King Kong can't hold you down you beast. What model is that bat you're using? I want 50 of them shipped next day.:rofl: :rofl: Is that Mike Sweeney lower half loading I see?




EL,

[hiddengem]

HiddenGem,
King Kong can't hold you down you beast. What model is that bat you're using? I want 50 of them shipped next day.:rofl: :rofl: Is that Mike Sweeney lower half loading I see?




EL,


R161 35-35:rofl:

[Erik]

Hiddengem,
I new this bat had to be a little light. I use dthose but I had to shave the handle some. Brady Anderson used that model also. I think he used a 36-36 and still was early. :shhh: Keep swinging!!



EL,

[Kevin G]

There is no torque applied to the handle, if you mean that pressure is applied in opposite directions to each side of the point between the hands. Rather, the hands stay cocked and the knob/hand unit change position, which in turn, changes the bathead position. This can be done without torquing. The change in elbow positions (particularly the back elbow) causes the bathead to untip and flatten and the rotation makes it move toward the catcher, WITHOUT hand torque.

Good posts JB on the subject.

In my opinion there can be no torqueing action as described above until later in the swing. Any torque of this kind will cause the head to be pushed outward early which would give up bat lag too soon.

In golf we call this "club head throw away". Releasing, or worse yet, somehow applying muscular thrust/effort to throw the clubhead to catch up to the hands.

In my opinion the good player won't even be feeling the "tip" as it is athletic, and sets the table for him to be able to drop the back elbow quickly as the rotation begins without casting the bathead outward.

Again just my $.02

[tom.guerry]

Jim said:
"Rather, the hands stay cocked and the knob/hand unit change position, which in turn, changes the bathead position. This can be done without torquing."

Maybe it can be, but then you are not implementing the mechanics that are used by mlb hitters to be successful.

Feel is different for everyone, maybe it feels like torque between the hands, maybe it doen't.

Epstein doesn't emphasize it, but believes in it.

Mankin makes a good case and his golf club demo shows that it works to quicken the swing by being applied EARLY where not a lot of force can have a big effect on the trajectory.

What you feel resembling flipping the wrists later at contact is the same largely reactive force that is set up earlier as in golf. You don't fix a slice by manipulating your hands. You fix your swing plane. More inside out, more flip thorugh contact (like outside low in hitting). More slicing/over the top hitting around/not staying inside ball/clubhead crossing target line before contact/etc. and you compensate mainly automatically by a "block with less flip".

In hitting you don't want much flip (don't have to close clubface/so tend to avoid wrist roll/prefer more flat hands/aDduction) and get more extension/top hand involved (Mankin - "more tht") with more extension where torso turns less and handpath radius is longer to get sweetspot on ball.

Nyman also unwittingly proved that TORQUE was the prime factor in quickening the swing. This put him in a bind which he tried to wiggle out of by saying:

1 - it is better thought of as "back arm inertia", and

2- it could not be consciously or actively applied.

Whatever the name, it's the same thing whereby torquing force is applied early to the swing to enable early batspeed and late adjustability.

You can see it in the early ARC in Hiddengem's homer clip.

If you pull the bat knob and drag the bat or use any other mechanical force early without torque, this early arc will be foreshortened.

IN hitting unlike golf there is torque and there is shoulder tilt for adjustment and they are both applied before bathead "launch".

For Nyman simulations note that increased mass of back arm means more torque applied to handle by 'merrygoround effect" which quickens swing/sucks/transfers momentum out of torso more quickly. His setup only measures 2D forces once the shoulders turn. This does not rule out active arm action out of plane prior to shoulder action to produce the same torquing force before as well as during shoulder turn as an essential trajectory control factor.

see:

http://www.setpro.com/stuff/rotational_simulation5.wmv

and

http://www.setpro.com/stuff/rotational_simulation6.wmv

[Kevin G]

Mankin makes a good case and his golf club demo shows that it works to quicken the swing by being applied EARLY where not a lot of force can have a big effect on the trajectory.

I can no longer stand by and not comment on bad golf comparisons/analysis.

If you mean a pivot point between the hands early in the golf swing, you are wrong, wrong ...wrong.

"it works to quicken the swing"????

Maybe a horse**** swing, for a corrupted before and after demo, but NOT a quality swing. Period... Jeeze

[BoardMember]

Excuse me Tom, but sim6 specifically shows that the initiation of handle torque at the begining of the swing is sub-optimal. "Really screws things up" is what he says.

Infact he say's applying torque later(after the bat head gets outside the path can add a couple of MPH.

That confirms my theory that late handle torque is optimal, early handle torque is NOT.

For those of you who want to see a good simulation of the top hand added late should watch both sims.

Thanks to Tom again for that.

Jim said:
"Rather, the hands stay cocked and the knob/hand unit change position, which in turn, changes the bathead position. This can be done without torquing."

Maybe it can be, but then you are not implementing the mechanics that are used by mlb hitters to be successful.

Feel is different for everyone, maybe it feels like torque between the hands, maybe it doen't.

Epstein doesn't emphasize it, but believes in it.

Mankin makes a good case and his golf club demo shows that it works to quicken the swing by being applied EARLY where not a lot of force can have a big effect on the trajectory.

What you feel resembling flipping the wrists later at contact is the same largely reactive force that is set up earlier as in golf. You don't fix a slice by manipulating your hands. You fix your swing plane. More inside out, more flip thorugh contact (like outside low in hitting). More slicing/over the top hitting around/not staying inside ball/clubhead crossing target line before contact/etc. and you compensate mainly automatically by a "block with less flip".

In hitting you don't want much flip (don't have to close clubface/so tend to avoid wrist roll/prefer more flat hands/aDduction) and get more extension/top hand involved (Mankin - "more tht") with more extension where torso turns less and handpath radius is longer to get sweetspot on ball.

Nyman also unwittingly proved that TORQUE was the prime factor in quickening the swing. This put him in a bind which he tried to wiggle out of by saying:

1 - it is better thought of as "back arm inertia", and

2- it could not be consciously or actively applied.

Whatever the name, it's the same thing whereby torquing force is applied early to the swing to enable early batspeed and late adjustability.

You can see it in the early ARC in Hiddengem's homer clip.

If you pull the bat knob and drag the bat or use any other mechanical force early without torque, this early arc will be foreshortened.

IN hitting unlike golf there is torque and there is shoulder tilt for adjustment and they are both applied before bathead "launch".

For Nyman simulations note that increased mass of back arm means more torque applied to handle by 'merrygoround effect" which quickens swing/sucks/transfers momentum out of torso more quickly. His setup only measures 2D forces once the shoulders turn. This does not rule out active arm action out of plane prior to shoulder action to produce the same torquing force before as well as during shoulder turn as an essential trajectory control factor.

see:

http://www.setpro.com/stuff/rotational_simulation5.wmv

and

http://www.setpro.com/stuff/rotational_simulation6.wmv

[callyjr]

CJ, very nice. Excellent lower and upper body sequence. I'd only be worried about one thing. I think it's too much counter rotation to get that amount of tip. I'd be worried about bringing the big heavy stick back around that far. The whip stick he's using is a little easier to move.

Might try a little more top hand cock instead of bottom hand push. I've found that this much bottom hand push to achieve that amount of tip tends to cause too much counter rotation, instead of just a little down-and-in load with a nice tip of the top hand.

Cab is a big strong dude and he doesn't get quite so turned.
This is MAX Load in both cases(IE next frame is elbow drop):

http://i12.tinypic.com/6b1es8o.jpg

I'd love to see a swing against live pitching coming in at 80 with the big stick.
Might reveal some issues you can't see with the whip stick.

Really, overall, great swing.......

thanks BM, we have been trying to take out the counter rotation. thats an Epstein traight, I taught him Epstein first and then we are trying to now add the tip. We will continue to work on it, I will also play more with the top hand cock and see how it looks and feels.

thanks for yor input, I agree with what your saying.

oh and the swiftsitck is just used for building the muscle memory, we will start using a real bat in a coupel more days, but I gotta get him to the cages as well.

Cally

[Stealth]

Keep an eye on that front leg. Look at the difference.........

[Kevin G]

That setpro stuff is good...thanks tom

Keep in mind the limits on this type of simulation.
I've lived through this in the golf swing, where simple hinge pins represent complex anatomical joints.

In this sim the top hand wrist is a pin that stays vertical to the swing plane throughout the motion

How does that square with the hand rotating to palm up where this pin should be turning until it is laying horizontal in the swing plane and unable to function as a swinging door hinge as it does the whole way in this sim?

[callyjr]

Keep an eye on that front leg. Look at the difference.........

He is still landing to foot open. He has been a little late on locking out at contact though. I'll keep an eye on it today.

[tom.guerry]

Board -

It's great to see you diving into these sims.

Now notice the sim you speak of was the one after Nyman had unwittingly showed that torque via reactive back arm inertia greatly QUICKENED the swing. None of Nyman's other sims shows a way to do this and he later becomes obsessed with the hook in the handpath which gives higher batspeed max, but much further out front/later - in other words, he focusses on LATE batspeed which forces EARLY adjustment/inability to read pitch longer ans setup optimal cntact zone. The sim also shows what a large effect this early force has.

Now Nyman proceeds to try to pull the wool over your eyes by "proving" that top hand torque messes up the swing, however, he limits the experiment to applying force in a direction consistent either with back arm EXTENSION or ARM INternal rotation. Neither of these joint motions applies the force consistent with the direction of the top hand/back arm inertia merrygoround force demonstrated that IS actually top hand relatred torque as he admitted in the previous sim.

What action could actually implement this torque model ?

External rotation of back arm which is EXACTLY what happens, synched external rotation of back arm and lead leg which is part of the running start BEFORE shoulders tilt or turn, WHILE shoulders and hands "stay back" and torso stretches/coils.

NYman makes conclusions as if:

1- he doesn't know that his model is limited to aspects of the swing in a 2D plane AFTER shoulder/torso turn starts and

2- as if he can't see what joint motions are underway in the swing and when

He is either ignorant or dishonest.

Which do you think it is ?



Tweena and Board -

The ONLY adequate way to carryover golf principles to hitting is by using the HARDY golf models. It is the ONLY adequate one. You should get his MASTER CLASS bok and go through it.

It provides the 2 basic mechanical/sequence models and defines terms in a way a discussion can be had.

The KEY is the torso action in relation to hips and shoulders, especially during the load/unload/overlap/starting down from top.

1 plane - hips and arms RESPOND to upper torso shoulders

2 plane - shoulders repsond to running start of arm swing and hip shift/turn


two extremely different patterns.



In hitting you add shoulder tilt and running start with handle torque and you minimize the arm link.


Using the Hardy template, you can then create an mlb model that works to organize analysis and learning.

You have to have a shared underlying set of models and terminology to discuss variations/options.

Otherwise there is not enough structure to have a meaningful conversation at the level of detail necessary.

Shoulder tilt and handle torque and shoulders and upper torso responding to hips and handle torque is how mlb hitters do it.

2 plane golfers get a running start with the hips and arms and the shoulders and upper torso respond.

there is no shoulder tilt or handle torque in golf becasue it is optimized for a still ball and other requirements that differ.

Hardy's stuff will help you regardless of your swing type. it allows you to fully explain/fix getting stuck.

It fully explains Hogan's swing evolution and "secrets".

A must have for any swing junky.

[Kevin G]

Board -

Tweena and Board -

The ONLY adequate way to carryover golf principles to hitting is by using the HARDY golf models. It is the ONLY adequate one. You should get his MASTER CLASS bok and go through it.

It provides the 2 basic mechanical/sequence models and defines terms in a way a discussion can be had.

The KEY is the torso action in relation to hips and shoulders, especially during the load/unload/overlap/starting down from top.

1 plane - hips and arms RESPOND to upper torso shoulders

2 plane - shoulders repsond to running start of arm swing and hip shift/turn


two extremely different patterns.



In hitting you add shoulder tilt and running start with handle torque and you minimize the arm link.


Using the Hardy template, you can then create an mlb model that works to organize analysis and learning.

You have to have a shared underlying set of models and terminology to discuss variations/options.

Otherwise there is not enough structure to have a meaningful conversation at the level of detail necessary.

Shoulder tilt and handle torque and shoulders and upper torso responding to hips and handle torque is how mlb hitters do it.

2 plane golfers get a running start with the hips and arms and the shoulders and upper torso respond.

there is no shoulder tilt or handle torque in golf becasue it is optimized for a still ball and other requirements that differ.

Hardy's stuff will help you regardless of your swing type. it allows you to fully explain/fix getting stuck.

It fully explains Hogan's swing evolution and "secrets".

A must have for any swing junky.


I beg to differ. THE DEFINATIVE WORK ON THE GOLF SWING IS "THE GOLFING MACHINE" BY HOMER KELLEY.

tom-"Using the Hardy template, you can then create an mlb model that works to organize analysis and learning."

No thanks, I'll use the Tweena template that starts with below scratch, tournament golf swing.

[tom.guerry]

tweena -

TGM is not as valuable as the Hardy approach in my opinion.

TGM tries to explain allpossible sequences as opposed to emphasizing pure vs hybrid patterns as Hardy does.

The way to make a consistent swing is to adhere to one of the 2 basic patterns as purely as possible.

This is more valuable than just explaining how any swing can work regardless of hw complicated it gets.

Homer Kelly was a smart guy though.

[Go Cardinals]

Good posts JB on the subject.

In my opinion there can be no torqueing action as described above until later in the swing. Any torque of this kind will cause the head to be pushed outward early which would give up bat lag too soon.

In golf we call this "club head throw away". Releasing, or worse yet, somehow applying muscular thrust/effort to throw the clubhead to catch up to the hands.

In my opinion the good player won't even be feeling the "tip" as it is athletic, and sets the table for him to be able to drop the back elbow quickly as the rotation begins without casting the bathead outward.

Again just my $.02

are you saying that you shouldn't get your hands back into that position like miguel cabrera does, i mean that you shouldn't feel that?